Discuss Matthew 17 Page 4

Doug , you bring up a great point that almost no one teaches on , much less has a clue about. So you have provided a number of verses on "clouds" allow me to provide a few more that will open things up for you and all else who read this.

Psalms 104:3 " who maketh the clouds his chariot" .... that is the KEY to the clouds . A cloud or clouds plural are actually referencing his chariot and fleet of chariots in Psalms 68:17 "The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels:

the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place." 20,000 chariots would be a flying fleet of aircraft/spacecraft, as he comes down from heaven and maneuvers through the skies of earth. Look at Isaiah 66:15 "For behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his CHARIOTS....." this is at the second coming ! This clearly ties in with the armies in heaven which follow him in Revelation 19:14



That should open things up a little for you. A detailed study of the Mt of Transfiguration where a cloud comes with the Father in it bringing Moses and Elijah.... "and they feared (the disciples) as they (Moses and Elijah) ENTERED INTO THE CLOUD".. Like 9:34. Yeah, I bet they did. First off, Moses was resurrected - Jude 1:9. Elijah went up in a chariot in 2 Kings 2. They then return in one of these Cloud-Chariots with the Father to talk to Jesus before his death. This fulfills the prophecy Jesus gave the week before about some standing here not tasting death till they see the kingdom of God .... Matthew 16 end - Matthew 17:1-10 Mark 9:1:10 Luke 9:26-36

As for the Ascension of Christ in Acts 1, it is likely the same cloud of the Mt of Transfiguration, as Jesus goes to sit on the right hand of the Father. This doctrine is virtually unknown to most all Christians, much less those that teach or preach to them. Thanks be to God I happened across a website a few years back where the late Patrick Cooke laid this all out in detail. Opened my eyes quite a bit.

Obviously, Peter, James and John see the kingdom coming at the Mt of Transfiguration. John especially, the Book of Revelation.

Compare all 3 passages of Matthew 17:1-9, Mark 9:1-9 and Luke 9:26-36.

Remember, Moses had died and God had buried him. Michael the archangel goes to get his body Jude 1:9

Elias (Elijah) was picked up by a chariot of fire 2 Kings 2:11-12.

They are returned by and re-enter a "cloud" where the voice of the Father is heard, Luke 9:34-35. Note the Father must have been in that cloud / chariot.

The clouds and chariots connection is found in Psalm 104:3 The clouds typify the chariots of the LORD which number 20,000 Psalm 68:17.. notice they are "as in Sinai", Moses time in Exodus. Of course the Cloud in Exodus performed as an aircraft / spacecraft as it came down from heaven and then did many aerial maneuvers.

When the second coming happens it is referred to many times as a "day of clouds" and in Isaiah 66:15 it involves "his chariots",

which is a fleet of at least 20,000 - Psalms 68:17.

Moses and Elias represent the Law and the Prophets, which is what Jesus came to fulfill - Luke 24:44 and they "spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem" - Luke 9:31

So then, Jesus makes the statement that there be some standing here which shall not taste of death till they see the kingdom of God... refers to the event of The Mt of Transfiguration event.

Obviously, Peter, James and John see the kingdom coming at the Mt of Transfiguration. John especially, the Book of Revelation.

Compare all 3 passages of Matthew 17:1-9, Mark 9:1-9 and Luke 9:26-36.

Remember, Moses had died and God had buried him. Michael the archangel goes to get his body Jude 1:9

Elias (Elijah) was picked up by a chariot of fire 2 Kings 2:11-12.

They are returned by and re-enter a "cloud" where the voice of the Father is heard, Luke 9:34-35. Note the Father must have been in that cloud / chariot.

The clouds and chariots connection is found in Psalm 104:3 The clouds typify the chariots of the LORD which number 20,000 Psalm 68:17.. notice they are "as in Sinai", Moses time in Exodus. Of course the Cloud in Exodus performed as an aircraft / spacecraft as it came down from heaven and then did many aerial maneuvers.

