Bible Discussion Thread Page 2

I do not consider the trinity doctrine Christian , but a RCC doctrine that developed 300 plus years after the real church began . I have heard all of it and never was convinced when careful study of the word is gone . You may claim to be RRC if you like . But to me the doctrine is damning . And not Christian .

I have nothing to do with the RCC doctrine, in Jesus teachings (KJV) he tells us to believe as little children and so I do believe when I read my bible, I don't understand a lot of it, such as how could Jesus raise someone from the dead, but I know he raised Lazarus, John 11:43, or how could he walk on water as in Matthew 14:25, but I know he did, and many more. Nowhere in the bible does it teach us that we need to understand, but only believe, believe as little children, when you see the trust and faith that a child has in their parent this is what Jesus teaches, only in the cross and his saving grace. the thief that was saved on the cross, he didn't have time to read up on scripture but only believe, and so on. I watch Billy Graham episodes on y tube, on a regular basis, and in one of his sermons he describes the trinity as in water, in water you have, liquid, ice and steam, they are all have the same components, but are different in form. So also as in 1 John 5:7 "the Father, Word and Holy Ghost and these three are one", neither do I understand this, but I know it's true.

Mark 10:15 "Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein."

So when the Bible says in Genesis God said let there be light and there was light .

Who spoke it God or Jesus ?

The answer is so obvious.

The answer to your question is there in Genesis 1:3: "And God SAID". Out of God, came forth His WORD in speech, to create Light. The question is: how does this WORD fit into the Being of God? Is the WORD a part of God as His Spirit is? Or do you see some differentiation? I see that God, His Word & His Spirit are infused as One, indivisible & completely of Spirit Being (not of flesh). Therefore, if that Word, which was from the beginning, with God & was God ( Jn 1:1), was specially sent to this World clothed with flesh to bring God's Word to His people & ultimately to lay down His Life for them & us, then Who are we speaking about?

So to specifically answer your question: "Who spoke it God or Jesus?" It was God through Jesus, the pre-incarnate Word of God - the Word uttered by God. Then when Jesus, God's Word, came to this Earth, God no longer spoke to His people as He did before, but now "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he MADE the worlds" ( Hebrews 1:2). Made the worlds? Yes, His Word that was uttered in Genesis 1 was engaged in God's creative Work ( Colossians 1:15-17).

And No, this is not RCC doctrine - we hold fully to the Bible, to apostolic teaching & the beliefs held by the early Church.

Continuation of my comments

english standard version = changed contradicts truth

john 1-3 english standard version (esv) 1 in the beginning was the word, and the word was with god, and the word was god. 2 he was in the beginning with god. 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

what are the consequences of following false teachers, according to our god/lord jesus?

here is what our lord jesus is saying in the bible

is there danger in rejecting the "trinity doctine"?

the bible has no record whatsoever of any danger rejecting the trinity doctrine. however, the danger lies in "accepting & believing it, because it blasphemes god!

our names will be taken away from the "book of life" believers going to heaven, eternal life with god.

we, you & i go to hell to burn forever

following false teachers - accepting & believing what they preach as the truth & doing it or practicing it - you blasphemed god.



here is what god is saying

revelation 22:18 context 18for i testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto these things, god shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, god shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

deuteronomy 4:2 2ye shall not add unto the word which i command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the lord your god which i command you.

My take is either Jesus is the Son of God that the Bible clearly states many times . The rest is confusion that is not clear .

You can not be son of yourself in any thing . By one's imagination.

Robert. Just to clarify: Genesis 1:26a, "And God said, Let US make man in our image, after our likeness". With your added reference to Ezekiel 10:19, I gather you're stating that it wasn't Jesus (the Word) in "us", but God is speaking of the cherubim. So God used these heavenly beings to assist in the creation of mankind. Interesting.

What would you do with Colossians 1:16,17: "For by him (Jesus is spoken of here as we see before & after these verses) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." How does this fit in with the cherub activity in creation?

