I have not studied dispensationalism. I know a few things, but not the depth of it. I know they support the distinction between Israel and the Church. You have on several occasions said, "but from a dispensational perspective." To me, this is saying interpretation of Scripture must align with dispensationalism. Maybe I am wrong about what you are saying. It must be from the Holy Spirit.
What I have studied the Church began with the people of Israel in Acts 2:41-47. There is only one Church and one body of Christ that includes both Israelites and Gentiles. God's grace provides salvation for Gentiles as well as Israel by faith in Jesus, the same gospel.
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Ephesians 3:5-6 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
We are fellow heirs of the kingdom of God, 2 Thessalonians 1:5. We will also reign with Christ here on earth, Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
These are the words of Paul, Acts 28:30-31 3 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
Your question: Why was there a need for Paul at all? Jealousy, Romans 11:11.
If I may, the armies that come from heaven when Jesus returns are angels, as mentioned in Matthew 13:39, Matthew 16:27, Matthew 24:31, Matthew 25:31, Matthew 26:53, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and others.
If the Church, the dead in Christ, are resurrected and those still living are changed and taken to heaven, raptured before Jesus returns. When Jesus does return, who are they in Revelation 20:4-6? The judgment seat of Christ includes some who are here during the time of the beast. That would make another resurrection.
A separate rapture before the second coming would mean two resurrections before the white throne judgment. I can't find that in Scripture. The Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ must be the same event.
Galatians 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Renewing the theme of Christ's knowledge of upcoming death on the cross; it is hard not to sympathize with the disciples who were "exceedingly sorry" ( Matt. 17:23) or something to that affect. For Christ to be able to even concentrate on anything else is remarkable at least looking at my own pitiful faith and willingness to die for Christ. This may be the best kept secret in the Gospels; we see it later on ( Galatians 2:20); but Christ was in some sense dying to self even though He had no sin; His life demonstrated total dependence on the Spirit. Doing this explains what only saying what the Father tells Him to say ( John 12:49) demonstrates. Jesus wasn't going to operate in His own strength; even though He was sinless it would involve deviating from His call and mission which would have been wrong. These actions would cause Him to be promoted in some ways as a man as the Father gave Him "all authority in heaven and earth" ( Matt. 28:18); along with other promises for His upcoming Millennial reign. As the Creator surely He had all authority in one sense; but in God's Divine plan He would have to come first as the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 before coming back in vengeance and flaming fire ( 2 Thessalonians 1:8). This illustrates how He as the first of the firstfruits came before the rest of the N.T. saints and how we; in turn can gain rewards through obedience; including martyrdom with specific crowns for this and other works of the Spirit in a believer's life and faith walk.
As a general statement we can also say that Christ was never half hearted about anything. Whether it was care for His mother during His crucifixion delegated to John; telling all the woman at the well had done; rebuking the religious establishment for hypocricy; overturning the moneychangers we see righteous love and indignation.
2 Thessalonians 1:10 - When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints. Glorification is a word that represents the very nature and substance of God. How do we give glory to God? It's when people see Christ in us.
2 Thessalonians 2:2 - That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
He presents to them the rapture and he says that you be not soon shaken in mind. The word mind is the word NOUS, which is a Greek word that describes the perceptive processes of the mind. He says that you soon not be shaken in mind, or be troubled, and notice these three things: neither through spirit, and that is somebody coming along and saying that some spirit gave them a "revelation".
Nor through a word, nor through a letter. He's addressing this letter problem. He says nor through a letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. The oldest manuscripts say the day of the Lord, not day of Christ. So, you might take note of that. We are talking about the day of the Lord.
1 Thessalonians gave Instruction of Paul on the Rapture of the Church. In 2 Thessalonians, we are given the Instruction of Paul on the Second Coming of Christ
(2 Thessalonians Part 1): The Instruction of Paul on the Second Coming of Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:3 - We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith growth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
He says we are bound, and that's the Greek word OPHEILOMEN that means to be indebted. We are indebted to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, and the word meet is the word worthy, because of two reasons:
Because your faith grows exceedingly, and this is the only place in the New Testament where this Greek word is found "grows exceedingly." That means that their growth was very unusual. It was not normal. That your faith grows exceedingly, and secondly: the charity, and that's the word AGAPE love, of every one of you all toward each other is abounding, or increasing;
The two elements of the believer's life that Paul marked and expressed as being the genuine evidence of a person's salvation, is that they have faith and trust towards Christ, and love for the people of God.
2 Thessalonians 1:4 - So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
The word glory is the word boast. So that we ourselves, we boast in you in the churches of God for your patience, and that's the word HUPOMENO which means to remain under, and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you are enduring:
He says that it's your remaining under and your faith. You remain under your circumstances trusting the Lord, so therefore we are using you for an example. And you do this in all your persecutions and tribulations that you are presently enduring. They didn't back down. They remained under to trust the Lord.
The only angels on earth and the universe are the fallen angels. The Holy Angels are in the Third Heaven .
Galatians 1:8
But though we, or anangelfrom heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Satan was a fallen angel and is still around.
2 Corinthians 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into anangeloflight.
We should not worship angels that are fallen.
Colossians 2:18
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping ofangels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
The Holy Angeles are in Heaven waiting for the descending of the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:7
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mightyangels,
Every Angel in the Bible has a male name, I don't think there's a female Angel .
We have the Holy Spirit of God and the Word of Truth here on earth.
Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us withgroanings which cannot be uttered.
Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard thewordof truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with thatholySpirit of promise,
May we spread the gospel of grace .
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 may we believe the gospel for Salvation
Hi Fuji. There is some division in the Christian camp about the ultimate end of those who die rejecting Christ's Gospel, i.e. whether they simply go to the grave & are no more, or, that there will be a resurrection from the dead & under judgement to face God's Wrath. And like all doctrines & teachings we find throughout the Bible, we need to consider all references to the subject matter & not focus on a single verse or two to form a judgement.
Therefore, if we had only John 3:16 to understand the afterlife (whether it exists or not), then we could well believe that 'perish' clearly means a complete cessation of life, as in someone (the body) who perishes in a house fire or perishes by drowning. But in relation to the Scriptures, we know that God has given us a spirit & that spirit is identifies who we are, given life by God, with an outer covering (a body) to house it, yet the spirit can never perish (die). Genesis 2:7; Zechariah 12:1; Job 32:8; 1 Corinthians 2:11; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; Ecclesiastes 3:21; Ecclesiastes 12:7.
And then we have the Judgement of God upon all, where those who belong in God's family, living a life consecrated to Him, are eternally secure from damnation, whereas all unbelievers (and their spirits can never be destroyed), suffer under God's condemnation. If only death was our final punishment for rejecting Christ, then we all still have to die as those in sinful, corrupt bodies; none can escape. This is a defective Gospel as most would prefer to cease to exist without any punishment & live life to the full, not answerable to God. But Christ's Sacrifice was to redeem lost sinful souls, not from death, but from God's eternal Punishment. Revelation 20:15; Revelation 21:8; Matthew 10:28; Matthew 13:49,50; Matthew 25:41,46; Mark 9:43; Luke 16:19-31; 2 Thessalonians 1:8,9.
