Thanks again brother for your input. My first thought was to agree with you that there was no point in dragging this exchange out any further; but then felt that I should respond to you, as I hate leaving matters hanging without giving a response.
I agree with you that quite often at funeral services we hear that "Bob is with Jesus in heaven", whether or not he was truly saved & made new through Christ's Blood. But in these discussions, I hope that we have gone beyond such ill-considered remarks and dealing with what the biblical texts actually state, or at least, leading us to form a valid understanding.
You wrote (in connection to Ecclesiastes 9:5 & Psalm 115:17), "I believe that if our spirit were alive in heaven, we would be praising the LORD". If indeed our spirits were not in heaven but somehow are floating around or settled down in the grave, then yes, there would be no praising the LORD. But if our spirits are in Heaven, then we could do no less than be exulting the LORD & His Son in praise.
I believe that in part, you are correct that "if we all have an immortal spirit, there is no death and no true gift of eternal life because we already possess it." The only problem with that, is that if our bodies were uncorrupted by sin, then that body must needs perish for no sin can enter into Heaven. As such, Adam and Eve were in such a pure state, physically and spiritually, and would have lived eternally on Earth, in their Eden, constantly communing with their Creator. But sin entered, they fell spiritually, & their bodies began the process of deterioration until death overtook them. And so the promises you quoted from John's Gospel are relevant, not to the body that perishes, but to the real aspect of man, the spirit that can never die but given eternal life with the One Who purchased them. Onto Page 2.
Thanks for your reply. I understand many see this as comfort, similar to what you hear at a funeral when the preacher says Bob is with Jesus in heaven. Am I going to tell that loved one No, he is not? NO, but what is the actual truth?
Ecclesiastes 9:5, if we die, we know nothing. Psalms 115:17 I believe that if our spirit were alive in heaven, we would be praising the LORD. Our only hope of eternal life is in Jesus; this comes when we are resurrected, not before, 1 Corinthians 15:52-54.
Not to drag this out, I will say, if we all have an immortal spirit, there is no death and no true gift of eternal life because we already possess it. John 3:15, John 10:28, Romans 2:7, Romans 6:23, 1 John 2:25. This is our promise. The others receive death; they will perish, John 3:16, 2 Thessalonians 2:10, 2 Peter 2:12. The word perish is to destroy fully, permanent, absolute destruction. Revelation 21:8 their part, their punishment, and death will fit their sins, not burn for eternity.
Death is not a separation, as Greek philosophy puts it, which has influenced today's understanding.
Thanks brother Ronald for those thoughts and your understanding on this matter. Just to give a slight, yet important, correction to your quotation of my post: I wrote of the "SPIRITS of the deceased believers were already in Heaven, etc". So, my understanding (to answer your question) is that we are essentially spirit beings living in mortal bodies. Our spirits can never die ( Acts 7:59; Luke 16:20-23; Matthew 17:1-3) but our bodies certainly will die and perish into the earth ( Ecclesiastes 9:5,10; Psalm 6:5; Psalm 115:17) and awaiting resurrection. So, because of these perishing bodies, we are mortal beings, but with an immortal spirit that gives us life and one day returns to God.
Your quoting 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 is particularly clear. You have shared that these verses apply to the time of the resurrection of our dead bodies. But as I read it, Paul is essentially telling us that if we are alive ("at home in the body"), we are not in the Lord's presence ("absent from the Lord"). We can only be alive or dead; if alive, our spirit within us gives us life; if dead, our spirit departs our bodies that causes death.
So Paul is "groaning" over this matter, longing for departure from this life that he might be with his Lord. There isn't any intermediate state or any length of time in Paul's writing between death and life - it speaks of one or the other: either we are alive with our spirit or dead without the spirit. We can't be dead with our spirit in-house, and awaiting the resurrection. Or, we could even ask, 'why would Paul even want to depart this life and then remain in the grave for an indeterminate length of time?' His longing was to be with Jesus immediately upon his death, thus he looked forward to it.
To your answer to your question: "when will we be absent from this body?" this is at the resurrection; my understanding (as given above) is 'our absence from this body is at our death'. Every blessing.
No problem. I have time to spare as I'm currently off a part time job and thankfully in my old age I can afford to only work part time. I have a couple ventures with buying and selling coins and am working some time in the next week or two with some property I was able to get in Upstate NY with a great deal. I came home to take care of both parents a few years back and my mom passed in Januray and my Dad is in a facility. I may as well be productive when I can; and since I'm in the house alone at this point I hear the cell phone alert whenever it goes off so maybe it is just paranoia on my part.
I'm a shade over 60 and it seems you are fairly young. There are some older women who are excited about their walk who may be new believers; although a rarity today. If we could only remain open hearted and minded always having enthusiasm about our walk. I am looking for discipleship opportunities; albeit anonymous contacts here but I suppose that is good as in person another woman would be more suitable in that regard. I hope to hear from you as you grow in the Lord and see answered prayers. I never had the chance to have kids of my own so I suppose it is like having a legacy with these communications.
As Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 9:10 we are to do with all our might what our hands can produce. Of course he messed his life up big time. Frankly after I was in the way of a stranger earlier as you may have seen in my earlier post I got cussed out so it is nice to see some kindness come my way with someone who wants to seek the Lord.
I'm not sure what your scripture knowledge is since you seem to have appeared here suddenly. I suggest you read what the prophets experienced in seeking His face. If you are as open hearted as you seem and seeking His face I suspect the tough things regarding men's evil hearts and the sins of the nation are things you would rather not consider. I'm assuming you've faced your old self and are fully surrendered to Him.
Today I am about to prepare to go to a funeral of a church member who passed away fairly fast after several severe issues affected his body and apparently he died from his heart condition that was chronic in the family.
Tomorrow I will be out until Sunday; Lord willing finishing paperwork for the cabin I invested in up in upstate New York and; Lord willing I will get electricity hooked back up on Friday or perhaps Saturday. I'd appreciate prayer for travel mercies and wisdom as to putting water in the place. Also for whether my friend from church is actually going up there; or another friend in a couple weeks or neither to help me get some insulation in the ceiling and perhaps go fishing. My friend from church wants to start a recovery program which I may have discussed before. The book is excellent full of scripture and testimonies; although I need to talk with this brother beforehand about my participation and some of my doctrinal views; particularly on the divorce and remarriage issue. Please pray for my wisdom there as well.
I am sort of in an Ecclesiastes 9:10 mindset in some ways; as much of what I am doing I have thought about for many years but haven't had the resources to do it. The other day I felt the Lord was once again emphasizing to me the importance of discussing the Rapture. This certainly trumps everything else and will come as a rude awakening not just to the world but those asleep. I am not sure what the sign is exactly in regard to the bridegroom coming at the midnight hour; this could mean somehow there is a short notice to the body of Christ before the Rapture or has second coming implications. If it is the former; it is sobering to think that some will know what's going to happen but will not be ready to participate in the event. We see this precedent with Elijah passing the mantle to Elisha. I used to study these possible hidden meanings of scripture not traditionally explained as Rapture texts.