John 1:1-3. I don't understand your point. What are the changes in the Bible versions (NKJV & ESV) you see? Is it the use of the words, "by" & "through", as in "All things were made by Him, or through Him". I can see the difference in meaning, but the intent is the same: that it was the Word of God that participated in creation with God (whether the creating work was from the Word or through the Word) and this Word was subsequently made human & His Glory was seen, as One come out of God (v 14). I await your clarification.

Continuation

Perspective Helps Us Understand God

Old Testament = God is a Spirit, invisible to the naked eye. Attributes are: Omnipotent - all powerful, can do anything nothing is impossible; omnipresent - is everywhere; omniscient - knows everything and anything; unchanging - never change, time and space doesn't affect him; eternal - everlasting, has no beginning nor ending;

Time Perspective:

Old Testament

Adam to Noah = 1,656 years

Adam to Joseph = 2,513 years

Adam to King Solomon = 4,008 years

Explanation = "right hand of God" is an idiomatic expression that means "Power" or "Authority", not location

Another explanation: for Trinity 3 persons in 1 God: (only 1/3 true; 2/3 false)

1.God the Father - is found in the Bible,

2.God the Son - is not found in the Bible,

3.God the Holy Spirit - is not found in the Bible.

In the Old Testament, the name of God was kept secret. But, Prophet Isaiah prophesied the #2 manifestation of God, and this was fulfilled when a virgin conceived by the Holy Ghost - a child born name Jesus - to saved the people of God.

God has manifested himself 3 times in 3 different time frames, not 3 persons.

Explanation for God the Father: #1 manifestation = God a Spirit in Old Testament, #2 manifestation = humbled himself in the flesh as a man name Jesus - suffered, shed blood for remission of sins of man; died, buried, risen, #3 manifestation = ascended into heaven sent Holy Spirit down to indwell in our hearts.

Brother Robert,

Interesting.

So you believe if we say three "persons" in ONE is false.

But you say three "manifestations" in ONE is correct.

I really don't see the problem here. When saying three "persons", of the Godhead, it should be known this is of the Spirit of God. Not like three separate human flesh people. They are all ONE.

Although all through the Bible you have Jesus speaking and praying to His Father. The Father from Heaven speaking down unto His Son and Jesus speaking of the Comforter, Spirit of Truth, or Holy Ghost as "Him".

So if you believe that was just God from above talking down to Himself, and Jesus praying and talking to Himself, well that's how you perceive it.

Throughout the NT it seems pretty intertwining of the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, and the Holy Ghost being in you when saved. As they are ONE.

Of coarse God is in everything and knows everything about everyone whether saved or not.

I pray to God our Father and Jesus Christ as they are two. Even though I know they are ONE. Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father.

So really Robert I don't see much differentiation in beliefs of the Lord. At least not enough to judge others and tell them they don't understand and are wrong. You say three "manifests" others say three "persons".

May we all come together in the Lord. God Bless.

Jesus is either the son of God as the word says or God that the word does not say .

Jesus being born of God had a relationship with God the obviously was before the foundation of the world , simply because so was God Before and after this world . Not rocket science.

Brother Chris, the following might help us all to really know who our God is. As Christians, we all believe in God, but at one time or another, we were also exposed to the preaching of false teachers.

JESUS is LORD, God with biblical proofs, no Trinity

Old Testament Prophesy of Isaiah is very important, as his prophecy was fulfilled in the New Testament and revealed the name of God, whose name was kept secret in the Old Testament:

Isaiah 44:6 6Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 7:14 - Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

New Testament Prophet Isaiah prophecy fulfilled.

Matthew 1:24 Context 21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Apostle John in Revelation

Revelation 1:8 - 9 8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. 9I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 22:13 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Revelation 1:17 - 18 17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

How would you explain these couple of verses from the book of Revelation if God the Father was also Jesus Christ? Which is what I think you perceive.

3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in His throne.

To denote God Almighty is on the throne here:

4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Here that the Lamb came and took the scroll from God Almighty:

5:1 And I saw in the right hand of HIM that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

5:7 And HE came and took the book out of the right hand of HIM that sat upon the throne.

God Almighty is my Perfect Holy Father and Jesus Christ is my Lord and Perfect Brother. Saying they are ONE(which may confuse some people) is not of this world here below. It is from above. If people have a hard time understanding it that's ok. As someone else stated that understanding everything is not what is important. Faith and Trust in the Lord is important.

