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I believe you are on the right track. Without getting into the scriptural proofs which I may do later, I firmly believe the Bible is teaching that....
Christ will return on the clouds of glory IMMEDIATLY after the Great Tribulation has ended and all of God's Elect (i.e. anyone from every nation throughout time that God plans to save) have been saved.
Christ will bring with him all who have been saved and have previously died physically and are currently living and reigning with Christ in heaven in their Resurrected Soul existence (there are a few that are there in their Resurrected spiritual bodies like Enoch, Moses, Elijah and a few that were resurrected when Christ was crucified). And their bodies will be resurrected a glorified spiritual body.
Those True Believers that are still living will be changed into their glorified spiritual bodies in the twinkling of an eye as they are Raptured, i.e. caught up to be with Christ in the air and every eye shall see them along with those that have returned with Christ.
This event will also usher in Judgment Day when the unsaved will experience God's Judgment and ultimately be eternally destroyed along with this sin cursed earth.
Christ will create New Heavens and a New Earth where all whom He has saved will live and reign with Him eternally as a complete personality in their glorified spiritual body and soul where sin will never again raise its ugly head.
So to summarize...The Resurrection, the Rapture and the beginning of Judgement Day are simultaneous events that will occur immediately after The Great Tribulation.
The idea of Christ returning to set up some kind of a physical kingdom on this sin cursed earth and a separate future salvation plan for Jews and Gentiles is absolutely contrary to what the Bible teaches. And in my opinion the reason that we have such divergent understandings of these events is a failure to apply the principles that God has laid down as to how we must interpret the Bible.
The destruction of Jerusalem was the definitive action of God to show the Jews that, whether they like it or not, the Levitical sacrificial system was ended. Whether they accept Jesus or not, any animal sacrifice or offering according to the Levitical laws were not longer acceptable to God, since Jesus fulfilled all of these means of forgiveness of sins infinitely in the shedding of His blood and the giving of His sinless life for the sins of mankind.
The "specialness" of the Jews was also ended in that in Jesus both Jew and Gentile are chosen by God as His elect royal priesthood and princes with Jesus as our eternal High Priest. (as it says in Hebrews). It is true that the nation of Israel was chosen in OT times to be the means through which God brings forth the Messiah, but once Messiah came (Jesus) their special purpose was finished. We are all now equally elect of God.
I have always thought it strange that the Jews have been so sure of their "specialness" but do not seem to esteem the Israelites of the the other tribes as equally as "special". It is as if they have denounced their own brethren. There are millions of millions of Israelites scattered among the nations of the world along with millions of Jews, too. The Israelites of the other tribes most likely do not know their ancient heritage as they mixed their genes with the gene pool of all the surrounding nations through intermarriage.
But the Jews, who were in captivity for a much shorter amount of time, kept their gene pool more separate from the other nations and continued to practice the Judaism that came out of the Babylonian exile (which was very different from the religion and culture of the Israelites that entered the promised land with Joshua after being freed from Egypt, covenanting with YHWH on Mt. Sinai, and wandered in the desert for 40 years.
I do not believe as the Dispensationalists do concerning Israel and the church.
Our physical bodies will be resurrected and then transformed into the bodies we will have for eternity. These bodies will be like Jesus' resurrected body, tangible, flesh and bones bodies that cannot decay, die, or possess any aspect of sin. These bodies are spiritual in that they are animated by the Holy Spirit and governed by Him. Our present bodies are carnal in that they are animated by the laws of nature and are governed by the sinful nature. I believe that Jesus is still fully human along with being fully God. He retains all of His humanity, body, soul, spirit as we will also.
I believe that unbelievers will be resurrected also in physical bodies of flesh and bones but they will not be transformed as ours are. They will be immortal, but will not be incorruptible and unable to sin like ours. These believers will live forever under the judgement of God in hell (the lake of fire) and the wrath of God will forever be upon them. I do not believe in annihilation as you do.
I am not sure about the resurrection and judgment happening at the same time for both believers and unbelievers, as in Revelation 20:5 it says that the unbelievers will not be resurrected one thousand years after the resurrection of the saints.
This seems to indicate a 1000 year reign of Jesus. But I think that this reign is in heaven. After that 1000 years, then the unjust will be resurrected and judged to spend eternity in the lake of fire with the devil, the fallen angels, and the Nephillum.