8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.
9Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.
This verse gives us two interesting insights; the first in verse 8 which we also see mentioned in the New Testament in Revelation as well as other places such as Isaiah in the Old Testament. We are also reminded of Ephesians 5:27 on unspotted and unwrinkled garments of purity.
Verse 9 is interesting in light of Solomon's vast array of wives and concubines. There is some uncertainty apparently in different articles regarding who Solomon's first wife was. At this stage in life perhaps he realized it would have been better not to stray from the covenant that God had intended originally in regard to that subject.
Moving along we see the general sentiment in verse 13 regarding death coming suddenly without warning to everyone. Verses 14-17 talk about the virtue of wisdom in securing a city but how such is forgotten in time; and verse 18 concludes that
"Wisdom is better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroyeth much good." This shows how; in terms similar to Galatians 5:9 a "little leaven leaveneth the whole lump."
Ecclesiastes 10
The somber tone of the book isn't seen this chapter; and many adages about not being foolish in particular and several other subject matters are covered. Proper etiquette toward kings and rulers is shown in verse 4; which reminds us of Esther with the King and David appealing to the King for more time when Nebuchadnezzar was ready to kill him along with all of his magicians when some couldn't interpret his dream. ( Daniel 2:16). The last verse reads Curse not the king, no not in thy thought; and curse not the rich in thy bedchamber: for a bird of the air shall carry the voice-wisely put.
This spirit is not the person, nor is it immortal or eternal, nor does it have a conscious existence when the person dies. Those of us who have the Holy Spirit in us, Romans 8:11, But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you, this is the Spirit of God, for those in Jesus Christ, this happens at resurrection.
In Psalms 16:7 David said the LORD has given him counsel; this is his spirit communicating with God, as Paul calls it in 2 Corinthians 4:16 the inward man. Peter describes it as the hidden man of the heart, 1 Peter 3:4. When God communicates with us, it is not with our mind; it's a Spirit-to-spirit communication.
God gives the human a spirit, some believe it is at conception, Zechariah 12:1, Isaiah 12:5. We know He takes it back at the time of death, Ecclesiastes 12:7. Psalm 104:29, thou takest away their breath, they die, the Hebrew word for breath is ruach, it also means spirit. James 2:26, the body without the spirit is dead. All consciousness ends when we die. Psalm 6:5, Job 14:12-14, Job 17:13-16. Psalm 115:17. Ecclesiastes 9:5-10. We sleep in death until resurrection day, the day of redemption. 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15.
The Bible tells us a spirit can be good, bad, or broken, Psalm 34:18, God cares for us and wants to help mend our brokenness, Isaiah 41:10. When we do not have rule over our spirit, we can go so bad that God turns one over to a reprobate mind as we see in Romans 1:18-32, the door is shut. With God's Spirit, the Holy Spirit, we in our spirit grow in our faith and have comfort in His presence.
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." My interpetation: No mean time, cannot work or be done (not of God)
Elder Graves Quoted in Paragraph 1: Line 10-13 , Paragraph 2:Line 1-5
My interpetation:
Coming out of the law in truth meaning victory. 1 Corinthians 15:55 KJV
Elder Graves Quoted Paragraph 3 Line 8-14
My Respond: has blessed me with the opportunity that I have used my gifts to serve other writing comments of my ministry on Elder Graves blog website being displayed.
Colossians 3:17 KJV
And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
Proverbs 22:29 KJV
My interpetation:
Blessed my hands to see God, work, accomplish for me, and prosper. ( Mark 10:43-44, Nehemiah 2:18, Genesis 39:3,6
Genesis 41:43 )
Genesis 41:43 KJV
Elder Graves Defining Excellence Paragraph 2 Line 6-10
My Respond: I have honored God in Fairness and integrity in serving others working hands on and promoting the intellectual, ethical, cultural, emotional, and physical growth of each student.
According to California Department of Education supports high - quality educational programs for California diverse student population through its educational leadership role and places great importance on cultivating a diverse staff that understands and promotes the intellectual, ethical, cultural, emotional, and physical growth of each student.
Elder Graves Quoted Motivations for Christian Excellence
1. God and Jesus are Excellent:
My Respond: As a follower of Christ reflecting his excellence these are my supporting scripture texts Hebrews 12:2 KJV, Hebrews 4:15-16 KJV
Elder Graves Quoted Motivations for Christian Excellence
Going to heaven is a common teaching, however lets examine what the scriptures actually say. First at Genesis 3:19 Adam was told he is returning to the dust. At Psalm 146:3-4 we are told what happens when man dies. We go to Ecclesiastes 9:1-3, 5-6, 10, 11 where we find out those who have passed are not conscious.
That is not the end of the matter however. Jesus promised a ressurectionat John 5:28-29
Psalm 1143:3 For the enemy hath persecuted my soul; he hath smitten my life down to the ground; he hath made me to dwell in darkness, as those that have been long dead.
1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
The clash and contrast between light and darkness is at a fevered pitch in our time. Psalm 7:15 states He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. Sin is a reproach to anyone; Proverbs 14:34 says Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people. Thus the sins of individuals collectively bring down everyone who is not one of God's children.
My own situation has shown me how elderly people who used to be characterized as having a nice personality show their true nature when running out of options in life. This can have the opposite effect on some who were always nasty; and of course the Lord can intervene; as long as their is breath there is hope; or as Ecclesiastes 9:4 states For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Proverbs 9:8 says Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee. Those who God has called and chosen will be drawn through warnings of their sinful state; in fact they will be thankful always to find the remedy as only the sick need a physician ( Luke 5:31). In contrast the wicked cannot love God or rebuke; they will only try to avoid the consequences of their actions through self justification or somehow thinking their "good works outweigh the bad". 2 Corinthians 7:10 says For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. Thus; the wicked through conviction are led to self destruction and the righteous have the opposite fate.
The final battle of Armageddon draws ever nearer. May we all be ready at His coming.
As you know, the kings of Israel chosen by GOD they were anointed with oil by the prophets of the Lord.
To be anointed with oil is to be separated as GOD's chosen one- Matthew 25:31-34. Take a look. The true chosen ones of the Lord are prudent and wise, they have lamp to shine as they walk in the world of darkness, and enough oil to keep the lamp burning to meet the Lord, the bridegroom, and be saved. By the way, He said: Revelation 3:11-13:
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no one take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my GOD, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my GOD, and the name of the city of my GOD, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my GOD: and I will write upon him my new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Att all times, let your garments be white, and let oil not be wanting on your head - Ecclesiastes 9:8.
Revelation 19:5-8:
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our GOD, all ye His servants, and ye that fear Him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord GOD Omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Regarding mystery of GOD, I have already commented in prior posts, our Lord JESUS-the Word made flesh- spoke of this in Matthew 11:27, and according His promise, unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance. Hallelujah!.