Peace

Thanks Robert for your detailed explanation. I can only deal with one aspect of what you have said & that is on the verses that show the Christ Jesus is now risen & is seated at God's right Hand. I've checked the Greek in each of the cited verses, & they show a physical position of 'sitting' (kathemenos), at the 'right hand' (dexion), & of 'God' (Theos).

You have written: "Explanation = "right hand of God" is an idiomatic expression that means "Power" or "Authority", not location". How have you arrived at this 'explanation', given that the original language specifically states that Jesus' position is 'seated', 'at God's right Hand', & beside 'God', which you state He's no longer there, because Jesus is now God?

An idiom is something quite different: such as "hang one's head (in shame)", or to "kick the bucket", where clearly it is an expression to attract a response, an action. That Christ rose in victory over death & for our justification before God is seen in Romans 4:24,25: "But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification." By transliteration: 'To us also, that our faith shall be imputed for righteousness (v 22), if we believe on God Who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, being delivered for our sins & raised that we might be justified by God'.

And then in Hebrews 10:12: "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God". The same thought is expressed that Christ rose from the dead by God's Power & took up his rightful place at the Father's right Hand. This can't be an idiomatic expression, as the existence of the Person of God is present, who raised Jesus from the dead, God had to be fully satisfied (Christ was our propitiation for sins) & God could only then justify us - no other event could secure us. God is present & Jesus at His right Hand receiving worship.

Dear Robert,

I like the format and numbers you used in your comment. I just don't agree with your interpretation.

For instance "2.God the Son - is not found in the Bible," except it absolutely is found in the Bible. Have you read the book of John chapter 1? "The Word was God" is very clear. It's so clear it's hard to debate, it would almost be dishonest to conclude that the Word "was not" God. To me, that's no different than a serpent slithering up to and saying to ignore this verse, that instead it's "not" God. I trust the Bible and it is 100% clear what that means. So, let's say that someone then claims "Well, the Word isn't Jesus though, cause it could still be the Father." Nope. The Bible already answered that in advance too if you look at verse 14. It says He was made flesh and dwelled among us and refers to His "father." That narrows it down so much that there is zero other options than it being Jesus.

Jesus is God and He's different than the Father. Even then if someone denies the book of John there even MORE verses which support the same conclusion. When you then have a mountain of evidence that says the same thing, it starts building a case for a certain understanding of reality. Then for the holy spirit you have verses like Isaiah 61:1 that says the holy spirit is The Spirit of the Lord GOD. So that debunks the claim that the holy spirit "isn't God." A trinity then seems like an appropriate word to explain the relationship. People often get caught up in terminology, like how can one be another but separate at the same time. An apple has parts like skin, inner juicy part, and seeds and each is an Apple, but each has a different role. The Bible is clear in how it describes the relationship. So, denying it just seems like denying an apple. God bless...

Adam you really are a twister when it comes to scriptures, no debate is worthy , not even in the ball park Adam .

With out the spirit of truth, just about any form of doctrine is possible as you prove .

Robert, I literally quoted the Bible and broke it down to word for word detail, but instead you call me a 'twister' which seems like a disrespectful thing to say to someone. Instead actually sharing evidence yourself it seems you dodge and talk about other things to justify your belief. What if the Bible is right and you're interpretation is incorrect? What if you're actually the "twister"?

1 John 5:7 - is so simple a child can understand what it means. I know what it means. Do you? Have you prayed about it with an open heart and asked God to reveal His truth to you?

1 John 4:3 - The Bible says someone who doesn't believe Jesus is from God has the spirit of the anti Christ. That is a very serious matter.

Have you looked up these verses and prayed about this?

Hi Cris, here is my reply

Answer to your questions, back up with biblical proofs:

Colossians 1:16 - 17 16For by him (JESUS) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him (JESUS), and for him (JESUS): 17And he (JESUS) is before all things, and by him (JESUS) all things consist.

1 John 1:3 Context 1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life (JESUS); 2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Mark 16:19 19So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Luke 22:69 68And if I also ask you, ye will not answer me, nor let me go. 69Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.