When the second coming happens it is referred to many times as a "day of clouds" and in Isaiah 66:15 it involves "his chariots",

which is a fleet of at least 20,000 - Psalms 68:17.

Moses and Elias represent the Law and the Prophets, which is what Jesus came to fulfill - Luke 24:44 and they "spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem" - Luke 9:31

So then, Jesus makes the statement that there be some standing here which shall not taste of death till they see the kingdom of God... refers to the event of The Mt of Transfiguration event.

Matthew 5

Vows are not like promises. If Jesus preached on this, it means it's being confirmed in the New Testament.

Testimony: after my divorce, I vowed to God not to vow again if I could not keep the vow. That was 35 years ago. I never remarried. Do I regret it? No. The blessings far exceeded anything I could've hoped for.

Did you try to be reconciled? (No answer needed)

Streetpreacher

If a man divorce his wife and marry another will God forgive them

I was bullied in school, by some students & even teachers. I know several children bullied by teachers & others in authority. I even had teachers throw chalkboard erasers & hit me in the head, multiple times, in front of entire classes. One teacher pulled me by the hair of my head down the hall to office because I asked questioned his fairness 5th grade. 4th Grade the teacher had me miss play time several days because I white skin, & different eyes & hair. "to teach class about predjudist" it made students more isolating towards me. Many more situations, I & others have suffered.

* To tell someone in authority that has no fear of GOD, sometimes makes the problem worse!

1st know: Jesus knows better than anyone what it's like to be wrongfully bullied! Pray to The Father for help in Jesus Name: Matthew 6:5-34, John 14:13, Isaiah 53,

1Peter 2:19-25,

2nd if you have kind, gentle, loving & understanding parents you all could prayerfully consider Homeschooling.

If you have a difficult situation at home, then pray about how to tell your Parent/Parents/Gaurdian. Even if they don't outwardly show love, they most likely care about cruel, abusive behavior towards you by others. In one case a child was moved to different school & situations were much better for that child.

3rd, Remember this time, if you're called to endure is just a few years, sometimes much shorter when you pray. GOD does amazing things, through our prayers. Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20, James 5:17,

4th, through hardship we learn compassion, to help others who go through what we have gone through, & going through. 2Corinthians 1:3-4,

5th, I will pray for you.

6th be encouraged as I have become unafraid of people & bolder for Christ, wiser especially for things today, you too should be strengthened & be wiser throughout these things. 2Timothy 2:3, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13,

Hopefully these are helpful & encouraging

Dear "Carl F Fleenor", it is never easy when one does not see the healing. What did Jesus say in Matthew 17:14-21 ? It is there even in a state of invisibility. You have to go in everything you ask for. As i pray and read in the word of God every day, i feel that the Lord Jesus heals me every day. See me a poor man who does not even know what i am asking for! He says that the answer is on its way! Think how great a joy it is in Heaven for people to be saved. That is the most important thing of all. ps. In my life there has been illness from day 1. If I now end up in hospital, I testify even more for Jesus. So even the wicked refuse me to go to the hospital. :D

Let's say we ask for a sore shoulder. This does not mean that we should go with the arm in the sling, but use it and soo on. If you ask to buy a new car for the one you have, it will fall apart. Pray to the Lord, and even if you are afraid, He will help you to cope with the stress of buying a car. Go in it with thanks!

I once met a young lady who said: God helps those who help themselves. I have thought about these words a lot. Because they are true in a way. For we must enter into healing, into the church, into the blessing. Then we understand that the Lord has done for us. Then the thanksgiving and His glory will be much much more. Thank for everything.

It is an honor to God that we walk in His way. My grace is sufficient for you, said the Lord to Paul. And those are strong words, but we will also meet Paul sometime in the future. The words also apply to us. We never know when. But we know the day is coming. May God bless u and her with all Spiritual wisdom in Him who will have all Glory and Power forever, Amen Hope this was helpful. Love u in Christ.