May our Lord GOD bless and keep us, and give us His protection
Verse 3. "This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, THAT THERE IS ONE EVENT UNTO ALL:....( There's the evil! ) .."THAT THERE IS ONE EVENT UNTO ALL" This speaks of the mindset and philosophy of man under the sun.
....yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Now Ecclesiastes 9:4-10 continues on with this mindset of man under the sun.
Some say Proverbs is a book of practical wisdom, while Ecclesiastes is a book of speculative wisdom.
Ecclesiastes presents us a naturalistic vision of life-one that sees life through distinctively human eyes.
Perhaps others would like to share their thoughts.
Scriptures in Ecclesiastes 9:5 states that " The Dead know nothing at all" How is it that the (rich man) was able recognize Father Abraham and Lazarus being comforted within " Abraham Bosom" as well as carry on a conversation with Father Abraham to tell Lazarus dip his finger in water and touch is (the rich man's) tongue , and also ask Father Abraham to send someone from the dead to tell/warn his 5 other brother's not come to where he (the rich man) was in hell ? If the Dead know nothing
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. ( John 5:17).
Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ. ( Colossians 3:23-24).
These two verses demonstrate to us that work in the secular or "spiritual" realm is to be done with all of our might (following the principal of Ecclesiastes 9:10). Christ actually states that in some cases such as John 4:38 that they have reaped what others have sown. John 4 discusses the conversion of the Samaritan woman (woman at the well) and her evangelistic campaign. In this case she did the sowing and the Disciples reaped the benefits. It is interesting to think that she was the first evangelist listed even before the Disciples were sent out two by two (I think). Even Jesus didn't have to work that hard in that respect; such gratitude for being saved by sins was shown in other women such as Mary Magdeline. Would we all approach the Great Commission with such eagerness.
When it comes to our everyday jobs I am grateful in my situation even with just part time work being all that I can do with other responsibilities that I am surrounded by people that work hard. I work doing food prep in a high school kitchen; and especially with intense State Inspection coming those who would want to mess about won't remain very long. Having supervisors that I respect in each of the other surrounding schools in the District where we are sent on occasion is an added bonus; along with the lady from one of them that joined our team today. There are a number of passages discussing employer and employee relations (in many cases servant and master analogy). Our work ethic isn't a substitute for sharing God's Word; but an opportune moment won't earn any respect if we don't have a foundation of trusted service for the weeks or months before such a conversation can occur.
Perhaps I should have added verse 2 for more context for my post to better understand the evil mentioned of men under the sun.
HERE'S A PICTURE OF MAN'S VAIN MIND.
Ecclesiastes 9:2.
All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath. THIS IS AN EVIL AMONG ALL THINGS THAT ARE DONE UNDER THE SUN, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. Ecclesiastes 9:2-3
Vs 4. For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
The theme here is "the living dog, he will one day parish and never return, as well as the Lion.
However, atleast the dog is alive because according toverse2 "All things come alike to all"
THE VAIN MIND OF THE MEN UNDER THE SUN BELIEVES
( All things come alike to all")
(there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked;)
The life you have now is your portion. It's all you get.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 is commonly used for the belief in soul sleep.
Again, However Ecclesiastes 12:7 says otherwise.
(Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.)
Ok.My point is what my Lord JESUS said.Follow me;and let the dead bury their dead-Mat.8:22.In JESUS is life;the LIFE is the light of men, the LIGHT shineth in darkness;and the darkness comprehend it not- John 1:4-5.
Speaking of dog,what matters and prevails is what is written in Isaiah 56:10-11: 10 His watchmen are blind:they are all ignorant,they are all dumb dogs,they cannot bark;sleeping,lying down,loving to slumber.
11Yea,they are greedy dogs which can never have enough,and they are SHEPHERDS(Pastors)that cannot understand:they all look to their own way,every one for his gain,from his quarter.
And my Lord JESUS warned:Re.22:15-For without are dogs,and sorcerers,and whoremongers,and murderers,and idolaters,and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
And Paul warned:Beware of dogs... Philippians 3:2
JESUS said:Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts,murders, adulteries,fornications,thefts,false witness,blasphemies-Mat.15:19
Their throat is an open sepulchre;with their tongues they have used deceit;the poison of asps is under their lips-Ro.3:13:
Death and life are in the power of the tongue:and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
GOD warned Adam:Gen.2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil( Genesis 3:1),thou shalt not eat of it:for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Daniel prophesied:Many that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,some to everlasting life,and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
It because dust is the food of the Serpent-Gen.3:17
The King shall say unto them on His right hand,Come, ye blessed of my Fathe
Are you saying, Shabbat Keeper, that it would be a scary thought that unbelievers will just cease to exist upon dying? Just clarifying. But if that is the case, I doubt if it would be scary for them since they have already died ( Ecclesiastes 9:5) - or have I missed something?
If I were an unbeliever & continued to resist the Gospel of Salvation, knowing that only death & no more was the end of my mortal existence, I would live it up even more while I still have breath - for tomorrow I die & will be no more. What then is the Gospel that we preach? For what purpose did Christ have to come & die? Why did He have to bear the sins of the world with God's Wrath/Punishment, if the unbeliever has none of it to confront him after death? And lastly, if death alone is the punishment, then both believer & unbeliever alike have to face death one day if the Lord tarries. Now if the believer by his faith & God's Mercy never ever tastes of physical death (maybe he gets to old age & then raptured), then maybe there is some small message of hope to the unbeliever in such a Gospel.
Thanks, brother, I hope you did not take Greek Philosophy personally. I understand the Hebrew word nephesh, it can be any being, dog, cat, or cow. It can also mean a soul, a living being, a dead being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, and emotion, basically who we are. When I said the spirit of life, I did not mean it had anything to do with the Spirit of God, sorry for the misunderstanding. I meant spirit/breath as the word neshamah used in Job 27:3.
I understand our being or soul is the same thing it is who we are and who will someday be with Jesus and see God's face. But that day is the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30. In Scripture in death there is no remembrance of us, Psalm 6:5. In death we lie down until, Job 14:12-14 the grave is our house and our bed Job 17:13-16.
We will see death and the grave and our soul will be there Psalm 89:48 and this Ecclesiastes 9:5-10. I know our understanding may be different, but I do not see in Scripture where we or any part of us is immortal until resurrection day 1 Cor. 15:52-53 we will be raised from the grave, us, our soul/being, who we are.
The definition of death is the separation of the soul from the body I do not see in Scripture. It does say there is no knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, death, Ecclesiastes 9:10. I do not see that has changed. I know many understand as you and I hope you take this as just a little of where my understanding comes from, for it does not affect salvation.
The way I see it, we are waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with His reward of eternal life, either we will be alive or asleep in the grave.
Psalm 88. Probably the most depressing passage in all scripture as to a personal viewpoint of experience in this life. This certainly reminds us of the book of Job. (see Job 30:15 in particular).
