Discuss Hebrews 12 Page 4

Psalm 68:6 talks about setting the lonely in families; and Psalm 27:10 says that even if parents forsake us God will take us up (rough meaning).

From my experience; it seems in the Reformed circles the family unit is held in high esteem and in the denomination I was last in before I had to move there basically was a network of extended families that pretty much arranged for favorable meetings for young people to fellowship and often marry those who were at these events; thus pretty much continuing the expansion of the church. Other denominations tend to be more or less dominated by those in their own nuclear families and tend somewhat less to invite strangers into conversations or to their homes.

Whatever the accuracy of my own assessment; we are adopted sons and daughters according to Romans in many passages; Ephesians 1 and Galatians 4:6-7. It is commonplace; nonetheless whether with our blood relatives or church family to default to hanging out with those we find interesting in one form or another and often neglecting the ministry such as rebuke; exhortation and encouragement when necessary. We see passages such as "He rebukes all those He loves" ( Rev. 3:19; Hebrews 12:6 and others) and tend to only think of God Himself doing that work. However; we are to exercise such behaviors as 2 Timothy 4:2 instructs us to. Rejoice with those who rejoice and weep likewise ( Romans 12:15). To behave this way first we need to have a listening mindset; rather than spend much time with needless chatter when we fellowship. Again; the reformers seem to have a better handle on that with some not allowing any discussion apart from the Lord on Sundays. I'm not setting a legalistic mandate here; but suggesting that such boundaries eliminate useless banter; and worse a sin of omission not ministering to those in need who are too polite to interrupt discussion about sports teams; work exploits or just general complaining of the state of affairs in the world today.

Pt 9

Do all believers repent at the end before death? The answer is no, they don't.

The parable of the 10 virgins tells us that if just before Jesus comes for us (this can be also regarded as an individual departure through physical death as well as the rapture of the church as a whole) we must have light(sanctification) in ourselves. Otherwise we will not enter the marriage ( Matthew 25:1-12). Read what Jesus told them, He doesn't know them. But they were virgins(sanctified), they were expecting the Lord with the rest. Yes but they had a troubled christian life and they were not ready when Jesus came. Jesus doesn't recognize them, He only recognizes His children who look like Him in the character, it is them that He considers true children, the rest are just "bastards", Hebrews 12:7-8.

In the parable of the vine, John 15:1-8, in verse 2 says "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." in verse 6 says, "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.". I don't think a further explanation is needed

Finally in 2 Peter 1:5-11 what christians should try to succeed in their christian life. in verse 10 says, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall"

Make our calling sure? Doing these things we will not fail? And here we come to what really all that is about.

It all begins with the relationship between grace and good works. There is where it all starts. Many christians through the ages could not understand that relationship. People like Luther even rejected Jame's epistle as fake because it didn't fit their beliefs.. For some grace has nothing to do with any human work at all. So they rejected good works, so what a man does bad or good has no consequence to their salvation.

Introduction to the concept of eternal assurance; "once saved always saved".

I have seen currently individuals who are knowledgeable in the Word and who seem to love the Lord who argue that we can lose our salvation. I don't feel comfortable fellowshipping where that is the standard doctrine; although the conviction level for holiness seems commendable to me. Nonetheless; the enemy an cause havoc for those who would be in despair and perhaps self destructive over that type of message. Equally as concerning are those who are allowing certain sins; particularly those who support a lifestyle of sin in the church today holding onto what many call a "hyper grace" mentality. First and foremost; of course we are to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith and DO something about it if not. ( 2 Cor. 13:5). Those who are His; of course willl hear His voice ( John 10:16) and be taught by God ( John 6:45).

Blessed assurance is something which must transcend this world; and our love for God supersede any other affections and loyalties for us to be a true disciple of God ( Matt. 10:37-38). If we love Him we will obey His commandments ( John 14:15); this is a verse I have repeated quite often lately on this site.

I would make a basic comment at present that those who are His sense His love; and also recognize that when being chastised ( Hebrews 12:6). When the Spirit is grieved ( Eph 4:30-31) a true follower of Christ will be aware of it; after all He has made His (actually OUR) abode in these individuals ( John 14:23). It is also true that those who are unbelievers cannot love God but they certainly can fear Him. In today's society; however it is likely that such boldness in rebellion in the world is tied into the lack of fear of the Lord in churches. The compromised Gospel and lifestyles today I will tackle in future posts.