Matthew 18

Interesting question. Most excellent Theopholis in Luke 1:1-4 apparently addressed someone as a nobleman as to who the book was written to. The man who couldn't have demons cast out in Mark 9:29 addressed whichever disciples had a failed attempt to cast it out. The conversation when Jesus said you will see a man with an colt tied up and to ask his permission was recorded in Luke 19:30-34. Matthew 17:24-25 definitely shows Peter having a conversation with the tax collector. Then there is the verse in Luke 18:39 which could refer to the Disciples complaining or telling someone to be quiet; and similar references where they were mentioned to be trying to stop someone who was also doing healings and the like in Luke 9:50.

It seems most things were not too edifying that the disciples tried to do to interfere with what people were doing in Christ's presence. Sad commentary; but again before Pentacost many things were hidden from them. It seems there is no named individual who was mentioned; even with Christ until the trial immediately preceeding His death. We do see; however John the Baptist and his interaction which eventuallly caused him to be martyred. There were clearly interactions necessary to procure the healing of Peter's mother in law; and for Christ to give the Apostle John the care of His mother at His death.

Matthew 21:21-22,

GOD's WORD says seek & you shall find, knock & it shall be opened, Matthew 7:7, Luke 11:9, Luke 1:37, Luke 18:27, Mark 10:27,

Ask & you shall receive, say with your mouth believe with your heart & it will happen. Mark 9:23, John 16:23,24, John 14:13,14, John 15:16,

Mark 11:22-26,

That doesn't just apply to believers GOD even gives people over Romans 1:18-32,

Matthew 17:20, Hebrews 11:6,

Mark 14:36,

James 4:3,

James 4,

Please stay within scripture, write it upon your heart. Proverbs 7:1-3, Deuteronomy 11:18, Proverbs 3:3,

Mark 7:9, Mark 7:13, Colossians 2:8,

Hopefully these are helpful & insightful

Larry,

I'm not sure if you follow manuscripts or not, but Matthew 17:21 is actually an addition. It is not in some manuscripts, but it actually describes what Jesus said about praying. Howbeit this kind goes not out except by prayer and fasting.

What He means by that is bring him to me. He is not saying that prayer has some magical work to it, like pray over them and the demon will come out. He's saying it's through prayer, give him to me.

I understand that fasting serves two purposes. Number one: To become physically weak in order to be spiritually sensitive. That's the religious meaning for fasting. You go without food and your body becomes weak in order to become spiritually sensitive.

But also, you fast in order to lose your physical strength so that God's Spirit can use you. And that's Jesus' emphasis here, bring him to me. Make sure that you're not involved, that your flesh is not at all involved, and bring him to me.

And again in Mark 9:29, just like the Matthew text, that little phrase "and fasting" was added to many manuscripts. Originally, it was just prayer, but if we keep the fasting in there that's not a problem.

The important thing we need to know is that it is not part of a formula. What is the first thing Jesus said? He said the answer is, bring him to me, and if I am not here, pray! Bring him to me!

Rsv bible mark 9:29 & matthew 17:21 have lost "fasting and prayer" that jesus said in kjv are both necessary to cast out evil/ demons.

two satanic worshippers prevailed in 1963 process to leave out "fasting" in rsv.

(note: " *saint joseph's partners" article "the power of fasting".)

john wesley would not ordain a minister into colonial georgia methodist church who was not fasting.

president abe lincoln declared 30 april as usa national day of fasting and prayer.

a few days later a stray confederate bullet hit their commanding general.

in his absence gettysburg was a turn of the civil war in favor of the union of usa.

why are we today not fasting on bread and water on wednesdays ( day of judas' betrayal) & fridays ( the crucifiction), like early christians practiced?*)

fasting is to humble ourselves, like wicked ahab did when elija told him god's judgement on him was all men and women in his kingdom would die. ahab fasted for a week..god spared ahab's people during his rule.

esther 4:16 she and all jews fasted 3 days. god acted.

the king canceled his command that they all jews be killed.

why struggle under evil, pandemic, closed churches, war time attacks?fasting can be developed step by step.

cardiologist, dr. p. jamnadas lectures:"the amazing benefits of "fasting for survival" as he lecture med students at fla. state univ. med school.