Verse 4 seems to indicate that this person is near unto death and is further supported by verse 6 where it seems the pit of Sheol is nigh. We see that those in that state are "cut off from thy hand" therefore there is no more mercy from God at that point. We are reminded of Isaiah 38:18 and many other passages which show that the dead will not praise God (verse 10). Furthermore; destruction and forgetfulness also describe the fate of those in hell (verse 11-12). Those things which affected our emotions and desires on earth ( Ecclesiastes 9:5) will not exist as the body returns to the dust. However; the soul lives on and for the unregenerate in conscious torment (see Lazarus and the unnamed rich man ( Luke 16:19-31).
Nonetheless; we must seek His face while He can be found. Job's state wasn't hopeless; and neither is anyone in Christ who truly repents and seeks the Lord. The enemy certainly can have us ensnared in sin; or oppressing us with feelings of hopelessness. We need to confess sin and seek His face; as well as trusting His promises despite circumstances. That is good advice surely in war; famine and other horrendous circumstances that bring us near death as well as seeing death all around us. These passages should remind us to seek those who may be disfigured by disease and to demonstrate God's love through service wherever we can.
My understanding is like Adam's, just to add to what Adam said. You should study on your own, there are different views.
The belief that our soul is immortal comes from ancient Greek philosophy. The meaning of death, being a separation of the soul from the body also came from ancient Greek philosophy that is different than what we see in the Old Testament.
It is Platonism, Augustine of Hippo held this philosophy. He was a theologian, and philosopher with a strong influence on doctrines in the church, in the fourth and early fifth century.
Gen. 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. The spirit/breath gives us life.
The Hebrew word nephesh means a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, and emotion. The Greek word psuche means the soul, life, self, and a person's distinct identity. If you study them, it is also used for all living beings' fish, animals, birds, and man.
Physically we live AND die, eternally we live OR die, our choice of the gift of God that is through Jesus Christ our Lord, eternal life, or die the second death.
The word spirit, the Bible writers used the Hebrew word ruach meaning breath, wind, spirit, or the Greek word pneuma also meaning wind, breath, spirit, this life-giving breath/spirit is what goes back to God.
We are buried dead, mortal, in corruption and we are raised immortally incorruptible 1 Corinthians 15:42-44. That is when we will be absent from this flesh body.
All consciousness ends when we die. Psalm 6:5Job 14:12-14Job 17:13-16Psalm 89:48Psalm 115:17Ecclesiastes 9:5-10
We sleep in death until resurrection day, the day of redemption. 1 Corinthians 15:51-54Ephesians 4:30
Our spirit (breath) given to us by God is what keeps us alive, and we are a living soul. Ecclesiastes 12:7Psalm 104:29Psalm 146:4James 2:26
When studying the story of Peter and His denial of Christ; the first thing that tends to come up is the self confidence of Peter and his arrogance in thinking he was stronger than he actually was. That is certainly a valid point; although it could be said for all the Disciples at that time who ran off. What is also evident is the sense of complacency; or predictability which they all thought could be depended on; closing their hearts and thus blinding their minds to the frequent prophetic warnings from Christ about his death that was soon to come.
The same thing applies to us as believers; for instance if we have had a long season (as in this country) of relative freedom. Should organized governmental persecution; war, famine or another pestilence come are we too set in our ways to be able to endure?
There is; of course the inevitable day of death; either for ourselves or others we know. Ecclesiastes 9:13 states that it comes as a snare and on an unknown schedule. Getting our affairs in order as a believer involves the daily disciplines and working toward His goals which involves; one way or another fulfilling the Great Commission. The disciples were to learn what was needed to begin growing the church; and were given the Comforter and thus His presence to guide them ( John 14:26). The next major change was after Paul was martyred; as well as Peter. They both warned of the wolves in the flock who would soon be preaching falsehood. Satan is constantly to be watched for; both causing falsehood as well as persecution to affect the Body of believers.
Just as we would prepare for a natural disaster; it pays to be proactive with prayer and our devotional life. It strengthens us with our trust in the Lord through scripture meditation and memorization; but is also necessary as a witness to others; both lost individuals and those caught in life's unexpected trials. Wisdom with physical resources means we can aid others
First, it is not the denial of life after death; just simply the observation that death is the end of life as we know it. Only the living things experience the things of life.
Psalm 57. James 3:6 is one of the first things I notice a parallel to with verse 4. There are other verses describing animals prophetic of those surrounding Christ during the crucifixion in Psalm 22:12-13. Here in this Psalm we once again are given in the intro. the information that this was written during David's cave retreat as happened multiple times with Saul's insanity.
We see crying in verse 2 and singing in verses 7-8; finally praise in verse 9 with the resulting appreciation of mercy and truth (v.10) with His name exalted in the last verse. These are solid Biblical approaches to persecution; as we see when Paul was incarcerated in Acts 16:25-28 along with Silas; it in fact led to deliverance.
Ecclesiastes 9:12 and a host of other verses describe men being caught in nets due to their own sin. (see Job 18:5-9; Isaiah 24:18). "Vengeance is mine; I shall repay" is in Deuteronomy 32:35 and quoted in Romans 12:19. It is important to remember David's attitude toward "God's anointed" (see 1 Samuel 24). Even when Saul died David still mourned over him. This attitude of loving our enemies should characterize our lives while we still proclaim the truth that indeed the Day of His wrath is coming; and only through the cross will we escape.
The subsequent verses clearly indicate that this group is taken out of great Tribulation. Many would argue that the 144,000 were witnessing to this great multitude; and this is the result of the world's greatest evangelistic outreach.
I; however question that in light of verse 14 of the same chapter. This indicates that their robes were washed and made white in the blood of the Lamb. It would seem that there is a link here to those who had stained garments such as Sardis church in Rev. 3:4; with a further admonition in the next verse of being victorious. In light of those who are in white and unwrinkled garments in Ephesians 5:27 and even the admonition of Ecclesiastes 9:8 as well as possibly the parable of the wise virgins it seems like a strong possibility that in the first part of the Tribulation some may be left behind who are currently compromised and worldly. In other words; that would make the Rapture a reward issue; rather than merely a salvation one.
At some point of course there will be those who are martyred for not taking the mark of the Beast. That appears to be after this event if we take things mainly chronologically. Even in that case; we need to remember by the sixth seal everyone is aware of God an Christ and they go to the caves to hide from their presence ( Rev. 6:15). That is a far cry from when eventually they fight against Christ at Armageddon. My point though is that there will be no need to preach as we do now that Christ is Lord but a declaration of judgment ensuing; and the Kingdom arriving on earth will be proclaimed. We see this also once angels and apparently an eagle go throughout the earth admonishing man to worship the Creator; not to take the mark; and the woes are given to Babylon. ( Rev. 14:6-12). Notice that at the end of this passage those who are about to die are mentioned; thus bolstering another group of martyrs after the one mentioned in Revelation 7.