Like you, I believe that Jesus is not going to set up a kingdom on earth, nor will this kingdom be for Israel with a renewed Levitical system of sacrifices and offerings. That system was ended with Christ's death (the tearing of the curtain that separated people from the presence of God in the Holy of Holies) and was demolished in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. that made it so that there was not longer any temple
The biggest difference that you cite is, of course, the nature of God's judgment on the unsaved.
Your understanding reflects the understanding and teaching of essentially every church and denomination throughout the church age. And when I was in the church, I did not question that understanding either. I have quite recently come to believe otherwise, and will provide what I believe to be some scriptural proof in future postings.
I believe that Hellmin the Bible refers to the grave. And I believe God's punishment for sin is death. That is both physical death. And the death of our soul. It is not a death of eternal suffering as the church has taught. It is annihilation. And I understand that is heretical to what we have been taught in the churches and what most believe. I am only going to present a passage here that you and others may want to ponder. It is a Law that God lays down in Deuteronomy 25.
Deuteronomy 25:1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.
Deuteronomy 25:2 And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.
Deuteronomy 25:3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.
God is declaring here that there is a limit to punishment that mankind is to observe. And God not only requires mankind to obey this law. But God himself is bound by this law, as he has not repealed it anywhere in the Bible, that I am aware of.
More on this later, as I have run out of room here.
Let me just say that this is an example of the incredible mercy of God.
c. As I wrote previously on this subject, I won't push my belief on when the Marriage or Marriage Supper takes place. If the marriage is yet to take place, how do we understand 1 Corinthians 6:17? Is our joining to Christ merely a spiritual connection or have we become part of Christ's Body?
Paul in the previous verses 15 & 16, wrote about the body that is joined to an 'harlot' is actually unified with her. How can this possibly happen (amongst them), if they are also "joined to the Lord (becoming) one through the Spirit?" Our relationship to Jesus is not only secure but our union to Him is even closer than the union of husband & wife (if I can describe it as such). Our spiritual life, indeed our whole life has its first appeal to Jesus' Spirit, well before our physical connection to our spouse. What He does in our lives & hearts can never be duplicated by another - not even close.
Is this then our blessed marriage union to Jesus? But if it is to be argued that another (second) marriage (after that completed redemption has taken place) is to occur in Heaven (or Earth), then really, I wouldn't pursue that; I don't think that is a critical matter of teaching, especially in this subject we've been discussing, of the Rapture, the Great Tribulation & their sequence of occurrences. Blessings brother.
I do agree that the Holy Spirit will always be with each and every believer, indwelling them and working in them. Jesus said that He will be with us always, and He does this through the indwelling Holy Spirit. He will be with every believer even unto the end of the age. I do not think He is removed because God is every where present and active in our world. He will continue to be active through the tribulation.
I do not believe the restrainer is the Holy Spirit nor the church. Perhaps Michael is assigned by God to restrain Satan as the Scripture speak of Michael being the protector of God's people in Daniel and also one who contends with Satan in heaven before Satan is cast out of heaven and comes to earth in a rage (Revelations 12:9).
It seems, from the 2 Thessalonian passage, the church of Thessalonica knew whom was restraining Satan and about the coming of the lawless one. But we are not told what Paul had said to this church concerning this topic prior to writing this letter.
It seems from reading about Lucifer in the Isaiah passage that he was created with great beauty but we are not told that he was second in power next to God. But Michael seems to have been created with great power and is able to overcome Satan when there is a conflict, such as in Daniel and in Revelations and when he won over Satan for the body of Moses. So it makes sense that the restrainer is Michael as God appointed him to be the protector of His chosen people.
But the text does not identify the restrainer, so any attempts by us is truly speculation or assumption. Therefore we should be careful to not be closed to other ideas concerning this matter but eliminate possibilities by way of using the Scriptures to do so.
You're quite correct: there's no trumpet sound mentioned in Revelation 19:11-21. In Matthew 24:31, it is the 'episunago' (gathering, or assembling, together in one place) of the Elect. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17, it is the 'harpazo' (the snatching away from one place to another place), of the Church. Different Greek words which require a different understanding & application, implying both a different type of 'removal' of believers. One, a gathering, the other, a snatching away. And this snatching away is a pre-emptive act before the appointed Great Tribulation of God: beginning in a modest limited way (at the beginning of the last seven years), but ending in the final outpouring of God's Wrath. And this is Revelation 19:11-21 (with no trumpet call), the descent of those prepared from Heaven for that final battle & eternal securing & suffering of the beast & his prophet. Thank you again Jimbob for the time, effort & patience you've given to this thread. Blessings.