The book of John is something I have already covered sometime last year in detail as to the many examples proving Predestination.

Amen, Brother Ronald Whittemore:

WE are saved yet by FIRE ---- 1 Corinthians 3:13

Our God is a consuming FIRE ---- Hebrews 12:29

God is the WORD --- the word is GOD ---- John 1:1

I will baptise YOU with the HOLY GHOST and FIRE

You are BORN AGAIN by the WORD of GOD

Every time we read and study the WORD we are being judged and baptised with the FIRE OF THE LORD

FIRE is the judgement of GOD

Psalms 37:28 For the Lord loveth JUDGEMENT ....

2 Corinthians 5:10 .... we all must appear before he judgement seat .....

1 Peter 4:17 For the TIME IS COME that JUDGEMENT must begin at the HOUSE of the LORD

Hebrews 3:6 But Christ --- the WORD --- the SEED ---- the FIRE ---who is a son over his OWN HOUSE, whose House we are ...

The WORD of GOD is the FIRE OF GOD

And they were CAST ALIVE into the lake of fire --- the JUDGING WORD'S of GOD ----

You are save and born again by FIRE and WATER --- the living fire and the living water ---- the LAKE of FIRE ----

God bless you.

Jimbob no offence to you but also fire is just symbolic language....As Rev. 11:5 tells us if any man hurts any of these fire comes out of their mouths and destroys ( kills their enemies )....But its not a literal fire but a spiritual fire which is the H.G. AS OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE.. Hebrews 12:29 kjv....That is gonna consume mans evil and adamic nature ....If ya don't understand symbolic language you will not see that the Kingdoms of this world are gonna become the kingdoms of our lord and his Christ...Thus the clouds are just symbolic language for folks that have that living water..That latter rain doctrine which is spirit...That is gonna flood this earth with his spirit....I will pour out of my spirit on all flesh... Joel 2:28..And Isaiah 11..Of course this knowledge he saw covering this earth was an intimacy....Resulting in a birth of Christ in us....As Jeremiah 30:6 ...he saw all men in travail and birth pains...Thats y he has to know us that the good seed of the sower will be sown in our hearts....And she brought forth a man child that is gona rule all nations....Now y wd we need to be caught up to to the literal clouds when the kingdoms of this world are gona become the Kingdoms of our lord and his Christ...And the manchild which is the H.G.is gonna rule all nations....And jesus tells us of that spirit of truth that is gonna reprove this whole world of sin and judgement and righteousness....Thus a literal rapture wd kill all these scriptures of the earth at rest and becoming full of his Glory....Seed time and harvest for ever .... Isaiah 6:3 The angels are saying Holy Holy Holy Lord God Almighty for the whole earth is full of his GLORY....Jimbob yes truth is important but if we took your doctrine of a literal rapture in literal clouds we wd have to eliminate 90% of the bible....And there wd be no need for the manchild to Rule all nations....Or for the angel to preach the everlasting Gospel to all that dwell on the earth... Rev 14:6...ok lemme go...Jim GBU.

Jimbob....The clouds are just symbolic language for ppl that have that living water as Jude tells us....Some folks are clouds with water and some folk are clouds without water....Meaning no H.G....No fruit unto God..And 2 Peter also mentions wells without water....Clouds they are driven by the tempests for ever...Jimbob clouds are just symbolic language....It don't mean literal clouds....And there is no physical rapture...As Rev.11:15...The Kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our lord and his Christ and he shall reign for ever and ever....There is no way we can get physical Rapture outta of that....A spiritual rapture yes but not a physical rapture....As God's Kingdom is spirit....As Jesus said the Kingdom is gonna be with in you....Right here on this earth....Abide in me and i in you....God is gonna send the manchild to rule and teach all nations,Thus there is absolutely no need for a physical rapture....They shall ALL be taught of God... Isaiah 54:13....Under this NEW Covenant....On the day of Pentacost they were all caught up in the air...But that mighty rushing wind was the H.G....Their bodies didnt go anywhere....Paul writes to some You are come unto my Zion the city of the living word Hebrews 12:22....But their bodies didnt go anywhere....He was writting to them....It was just in the spirit....Jesus wants to meet us in the Spirit not in the air....But Air and Clouds are symbolic language for the Spirit and ppl...Jim can you imagine folks in the literal air... womans dresses wd be flying up....Some men wd be having a heart attack b/c of the hights....And there is no oxigen up in the clouds higher up...God don't want no kind of foolishness like that...ok lemme go....I will pour out of my spirit on all flesh... Joel 2:28 kjv thats how he is coming....51 times in the bible it says by my spirit saith the lord...Alex Gbu Jimbob....As that which is born of the spirit is spirit....Impling Gods Spirit is gonna be born in us via his seed the word.