Acts 7:56 56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Romans 8:34 34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Hebrews 10:12 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

1 Peter 3:22 22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Perspective Helps Us Understand God

Old Testament = God is a Spirit, invisible to the naked eye. Attributes are: Omnipotent - all powerful, can do anything nothing is impossible; omnipresent - is everywhere;

Chris its rick don't begin to think that everything in the kjv or any other translation was in the original text there are a number of places where things were added or subtracted to fit what they thought it mean't

Thanks Rick. Of course, I understand that certain 'English' words needed to be used to closely interpret the original language & at times there would be limitations to its intended meaning simply because of the nature of languages. But I believe that we do have as best a translation as possible that can be totally relied upon & with ample supporting Scriptures throughout which we can use to cross-reference to learn the meaning.

But if you sense that words have been added or subtracted from the Bible to suit someone's whims & fancies, then we fall into the same trap as our Islamic accusers who believe that the Bible has been altered using the same accusation of addition & subtraction. When I ask proof from them, all they have is to compare it to the Quran & have no idea what biblical Scriptures have been changed or when the changes occurred.

I realize that you're not suggesting that, but that in a lesser way you suggest that there are word usages in the Bible that may not be in the original. Then again, the request has to be declared, 'Where are the changes in the Bible & how have they affected the Truth shared or our understanding of them?' I've re-looked at my references ( Colossians 1:16,17 & John 1:1-3, if these are the ones in your focus), & stand by in my understanding as given in the Word. What I would however like to read from someone, is that some other Scripture(s) has been found that should alter my understanding, to which I would be compelled to give due consideration. But thus far, with all my efforts (bar Robert Malit latterly), none have come forward. Disappointing.

Reply to Chris their not showing my response sorry, and as I figured their not agreeing or liking it, so God Bless.

Hi Rick, I'm politely calling you out on the following false statement you wrote: "there are a number of places where things were added or subtracted to fit what they thought it mean't". People can say all kinds of things for various motives. Obviously when you come to a Bible website and try to discredit the Bible with no proof it seems a bit shady. So, where's your proof- go ahead and lay it out. All of it. I already know in advance whatever you bring forth will be false assumptions and misunderstandings about the Bible, as there are many I've heard before, but I still want to be open to what you consider to be true. And through doing so, all I ask is that you likewise be open to a response and a different point of view. Then you can think it through, pray about it, and come to a conclusion on what you think is the truth. Fair enough?

If you choose too believe that the translations of Gods Word are completely accurate and as God gave it when holy men of God spake, know this that in the original writings their were no periods no chapter headings, no commas, and the italicesed words were not in original text. Thats why they were called scrolls. Now when you get into that kind of research also the bible is an eastern book which has a lot of eastern thought to be understood, I am in no sense challenging what someone else believes or has been taught, that being said if Gods word which is perfect as originally given its really neat to see it fit and work. Gods Peace be with you

Dear Rick, it sounded like you were trying to discredit the Bible in your earlier comment about "there are a number of places where things were added or subtracted to fit what they thought it mean't."

You were then asked to prove it, and you only said the original scrolls didn't have some punctuation. In other words, it sounds like you agree the KJV is a translation. Translations are called translations because no 2 languages are a perfect match. But if someone is trying to discredit the Bible by saying its translated then I will call out that logical fallacy.

To illustrate this, let's say someone said 'quiero' in Spanish and you translated it into 'I want' in English. Let's say someone then learns that the translation had the "I" 'added' to it so he calls you a liar and tells everyone to not believe you. Would that be a false assumption? Yes, it would. You mentioned punctuation. Does punctuation change the meaning or does it simply preserve the accuracy of the translation? Hebrew is read right to left. So, someone could also use a similar logical fallacy to say that the Bible has radically been 'changed' and 'altered' and can't be 'trusted' because it was translated to be read completely backwards as the original. Again, it was made accurate in English. Extremely accurate. Word for word direct translation to the most precise degree. Italicized words make the sentence complete in English and is a necessary part of the translation. In my earlier example of "I want" the I would be italicized if it were KJV, because it was a necessary part to make the sentence complete. It's not that some random guy just wanted to add random words for selfish reasons. So, if you didn't intend to attempt to discredit the Bible with this that's fine, but if you're telling others to not trust the Bible because it was translated, that would be very wrong.