(( why not reverse and cure diabetes? 80%of usa is prediabetic.

clear brain fog? reverse cardio vascular disease? reduce waist lines to less than 40 inches?)

this assistant med school professor describes how to, step by step, develop ability to fast.

how about reduce risk of cancer by 70%for life time?

help!!!

lead us in developing ability to fast and pray..., as jesus expects us to do.

lets cast out evil.

why not?

1Peter 3:7, Micah 3:4, Isaiah 1:15, Psalms 66:18, Isaiah 59:2, Proverbs 1:28-30, James 4, James 5:1-9,

2Chronicles 7:14, 1Peter 3:12, humble ourselves, turn from evil, 1Timothy 2:8, James 5:10-12,

Even when things look impossible keep praying: Isaiah 38:1-9, Matthew 9:29, Matthew 17:14-21, Matthew 7:7-8, Luke 11:9-13, Acts 12:5-18, James 5:13-20

Never give up

Psalms 37, 1Thessalonians 5:17, James 5:16,

Hey Linda,

If I may give another understanding of why Jesus told Peter "Get the behind me Satan". We find this in Matthew 16:23 and Mark 8:33. It may seem that Satan was influencing Peter, but Satan wanted Jesus to be killed because that would stop Jesus the Messiah from setting up the kingdom on earth, God's plan was hidden, even from the disciples.

Everyone and the disciples thought when the Messiah came, He would set up the Kingdom and set up the new world order. Jesus told them several times He would be killed and be resurrected, Matthew 16:21 Matthew 17:22-23 Mark 8:31 Mark 9:31-32 Mark 10:32-34. In Luke 9:44-45 it was hidden from them until He was resurrected Luke 24:6-8, and later the Holy Spirit would bring all remembrance to them, John 14:26.

The understanding of those sayings was hidden, and Peter took Jesus aside and was saying surely God would have mercy and not let this happen. Jesus turned away and when He said what He did all the disciples heard what He said. The word Satan was originally a common noun meaning adversary.

The disciples were amazed Jesus was going to Jerusalem and they were afraid Mark 10:32. Even though they were told what was going to happen it was hidden they did not have a clue, they were still looking for Jesus to overthrow the Romans and set up the kingdom. That was the reason they all scattered when Jesus was arrested and Peter's denial, they all were devastated and shocked because the Messiah when He came was to set up the kingdom not to be killed.

Jesus' response to Peter and the disciples was drastic but it was a message relevant to them all, a message they all needed to hear to get them through what was shortly to happen. One other thing, when Jesus came it was for the lost sheep of Israel only, even after Pentecost it was still for the house of Israel until the mystery of the gospel of grace was revealed.

Jesus only lost one, Judas who He called the son of perdition, John 17:12.

Hope this helps

God bless,

RLW

Thank yu again, Chris.

Very informative.

Happy Easter!

Eliyyah is Hebrew, Elias is the Greek form of that.

Thank you for the informative explanation.

God bless!

Concerning this passage Patrick, I believe that the Lord Jesus may have explained to His disciples that Elias (Elijah) who came, came in the spirit & power as was seen endued in the person of John the Baptist. The Angel of the Lord spoke to Zacharias (John's father) of the prophecy that was upon his coming son: Luke 1:17, "And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord." This was not Elijah reincarnated, but the man John the Baptist who would display the same zeal & power of words & action as did Elijah.

Actually Patrick, the KJV shows the name as 'Elias' not Elisha (two different people). And Elias is another form of the name 'Elijah' (from the Hebrew, Eliyyah). So the RSV & KJV both speak of the same man, Elijah.

Why does New Revised Standard Version refer to Elijah in vs 10-13 while this King James Version speaks of Elisha?

In Matthew 17 vs 10-1 it speaks of Elias already come and they didn't recognize him.