Just a few Scriptures to show the Truth of an Eternal suffering in Hell & not simply disappearing forever in the grave. Every spirit (of man) is accountable to God.
Mark 9:43-48 - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (Read More...)
Matthew 13:50 - And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Revelation 20:14 - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 - Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Psalms 145:20 - The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
Matthew 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Hebrews 10:26-31 - For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (Read More...)
Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Luke 16:19-31 - There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: (Read More...)
Luke 12:5 - But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him
Thank you, Jesus shamed the leaders of Jerusalem about traditions, Matthew 15:3 and we are told in Colossians 2:8. My understanding is when we believe in our heart that Jesus is the Son of God and the only way to salvation we are justified by God's grace, Romans 3:24 and being baptized is being obedient to God's word, being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: We then start the road to sanctification by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, Titus 3:5.
Jesus Christ has done everything necessary for our salvation and all we do we do in is name including being baptized, Colossians 3:17. He paid the penalty that our sins deserved by His sacrificial death on the cross. His death satisfied God's justice and turned away His wrath from us. God calls us but we must answer we must believe and be obedient to Him to be chosen, Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
When we are baptized in the Name of Jesus we have put on Christ, Galatians 3:27. Being baptized is obedience, Ephesians 2:102 Thessalonians 1:8, every believer who has opportunity will be baptized in obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ. Baptism is the result of salvation, not the means to it.
Our obedience strengthens our faith, obedience shows our love for God, and our obedience to God's word is essential and it is not works. Those who are obedient are imitators of Christ and are willingly submitting to the authority, His will, and the word of God.
c. "How have we been justified? Christ has paid the full penalty, eternal DEATH for the sins of those He is saving by being perfectly faithful in taking upon Himself all of the sins of each of His Elect". John 3:16 states that God so loved the world (not just the Elect), that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish". Here, I understand that God's Love extends to both the Elect & non-Elect (the world), but of those in the World who place their trust in Him (proving they're the Elect of God), will not go the way of eternal damnation, but of eternal life.
d. Did Christ die "an eternal death" for us? Not sure if you meant that Christ died & saved us from the eternal death that we were destined for.
Part 4: you referred to the Galatians' passages. The reason for Paul's reference to the Law, was because of the Judaizers (Jewish Christians - Galatians 1:7) who taught those in the Galatia region, that obedience to the Law was necessary (Works) for salvation & Paul's Gospel was defective (i.e. justification by faith alone plus nothing, not even the Mosaic Law).
So from here we begin to separate in our understanding of this Doctrine of Salvation. You have asked the question, "So what is a good WORK? Are our BELIEF, our FAITH, our REPENTENCE good WORKS? The best definition of a "good WORK", I believe, is "any obedience to the COMMANDMENTS of God, the LAW of God". Of course you believe that not only obedience to the Law of God is a 'Good Work', but also belief, faith, & repentance are. 2 Thessalonians 1:11 does not speak of Faith as a work towards salvation, but of having Faith that works in the believer's life & Paul prayed 'for a powerful faith in them'.
Ephesians 2:8,9 is actually a great example of a God-given Faith in Salvation, which is not included in a works-based salvation. Faith is God's Gift to believe - leading to salvation.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the WORKS of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the WORKS of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3:1,2 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the WORKS OF THE LAW, or by the hearing of faith{Christ's faith}?
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the WORKS OF THE LAW are under the CURSE: for it is written, CURSED is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
In these verses God is making it crystal clear that if we are following a gospel that is conditioned upon our good WORKS, we are CURSED.
So what is a good WORK? Are our BELIEF, our FAITH, our REPENTENCE good WORKS? The best definition of a "good WORK", I believe, is "any obedience to the COMMANDMENTS of God, the LAW of God". Are we not COMMANDED to Believe and to have FAITH in Christ; are these not "gifts" of God and part and parcel of Salvation?
2 Thessalonians 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the WORK OF FAITH with power:
Ephesians 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Phil 2:12,13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is GOD WHICH WORKETH in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Our Faith, Belief, Repentance are WORKS and a RESULT and EVIDENCE of, not REQUIREMENTS for, Salvation.
Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
This seems pretty clear to me and hard to misunderstand it unless someone tries to twist it.
If someone doesn't believe punishment is eternal then maybe someone should likewise question whether heaven is eternal, because this verse states them both as being everlasting / eternal.
The Bible says the soul will die, the 2nd death, perish, etc. But how do you know that's not the eternal part, or how can you prove that God allows someone to actually suffer without a soul, etc. Basically people are just speculating, and its not going to get very far.
But perhaps we can all agree that hell is bad and heaven is good? Hell is punishment and something to be avoided, and we need Jesus to avoid it. John 3:16 says this.
Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
You can safely say some will be tormented day and night for ever and ever, because that's literally what this verse says.
Mark 9:43-48 - unquenching fire- you can safely say that hell isn't immediately going away, either. It's likely in full operation.
Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Daniel 12:1-2 ever lasting life vs ever lasting contempt
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 everlasting destruction. This might debunk the human reasoning idea that death or being destroyed must only happen in a short timeframe. This says it can happen 'ever lasting' which seems long term or eternal. So, this verse now explains all the other verses where it makes sense.
Revelation 14:11 smoke of their torment for ever and ever. That doesn't sound immediate or short term to me, but forever.
Where in the bible does it say that the soul will cease to exist? If anyone ceases to exist when they die, can you please answer these questions. I will be the student here, so you have my attention. If you choose to answer these things, I do thank you ahead of time.
In Matthew 25:46, Is this not describing two classes of people, those who received Christ and belong to Him, and those who have rejected Him? If those who reject Him die and cease to exist, how can they go away into eternal punishment if they do not exist?
Revelation 14:11 says that the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night. How can this be for someone that does not exist?
Hebrews 9:27 tells us that it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment. How can anyone who dies and ceases to exist be judged since this judgment comes (after) death?
Revelation 21:8 identifies a class of individuals who will end up in the lake of fire, and it also mentions that this is the second death. If they went through the first death and ceased to exist, how can they experience a second death if they do not exist?
2 Thessalonians 1:9 says that they will suffer the punishment of (eternal destruction), away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might. How is ceasing to exist considered suffering?
Jema, since Romans 6:23 has been quoted which says that the wages of sin is death, how do you get cease to exist out of this word death when the Greek word used (Thanatos) means separation, not cessation of life? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say that at death, there is a separation from our physical body since this is what the word death means?
Revelation 14:10 talks about being tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. Who is this for and how long will this torment last?
I have more questions to follow. Thank you for your time.
the "clouds" that is referred to in Rev.1:7, I am beginning to think it is an army/cavalry like I 1st suggested.
( Revelation 1:7) "Behold, he ((cometh WITH clouds)); and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."
( Zephaniah 1:14-15 KJV) "That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of ((clouds)) and thick darkness,"
( 2 Thessalonians 1:7) "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven ((WITH his mighty angels)),"
( Revelation 19:14 KJV) "And the ((armies)) which were in heaven followed him upon ((white horses)), clothed in fine linen, white and clean."