Brother Adam:

2 Peter 3:7

Brother David has made several comments about God's words being parables.

You have said God's words are often metaphors.

Revelation says his words are symbols.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and earth ....

There are LITERAL heavens and earth; but, they are also metaphors and symbols in a parable.

heaven and earth are MAN, earth being the carnal form of man where deception rules, heaven being the born again man where truth and life rule.

We are the GARDEN OF (eden) GOD where the ONE TREE that bears BOTH the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL is in the MIDST thereof.

Man; made of EARTH (dust), has to be destroyed, and become a creation of Spirit, the new heaven and new earth.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and earth, which are now, by the SAME WORD (that made them earth) are keep in store (since the day or resurrection) reserved unto fire against the day of JUDGEMENT ...

For you and I and all others alive at this given moment; we are being JUDGED by the written word's of God, if you don't believe his words: DEATH and the GRAVE; if you believe HIS WORDS, you become a SON OF GOD.

Christ is THE WORD OF JUDGEMENT, and the FIRE (a metaphor and symbol) that does the JUDGING.

Judges 6:21 And the angel of the Lord (Christ) put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touch the FLESH (dust of the earth) and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up FIRE out of the ROCK (symbolic of Christ) and CONSUMED the FLESH (dust of the earth) and unleavened cakes ......

Christ was the FIRE in the bush in the wilderness, he was the ROCK in the wilderness.

Hebrews 12:29 Our God is a CONSUMING FIRE

Christ is THE WORD

Your being JUDGED NOW BY the WORD and FIRE, and if you will JUDGE YOURSELF NOW; by God's words, you want be judged with the world.

1 Corinthians 11:31 If we would judge ourselves NOW, we should not be judged.

John 12:48 .... the words I have spoken (from Genesis thru Revelation), the same will judge him .....

God Bless YOU!

( Matthew 18:6, NLT)

6.But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea.

-This bible verse speaks of false prophets or preachers that miss lead the church of God.

The false preachers have turned the gospel of God to of no effects.

The false preacher when you read the word of God you will notice that they haven't be sent but have sent themselves. Hence the message they preach is made up and under demonic influence.

-Jesus the son of God is saying this to those false preachers who have no fear of God and don't understand that God is the creator of heaven and earth and it is He who made us and those false Preacher it is better for them to have a millstone hang around their neck and them to drown into the sea than be in the hands of God who is a consuming fire Hebrews 12:29

This bible verse has no reference to Judas but point out the little ones are children in faith

Please Pray for understanding which Cames from God

Yes we are assigned to wrath...As Jesus said every sinner will have his part in the lake of fire....Which is his baptism of the H.G. and FIRE....The only way his vengence ( his wrath ) can be satisfied is by the lake of fire....His wrath is his love whom the lord loveth he chastens.... Hebrews 12 :8...If ye be without chastisement then are ye bastards and not sons....But we cannot tell ppl we are not assigned to wrath....When ye say things like that you are in essence saying we don't need his baptism of the H.G. AND FIRE...Nor his lake of fire....Jesus said every sinner MUST have his part in the lake of FIRE....Which is his baptism of the H.G. and fire.....Then and only then are we made free from his wrath....YA GOT TO RIGHTY DIVIDE THE WORD OF GOD

Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire...Our names are written in the book of life when we are baptised with the H.G. and fire...That New BIRTH IS WHEN His wrath is satisfied when we are washed in his blood... That NEW Covenant in his blood is the book of life....Simply b/c he wrote this book with his own blood....

Behold i send the Promise of my father upon you... Luke 24:49...Which was baptism of the H.G. AND FIRE.....The only thing that satisfies his wrath....We cannot do away with his baptism of the H.G. and fire.....Thats y he is saying every sinner has to have his part in the lake of fire....As our God is a consuming fire that has to consume our old evil adamic nature....

Jesus is a man of war...there is vengence in his heart... Psalms 55:21....Thus his wrath....His words were softer then oil but war was in his heart and his words were smother then butter but they were as drawn swords....Thus we see that there is war in his heart...Vengence ...thus wrath....But whom the lord loveth he chastens....Thus his wrath is his love for humanity...But if there was no wrath no, No chastisement then we wd be bastards and not sons... Hebrews 12:10....