Why in vs 13 does it say the disciples understood that he was speaking of John the Baptist?

Use the SEARCH BOX and type in the word, LOTS or

CAST LOTS.

It's a form of gambling; it was used to ask God a question.

1Timothy 5:8, please read 1Timothy 5, for context, it's not just talking about immediate family but providing for Aunts.

Titus 1:7, 1Corinthians 4:2, Luke 19, Luke 12, Matthew 25,

Matthew 27:35, John 19:24, Psalms 22:18, Mark 15:24, Luke 23:34, Joel 3:3, Obediah 1:11, Nahum 3:10, Esther 3:7-15, Esther 9:24,

Leviticus 16:8-10, Numbers 26:55,56, Numbers 33:54, Numbers 34:13, Jonah 1:7, Acts 1:26,

Proverbs 16:33, Proverbs 18:18, Luke 1:9,

Dear Tina,

Here's some possible related verses on this page: Link

I don't believe gambling is inherently a sin. the definition is "Wagering of money on a game of chance or event with an uncertain outcome." But there's way more things that fit that description that just pulling a slot machine or playing cards, such as betting your friend a free lunch if you win something, hot dog eating contest, couponing, investing, buying a house, buying a car, protecting against inflation, buying a lottery ticket, staying at a hotel with no online reviews, prize money for local fair contests, all sporting events, spending money on a movie you hope is good. These all fit the definition.

Some of these activites are actually supported by scripture, such as the parable of the talents, not burying our money, but investing wisely. Also not putting a house on sand but solid ground, being responsible and prudent.

But the Bible doesn't specifically say gambling is a sin, I believe its just tradition from fundamentalists who assumed that, similar to dancing. But what is clearly defined as sin is if we make something an idol and put it as a false god above God. Addiction to anything can be a sin, whether gambling, food, alcohol, bad movies, images, sugar, or anything that abuses ourselves (which is like abusing God's creation).

Interesting; in the fact that it came up in discussion in small group tonight. 1 Tim. 5:8 gives us a clue; as to the effect of such action; and states that those who do not care for the needs of their family are worse than an infidel. There is; simply put no specific verse about gambling. But there is the verse that states if we know the right thing to do and don't do it to us it is sin ( James 4:7).

In theory; one could be a genius who can memorize a deck of cards; or who has proven to win more than lose in a particular game; or balance out amounts bet so that in time they are ahead or in the black. If they were willing to provide for others including their own budget and needs by allocating earnings and expenses as one would with any other method of employment and strictly stopped when they had spent the amount allocated; and had enough invested on the side to sustain them; and or other means of income then conceivably they could make such an occupation a career or side job. Most casinos; of course would tire having losses themselves with such individuals present at their establishment.

The temptations for overspending; greed; and the other vices such as drinking; and pornography so often available at such establishments; and not doing such things around others who have an addiction to gambling would be very hard to avoid. The specific question of someone with an offering made under gambling raises these issues. The vast majority of those who play games of chances are from those who are at best seduced by the world; and are likely to be ensnared while they systematically destroy their lives and that of their family. There is the warning of a "double minded man" being unstable in all his ways ( James 1:8). We cannot love both God and mammon according to Christ. I cannot see how such an occupation can be an effective witness; nor how it can demonstrate trusting God to provide for our needs; even if it isn't specifically listed as a sin.

were in the Bible tells you about gambling,its a sin

I give thanks and pray every night before I go to bed, when I rise and during the day. When in the mountains is when I feel the closest. Boulders, grass, trees and the fast running water. I feel God made that area for us. May all be blessed by the Lord.

Genesis 5:21-24, 2Kings 2:11, 2Kings 2, Matthew 17:1-7, Mark 9:1-7,

Hey Raymond,

We see this in Matthew 17:1-9 Mark 9:2-10 and Luke 9:28-36, some may believe Moses and Elijah were in heaven and came and appeared, Jesus took Peter, James, and John up to the mountain, He was transfigured before them and Moses and Elijah appeared talking to Jesus.