I'm sorry Rainwalker, the belief in a literal Hell & a literal eternal torment for those who have rejected God & His Christ is not an idea from the dark ages nor from the Vatican - this is Scripture & plenty of them to support it. It's how one chooses to read, understand & accept the teachings from the Word that is in question - the Word does not change.
Look at Daniel 12:1,2; Matthew 18:9; Matthew 25:31-46; Mark 9:42-48; 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10; Jude 1:7; Revelation 14:9-11; Revelation 20:10,14,15. These do not speak of an annihilation, but of torment. And what were "their works"? Works of sinful lives, of self-glorification, of being God-haters & Christ-rejecters. If we remove the eternal suffering of Hell, we've lost a great part of our Gospel message, i.e. we not only won't have a Gospel to preach, we won't even need to preach the Gospel. Jude 1:23, "And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."
If the preacher hasn't got the awful image before him of souls for whom Christ died, going into an eternity of torment, then that preacher is preaching a watered down Gospel, one that tickles the mind but doesn't wrench the heart - a Gospel that only requires a glib acceptance of a lowly Jesus but not weeping in sorrow for sin's wretchedness before an Holy God. Christ didn't give up His Life only to bring sinners into Heaven, but to save them from His Father's Judgement sending them to an eternity of suffering. This is why the cost of Salvation had to be so great - it took the Son of God to come between an Holy God & a hell-deserved, hell-bound sinner. We all have to die one day - but through Christ, not all have to be consigned to Hell.
Thanks Tammy. Yes 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 is very important. You're correct that Paul gives them insight when the Day of Christ will begin. The Thessalonians feared that it had already begun, being troubled by false teachers, that they were in it already (because of 2 Thessalonians 1:4) & the Lord had not yet come (even as Paul had earlier spoken to them about "these things" (v5)). So again, Paul had to rehearse these matters with them to assure & comfort them to pay heed to him & not others, that they had not missed out on Christ's coming, "and by our gathering together unto him".
That there has to first be a departure from the faith (an apostasy); I understand this to be the general deterioration within the Church (as we even see now with the preaching of error & the Church, which ought to be seen as the Light & Body of Christ, has become in many places, a haven for Satan to have his way & lead many devout earnest people happily into hell's pit). And after this will be the revelation of the anti-Christ.
Is it at this point (mid-trib) that you believe the world, including the Church will go into the Great Tribulation & come under the anti-Christ? Or, could it be that this is at the very beginning of the Day of Christ, where the Great Tribulation is about to begin but first there will be the "falling away & the revelation of the man of sin"? If, as I believe, the Gt. Tribulation is the tribulation from God (His Wrath & not man's daily tribulations), then I understand Paul stating to the believers there, 'the rapture will happen first at the introduction of the man of sin & then God's Wrath - so don't be misled that that day has already started.'
Before the Wrath (the Great Tribulation) must come the rapture - the anti-Christ is revealed because God has allowed it by removing His Restrainer - and if His Wrath is to be poured out on unbelievers, where is His Church, the one which was not appointed to receive His Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:9)?
Jimbob you do not realize it but you are in essence saying that the clouds and the air and wind are the gifts of God....But its only the H.G. that is the gift of God....But clouds/Air and wind is just simbolic language for folks that have that living water the H.G. The spirit.. the gift of God.. 2 Thessalonians 1:10... He is gonna be admired and Glorified in his saints simply b/c he comes in his saints....Not literal clouds....As the gift of God is the H.G....You keep saying we will meet him in the AIR...Buts not true, Air is just symbolic language for the Spirit the gift of the H.G...folks that live right here on this earth....Ya gotta realize that its only the H.G. that is the Kingdom of God....We cannot meet him in literal AIR...We can only meet him in
the spirit the gift of the H.G. is spirit not literal AIR OR WIND....Clouds are just symbolic for folks that have that living water the H.G. the Kingdom of God....But you keep making all these derogatory remarks of me not understanding that i am right...This Rev.11:15 kills any and all physical literal Rapture doctrine....As the Kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our lord and his Christ and he shall reign forever and ever...Right here on this earth...Thus there is no physical Rapture...We are caught away but only in the spirit the gift of H.G...As our God is spirit....Not AIR...Yes there are some scriptures that say that GOD is coming in the clouds...But the clouds are symbolic for folks that have the H.G the Kingdom of God....Thats y the sower of that good seed wants to sow his precious seed in our hearts....That the Kingdom might be right here on this EARTH....Defeating satan who is the god of this earth at this present time...k Gbu
I appreciate the ongoing discussion Jimbob we're having as very few are prepared to persevere in it. Yes, I did mention 'imminency & suddenness', but also mentioned 'readiness' ("In the NT, the command was for readiness"). We will have to leave that one, as after my revisiting those passages because of your comment, I still see that all three as adverbs are in use or implied, including, 'watchfulness'. We'll have to leave those Scriptures for other readers to examine.
Matthew 24:29-31. I read that as the Second Coming of Christ after the Great Tribulation days & that Jesus' rule upon the Earth will be with his elect living on the Earth at that time. It does not speak of those who will be instantly caught up to be with Christ (i.e. without the gathering of them together by the angels) & to be with Christ forever. Here, in the Rapture, those of the living & dead believers will be "changed" ( 1 Corinthians 15:52), i.e. physically reconstituted ("putting on incorruption") to be with Christ in the heavenlies, whereas this isn't a requirement for those 'of the elect' on the Earth who are gathered & relocated to Jerusalem (presumably).
Revelation 20:4-6 speaks of the vision that John received of all those who had laid down their lives for Christ. Not only those who came to believe in the Truth & resisted the Anti-Christ during his reign, but the multitudes since the Church's inception that have remained faithful to the Lord & willingly went to their deaths. Yes, we can suffer now (in tribulation), even as those who went before us, but this is part & parcel of following Christ ( John 16:33); including Romans 8:16-18; Philippians 1:29; 2 Thessalonians 1:4,5; 2 Timothy 2:11,12; etc (as you shared). I read this as the 'common' tribulation (trials of faith) that believers can experience, but not of the Great Tribulation (at the Day of the Lord).
Praise God for that great testimony Tyler1222. It is the Lord Himself Who can minister to us where all our pain & ignorance lie - even dealing with those areas where modern medicine cannot reach. As Malachi 4:2 declares: "...unto you that fear my name (the LORD's Name) shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings...". Oh that we might experience the Son's special healing in every area of our lives, to His praise & Glory. 2 Thessalonians 1:11,12.
Messianic and prophetic in nature; Psalm 68 is full of references to the destruction of the armies of the earth and the restoration of Israel and God's Covenant people along with the world at large eventually coming to worship the true and living God.
2 Thessalonians 1:8 discuss the Lord returning in vengeance with flaming fire; and this verse is hardly isolated in the scriptures; as we see finally occurring in Revelation 19. That pretty much sums up the first 2 verses of this Psalm.