I agree with you that quite often at funeral services we hear that "Bob is with Jesus in heaven", whether or not he was truly saved & made new through Christ's Blood. But in these discussions, I hope that we have gone beyond such ill-considered remarks and dealing with what the biblical texts actually state, or at least, leading us to form a valid understanding.
You wrote (in connection to Ecclesiastes 9:5 & Psalm 115:17), "I believe that if our spirit were alive in heaven, we would be praising the LORD". If indeed our spirits were not in heaven but somehow are floating around or settled down in the grave, then yes, there would be no praising the LORD. But if our spirits are in Heaven, then we could do no less than be exulting the LORD & His Son in praise.
I believe that in part, you are correct that "if we all have an immortal spirit, there is no death and no true gift of eternal life because we already possess it." The only problem with that, is that if our bodies were uncorrupted by sin, then that body must needs perish for no sin can enter into Heaven. As such, Adam and Eve were in such a pure state, physically and spiritually, and would have lived eternally on Earth, in their Eden, constantly communing with their Creator. But sin entered, they fell spiritually, & their bodies began the process of deterioration until death overtook them. And so the promises you quoted from John's Gospel are relevant, not to the body that perishes, but to the real aspect of man, the spirit that can never die but given eternal life with the One Who purchased them. Onto Page 2.
Thanks for your reply. I understand many see this as comfort, similar to what you hear at a funeral when the preacher says Bob is with Jesus in heaven. Am I going to tell that loved one No, he is not? NO, but what is the actual truth?
Ecclesiastes 9:5, if we die, we know nothing. Psalms 115:17 I believe that if our spirit were alive in heaven, we would be praising the LORD. Our only hope of eternal life is in Jesus; this comes when we are resurrected, not before, 1 Corinthians 15:52-54.
Not to drag this out, I will say, if we all have an immortal spirit, there is no death and no true gift of eternal life because we already possess it. John 3:15, John 10:28, Romans 2:7, Romans 6:23, 1 John 2:25. This is our promise. The others receive death; they will perish, John 3:16, 2 Thessalonians 2:10, 2 Peter 2:12. The word perish is to destroy fully, permanent, absolute destruction. Revelation 21:8 their part, their punishment, and death will fit their sins, not burn for eternity.
Death is not a separation, as Greek philosophy puts it, which has influenced today's understanding.
Thanks again, brother,
God bless,
RLW
Your quoting 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 is particularly clear. You have shared that these verses apply to the time of the resurrection of our dead bodies. But as I read it, Paul is essentially telling us that if we are alive ("at home in the body"), we are not in the Lord's presence ("absent from the Lord"). We can only be alive or dead; if alive, our spirit within us gives us life; if dead, our spirit departs our bodies that causes death.
So Paul is "groaning" over this matter, longing for departure from this life that he might be with his Lord. There isn't any intermediate state or any length of time in Paul's writing between death and life - it speaks of one or the other: either we are alive with our spirit or dead without the spirit. We can't be dead with our spirit in-house, and awaiting the resurrection. Or, we could even ask, 'why would Paul even want to depart this life and then remain in the grave for an indeterminate length of time?' His longing was to be with Jesus immediately upon his death, thus he looked forward to it.
To your answer to your question: "when will we be absent from this body?" this is at the resurrection; my understanding (as given above) is 'our absence from this body is at our death'. Every blessing.
I'm a shade over 60 and it seems you are fairly young. There are some older women who are excited about their walk who may be new believers; although a rarity today. If we could only remain open hearted and minded always having enthusiasm about our walk. I am looking for discipleship opportunities; albeit anonymous contacts here but I suppose that is good as in person another woman would be more suitable in that regard. I hope to hear from you as you grow in the Lord and see answered prayers. I never had the chance to have kids of my own so I suppose it is like having a legacy with these communications.
As Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 9:10 we are to do with all our might what our hands can produce. Of course he messed his life up big time. Frankly after I was in the way of a stranger earlier as you may have seen in my earlier post I got cussed out so it is nice to see some kindness come my way with someone who wants to seek the Lord.
I'm not sure what your scripture knowledge is since you seem to have appeared here suddenly. I suggest you read what the prophets experienced in seeking His face. If you are as open hearted as you seem and seeking His face I suspect the tough things regarding men's evil hearts and the sins of the nation are things you would rather not consider. I'm assuming you've faced your old self and are fully surrendered to Him.
Tomorrow I will be out until Sunday; Lord willing finishing paperwork for the cabin I invested in up in upstate New York and; Lord willing I will get electricity hooked back up on Friday or perhaps Saturday. I'd appreciate prayer for travel mercies and wisdom as to putting water in the place. Also for whether my friend from church is actually going up there; or another friend in a couple weeks or neither to help me get some insulation in the ceiling and perhaps go fishing. My friend from church wants to start a recovery program which I may have discussed before. The book is excellent full of scripture and testimonies; although I need to talk with this brother beforehand about my participation and some of my doctrinal views; particularly on the divorce and remarriage issue. Please pray for my wisdom there as well.
I am sort of in an Ecclesiastes 9:10 mindset in some ways; as much of what I am doing I have thought about for many years but haven't had the resources to do it. The other day I felt the Lord was once again emphasizing to me the importance of discussing the Rapture. This certainly trumps everything else and will come as a rude awakening not just to the world but those asleep. I am not sure what the sign is exactly in regard to the bridegroom coming at the midnight hour; this could mean somehow there is a short notice to the body of Christ before the Rapture or has second coming implications. If it is the former; it is sobering to think that some will know what's going to happen but will not be ready to participate in the event. We see this precedent with Elijah passing the mantle to Elisha. I used to study these possible hidden meanings of scripture not traditionally explained as Rapture texts.
8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.
9Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.
This verse gives us two interesting insights; the first in verse 8 which we also see mentioned in the New Testament in Revelation as well as other places such as Isaiah in the Old Testament. We are also reminded of Ephesians 5:27 on unspotted and unwrinkled garments of purity.
Verse 9 is interesting in light of Solomon's vast array of wives and concubines. There is some uncertainty apparently in different articles regarding who Solomon's first wife was. At this stage in life perhaps he realized it would have been better not to stray from the covenant that God had intended originally in regard to that subject.
Moving along we see the general sentiment in verse 13 regarding death coming suddenly without warning to everyone. Verses 14-17 talk about the virtue of wisdom in securing a city but how such is forgotten in time; and verse 18 concludes that
"Wisdom is better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroyeth much good." This shows how; in terms similar to Galatians 5:9 a "little leaven leaveneth the whole lump."
Ecclesiastes 10
The somber tone of the book isn't seen this chapter; and many adages about not being foolish in particular and several other subject matters are covered. Proper etiquette toward kings and rulers is shown in verse 4; which reminds us of Esther with the King and David appealing to the King for more time when Nebuchadnezzar was ready to kill him along with all of his magicians when some couldn't interpret his dream. ( Daniel 2:16). The last verse reads Curse not the king, no not in thy thought; and curse not the rich in thy bedchamber: for a bird of the air shall carry the voice-wisely put.