Thank you David0920, I agree again with what you've shared here. And the examples you gave of Ruth & Lazarus do clearly illustrate the Gospel message or of our release of sin's deathly grip on our lives. Indeed, to other folk, there may be elements within those accounts that will leap out & speak to them in other ways, such as: faithfulness, devotion, singlemindedness, etc. To each one, the Spirit will speak & touch on those points from the Word that are most necessary for HIS Work to be carried out in their lives.

But also what interested me from your comment was your point 2, "We are to interpret Scripture with Scripture." Looking at that statement, who could disagree with you, as that is one of the primary ways of really understanding the biblical accounts, getting them in correct perspective & that which gives a fuller understanding of the Truth. But at the risk of offending some here, we often read comments such as a recent one: stating that the Lake of Fire "as being God Himself since God is a consuming fire" (here we get two Scriptures that reveal Truth: one referenced to Revelation 20:14 & the other to Hebrews 12:29). So now we get another example of someone showing his version of 'Scripture interpreting Scripture'. Is this then a case of Scripture interpreting Scripture? It is true, 'Fire' is common to both verses, but isn't the promise of an eternal Lake of Fire given to all "not found written in the book of life", rather than Fire being God Himself & by extension, God ridding the filth of all found there & finally saving them, as going through fire for cleansing? How we interpret this Truth can give totally opposite meanings which not only distorts the Word but leads the unlearned into confusion & a false understanding.

So this was the point I was making: that there is a correct method of comparing Scripture to Scripture, and I couldn't discern your position on this, or was it just a general post to all of us to correctly interpret the Bible?

Hi Marty. This Hebrews 12:14 verse is written to Christians (of mainly Jewish origin), to pursue not only peace with all men (not just Christians), and lest they think that a peaceable state of living is sufficient to gain God's pleasure in them, the writer says, "and holiness without which no man shall see the Lord".

So how to explain this to an unbeliever? An unbeliever may have some opinions, but usually 'holiness' is beyond their understanding. When sharing the Gospel with him, the whole focus must be on our sinfulness, our wretched hell-bound state before God & nothing we can ever do could make that great payment that would absolve us from all guilt & judgement. I'm sure you have shared the Gospel in this way, with supporting Scriptures, but he may ask, 'what then - what comes after I confess my sin & sinful state & receive God's forgiveness based on His Son's paying the price I couldn't pay?'

The next step for a new believer is to be baptized: a public testimony to both himself before God & to others that he has left his old sinful life & choosing to be bound to Jesus Christ through His death & resurrection, identifying only to him. He is then taught more & more from the Word, especially focussing on the Gift of the Holy Spirit which is given to all who are joined to Christ, sealing them as God's precious children. The Holy Spirit is not an inactive force or a feeling a believer must have, but He is the very presence of God within him that will accomplish all of God's Will in him & through him. And one of the very first things that will be preeminent in the heart & life of this believer, is the Holy Spirit's moving in Him to be Christ-like; i.e. dealing with sin, yearning God-wards, new hopes, new driven life - all demonstrating the sanctifying Work of the Spirit. 'Holiness' then, is the 'sanctified life': the separated life (accomplished by God & pursued by the believer). If he has no desire to pursue it, his salvation is spurious & eternal life absent.

Hiya Barbara...Lemme give ya my slant on the lake of fire...And Rev 20:15...One of my favorite scriptures...And Hebrews 12:29....Our God is a consuming fire...and Luke 12:49....I come to bring fire on the earth...Which is his baptism of the H.G. and fire...Which answers to the book of life that NEW covenant in his blood...Plz listen with your heart to Rev 20:15...If any man was not found written in the book of life ( that New Covenant in his blood) he was cast into the lake of fire...Which is that fire that Jesus said he wanted to bring on the earth...That new covenant in his blood...Remember our God is a consuming fire which is baptism of the H.G. and fire...

..... Malachi 3:2 kjv....Who shall abide the day of his coming...( 2 nd coming )...Who shall stand when he appears for he shall be as a REFINERS FIRE and fullers soap a cleasing fire...That FIRE that Jesus wants to bring to all the world...H.G. FIRE...He is gonna wash everyone of us with his spirit...Which is the H.g. the gift of God....I will pour out of my Spirit on all flesh..