The 1000 year period in Rev 20:2-3 is not a literal 1000 years. It began at the cross when Satan was "bound" so that he "should deceive the nations no more" and ended at the beginning of the Great Tribulation when Satan was "loosed for a little season". The Great Tribulation is the period in which we are living today where God has abandoned the churches and congregation ( 1 Pet 4:17) and God is no longer saving there and where Satan is actually ruling. We are now in a period of the Great Tribulation called the Latter Rain where God is saving a "great multitude which no man can number" ( Rev 7:9) outside of the churches. Once all of God's elect have become saved, Christ will return on the clouds of glory to resurrect / Rapture all True Believers and complete their salvation by giving them their resurrected spiritual bodies, begin Judgment Day when all of the unsaved and this sin cursed earth will be eternally destroyed, and Christ will create New Heavens and a New Earth where all True Believers will live and reign with Christ throughout eternity. God has revealed many teachings during this day regarding the end times, the nature of God's Judgement and Salvation program that have always been in the Bible but sealed until the time of the end. Read Daniel.
I understand this is contrary to the understanding of many and may be disturbing, especially to those that are still in the churches. But it is what I believe the Bible is teaching regarding the end times in which we are living. Please do not believe me. Read and study the Bible.
If you have been following my comments on Bible interpretation, you will understand why we may be arriving at different conclusions on some things.
We must keep in mind that Christ spoke in parables and without a parable spoke he not. And that we are to compare spiritual things with spiritual. That is the Bible is its own interpreter. Any conclusion we arrive at must harmonize with everything else the Bible is teaching on the subject.
Matthew 13:10-17
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Matthew 13:34,35
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
I have enjoyed your' and Chris' discussion and this is not to say I know anything and hope you don't mind. Just another understanding for study. I will only address one thing, being taken to heaven. I believe you and Chris agree on, just at different times.
I love this site and the people on it. The end times: we have been told to endure unto the end and for many of us living today that will be our death before Jesus returns, and how things unveil will not affect us, we will be asleep. What if we are still here when the end starts what are we looking for? Some things have not been revealed, so we must be ready to face anything by standing strong in our faith.
We must with an open mind study with prayer. Like the first thing Jesus said to His disciples on Mount Olive when they asked Him about the temple being destroyed. "Take heed that no man deceive you."
If we are still living when the end starts, what if it is different than what we are looking for? Are the last members of the Church more worthy to be spared than the first members of the Church? Millions of believers have been killed for their faith, by Jews, Romans, other nations, by the Roman Church, and if you read history, they continued the death penalty for what they considered heresy after the reformation, and today they are still being killed for their faith.
In 1 Thess. 4 where the understanding of the rapture of the Church and are taken to heaven. In 1 Thess. 4 the people were concerned the believers who had died will not be resurrected and be part of the kingdom because the ones living would prevent that. Paul's answer in 1 Thess. 4:15-18 was to comfort them that would not happen. It says and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Where in these verses, does it say after we meet Jesus in the air we go to heaven? No bible verse I have found, in the Old or New, says we go or are taken to heaven after the resurrection.
Where is the destination of the gathering?
God bless,
RLW
I feel I have intruded on you and Chris, forgive me if I have.
I will just touch on Matt. 24:40-41. I understand Matt. 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are twofold, parts for the disciples for instruction for what they would endure and things leading up to the destruction of the temple and also for who will be living at the end times. In context of the chapter, we see "the coming of the Son of man." three times in this chapter verses 27, 37, and 39.
Matt. 24:27 He will be seen coming as Rev. 1:7. In Matt. 24:29:31 after the tribulation the Son of man coming with power and great glory. Rev. 19:11-16, similar to Joel 2:11, Joel 3:13-17 Zechariah 14:1-9. My understanding this is about the Second Coming of Christ.