Part 3
This spirit is not the person, nor is it immortal or eternal, nor does it have a conscious existence when the person dies. Those of us who have the Holy Spirit in us, Romans 8:11, But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you, this is the Spirit of God, for those in Jesus Christ, this happens at resurrection.
In Psalms 16:7 David said the LORD has given him counsel; this is his spirit communicating with God, as Paul calls it in 2 Corinthians 4:16 the inward man. Peter describes it as the hidden man of the heart, 1 Peter 3:4. When God communicates with us, it is not with our mind; it's a Spirit-to-spirit communication.
God gives the human a spirit, some believe it is at conception, Zechariah 12:1, Isaiah 12:5. We know He takes it back at the time of death, Ecclesiastes 12:7. Psalm 104:29, thou takest away their breath, they die, the Hebrew word for breath is ruach, it also means spirit. James 2:26, the body without the spirit is dead. All consciousness ends when we die. Psalm 6:5, Job 14:12-14, Job 17:13-16. Psalm 115:17. Ecclesiastes 9:5-10. We sleep in death until resurrection day, the day of redemption. 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15.
The Bible tells us a spirit can be good, bad, or broken, Psalm 34:18, God cares for us and wants to help mend our brokenness, Isaiah 41:10. When we do not have rule over our spirit, we can go so bad that God turns one over to a reprobate mind as we see in Romans 1:18-32, the door is shut. With God's Spirit, the Holy Spirit, we in our spirit grow in our faith and have comfort in His presence.
See part 4
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." My interpetation: No mean time, cannot work or be done (not of God)
Elder Graves Quoted in Paragraph 1: Line 10-13 , Paragraph 2:Line 1-5
My interpetation:
Coming out of the law in truth meaning victory. 1 Corinthians 15:55 KJV
Elder Graves Quoted Paragraph 3 Line 8-14
My Respond: has blessed me with the opportunity that I have used my gifts to serve other writing comments of my ministry on Elder Graves blog website being displayed.
Colossians 3:17 KJV
And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
Proverbs 22:29 KJV
My interpetation:
Blessed my hands to see God, work, accomplish for me, and prosper. ( Mark 10:43-44, Nehemiah 2:18, Genesis 39:3,6
Genesis 41:43 )
Genesis 41:43 KJV
Elder Graves Defining Excellence Paragraph 2 Line 6-10
My Respond: I have honored God in Fairness and integrity in serving others working hands on and promoting the intellectual, ethical, cultural, emotional, and physical growth of each student.
According to California Department of Education supports high - quality educational programs for California diverse student population through its educational leadership role and places great importance on cultivating a diverse staff that understands and promotes the intellectual, ethical, cultural, emotional, and physical growth of each student.
Elder Graves Quoted Motivations for Christian Excellence
1. God and Jesus are Excellent:
My Respond: As a follower of Christ reflecting his excellence these are my supporting scripture texts Hebrews 12:2 KJV, Hebrews 4:15-16 KJV
Elder Graves Quoted Motivations for Christian Excellence
3. Excellence Encourages Growth:
I Peter 4:10 KJV Allows you listen to God.
Line 8-11 My Respond: I believe fruit can a
That is not the end of the matter however. Jesus promised a ressurectionat John 5:28-29
1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
The clash and contrast between light and darkness is at a fevered pitch in our time. Psalm 7:15 states He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. Sin is a reproach to anyone; Proverbs 14:34 says Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people. Thus the sins of individuals collectively bring down everyone who is not one of God's children.
My own situation has shown me how elderly people who used to be characterized as having a nice personality show their true nature when running out of options in life. This can have the opposite effect on some who were always nasty; and of course the Lord can intervene; as long as their is breath there is hope; or as Ecclesiastes 9:4 states For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Proverbs 9:8 says Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee. Those who God has called and chosen will be drawn through warnings of their sinful state; in fact they will be thankful always to find the remedy as only the sick need a physician ( Luke 5:31). In contrast the wicked cannot love God or rebuke; they will only try to avoid the consequences of their actions through self justification or somehow thinking their "good works outweigh the bad". 2 Corinthians 7:10 says For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. Thus; the wicked through conviction are led to self destruction and the righteous have the opposite fate.
The final battle of Armageddon draws ever nearer. May we all be ready at His coming.
I exceedingly appreciated your reply
As you know, the kings of Israel chosen by GOD they were anointed with oil by the prophets of the Lord.
To be anointed with oil is to be separated as GOD's chosen one- Matthew 25:31-34. Take a look. The true chosen ones of the Lord are prudent and wise, they have lamp to shine as they walk in the world of darkness, and enough oil to keep the lamp burning to meet the Lord, the bridegroom, and be saved. By the way, He said: Revelation 3:11-13:
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no one take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my GOD, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my GOD, and the name of the city of my GOD, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my GOD: and I will write upon him my new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Att all times, let your garments be white, and let oil not be wanting on your head - Ecclesiastes 9:8.
Revelation 19:5-8:
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our GOD, all ye His servants, and ye that fear Him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord GOD Omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Regarding mystery of GOD, I have already commented in prior posts, our Lord JESUS-the Word made flesh- spoke of this in Matthew 11:27, and according His promise, unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance. Hallelujah!.
May our Lord GOD bless and keep us, and give us His protection
Amen
Here is what I understand on Ecclesiastes 9:5.
I will need verse 3 to get the context.
Verse 3. "This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, THAT THERE IS ONE EVENT UNTO ALL:....( There's the evil! ) .."THAT THERE IS ONE EVENT UNTO ALL" This speaks of the mindset and philosophy of man under the sun.
....yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Now Ecclesiastes 9:4-10 continues on with this mindset of man under the sun.
Some say Proverbs is a book of practical wisdom, while Ecclesiastes is a book of speculative wisdom.
Ecclesiastes presents us a naturalistic vision of life-one that sees life through distinctively human eyes.
Perhaps others would like to share their thoughts.
God bless.
Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ. ( Colossians 3:23-24).
These two verses demonstrate to us that work in the secular or "spiritual" realm is to be done with all of our might (following the principal of Ecclesiastes 9:10). Christ actually states that in some cases such as John 4:38 that they have reaped what others have sown. John 4 discusses the conversion of the Samaritan woman (woman at the well) and her evangelistic campaign. In this case she did the sowing and the Disciples reaped the benefits. It is interesting to think that she was the first evangelist listed even before the Disciples were sent out two by two (I think). Even Jesus didn't have to work that hard in that respect; such gratitude for being saved by sins was shown in other women such as Mary Magdeline. Would we all approach the Great Commission with such eagerness.