Sir I fully understand what you are saying yes depending on whos reading it punctuation changes themeaning as do center references and chapters, I in no way shape or reasoning or idea am I trying to get someone to believe my personal belief system. The apostle Paul who was given the revelation for the church and how it is supposed to function and operate and to this day there are individuals who argue water baptism or holy spirit or both, is speaking in tongues right or wrong, the apostle paul went up against the same thing and no I'm not advocating I'm as spiritual as he give me a break but it says in the timothy epistles that all of asia turn away from him and followed other doctrines and that was only about 70 years after pentecost so if you choose to believe that what we have in translation is word for word what these men were given by God thats fine with me your choice. By the way an example of poor translation which doesn't fit, on the cross Jesus Christ said the words eli eli lama sabbachthani that is to say my Gog my God why has thou forsaken me. Now since Jesus Christ always did the will of his father and told his disciples my father is always with me and his purpose was to buy us back by giving himself I.E. sinless blood you can't seperate that now we look look up those words back in old testament actual translation is my God my God for this purpose was I kept or spared you tell me what makes more sense. Again I've met people who were shown this and won't teach it because most people won't believe it and thats there privilege.

Rick you state: "now we look look up those words back in old testament actual translation is my God my God for this purpose was I kept or spared you tell me what makes more sense." This is regards to Matthew 27:46 & Psalm 22:1. Where did you learn this interpretation from as both the Gospel & the Psalm agree with each other?

Could it not be that in His Humanity, Jesus in agony cried out to His Father longing for that intimacy which He had before, but that the Father for the purpose of not taking away from the full impact of this Sacrifice, remained aloof & quiet. This would have been absolutely exceptional, extraordinary & devastating as Jesus always enjoyed intimacy with the Father, but now the Father was suddenly silent at a time that His Son needed Him most. I might be wrong with this understanding - how do you see it?

So Chris not defending myself but you know that the kjv. Is a translation that came out from the Greek Hebrew and Aramaic and They were 66 writers involved and even that the original scrolls had no capital letters chapter headings or commas periods none of that. That being said and trust me this in no is diminishing the absolute divine Authority of the Greatness of God's Perfect Word it enhances it to a phenomenal degree. If you would like an example I'd be glad to give you one. Just lighten up is all I ask

Are you sure your comment is to me? For me to lighten up??

Cris - in Genesis 1:26 pronoun "us & our" were used, because there were cherubim present. You left out Genesis 1:27 which says this: Notice used of singular pronoun (he & his)= Verse 27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." the reason for the change in pronouns is because God is the only that created man, and all things. The cherubim were there as messengers of God.

In the Old Testament, only Titles were used for God whose name was kept secret.

God, Spirit, LORD, Word, Redeemer of Israel, Holy One of Israel, Adonai, Yahweh, El Shaddai, Creator, Deliverer, Elohim, I AM,

Prophesy of Prophet Isaiah:

Isaiah 7:14 14Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

God is a Spirit - without blood, water, flesh, bones, is invisible to the naked eye. God humbled himself, manifested himself in the flesh a man name Jesus, who suffered, shed blood on the cross to cleanse man from sins, died on the cross, buried then rose from the dead on 3rd day, ascended into heaven, sent the Holy Spirit to indwell in our hearts = gifted us eternal life or salvation.

Jesus is the name above all names, all the titles used in the Old Testament and New Testament belongs to Jesus only. So Jesus is God and God is Jesus - no other God. Those who preach the Trinity are misleading people, preaching a gospel that contradict the true gospel of Jesus during his earthly ministry with his 12 apostles.

In summary = God in creation Old Testament; God manifested as a man name Jesus in New Testament; God as the Holy Spirit in Resurrection - all of these titles only belongs to Jesus.

In the New Testament, these titles were used;

God the Father, Son of God, Son of man, Christ, Holy Spirit, Savior, Messiah, First and Last,

In Hebrews 9:22 - 22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

So I think I understand you: that God was alone in Heaven in eternity & it was Him & the cherubim that were involved in the creative work. And then when it came time for Jesus' appearance, you said "God manifested as a man name Jesus in New Testament; God as the Holy Spirit in Resurrection - all of these titles only belongs to Jesus."