The rest of the first half of the Psalm through verse 17 focuses on the deliverance of God; with the personal view of families (widows and fatherless) being represented in verse 5 and 6; where captives are also said to be released. These verses and their themes are repeated in Isaiah 42 as well as Isaiah 49. Taken literally; it would seem that there will be a final Exodus in volving children especially; which occurs during the Tribulation for slave purposes which will end abruptly at the return of the Lord. There will clearly be many widows of those who survive until the Millennium which will have children returned in some cases by royalty; who will basically bow down in the dust and act as foster parents. Verse 18 seems to bolser this idea with worship of the Lord in the Temple which finally fulfills its role to be "a place of prayer for all nations" ( Isaiah 56:7 also quoted by Jesus in the N.T. Gospels). Even MORE support is given in verses 29-32 for this concept.
These verses and many others sadly are often taken as symbolic language which takes much of the impact out of the passages. There needs; of course to be some latitude when we observe symbolism within a text of literal descriptions as to interpretation but hopefully the joy and awe of God's Providence won't be unnecessarily watered down because it seems to go against some sort of specific doctrinal stance. Let us be as Bereans searching the Scriptures daily and dividing rightly.
While you didn't directly address the questions, your chosen response indicates you might believe the New Testament isn't literal and are just parables to you, is that correct? You quoted the old testament suggesting that you might think that's literal, however. Do you mind sharing how you came to this belief?
For the benefit of anyone else reading this there are plenty of verses in the Bible about the literal hell:
Luke 12:5 - But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Matthew 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 - Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Matthew 13:50 - And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mark 9:43-48 - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
etc
Do you believe Jesus literally is Lord and literally died on the cross for you?
This chapter gets into the trials and tribulations of the saints (v. 4); and the subsequent judgment of God in verse 6. One can't help but wonder how great the accumulated sins from the dawn of the church age until now is; and how it factors into wrath once it finally transpires.
(see Rev. 18:5).
Verses 7 through 10 make it clear that indeed the return of Christ; destruction of enemies (in Armageddon and judgment in hell); as well as our promotion ruling and reigning on earth in the Millennial period (verse 10) factors in. There are 3 passages that state every knee shall bow and every tongue confess ( Isaiah 45:23; Philippians 2:10 and Romans 14:11).
We are not to seek vengeance ( Romans 12:19). However; we are doing God no favors by attempting to dampen down a character attribute that He has; in this case rewarding His saints and punishing the wicked. Perhaps those who being persecuted are the best examples of those who understand the need for Divine justice. The saints under the throne in Revelation certainly aren't scolded for asking "how long" ( Rev. 6:9); with response in verses 10-11. With Paul and the churches under heavy persecution at this time this was a necessary statement; and the frequent reminder to endure until the end. In order to warn others of the wrath to come; we certainly must believe in eternal judgment and a literal hell.
If we think people simply cease to exist (or are annihilated) it dumbs down the message and doesn't help anyone to have full conviction of sin ( John 16:8-11).
In regards to James Davis' query on the city of our Father in OT. The only description provided can be found in Ezekial and mainly deals with the new Temple that will be there. The actual description of the city (New Jerusalem) can be found in Revelation.
Hi "Ruth" all answer is right, a personal experience here, i did not know where i stood. I wandered here and there, and unfortunately i also followed the spirit of the times in this world, the antichrist.
Because since we that time still where "children", we have every right not to know everything, every right to ask, explore, learn and so on. We still do Everyday. 2 Thessalonians 1:12Acts 8:16
But when the Spirit in us awakens, we will no longer go around making mistakes. The Holy Spirit helps us if we let Him lead us where we do belongs. Namely with God in our Spirit where we can find strength, courage and forgiveness Spirit and the Spirit of love. And everything else good is there.
That Spirit makes us living Sources who speak right and do right because we believe in Jesus Christ Is the Son of God. Nor will the Holy Spirit ever stop and give us words in our mouths to preach about Jesus Christ. John 7:38
So when i walked around there in the dark before God found me. I did not have this Source because i was not filled with the Holy Spirit.
But here we come to something central and important. All God gives us is Grace over Grace. Because when i look back on my life without Him and my life with Him, i understand that i have been under Grace because He has been with me from the first day of my life.
Because when we are lost or confused, we can not even say the Lord Jesus name. Only if we are in the Holy Spirit can we say that.
1 Corinthians 12:3
At this stage i am also comforted since He has been so gracious to me. I want to believe that He is just as gracious with everyone else. When we can not say Jesus Christ from our mouths if we are not in the Holy Spirit. So i hear people say Jesus Christ with their mouths, is not it a confession in a way? Therefore, i attribute these people to the Lord. And He saves them to Himself after His will, i'm moving on. Hallelujah the Lord is near. Acts 8-9 Chapter. God bless us in Jesus Christ.
Charity and it a manifestation of love and not love itself. Jesus said when you do unto one of the lest of these you do it unto me. 1 Corinthians 13:13
"And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."
1 Corinthians 16:14
"Let all your things be done with charity."
Colossians 3:14
"And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness."
2 Thessalonians 1:3 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
1 Peter 4:8
"And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins."
Like Mishael said there are many opinions on this and your question is there any scriptural support for pre-tribulation I would have to say no. God has not promised us to be spared tribulation, it is pretty much the opposite, John 16:33Acts 14:222 Thessalonians 1:4. The Great tribulation and the wrath of God is two different things. God will spare us his wrath, 1 Thessalonians 5:9 His wrath will be on the unrighteous, Romans 1:18.
People looking to be raptured and taken to heaven before the beast shows up and the persecution worldwide starts will not be prepared and this may cause the great falling away. Some have taken the seventh week from Daniel and other scriptures to paint a beautiful picture that is not scriptural. Millions of dollars from movies, books, tv preachers have been made on this theory that started in the 1700s
Jesus told us in Matthew 24:29-31Mark 13:24-27 it will be after the tribulation. There is more but this should answer your question, if we are living when it starts, we will go through it, Matthew 10:22. We must do what Jesus told the disciples when they asked him about the end. The first thing He said was Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
There will be a great temptation coming, and we must be strong in our faith in His word, even unto death, because we have this promise. Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Satan always starts with an if. Satan then offers something in exchange.. Satan has not improved his method ,it has worked time and time again for him. We see that strong delusion in or government today. We are not to be ignorant about what is taking place. It will end with the coming of Jesus.
English Sacha. Is that what you have gleaned from what I addressed to Earl? You've made some assumptions that clearly are emotive rather than what I had written or is revealed in the Bible. We're discussing the fact of God's Judgement to all who are not saved through Jesus Christ.
How God decides who are worthy of judgement (whether some primitive soul or those with mental shortcomings, etc), is God's matter, not mine nor yours. If you believe this God of Love is incapable of judging sinners in such a manner, then you would need to consider the operation of God throughout Scriptures - i.e. He is indeed a God of Love but also a God of Justice. We can often be conditioned by the world & what we perceive to be right, to think of such a justice system as normal, as true. Whereas God's Justice always demands the correct penalty - and unfortunately, simply losing one's life in death (which happens to us all) is just one part of that justice. The wages of sin might indeed be death, but the wages for the rejection of God & His offer of salvation are far greater ( Daniel 12:1,2; Matthew 18:7-9; Matthew 25:31-46; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9; Jude 1:6,7; Revelation 14:9-11; Revelation 20:10-15). And sister GiGi has also given a very apt response to you.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 - Portion of An Excellent Article: "The Day Of The LORD!