When it comes to our everyday jobs I am grateful in my situation even with just part time work being all that I can do with other responsibilities that I am surrounded by people that work hard. I work doing food prep in a high school kitchen; and especially with intense State Inspection coming those who would want to mess about won't remain very long. Having supervisors that I respect in each of the other surrounding schools in the District where we are sent on occasion is an added bonus; along with the lady from one of them that joined our team today. There are a number of passages discussing employer and employee relations (in many cases servant and master analogy). Our work ethic isn't a substitute for sharing God's Word; but an opportune moment won't earn any respect if we don't have a foundation of trusted service for the weeks or months before such a conversation can occur.
Perhaps I should have added verse 2 for more context for my post to better understand the evil mentioned of men under the sun.
HERE'S A PICTURE OF MAN'S VAIN MIND.
Ecclesiastes 9:2.
All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath. THIS IS AN EVIL AMONG ALL THINGS THAT ARE DONE UNDER THE SUN, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. Ecclesiastes 9:2-3
Vs 4. For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
The theme here is "the living dog, he will one day parish and never return, as well as the Lion.
However, atleast the dog is alive because according toverse2 "All things come alike to all"
THE VAIN MIND OF THE MEN UNDER THE SUN BELIEVES
( All things come alike to all")
(there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked;)
The life you have now is your portion. It's all you get.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 is commonly used for the belief in soul sleep.
Again, However Ecclesiastes 12:7 says otherwise.
(Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.)
God bless.
S Spencer
You commented Ecclesiastes 9:3-5
Ok.My point is what my Lord JESUS said.Follow me;and let the dead bury their dead-Mat.8:22.In JESUS is life;the LIFE is the light of men, the LIGHT shineth in darkness;and the darkness comprehend it not- John 1:4-5.
Speaking of dog,what matters and prevails is what is written in Isaiah 56:10-11: 10 His watchmen are blind:they are all ignorant,they are all dumb dogs,they cannot bark;sleeping,lying down,loving to slumber.
11Yea,they are greedy dogs which can never have enough,and they are SHEPHERDS(Pastors)that cannot understand:they all look to their own way,every one for his gain,from his quarter.
And my Lord JESUS warned:Re.22:15-For without are dogs,and sorcerers,and whoremongers,and murderers,and idolaters,and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
And Paul warned:Beware of dogs... Philippians 3:2
JESUS said:Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts,murders, adulteries,fornications,thefts,false witness,blasphemies-Mat.15:19
Their throat is an open sepulchre;with their tongues they have used deceit;the poison of asps is under their lips-Ro.3:13:
Death and life are in the power of the tongue:and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
GOD warned Adam:Gen.2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil( Genesis 3:1),thou shalt not eat of it:for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Daniel prophesied:Many that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,some to everlasting life,and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
It because dust is the food of the Serpent-Gen.3:17
The King shall say unto them on His right hand,Come, ye blessed of my Fathe
Those who believe in Soul Sleep misinterpret Ecclesiastes 9:3-5.
This is speaking of the philosophy of the "man under the sun." They say a man is just like a dog, "When he dies, that's it."
Verse 3 says this saying or belief is "an evil among all things that are done under the sun,
Ecclesiastes 9:3 THIS IS AN EVIL AMONG ALL THINGS THAT ARE DONE UNDER THE SUN,
(THAT THERE IS ONE EVENT UNTO ALL:)
yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
4, For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5, For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
( THIS "THOUGHT" IS AN EVIL AMONG ALL THINGS)
The writer believes in absent of the body is to be present with the Lord.
Look ahed at Ecclesiastes 12:7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
God bless.
If I were an unbeliever & continued to resist the Gospel of Salvation, knowing that only death & no more was the end of my mortal existence, I would live it up even more while I still have breath - for tomorrow I die & will be no more. What then is the Gospel that we preach? For what purpose did Christ have to come & die? Why did He have to bear the sins of the world with God's Wrath/Punishment, if the unbeliever has none of it to confront him after death? And lastly, if death alone is the punishment, then both believer & unbeliever alike have to face death one day if the Lord tarries. Now if the believer by his faith & God's Mercy never ever tastes of physical death (maybe he gets to old age & then raptured), then maybe there is some small message of hope to the unbeliever in such a Gospel.
Thanks, brother, I hope you did not take Greek Philosophy personally. I understand the Hebrew word nephesh, it can be any being, dog, cat, or cow. It can also mean a soul, a living being, a dead being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, and emotion, basically who we are. When I said the spirit of life, I did not mean it had anything to do with the Spirit of God, sorry for the misunderstanding. I meant spirit/breath as the word neshamah used in Job 27:3.
I understand our being or soul is the same thing it is who we are and who will someday be with Jesus and see God's face. But that day is the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30. In Scripture in death there is no remembrance of us, Psalm 6:5. In death we lie down until, Job 14:12-14 the grave is our house and our bed Job 17:13-16.
We will see death and the grave and our soul will be there Psalm 89:48 and this Ecclesiastes 9:5-10. I know our understanding may be different, but I do not see in Scripture where we or any part of us is immortal until resurrection day 1 Cor. 15:52-53 we will be raised from the grave, us, our soul/being, who we are.
The definition of death is the separation of the soul from the body I do not see in Scripture. It does say there is no knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, death, Ecclesiastes 9:10. I do not see that has changed. I know many understand as you and I hope you take this as just a little of where my understanding comes from, for it does not affect salvation.
The way I see it, we are waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with His reward of eternal life, either we will be alive or asleep in the grave.
God bless,
RLW
Verse 4 seems to indicate that this person is near unto death and is further supported by verse 6 where it seems the pit of Sheol is nigh. We see that those in that state are "cut off from thy hand" therefore there is no more mercy from God at that point. We are reminded of Isaiah 38:18 and many other passages which show that the dead will not praise God (verse 10). Furthermore; destruction and forgetfulness also describe the fate of those in hell (verse 11-12). Those things which affected our emotions and desires on earth ( Ecclesiastes 9:5) will not exist as the body returns to the dust. However; the soul lives on and for the unregenerate in conscious torment (see Lazarus and the unnamed rich man ( Luke 16:19-31).
Nonetheless; we must seek His face while He can be found. Job's state wasn't hopeless; and neither is anyone in Christ who truly repents and seeks the Lord. The enemy certainly can have us ensnared in sin; or oppressing us with feelings of hopelessness. We need to confess sin and seek His face; as well as trusting His promises despite circumstances. That is good advice surely in war; famine and other horrendous circumstances that bring us near death as well as seeing death all around us. These passages should remind us to seek those who may be disfigured by disease and to demonstrate God's love through service wherever we can.
My understanding is like Adam's, just to add to what Adam said. You should study on your own, there are different views.
The belief that our soul is immortal comes from ancient Greek philosophy. The meaning of death, being a separation of the soul from the body also came from ancient Greek philosophy that is different than what we see in the Old Testament.
It is Platonism, Augustine of Hippo held this philosophy. He was a theologian, and philosopher with a strong influence on doctrines in the church, in the fourth and early fifth century.
Gen. 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. The spirit/breath gives us life.