.....Thus there will be no more death or hell...As our God is a consuming fire that is gonna consume satan and his angels...Which is mans carnal minds...Satans seat..reAnd that y we must be bornagain of that incorruptible seed which are the words of that NEW COVENANT that he wrote with his own blood....That book of life....Thats y the scrip. is saying if anyman was not found written in the book of life ( washed in the blood of the lamb ) ....He was cast into the lake of fire...Baptism of the H.G and fire...I will pour out of my spirit on ALL FLESH...Thats y Jesus was saying if I

be lifted up ( the blood ) I will draw ALL MEN unto me.

.....Thats y Jesus was saying Every sinner will have his part in the lake of fire...O thank you Jesus...Its God that is that LAKE OF FIRE....Thru baptism of the H.G AND FIRE...Remember Jesus rebuked James and John when they wanted to call down a literal fire on the samartians....Our God is th fire

Brother S Spencer:

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christ (Christ is the word, so there shall arise false words), and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; in so much that, IF IT WERE POSSIBLE (but is not possible), they should deceive the very elect.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, WHO WERE ORDAINED TO THIS CONDEMNATION .....

God says he himself has caused this and brought it to pass.

Luke 22:31 ....Satan has desired to have you, THAT HE MAY SIFT YOU as wheat ....

Luke 22:32 But I WILL PRAY FOR YOU: that your faith (the faith of Christ) fail not .... IT'S CHRIST'S WORKS ....

Isaiah 28:21 ....that he may do HIS WORK, HIS STRANGE WORK; and bring TO PASS his act, HIS STRANGE ACT.

Isaiah 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his maker! Let the potsherds strive with the potsherds of the earth, Shall the clay say to him that fashioned it, What makest thou? OR THY WORK, He hath no hands?

Isaiah 48:10 Behold I have refined the, but not with silver, I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

Matthew 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself; but endureth for awhile, and when tribulations and persecutions ariseth because of the WORD, by and by he is offended.

Christ had many disciples, but when the words became to hard for them they went the way of the world.

Matthew 13:23 ..... and false prophets, shall show great signs and wonders .....

Revelation .... and with him the false prophet ....were cast alive into the a lake of fire burning with BRIMSTONE

Isaiah 30:33 ....the breath of the Lord, like a stream of BRIMSTONE, doeth kindle it.

Isaiah 33:14 ...Who among us SHALL DWELL with the devouring fire ( Hebrews 12:29)? who amongst us SHALL DWELL with everlasting burning?

Isaiah 9:5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise and garments rolled in blood, but this (battle) shall be with burning and fuel of fire.

Isaiah 9:18 ...and the people shall be the fuel of the fire .....

God Bless YOU!

"I never knew you." ( Matthew 7:23). Such verses bring a shiver up our spines; when we understand the grace of God toward our souls if we are truly saved. Such an intimate knowledge can be described best on a human level with that of a husband and wife as they properly interact serving and growing together in their designated roles.

This type of relationship is best described as God loving us DESPITE who we are which is unlike seemingly endless Christian songs that somehow lead us to believe that He loves us no matter what we do or who we are. Ultimately; God did rescue us from sin and sacrificed His Son even though we were "enemies of God" (Phillipians 3:18 and many other references). But He foreknew us as being "conformed to the image of His Son" ( Romans 8:29 and again numerous other verses on that subject). He only "knows" us therefore if He can see His Son in us and we are truly "seated in heavenly places" ( Eph. 2:6). As I have said many times recently; He chastises all those He loves (see Proverbs 3:12; Hebrews 12:6-7). What many don't read is the following verse ( Heb. 12:8) that states in that we are illegitimate children (I will avoid the harsher term KJV has as I don't want to be flagged but it pays to read it). We are; in fact either children of God or of the Devil. That was made quite clear to the Pharisees ( John 8:44).

Such passages shouldn't be foreign to us as parents. If we truly love our own offspring we don't want them flailing about in this world of endless dangers; toils and snares without discipline and guidane although sadly many parents even in the church are sorely deficient in parenting skills.

In our personal lives; and I am speaking to myself here-we need to be aware of our weaknesses (with me it tends to be obsessiveness with hobbies; music etc) and learn to trust Him to guide us so that we can do all things for the glory of God. ( 1 Cor. 10:31). Such is the case with this site as well. It is not just for my ranting.

Further thoughts on God working things out for the good.