The Scriptures have much toSay about 'theDay ofThe LORD,' but precisely whatisTheDay ofThe LORD?
Generally speaking, of course, it refers to the time when the day of man, or "the timesof the Gentiles," will be brought to an end, and "The LORD AloneShallBeExalted"
(Isaiah2:11,17; Isa 2:11; Isa 2:17; Isa 2:11, 17). But will it include more than the actual Return andReign of CHRIST?
Will it include the prophesied tribulation period, during whichGod will bring Gentilerule to an end? We believe it will.
One pastor who teaches that the Body of CHRIST will go through the tribulation andthat its Rapture to be with CHRIST will followthe tribulation, writes:
'TheDay ofThe LORD follows the tribulation and it is the day of the LORD's wrath upon those who 'know not God and obey not TheGospel of ourLORD JESUSCHRIST' ( 2 Thessalonians 1:8). It comes as 'a thief in thenight,' which is not so with the tribulation.'
But this interpretation does not take into account ALLThatIs SaidIn Scripture about'TheDay ofThe LORD' - and contradicts some of it."...
...No, the Rapture of the Body of CHRIST to be With HIM will not follow the tribulation; it will precede it. Thus the Apostle Paul, after writing about the Rapture of the Body in 1 Thessalonians 4, continues in Chapter 5 with The Word "But," to show the disrelation of God's prophesied 'times and seasons' and 'The Day of The LORD,' From That Blessed Day {Of CHRIST 2 Th 2:2, et al}, for which every believer should be "looking, waiting, And watching!"...
(Full Article: "The Day of the Lord -- What Is It?" - by Pastor Cornelius R. Stam)
Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
I have not studied dispensationalism. I know a few things, but not the depth of it. I know they support the distinction between Israel and the Church. You have on several occasions said, "but from a dispensational perspective." To me, this is saying interpretation of Scripture must align with dispensationalism. Maybe I am wrong about what you are saying. It must be from the Holy Spirit.
What I have studied the Church began with the people of Israel in Acts 2:41-47. There is only one Church and one body of Christ that includes both Israelites and Gentiles. God's grace provides salvation for Gentiles as well as Israel by faith in Jesus, the same gospel.
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Ephesians 3:5-6 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
We are fellow heirs of the kingdom of God, 2 Thessalonians 1:5. We will also reign with Christ here on earth, Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
These are the words of Paul, Acts 28:30-31 3 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
Your question: Why was there a need for Paul at all? Jealousy, Romans 11:11.
God bless,
RLW
If I may, the armies that come from heaven when Jesus returns are angels, as mentioned in Matthew 13:39, Matthew 16:27, Matthew 24:31, Matthew 25:31, Matthew 26:53, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and others.
If the Church, the dead in Christ, are resurrected and those still living are changed and taken to heaven, raptured before Jesus returns. When Jesus does return, who are they in Revelation 20:4-6? The judgment seat of Christ includes some who are here during the time of the beast. That would make another resurrection.
A separate rapture before the second coming would mean two resurrections before the white throne judgment. I can't find that in Scripture. The Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ must be the same event.
God bless,
RLW
Galatians 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Renewing the theme of Christ's knowledge of upcoming death on the cross; it is hard not to sympathize with the disciples who were "exceedingly sorry" ( Matt. 17:23) or something to that affect. For Christ to be able to even concentrate on anything else is remarkable at least looking at my own pitiful faith and willingness to die for Christ. This may be the best kept secret in the Gospels; we see it later on ( Galatians 2:20); but Christ was in some sense dying to self even though He had no sin; His life demonstrated total dependence on the Spirit. Doing this explains what only saying what the Father tells Him to say ( John 12:49) demonstrates. Jesus wasn't going to operate in His own strength; even though He was sinless it would involve deviating from His call and mission which would have been wrong. These actions would cause Him to be promoted in some ways as a man as the Father gave Him "all authority in heaven and earth" ( Matt. 28:18); along with other promises for His upcoming Millennial reign. As the Creator surely He had all authority in one sense; but in God's Divine plan He would have to come first as the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 before coming back in vengeance and flaming fire ( 2 Thessalonians 1:8). This illustrates how He as the first of the firstfruits came before the rest of the N.T. saints and how we; in turn can gain rewards through obedience; including martyrdom with specific crowns for this and other works of the Spirit in a believer's life and faith walk.
As a general statement we can also say that Christ was never half hearted about anything. Whether it was care for His mother during His crucifixion delegated to John; telling all the woman at the well had done; rebuking the religious establishment for hypocricy; overturning the moneychangers we see righteous love and indignation.
2 Thessalonians 1:10 - When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints. Glorification is a word that represents the very nature and substance of God. How do we give glory to God? It's when people see Christ in us.
2 Thessalonians 2:2 - That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
He presents to them the rapture and he says that you be not soon shaken in mind. The word mind is the word NOUS, which is a Greek word that describes the perceptive processes of the mind. He says that you soon not be shaken in mind, or be troubled, and notice these three things: neither through spirit, and that is somebody coming along and saying that some spirit gave them a "revelation".
Nor through a word, nor through a letter. He's addressing this letter problem. He says nor through a letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. The oldest manuscripts say the day of the Lord, not day of Christ. So, you might take note of that. We are talking about the day of the Lord.
1 Thessalonians gave Instruction of Paul on the Rapture of the Church. In 2 Thessalonians, we are given the Instruction of Paul on the Second Coming of Christ
(2 Thessalonians Part 1): The Instruction of Paul on the Second Coming of Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:3 - We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith growth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
He says we are bound, and that's the Greek word OPHEILOMEN that means to be indebted. We are indebted to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, and the word meet is the word worthy, because of two reasons:
Because your faith grows exceedingly, and this is the only place in the New Testament where this Greek word is found "grows exceedingly." That means that their growth was very unusual. It was not normal. That your faith grows exceedingly, and secondly: the charity, and that's the word AGAPE love, of every one of you all toward each other is abounding, or increasing;
The two elements of the believer's life that Paul marked and expressed as being the genuine evidence of a person's salvation, is that they have faith and trust towards Christ, and love for the people of God.
2 Thessalonians 1:4 - So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
The word glory is the word boast. So that we ourselves, we boast in you in the churches of God for your patience, and that's the word HUPOMENO which means to remain under, and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you are enduring:
He says that it's your remaining under and your faith. You remain under your circumstances trusting the Lord, so therefore we are using you for an example. And you do this in all your persecutions and tribulations that you are presently enduring. They didn't back down. They remained under to trust the Lord.
Galatians 1:8
But though we, or anangelfrom heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Satan was a fallen angel and is still around.
2 Corinthians 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into anangeloflight.
We should not worship angels that are fallen.
Colossians 2:18
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping ofangels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
The Holy Angeles are in Heaven waiting for the descending of the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:7
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mightyangels,
Every Angel in the Bible has a male name, I don't think there's a female Angel .
We have the Holy Spirit of God and the Word of Truth here on earth.
Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us withgroanings which cannot be uttered.
Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard thewordof truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with thatholySpirit of promise,
May we spread the gospel of grace .