So to the first point & to my first response to you on this matter: how do you understand Colossians 1:16,17 & John 1:1-3 & following verses?

To your second point: if God is now manifested as Jesus, & I assume you say that there is presently no God in Heaven except Jesus Who now God, then what do you make of Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 7:56, Romans 8:34, Hebrews 10:12, 1 Peter 3:22, & others. I'm confused.

I suppose the Trinity issue doesn't come up until these points are dealt with first. Thank you.

Chris I don't get into the discussion of the trinity because there are too many ideas and opinions as to what it is and how it works.

I understand Rick. However, my reply was to Robert Malit who has made some interesting comments that I seek clarification on. And it's true, that the Doctrine of the Trinity is complex & beyond our human comprehension, as we've never seen or experienced anything like it in our earthly sojourn (apart from applying some weak examples to describe it).

But what we do understand of it that's found in the Word is worthy of discussion, understanding & acceptance. The real question then is: if Jesus isn't an indivisible part of the Godhead (whether pre or post incarnation), does that belief affect our faith in any way, God's acceptance of us & indeed our salvation? If the answer is "No", our deliberations on this doctrine are indeed wasted. But if "Yes", it's important that we believe what Scripture, as written, says about it for our learning & for the basis & truth of our faith. Then 2 John 1:7 becomes a very cutting Word to us, as clearly John speaks of those who don't acknowledge Jesus (as God's Word) has come in the flesh - the same thought he carries through from his Gospel. There are many today, as in those early Church days, who denied the deity of Christ: they certainly believed in an historical Jesus (they saw & heard Him), but to know & believe that this One of God came out of God, is blasphemy to them & reveals a 'different' spirit of utterance.

However, I never pursue this, or any other teaching, with those who would refrain; but if a comment is made, then it is proper that the Scriptures are properly exegeted in support, or else we are just mouthing empty words into the air that may well be the cause of ignorance & diversion from the Truth for many seeking help in the Word. Blessings to you.

In regards to this subject I believe Gods Grace is big enough that Romans 10:9+10 covers it, I.E. really good start after that let God work in the heart of the individual its His Church. God Bless

Chris in the early church Jesus Christ was never elevated to the level of God that being said don't think one minute that in my Head that takes away from what he did his perfect walk His absolutely unbelievable sacrifice for people who don't give a ---- but what His father and if you're a believer now are father knew is that their would be people who would come to him just by believing his written word in their hearts and be given eternal life. We got to do what mary paul and others did be it unto me according to thy word. To think we have never seen Him but we believe and are eventually headed to a new heaven and earth wherein dwelleth righteous our new home. Yippee

Rick, I believe that the early Church had elevated Jesus Christ to the "level of God". We might not see it in their writings as the Bible doesn't reveal what the Church actually preached to Christians, but shows us what the apostles taught them or on what issues they were taken to task over. So assuming that what the apostles believed & taught through their epistles, we have many Scriptures that confirm that the Godhead includes Jesus His Son.

Some of them are: 1 Corinthians 8:6; Colossians 1:15-17; Colossians 2:9; 1 John 5:7; Philippians 2:5-8.

But if you're referring to the early Church after the close of the apostolic era, then I can send you some quotes from the likes of Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, etc. So this teaching on the Trinity is not something recent as we are led to believe or from the RCC, but the firm belief of the apostles, of the apostolic Church & the Church in the 3rd Century onwards. You may believe that Jesus was perfect in every way securing our salvation through a perfect Sacrifice, but if He wasn't God in the flesh, then our salvation remains on shaky ground: it had to be God Who gave up His Life for us in demonstration of that pure Divine Love - the provision of any other 'perfect Sacrifice', whether human or animal by God is no demonstration of Divine Love - only of a Divine Provision which could necessitate the need for further sacrifices (as was done in the OT). Jesus was the one & only Sacrifice that could fix man's inherent problem - if He failed, there would remain no other sacrifice available for God to give us.

In the apostalic line where is paul peter john james luke ?