Scripture; of course is our guide to all truth ( 2 Tim. 3:16). The overarching theme of the Bible is God's big picture from the Creation to the downfall of man; to final restoration of both body and soul of mankind; as well as nature and in the end the whole universe. We certainly can look at God putting Satan on a string who puts men on a string. When our identity is in Christ as His adopted sons and daughters ( Romans 8:14-17 etc) then we are part of the whole army of God and hence we shall rule and reign with Christ someday ( 2 Tim. 2:12; and parts of Revelation). We are part of those who are of the great "cloud of witnesses" ( Hebrews 12:1 which summarizes Hebrews 11 the "heroes" of the faith. What is done to us in some sense is done to Christ Himself ( Matt. 25:40). Whoever destroys the Temple of God will himself be destroyed ( 1 Corinthians 3:17); and blessed are those saints who die in the Lord ( Psalm 115:16; again see Revelation)

Hence; death itself is to be something looked forward to ( Philippians 1:23). It is indeed the "last enemy that shall be destroyed" ( 1 Cor. 15:26). In the meantime; as Paul also stated "I die daily" ( 1 Cor. 15:31). In Christ we can appreciate the experience of a slow death of the outer man so that the inner man can reach glorification. Keep in mind that it is the health and vitality of our soul that counts for eternity; all men will be Resurrected but it is the TYPE of resurrection that is important.

None of this; certainly takes away from the wisdom that we should have in regard to avoiding problems when we are able and it doesn't contradict God's plans for us; or of course for troubles that result from our own sin ( James 1:14-15). May it be that it won't happen to us as believers but sadly that's what it takes for some ( 1 Cor. 11:30 for the extreme example of an early earthly demise in certain cases). Better saved through the fire than not at all ( 1 Cor 3:15

I also like Hebrew 13:2 I try to think about that one and Isaiah has a lot against the one would be 55-6 have a good day take care

I so enjoy reading the bible evert day

Perhaps Psalm 110:3 is the verse I wanted to quote. Obedience; as Jesus Himself said occurs because we love Him ( John 14:15).

Perhaps also the concept of doing things as James states is a result of faith WITH works; without such it is not true faith at all.

All works of course originate from our heart; and it's condition of being either good or evil (good fruit vs bad) as the input result in the output and the "reward" in it. So for the unregenerate the law may constrain sin; for instance; but as Psalm 119 illustrates we learn to LOVE the law even though it is something without His strength that we cannot obey. So it is the same God who is present and seen in some form who we all interact with. Hebrews 6:4 makes it evident that there is some experiential commonality as it were with all men; but the difference is having the Lord make residence in our hearts vs. being on the outside looking in as it were. Admittedly these are tough concepts and no matter how much intellectual understanding there is we have certain things hidden to us as to the full meaning ( Deut. 29:29). Our own worst enemy is; of course our own self and sin within. Saints of God understand this and therefore He "chastises all He loves" ( Hebrews 12:6). This differentiates Judas Iscariot from Peter in regard to the betrayal and the end result; for example. In the short term; it may be hard to discern the wheat from the tares but for many time will prove what fruit is present in their lives although sadly it takes until the end of someone's life for it to be clear (and that is almost always bad news). In the end we can only exhort; and rebuke and hopefully some will be retrieved from "out of the fire" as it were. Those who are His own learn to listen to the HARD verses in scripture and are offended when a lukewarm message is being offered or it is compromised in any way.

Hope some of this helps. Agape. Rich P

2Timothy 4:5, 1Peter 2:19,

Sometimes Hebrews 12:7

Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13, James 5:11,

Hopefully these are encouraging to you, as your words & scriptures were to me, thank you

Revelation 4:5, Revelation 3, Revelation 5:6, Psalms 104:4, Hebrews 12:9, Hebrews 1:7,

Hebrews 1:13,14,

Hopefully these are helpful

Story of Job 1, was encouragement to me after loss of worldly riches. I was amazed after he suffered so much loss he (Job) was able to say: Job 1:21,

Also Proverbs 23:4,5, Hebrews 12:27, Psalms 12:5,

I hope these are helpful

I believe in eternal security of a believer, once saved always saved. (John5:24), and can never lose their salvation ( John 10: 27-29), believers who wilfully sin after salvation without repenting of that sin may come under the chastisement of the Lord ( Hebrews 12:4-8) but can never cease being saved, sons of God. Anyone believing otherwise never had salvation. Believing in eternal security is part of salvation.