The Hebrew word nephesh means a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, and emotion. The Greek word psuche means the soul, life, self, and a person's distinct identity. If you study them, it is also used for all living beings' fish, animals, birds, and man.
Physically we live AND die, eternally we live OR die, our choice of the gift of God that is through Jesus Christ our Lord, eternal life, or die the second death.
The word spirit, the Bible writers used the Hebrew word ruach meaning breath, wind, spirit, or the Greek word pneuma also meaning wind, breath, spirit, this life-giving breath/spirit is what goes back to God.
We are buried dead, mortal, in corruption and we are raised immortally incorruptible 1 Corinthians 15:42-44. That is when we will be absent from this flesh body.
All consciousness ends when we die. Psalm 6:5 Job 14:12-14 Job 17:13-16 Psalm 89:48 Psalm 115:17 Ecclesiastes 9:5-10
We sleep in death until resurrection day, the day of redemption. 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 Ephesians 4:30
Our spirit (breath) given to us by God is what keeps us alive, and we are a living soul. Ecclesiastes 12:7 Psalm 104:29 Psalm 146:4 James 2:26
May this help your study.
God bless,
RLW
When studying the story of Peter and His denial of Christ; the first thing that tends to come up is the self confidence of Peter and his arrogance in thinking he was stronger than he actually was. That is certainly a valid point; although it could be said for all the Disciples at that time who ran off. What is also evident is the sense of complacency; or predictability which they all thought could be depended on; closing their hearts and thus blinding their minds to the frequent prophetic warnings from Christ about his death that was soon to come.
The same thing applies to us as believers; for instance if we have had a long season (as in this country) of relative freedom. Should organized governmental persecution; war, famine or another pestilence come are we too set in our ways to be able to endure?
There is; of course the inevitable day of death; either for ourselves or others we know. Ecclesiastes 9:13 states that it comes as a snare and on an unknown schedule. Getting our affairs in order as a believer involves the daily disciplines and working toward His goals which involves; one way or another fulfilling the Great Commission. The disciples were to learn what was needed to begin growing the church; and were given the Comforter and thus His presence to guide them ( John 14:26). The next major change was after Paul was martyred; as well as Peter. They both warned of the wolves in the flock who would soon be preaching falsehood. Satan is constantly to be watched for; both causing falsehood as well as persecution to affect the Body of believers.
Just as we would prepare for a natural disaster; it pays to be proactive with prayer and our devotional life. It strengthens us with our trust in the Lord through scripture meditation and memorization; but is also necessary as a witness to others; both lost individuals and those caught in life's unexpected trials. Wisdom with physical resources means we can aid others
Then notice it says Ecclesiasticus 32:7-18, is in context, also saying " do not sin by proud speech"
Doesn't that point to another scripture Ecclesiastes 9:10, Deuteronomy 8:18,
it's GOD that gives us abilities
Hopefully this is helpful
We see crying in verse 2 and singing in verses 7-8; finally praise in verse 9 with the resulting appreciation of mercy and truth (v.10) with His name exalted in the last verse. These are solid Biblical approaches to persecution; as we see when Paul was incarcerated in Acts 16:25-28 along with Silas; it in fact led to deliverance.
Ecclesiastes 9:12 and a host of other verses describe men being caught in nets due to their own sin. (see Job 18:5-9; Isaiah 24:18). "Vengeance is mine; I shall repay" is in Deuteronomy 32:35 and quoted in Romans 12:19. It is important to remember David's attitude toward "God's anointed" (see 1 Samuel 24). Even when Saul died David still mourned over him. This attitude of loving our enemies should characterize our lives while we still proclaim the truth that indeed the Day of His wrath is coming; and only through the cross will we escape.
I; however question that in light of verse 14 of the same chapter. This indicates that their robes were washed and made white in the blood of the Lamb. It would seem that there is a link here to those who had stained garments such as Sardis church in Rev. 3:4; with a further admonition in the next verse of being victorious. In light of those who are in white and unwrinkled garments in Ephesians 5:27 and even the admonition of Ecclesiastes 9:8 as well as possibly the parable of the wise virgins it seems like a strong possibility that in the first part of the Tribulation some may be left behind who are currently compromised and worldly. In other words; that would make the Rapture a reward issue; rather than merely a salvation one.
At some point of course there will be those who are martyred for not taking the mark of the Beast. That appears to be after this event if we take things mainly chronologically. Even in that case; we need to remember by the sixth seal everyone is aware of God an Christ and they go to the caves to hide from their presence ( Rev. 6:15). That is a far cry from when eventually they fight against Christ at Armageddon. My point though is that there will be no need to preach as we do now that Christ is Lord but a declaration of judgment ensuing; and the Kingdom arriving on earth will be proclaimed. We see this also once angels and apparently an eagle go throughout the earth admonishing man to worship the Creator; not to take the mark; and the woes are given to Babylon. ( Rev. 14:6-12). Notice that at the end of this passage those who are about to die are mentioned; thus bolstering another group of martyrs after the one mentioned in Revelation 7.
Not worth arguing about; let us all be Bereans.
Agape
Genesis 5:24, Hebrews 11:5, 1Samuel 15:35, Job 10:21,22, Job 34:22, Job 38:17, Revelation 2:7, Luke 23:33-43, Luke 16:19-31, Psalms 6:5, Psalms 48:14, Psalms 49:14, Ecclesiastes 8:8, Isaiah 38:18, Romans 7, 2Corinthians 7:10,
Psalms 56:13, Psalms 89:48, Proverbs 10:2, Proverbs 14:27, Ecclesiastes 9:4,
Psalms 116:15, Proverbs 14:32, Isaiah 9:2, Isaiah 25:8, Hosea 13:14, Luke 18:33, John 8:51, John 5:24, Acts 2:24-27, Romans 5:10-21, Romans 6:2-23, Romans 8, 2Timothy 1:10, 1John 3:14,
Jeremiah 21:8, Ezekiel 18:31,32, 1Corinthians 15:20-58, Revelation 1:18,
Hebrews 2:9-18, Revelation 20, Revelation 21,
Here are some scriptures on hope, when & if anyone needs it:
Psalms 31:24, Psalms 33:18, Psalms 38:15, Psalms 71:5, Psalms 78:7, Psalms 119:114, Psalms 130:7, Psalms 146:5, Jeremiah 17:7, Ecclesiastes 9:4, Lamentations 3:21-26, Joel 3:16, Romans 5:5, 2Corinthians 1:7,
Psalms 147:11, Romans 12:12, 1Timothy 1:1, Psalms 139, Romans 8:14-39
Romans 15:4, Romans 15:13,
Hope these are encouraging
Soul life or breath life. Animals have body and soul life also then the spirit if born
Again goes back to God who gave it. Also look at Ecclesiastes 9:5+6. Some
Believe soul and spirit are same biblically we are created formed made breath
In man which starts when ababy takes its first breath has nothing to do with
Eternal spirit from God his gift when born again. That's why Ephesians says we
Are born first time without God and without hope until born again.