Diane, I'm unsure where your question is leading to, but to answer simply: the disciples of Jesus ( Matthew 10:1-4) later were referred to as apostles. A disciple essentially is a student, particularly to a Master, Rabbi, etc. where in his 'raw' state is brought into further knowledge of the prescribed Truth & by the witness of the life of the Master. An apostle is "a sent out one" or a messenger, who then takes what he has learned to teach others also & in the case of Christ's apostles, to deliver the life-saving, life-changing Gospel.

You asked, "In the apostalic line where is paul peter john james luke ?" Peter, John, James & another 9 were disciples & apostles, with Paul coming later, "as one born out of due time" ( 1 Corinthians 15:8). Then folk such as Luke & most likely others who were not part of the 'inner circle' (the 12), were also 'ad hoc' disciples who doubtless pursued their careers but spent time with the Lord to learn of Him. So when the last of the apostles (John) died, the apostolic line ended, though in a sense, an apostolic work can & does continue today, as we who have also learned from the Lord, the writings of the apostles & the sages of our time, can confidently go out & share what we have learned. Of course, without having the privilege of having the apostles around to question them further on doctrines, etc., our Churches & indeed, our beliefs, will always remain divergent, e.g. on the Trinity, the Second Coming, Law & Grace, etc.

I can appreciate that we all have a lot to learn, best to me is follow the law of love I corinthians 13. God Bless!

Sp your saying the early church didn't know who or what they worshipped even Paul.

"(So) your saying the early church didn't know who or what they worshipped even Paul."

No, I'm not saying that. The apostles, including Paul, certainly did know the true God, even as Jesus revealed Him to them. In very truth, "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father" ( John 14:9), Jesus had not only declared to them who God was but that He, Jesus, was the human personification of God Himself.

So can we assume that the God on His Throne in Heaven physically looked just like Jesus? Not so, for God is Spirit & none on Earth has seen Him, bar His Son. But Jesus presented to His apostles & those around, all of the Mind, the Nature, the Will, the Plans, the Holiness, the Love & Justice of God. How could He do this? Because He said, "I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father." ( John 16:28)

We can't force this Scripture to mean that Jesus came into existence because of God's Plan for Redemption, because the Greek for "I came forth (from the Father)" is 'exelthon', which means 'to go or to come out of'. And when Jesus says, "and am come into the world" the Greek here is different, 'elelutha' or 'to come, to go'. So He came 'out of the Father' to be sent (or, go) into the world. And then He says, "I leave the world, and go to the Father". Now the word is 'poreuomai' which means, 'to go or to travel'. And this implies not only his leaving the world physically, but His entrance back into Heaven, from whence He came, was not into the singular unity of the Godhead, but as a Man Who would be worshipped beside the Father, yet never losing His divinity to Him. In other words, if Jesus just came to Earth as the Word of God to men (as was spoken by the prophets) & returned to Heaven, logic says that He would have returned back into the Unity of God - just as the Holy Spirit, who is only Spirit, comes to us & goes to Heaven in the same Divine Form.

Both Paul & the Church knew the Deity of Christ & preached it.

#1 = God is a Spirit - Old Testament - invisible to naked eye, omnipotent - can do anything, omnipresent - present anywhere, omniscient - all knowing, sees everything. Adam sin - all mankind sin - requires shedding of blood for remission, to reconciled mankind to himself. As it was prophesied by Isaiah - God manifests himself in the flesh - Emmanuel.

#2 = New Testament - Isaiah's prophecy fulfilled = virgin birth of Jesus - dual nature - God & man, but mostly living as a man during the 3 years of earthly ministry with 12 disciples - the disciples were men like us today - limited understanding which is why they don't understand Jesus spoken words which comes from the Father directly, this very true today - our limited understanding and wisdom failed to fully understand the written word of God or gospel in the Bible.

#3 = After resurrection, when Jesus ascended into heaven while the disciples were watching, then said I will send the Holy Spirit to indwell in your heart to teach, guide, protect you, do greater things than what you've seen me do. This is why the Apostles did lots of miracles - raising the dead, casting demons, healing the sick, etc.

John's gospel explained this John 14:9 Context 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12Verily, verily, I say