Luke 16:31, Matthew 6:24, Hebrews 12:27-29, Matthew 6, noting 6:32-34, noting Luke 12:30,31,32,33,34,

Proverbs 4:5-27, James 1:5, Ecclesiastes 7:12, Proverbs 112:5,

Proverbs 14:9,

Proverbs 8,

Hopefully these are encouraging as you pray & helpful as you're seeking GOD. Thank you for trusting us with your prayer needs

Alex1939...The New Jerusalem is the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of God is gonna be with in us in the form of the H.G...The manchild which is gonna rule all nations... Hebrews 12:22...But you are come unto Mount Zion the city of the living God..( the kingdom ) That Heavenly Jerusalem...to a great host of angels...James not only will the New Jerusalem touch the New Earth its gonna be married to Jesus...I saw the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven prepared as a bride adorned for her husband..

.....Rev.11:15...The Kingdoms of this world are become the Kingdoms of our Lord and his Christ and he shall reign for ever and ever...James the New Earth and the New Heaven is simply our New hearts and New Spirits which is the H.G...The mystery of the Kingdom of God is Christ in us...And that Christ in us is the H.G....Abide in me and i in you...Isaiah says as the New Heaven and the New Earth shall remain so shall thy seed and name remain...Which is the H.G. that can only come in his name and via his seed...the living words...Remember Jesus said the Father will send the H.G. in my name And Jesus refers to the H.G. as the Kingdom.

James... Jesus said outta of the hearts of man proceeds all manner of evil..There was none righteousness no not one...Mankind is of the earth earthy...And its mans adamic nature ( the flesh ) which is the very enemy of God...And this is the earth that God wants to destroy...Which is his baptism of the H.G n fire as our God is a consuming fire...As Jesus said every man will have his part in the lake of FIRE and thats what we need is his baptism of the H.G. n Fire...But his fire is a life giving fire as he said i come not to destroy mens lives but to save mens lives...Our old adamic nature which is in rank with Satan is the richman that feels the flames destroying heat...Remember Jesus rebuked James and john when they wanted to call a literal fire down on the Samaritans...All we need is his baptism of the H.G. Giving us a New Heart n a New Spirit.

A warning.

Hebrews 12:15 serves as a warning about any "seed of bitterness" that arises within us.

There are two ways in which the enemy will work. As believers; the Spirit makes the truth of scripture clear to us so that we know clearly what certain sins are and how to conduct ourselves rightly; in contrast. The lie that so often is effective is to convince ourselves that since we are indeed saved by grace that we are free from being entangled once again with our sin nature; or perhaps better put we think because we know INTELLECTUALLY what to do and we are "covered" by the blood that there are no more dangers lurking inside. Satain is well aware of our weaknesses; and that if we are looking for outside threats from the enemy we may not be paying attention to our hearts where sin gives him the only access to affect us.

It is always good to remember that Satan is not a foe to trifle with. God's purposes were even used with Christ and the temptation in the desert for His total reliance on the Spirit as an example of how to live sinlessly and victoriously in our lives.

Jesus knew better than to try to get into a physical confrontation at that time with Satan; and didn't argue about the authority that was claimed over the earth when the devil tempted Him to worship him in return for all the glory of the earth. ( Matt. 4:1-11).

All of us; and I repeat ALL are to remain steadfast in prayer for one another as all go through like temptations as the Body of Christ while on this earth. Keeping this in mind helps us not to focus too much on our own issues. Satan loves to "divide and conquer" and one of his favorite tactics is to make us feel that there is nothing anyone can do to help us. Contrast that with the overdependent type; either immature in faith or not believing at all. Those individuals are only there for themselves. Part of our TRUST in God is that He will provide brothers or sisters in our time of need wherever we are. We are not alone.

Gerald,

Here is my continuation:

I have given my understanding of the human kind of persuasion, or human faith. It is persuading ourselves to believe.

The God kind of persuasion, or biblical faith describes what God's Spirit does in the life of the believer.

All of His ministry to me, everything that God's Spirit does in me, and everything that God's Spirit does when I get together with other believers for bible study, and I'm not saying that 100% of it is the Lord, but every time the Holy Spirit ministers to me, it all comes under the category of persuasion because He is someone I cannot see, and cannot audibly hear.

There is something persuading us about the truth, or persuading us about the things of Christ.

I have a personal definition of faith. Faith is the presence and activity of the Holy Spirit in a believer's life.

That's God's faith. That's the faith that's in the bible. In Galatians 5:22, it says but the fruit of the Spirit, (speaking of the Holy Spirit), is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, and faith.