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 may we believe the gospel for Salvation
Therefore, if we had only John 3:16 to understand the afterlife (whether it exists or not), then we could well believe that 'perish' clearly means a complete cessation of life, as in someone (the body) who perishes in a house fire or perishes by drowning. But in relation to the Scriptures, we know that God has given us a spirit & that spirit is identifies who we are, given life by God, with an outer covering (a body) to house it, yet the spirit can never perish (die). Genesis 2:7; Zechariah 12:1; Job 32:8; 1 Corinthians 2:11; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; Ecclesiastes 3:21; Ecclesiastes 12:7.
And then we have the Judgement of God upon all, where those who belong in God's family, living a life consecrated to Him, are eternally secure from damnation, whereas all unbelievers (and their spirits can never be destroyed), suffer under God's condemnation. If only death was our final punishment for rejecting Christ, then we all still have to die as those in sinful, corrupt bodies; none can escape. This is a defective Gospel as most would prefer to cease to exist without any punishment & live life to the full, not answerable to God. But Christ's Sacrifice was to redeem lost sinful souls, not from death, but from God's eternal Punishment. Revelation 20:15; Revelation 21:8; Matthew 10:28; Matthew 13:49,50; Matthew 25:41,46; Mark 9:43; Luke 16:19-31; 2 Thessalonians 1:8,9.
Just a few Scriptures to show the Truth of an Eternal suffering in Hell & not simply disappearing forever in the grave. Every spirit (of man) is accountable to God.
Matthew 13:50 - And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Revelation 20:14 - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 - Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Psalms 145:20 - The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
Matthew 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Hebrews 10:26-31 - For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (Read More...)
Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Luke 16:19-31 - There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: (Read More...)
Luke 12:5 - But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him
COME LORD JESUS
Thank you, Jesus shamed the leaders of Jerusalem about traditions, Matthew 15:3 and we are told in Colossians 2:8. My understanding is when we believe in our heart that Jesus is the Son of God and the only way to salvation we are justified by God's grace, Romans 3:24 and being baptized is being obedient to God's word, being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: We then start the road to sanctification by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, Titus 3:5.
Jesus Christ has done everything necessary for our salvation and all we do we do in is name including being baptized, Colossians 3:17. He paid the penalty that our sins deserved by His sacrificial death on the cross. His death satisfied God's justice and turned away His wrath from us. God calls us but we must answer we must believe and be obedient to Him to be chosen, Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
When we are baptized in the Name of Jesus we have put on Christ, Galatians 3:27. Being baptized is obedience, Ephesians 2:10 2 Thessalonians 1:8, every believer who has opportunity will be baptized in obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ. Baptism is the result of salvation, not the means to it.
Our obedience strengthens our faith, obedience shows our love for God, and our obedience to God's word is essential and it is not works. Those who are obedient are imitators of Christ and are willingly submitting to the authority, His will, and the word of God.
God bless,
RLW
c. "How have we been justified? Christ has paid the full penalty, eternal DEATH for the sins of those He is saving by being perfectly faithful in taking upon Himself all of the sins of each of His Elect". John 3:16 states that God so loved the world (not just the Elect), that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish". Here, I understand that God's Love extends to both the Elect & non-Elect (the world), but of those in the World who place their trust in Him (proving they're the Elect of God), will not go the way of eternal damnation, but of eternal life.
d. Did Christ die "an eternal death" for us? Not sure if you meant that Christ died & saved us from the eternal death that we were destined for.
Part 4: you referred to the Galatians' passages. The reason for Paul's reference to the Law, was because of the Judaizers (Jewish Christians - Galatians 1:7) who taught those in the Galatia region, that obedience to the Law was necessary (Works) for salvation & Paul's Gospel was defective (i.e. justification by faith alone plus nothing, not even the Mosaic Law).
So from here we begin to separate in our understanding of this Doctrine of Salvation. You have asked the question, "So what is a good WORK? Are our BELIEF, our FAITH, our REPENTENCE good WORKS? The best definition of a "good WORK", I believe, is "any obedience to the COMMANDMENTS of God, the LAW of God". Of course you believe that not only obedience to the Law of God is a 'Good Work', but also belief, faith, & repentance are. 2 Thessalonians 1:11 does not speak of Faith as a work towards salvation, but of having Faith that works in the believer's life & Paul prayed 'for a powerful faith in them'.
Ephesians 2:8,9 is actually a great example of a God-given Faith in Salvation, which is not included in a works-based salvation. Faith is God's Gift to believe - leading to salvation.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the WORKS of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the WORKS of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3:1,2 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the WORKS OF THE LAW, or by the hearing of faith{Christ's faith}?
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the WORKS OF THE LAW are under the CURSE: for it is written, CURSED is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
In these verses God is making it crystal clear that if we are following a gospel that is conditioned upon our good WORKS, we are CURSED.
So what is a good WORK? Are our BELIEF, our FAITH, our REPENTENCE good WORKS? The best definition of a "good WORK", I believe, is "any obedience to the COMMANDMENTS of God, the LAW of God". Are we not COMMANDED to Believe and to have FAITH in Christ; are these not "gifts" of God and part and parcel of Salvation?
2 Thessalonians 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the WORK OF FAITH with power:
Ephesians 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Phil 2:12,13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is GOD WHICH WORKETH in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Our Faith, Belief, Repentance are WORKS and a RESULT and EVIDENCE of, not REQUIREMENTS for, Salvation.
This seems pretty clear to me and hard to misunderstand it unless someone tries to twist it.
If someone doesn't believe punishment is eternal then maybe someone should likewise question whether heaven is eternal, because this verse states them both as being everlasting / eternal.
The Bible says the soul will die, the 2nd death, perish, etc. But how do you know that's not the eternal part, or how can you prove that God allows someone to actually suffer without a soul, etc. Basically people are just speculating, and its not going to get very far.
But perhaps we can all agree that hell is bad and heaven is good? Hell is punishment and something to be avoided, and we need Jesus to avoid it. John 3:16 says this.
Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
You can safely say some will be tormented day and night for ever and ever, because that's literally what this verse says.
Mark 9:43-48 - unquenching fire- you can safely say that hell isn't immediately going away, either. It's likely in full operation.
Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Daniel 12:1-2 ever lasting life vs ever lasting contempt
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 everlasting destruction. This might debunk the human reasoning idea that death or being destroyed must only happen in a short timeframe. This says it can happen 'ever lasting' which seems long term or eternal. So, this verse now explains all the other verses where it makes sense.
Revelation 14:11 smoke of their torment for ever and ever. That doesn't sound immediate or short term to me, but forever.
God bless you.
(Part 1):
Where in the bible does it say that the soul will cease to exist? If anyone ceases to exist when they die, can you please answer these questions. I will be the student here, so you have my attention. If you choose to answer these things, I do thank you ahead of time.
In Matthew 25:46, Is this not describing two classes of people, those who received Christ and belong to Him, and those who have rejected Him? If those who reject Him die and cease to exist, how can they go away into eternal punishment if they do not exist?
Revelation 14:11 says that the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night. How can this be for someone that does not exist?
Hebrews 9:27 tells us that it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment. How can anyone who dies and ceases to exist be judged since this judgment comes (after) death?