If we take note of what Matthew writes, "And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. 8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. 9And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead"

It was a vision and a confirmation from God to these three that Jesus is the Son of God and the Law and Prophets will be fulfilled with the death and resurrection of Jesus. Mark 9:10 another place that shows things were hidden from the apostles until the Holy Spirit brought remembrance to them of what things Jesus had told them, John 14:26.

One other thing, Jesus is the Firstfruits of them that slept, 1 Corinthians 15:20. Jesus was the first to be raised from death Acts 2:24. No one has ascended to heaven, John 3:13 and no one will overcome death until Jesus returns on the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30.

In my understanding of scripture to us today, Moses and Elijah are awaiting the resurrection, with no knowledge or time in death, to them, it has already come.

God bless,

RLW

I've had several close to death experiences. The 1st I recall clearly was about 5 or 6 yrs old. I was being held by gentle being, clothed in white & no pain, back to unbearable pain & suffering. I heard myself speak as an adult outside of the situation. That may have been the closest I've ever been to Heaven itself, the place. 2nd time I was electrically shocked while in water, I saw a black hand cover the sky, enormous, I could only see light through the bend of two fingers & only a portion, it was so huge. 3rd & 4th time I was young adult, it was all black around, I could feel darkness & closeness to judgement. I begged for another chance. 5th time I could hear & see the EMTs I had a different view. I was at peace not struggling, no pain. Then as they put the heart zapper thing on 3rd time I think it was. I felt difficult pain again, coldness, struggle. Luke 23:43, Luke 16:15-31, Luke 20:35-38, Psalms 91:11, Matthew 4:11, Matthew 13:39,41,49, Luke 4:10, 2Thessalonians 1:6-12, 1Timothy 3:16, Hebrews 1, Psalms 97:2, * Hebrews 2:14,15, Genesis 5:24, 2Kings 2, Matthew 17:1-5, if GOD has allowed Ezekiel, John & others in the Scriptures to see Heaven then I cannot argue they did or not. * Acts 7:55, Jeremiah 52, Revelation 7, Isaiah 6:1, Ezekiel 1, Ezekiel 10,

Matthew 24:3-51, Matthew 25:31-46, we will all give account so may our Words be faithful.

Hello Patty. When a believer (i.e. one who has placed his faith in Jesus Christ for salvation) passes away, his/her soul & spirit are received into Heaven immediately, while the body remains on Earth. Some believe that the soul/spirit remain on the Earth but generally they don't know where they reside.

I share the following Scriptures in support: 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (Paul is giving the distinction of where our spirits can only be: on Earth or in Heaven; if we're on Earth (home in the body) then we're not in Heaven. But if we're not in the body, then we must be "present with the Lord").

Philippians 1:21-24 (Again, Paul was caught in a strait (a predicament): he was ready & willing to depart to Christ (i.e. his spirit), but if he remained on Earth then his ministry could continue to the Philippians & others. He longed to go, but also knew that at God's appointed time his departure would come).

Examples of Stephen ( Acts 7:54-60). As he was being stoned & in his final breaths, he called upon Jesus to receive his spirit. At the Transfiguration ( Matthew 17:1-8), Jesus was transfigured (where we get the word, metamorphosis from the Greek): to change/transform in appearance; & with Jesus, Moses & Elijah appeared talking with Jesus - Moses & Elijah had long been dead, but have returned, not from the dead, but from Heaven.

And John 11:21-27. Jesus talks with Martha about the death of her brother Lazarus. She believed in the general resurrection of all people at the appointed time, but Jesus tells her something she didn't know, of the believing dead & living: whether in death or in life, the believer never dies (spiritually) - the body might perish & decay, but Jesus Who is our Resurrection & Life, guarantees that the spirit will live on as the body will one day be raised incorruptible.

"The dead in Christ shall rise first": speaks of the Rapture ('harpazo') of the Church when both the living & dead will be 'snatched away' from the Earth to meet Jesus in the air.