Faith is a fruit of God's Spirit. Faith is a persuasion which God's Spirit produces, not man.

In Hebrews 12:2, we are told to run the race, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.

However, the word "our" as in our faith, it's not in the Greek text. It's the word "the." He is the author and the finisher of the faith.

If you have a copy of the old King James Bible, there are numerous phrases that talk about the faith of Christ.

The newer translations will take the phrase "the faith of Christ," and change it to faith "in" Christ, because the translators said it makes it sound like it's the Lord's faith. Well, duh! But they said it must be "in Christ." No, it's the faith of Christ!

I am going to need one more post. My apologies for being long winded!

Well said. The problems that come our way are not the "cross" Jesus is speaking to here. It is to live a life of obedience and submission to God and His agenda, as Jesus did, in my reflection. It may include persecution, rejection, and perhaps even martyrdom. But we have the Holy Spirit as our guarantee of salvation and full redemption.

In Hebrews 12:2-3, Paul says of Jesus, but for the joy set before Him (of resurrected life and the redemption of the saints) He endured the cross, bearing its shame until His work was completed and then, after He resurrected and ascended back to heaven, sat down at the right hand of the Father where He once again openly expresses the glory that He shares with the Father (which He prayed for at the Last Supper). He knew that His days of humbling Himself ( Phil. 2:5-11) would be past and He would be exalted once again.

So, for us, we set before us the joy of heaven and the glorification of our bodies at the resurrection when we endeavor to "take up our cross" daily for the glory of God and the completion of His will being done on earth as it is in heaven. The will of God done in heaven is complete and willing obedience to God as a gift of worship to Him. So, here on earth, we, too, offer the same gift to Him in worship, taking up our cross and following Jesus all the way, every day.

Ephesians 1:13-14 states that we are sealed withe Spirit unto the day of redemption. Notwithstanding this; it is not a mere verbal statement that assures salvation. Therefore to those TRULY born again; indeed they are saved in a "once saved always saved" way. We all have as evidence of genuine faith a need to REPENT (turn from sin); but God actually GIVES us the desire to repent through the GIFT of repentance ( Acts 5:31; etal). It is more doctrinally sound to say that GOD elects or chooses those who will become adopted sons or inherited into the Kingdom ( Colossians 1:13; Romans 8:22-23). We must confess with our mouths; of course but that comes along with belief in the heart ( Romans 10:9). Those who are saved because they LOVE God they keep His commandments ( John 14:15). Those who are saved will bear fruit ( John 15:2). The surrounding scriptures and parable of the sower show that a person must pass through the temptations of the world and be proven to be true sons ( Hebrews 12:8). Those who are true believers are chastised as He does with all those He loves. The fruit of the Spirit eventually manifests; and God continues to prune (or sanctify) us to produce MORE fruit. The others fall away eventually to the world; flesh and devil; only God can save us from ourselves and these forces which are blinding those who don't know the Lord ( 2 Cor. 4:4).

The 10 Commandments therefore are still in force today; but we are unable to follow with the MORE stringent matters of the heart which only again comes from the Spirit. Without this there is an outward obedience only. The only thing which has changed is the Sabbath Day; and I would say that Matthew 12:8 answers this by placing Sunday as the day of rest. This is also the only command that was peculiar to the nation of Israel; rather than universal law which clearly as shown with John the Baptist in matters of divorce holding for pagans as well. Other ceremonial rules changed with Peter's vision in Acts 10.

Hi Rhonda. You may referring to the word, 'witnesses' mentioned in Hebrews 12:1. If so, these witnesses are those listed in Hebrews chapter 11, all who were commended & accepted because of their faith.

And I'm sure there are many many more in Heaven who are there (including our loved ones) because of their faith in Jesus, as the merits of the Cross also applied to those who trusted God yet never hearing of Jesus in their earthly lives.

1Corinthians 13:12, yes, it says ._. "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

There seems to be scriptures that sort of suggest that it's possible. John 11, Hebrews 12:1, following from Hebrews 11, Mark 9:2-4, Matthew 17:1-3, 1Samuel 28:15-19,

We will all give account, Matthew 25:31-46, Romans 14:12, Philippians 2:1-16, Deuteronomy 5:11, Exodus 20:7, Mark 9:39, Matthew 12:31, in context Matthew 12.

God is not The God of the dead but of the living: Matthew 22:32, Psalms 139, John 3:16, hopefully these help answer your questions