Revelation 21:8 identifies a class of individuals who will end up in the lake of fire, and it also mentions that this is the second death. If they went through the first death and ceased to exist, how can they experience a second death if they do not exist?
2 Thessalonians 1:9 says that they will suffer the punishment of (eternal destruction), away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might. How is ceasing to exist considered suffering?
Jema, since Romans 6:23 has been quoted which says that the wages of sin is death, how do you get cease to exist out of this word death when the Greek word used (Thanatos) means separation, not cessation of life? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say that at death, there is a separation from our physical body since this is what the word death means?
Revelation 14:10 talks about being tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. Who is this for and how long will this torment last?
I have more questions to follow. Thank you for your time.
the "clouds" that is referred to in Rev.1:7, I am beginning to think it is an army/cavalry like I 1st suggested.
( Revelation 1:7) "Behold, he ((cometh WITH clouds)); and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."
( Zephaniah 1:14-15 KJV) "That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of ((clouds)) and thick darkness,"
( 2 Thessalonians 1:7) "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven ((WITH his mighty angels)),"
( Revelation 19:14 KJV) "And the ((armies)) which were in heaven followed him upon ((white horses)), clothed in fine linen, white and clean."
God bless.
"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS,"
Maybe this is what the "behold he cometh with clouds" represent?
Look at Daniel 12:1,2; Matthew 18:9; Matthew 25:31-46; Mark 9:42-48; 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10; Jude 1:7; Revelation 14:9-11; Revelation 20:10,14,15. These do not speak of an annihilation, but of torment. And what were "their works"? Works of sinful lives, of self-glorification, of being God-haters & Christ-rejecters. If we remove the eternal suffering of Hell, we've lost a great part of our Gospel message, i.e. we not only won't have a Gospel to preach, we won't even need to preach the Gospel. Jude 1:23, "And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."
If the preacher hasn't got the awful image before him of souls for whom Christ died, going into an eternity of torment, then that preacher is preaching a watered down Gospel, one that tickles the mind but doesn't wrench the heart - a Gospel that only requires a glib acceptance of a lowly Jesus but not weeping in sorrow for sin's wretchedness before an Holy God. Christ didn't give up His Life only to bring sinners into Heaven, but to save them from His Father's Judgement sending them to an eternity of suffering. This is why the cost of Salvation had to be so great - it took the Son of God to come between an Holy God & a hell-deserved, hell-bound sinner. We all have to die one day - but through Christ, not all have to be consigned to Hell.
That there has to first be a departure from the faith (an apostasy); I understand this to be the general deterioration within the Church (as we even see now with the preaching of error & the Church, which ought to be seen as the Light & Body of Christ, has become in many places, a haven for Satan to have his way & lead many devout earnest people happily into hell's pit). And after this will be the revelation of the anti-Christ.
Is it at this point (mid-trib) that you believe the world, including the Church will go into the Great Tribulation & come under the anti-Christ? Or, could it be that this is at the very beginning of the Day of Christ, where the Great Tribulation is about to begin but first there will be the "falling away & the revelation of the man of sin"? If, as I believe, the Gt. Tribulation is the tribulation from God (His Wrath & not man's daily tribulations), then I understand Paul stating to the believers there, 'the rapture will happen first at the introduction of the man of sin & then God's Wrath - so don't be misled that that day has already started.'
Before the Wrath (the Great Tribulation) must come the rapture - the anti-Christ is revealed because God has allowed it by removing His Restrainer - and if His Wrath is to be poured out on unbelievers, where is His Church, the one which was not appointed to receive His Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:9)?
the spirit the gift of the H.G. is spirit not literal AIR OR WIND....Clouds are just symbolic for folks that have that living water the H.G. the Kingdom of God....But you keep making all these derogatory remarks of me not understanding that i am right...This Rev.11:15 kills any and all physical literal Rapture doctrine....As the Kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our lord and his Christ and he shall reign forever and ever...Right here on this earth...Thus there is no physical Rapture...We are caught away but only in the spirit the gift of H.G...As our God is spirit....Not AIR...Yes there are some scriptures that say that GOD is coming in the clouds...But the clouds are symbolic for folks that have the H.G the Kingdom of God....Thats y the sower of that good seed wants to sow his precious seed in our hearts....That the Kingdom might be right here on this EARTH....Defeating satan who is the god of this earth at this present time...k Gbu
I appreciate the ongoing discussion Jimbob we're having as very few are prepared to persevere in it. Yes, I did mention 'imminency & suddenness', but also mentioned 'readiness' ("In the NT, the command was for readiness"). We will have to leave that one, as after my revisiting those passages because of your comment, I still see that all three as adverbs are in use or implied, including, 'watchfulness'. We'll have to leave those Scriptures for other readers to examine.
Matthew 24:29-31. I read that as the Second Coming of Christ after the Great Tribulation days & that Jesus' rule upon the Earth will be with his elect living on the Earth at that time. It does not speak of those who will be instantly caught up to be with Christ (i.e. without the gathering of them together by the angels) & to be with Christ forever. Here, in the Rapture, those of the living & dead believers will be "changed" ( 1 Corinthians 15:52), i.e. physically reconstituted ("putting on incorruption") to be with Christ in the heavenlies, whereas this isn't a requirement for those 'of the elect' on the Earth who are gathered & relocated to Jerusalem (presumably).
Revelation 20:4-6 speaks of the vision that John received of all those who had laid down their lives for Christ. Not only those who came to believe in the Truth & resisted the Anti-Christ during his reign, but the multitudes since the Church's inception that have remained faithful to the Lord & willingly went to their deaths. Yes, we can suffer now (in tribulation), even as those who went before us, but this is part & parcel of following Christ ( John 16:33); including Romans 8:16-18; Philippians 1:29; 2 Thessalonians 1:4,5; 2 Timothy 2:11,12; etc (as you shared). I read this as the 'common' tribulation (trials of faith) that believers can experience, but not of the Great Tribulation (at the Day of the Lord).
Messianic and prophetic in nature; Psalm 68 is full of references to the destruction of the armies of the earth and the restoration of Israel and God's Covenant people along with the world at large eventually coming to worship the true and living God.
2 Thessalonians 1:8 discuss the Lord returning in vengeance with flaming fire; and this verse is hardly isolated in the scriptures; as we see finally occurring in Revelation 19. That pretty much sums up the first 2 verses of this Psalm.
The rest of the first half of the Psalm through verse 17 focuses on the deliverance of God; with the personal view of families (widows and fatherless) being represented in verse 5 and 6; where captives are also said to be released. These verses and their themes are repeated in Isaiah 42 as well as Isaiah 49. Taken literally; it would seem that there will be a final Exodus in volving children especially; which occurs during the Tribulation for slave purposes which will end abruptly at the return of the Lord. There will clearly be many widows of those who survive until the Millennium which will have children returned in some cases by royalty; who will basically bow down in the dust and act as foster parents. Verse 18 seems to bolser this idea with worship of the Lord in the Temple which finally fulfills its role to be "a place of prayer for all nations" ( Isaiah 56:7 also quoted by Jesus in the N.T. Gospels). Even MORE support is given in verses 29-32 for this concept.
These verses and many others sadly are often taken as symbolic language which takes much of the impact out of the passages. There needs; of course to be some latitude when we observe symbolism within a text of literal descriptions as to interpretation but hopefully the joy and awe of God's Providence won't be unnecessarily watered down because it seems to go against some sort of specific doctrinal stance. Let us be as Bereans searching the Scriptures daily and dividing rightly.
Agape. Rich P.
While you didn't directly address the questions, your chosen response indicates you might believe the New Testament isn't literal and are just parables to you, is that correct? You quoted the old testament suggesting that you might think that's literal, however. Do you mind sharing how you came to this belief?
For the benefit of anyone else reading this there are plenty of verses in the Bible about the literal hell:
Luke 12:5 - But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Matthew 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 - Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Matthew 13:50 - And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mark 9:43-48 - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
etc
Do you believe Jesus literally is Lord and literally died on the cross for you?
(see Rev. 18:5).
Verses 7 through 10 make it clear that indeed the return of Christ; destruction of enemies (in Armageddon and judgment in hell); as well as our promotion ruling and reigning on earth in the Millennial period (verse 10) factors in. There are 3 passages that state every knee shall bow and every tongue confess ( Isaiah 45:23; Philippians 2:10 and Romans 14:11).
We are not to seek vengeance ( Romans 12:19). However; we are doing God no favors by attempting to dampen down a character attribute that He has; in this case rewarding His saints and punishing the wicked. Perhaps those who being persecuted are the best examples of those who understand the need for Divine justice. The saints under the throne in Revelation certainly aren't scolded for asking "how long" ( Rev. 6:9); with response in verses 10-11. With Paul and the churches under heavy persecution at this time this was a necessary statement; and the frequent reminder to endure until the end. In order to warn others of the wrath to come; we certainly must believe in eternal judgment and a literal hell.
If we think people simply cease to exist (or are annihilated) it dumbs down the message and doesn't help anyone to have full conviction of sin ( John 16:8-11).
Because since we that time still where "children", we have every right not to know everything, every right to ask, explore, learn and so on. We still do Everyday. 2 Thessalonians 1:12 Acts 8:16
But when the Spirit in us awakens, we will no longer go around making mistakes. The Holy Spirit helps us if we let Him lead us where we do belongs. Namely with God in our Spirit where we can find strength, courage and forgiveness Spirit and the Spirit of love. And everything else good is there.
That Spirit makes us living Sources who speak right and do right because we believe in Jesus Christ Is the Son of God. Nor will the Holy Spirit ever stop and give us words in our mouths to preach about Jesus Christ. John 7:38
So when i walked around there in the dark before God found me. I did not have this Source because i was not filled with the Holy Spirit.
But here we come to something central and important. All God gives us is Grace over Grace. Because when i look back on my life without Him and my life with Him, i understand that i have been under Grace because He has been with me from the first day of my life.
Because when we are lost or confused, we can not even say the Lord Jesus name. Only if we are in the Holy Spirit can we say that.
1 Corinthians 12:3
At this stage i am also comforted since He has been so gracious to me. I want to believe that He is just as gracious with everyone else. When we can not say Jesus Christ from our mouths if we are not in the Holy Spirit. So i hear people say Jesus Christ with their mouths, is not it a confession in a way? Therefore, i attribute these people to the Lord. And He saves them to Himself after His will, i'm moving on. Hallelujah the Lord is near. Acts 8-9 Chapter. God bless us in Jesus Christ.
"And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."
1 Corinthians 16:14
"Let all your things be done with charity."
Colossians 3:14
"And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness."
2 Thessalonians 1:3 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
1 Peter 4:8
"And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins."
Like Mishael said there are many opinions on this and your question is there any scriptural support for pre-tribulation I would have to say no. God has not promised us to be spared tribulation, it is pretty much the opposite, John 16:33 Acts 14:22 2 Thessalonians 1:4. The Great tribulation and the wrath of God is two different things. God will spare us his wrath, 1 Thessalonians 5:9 His wrath will be on the unrighteous, Romans 1:18.
People looking to be raptured and taken to heaven before the beast shows up and the persecution worldwide starts will not be prepared and this may cause the great falling away. Some have taken the seventh week from Daniel and other scriptures to paint a beautiful picture that is not scriptural. Millions of dollars from movies, books, tv preachers have been made on this theory that started in the 1700s
Jesus told us in Matthew 24:29-31 Mark 13:24-27 it will be after the tribulation. There is more but this should answer your question, if we are living when it starts, we will go through it, Matthew 10:22. We must do what Jesus told the disciples when they asked him about the end. The first thing He said was Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
There will be a great temptation coming, and we must be strong in our faith in His word, even unto death, because we have this promise. Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
God bless,
RLW
How God decides who are worthy of judgement (whether some primitive soul or those with mental shortcomings, etc), is God's matter, not mine nor yours. If you believe this God of Love is incapable of judging sinners in such a manner, then you would need to consider the operation of God throughout Scriptures - i.e. He is indeed a God of Love but also a God of Justice. We can often be conditioned by the world & what we perceive to be right, to think of such a justice system as normal, as true. Whereas God's Justice always demands the correct penalty - and unfortunately, simply losing one's life in death (which happens to us all) is just one part of that justice. The wages of sin might indeed be death, but the wages for the rejection of God & His offer of salvation are far greater ( Daniel 12:1,2; Matthew 18:7-9; Matthew 25:31-46; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9; Jude 1:6,7; Revelation 14:9-11; Revelation 20:10-15). And sister GiGi has also given a very apt response to you.
The Scriptures have much toSay about 'theDay ofThe LORD,' but precisely whatisTheDay ofThe LORD?
Generally speaking, of course, it refers to the time when the day of man, or "the timesof the Gentiles," will be brought to an end, and "The LORD AloneShallBeExalted"
(Isaiah2:11,17; Isa 2:11; Isa 2:17; Isa 2:11, 17). But will it include more than the actual Return andReign of CHRIST?
Will it include the prophesied tribulation period, during whichGod will bring Gentilerule to an end? We believe it will.
One pastor who teaches that the Body of CHRIST will go through the tribulation andthat its Rapture to be with CHRIST will followthe tribulation, writes:
'TheDay ofThe LORD follows the tribulation and it is the day of the LORD's wrath upon those who 'know not God and obey not TheGospel of ourLORD JESUSCHRIST' ( 2 Thessalonians 1:8). It comes as 'a thief in thenight,' which is not so with the tribulation.'
But this interpretation does not take into account ALLThatIs SaidIn Scripture about'TheDay ofThe LORD' - and contradicts some of it."...
...No, the Rapture of the Body of CHRIST to be With HIM will not follow the tribulation; it will precede it. Thus the Apostle Paul, after writing about the Rapture of the Body in 1 Thessalonians 4, continues in Chapter 5 with The Word "But," to show the disrelation of God's prophesied 'times and seasons' and 'The Day of The LORD,' From That Blessed Day {Of CHRIST 2 Th 2:2, et al}, for which every believer should be "looking, waiting, And watching!"...
(Full Article: "The Day of the Lord -- What Is It?" - by Pastor Cornelius R. Stam)
Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
( 2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 = Grace/Mystery fellowship {Romans - Philemon}, today?)