In Matt. 24:36 we do not know when and we must be ready, we do not know when our death will be, it could be now. Jesus second coming is after the tribulation of the beast, we must be ready to not be tempted and be strong in our faith to not take the mark to save this flesh. Luke covers Matt.24 40-41 and just before, he adds this. Matt. 16:25 Mk. 8:35
Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it, and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. God has said He will keep us from this, Rev. 3:10, but for those people who know the truth and refuse to receive it, He will send a delusion, 2 Thes. 2:11-12
In Matt. 24:37-39 as the days of Noah so shall also be the coming of the Son of man, the ones taken away in Noah's time were wicked. Matt.24:40-41 Why would it be the opposite of Noah's time? It is like the wheat and the tares at the end the ones taken will be burned in the lake of fire and the righteous will be left. At Jesus's return, the ones taken before the end will be where the eagles are, Luke 17:37 Ezek. 39:17-20 Rev. 19:17-21 the battle of Armageddon.
This is my understanding you may disagree and that is ok. Those in the first resurrection reign with Jesus on earth and there are only two resurrections.
God bless,
RLW
Thanks for your reply, here is a short version that may explain.
I tried to keep it short, my understanding of scripture is there is not a pre-tribulation rapture, also if rapture means being taken to heaven pre, mid, or post-tribulation, scripture does not support that. Much of that is based on the 70th week in Daniel my understanding has been fulfilled.
In scripture, the gathering of the saint's destination will be in Israel not heaven, when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, Luke 21:24, the same place the saints will be when Satan is released Rev. 20:7-10 when the armies of Satan will be devoured with fire. Then the final judgment.
Jesus's second coming is to set up the kingdom and to reign on earth, Rev. 19:11-21. On that day His feet shall stand on the ground from where He left, Acts 1:9 Zech. 14:4.
When Jesus returns, every eye shall see Matt. 24:27 Rev. 1:7 With a great sound of a trumpet, Matt. 24:30-31, At the last trump, 1 Cor. 15:52, With the trump of God, 1 Thes. 4:16, The seventh angel sounded the last trump Rev. 11:15-19.
Then the wrath of God when Jesus returns, Rev. 6:15-17. And as we see in Revelation there are two resurrections, the first, all who are resurrected will reign with Jesus on earth, not heaven.
Hope this makes sense, I understand there are different understandings, but it is good to have a loving and respectful discussion.
God bless,
RLW
My understanding 1 Thess. 4:16-17 is the same event as Matt. 24:30-31 1 Cor. 15:52 and verses in Revelation (the second coming of Jesus). In Revelation John covers different aspects of the same events in different chapters not in order. Rev. 10:7 in the days of the seventh trumpet, the mystery of God should be finished.
Rev. 11:15-19, the seventh angel sounds the seventh trumpet, "the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord." This is the same event as we see in Rev. 19:11-16. All of these are the same event, the last trumpet sounds to announce His coming and the first resurrection who will reign with Jesus on earth, not carried to heaven.
When Jesus returns and the armies which were in heaven that followed, are angels, the saints were not in heaven. Matt. 25:31 Matt. 13:39 Mark 13:26-27. The resurrected chosen and faithful from around the world will meet Jesus in the air on the way down to Israel and Jerusalem.
Then we see the bowls of wrath in Rev. 16. In Rev. 19:17-18 the angel called the fowls to the supper of the great God. Rev. 19:19-21 The battle of Armageddon. Then the beast and the false prophet were cast into the lake of fire, Satan is chained in the bottomless pit, and those in the first resurrection will reign with Jesus for one thousand years.
The marriage of the Lamb, the marriage supper, the bride, and the bride of the Lamb is only mentioned in Revelation. Rev. 19:7 Rev. 21:2 Rev 21:9 Rev. 22:17. When? It will be after all is made new, and where? It will be on the new earth. Jesus said this at the Last Supper, Matt. 26:29, Mark 14:25, and what the Spirit and bride said in Rev. 22:17.
I know my understanding may be different than yours and others, I could say more but this should show my understanding of this. I am thankful for this site and the brothers and sisters on it to be able to respectfully discuss the Bible.
I hope this answers your questions,
God bless,
RLW
I always took those Scriptures as our Lord telling us about His second (and only) coming a the end of history. when read what Paul explains in 1Cor. 15 and 2 Thess. 2 also speaking of the return of Christ at the end of history (the Day of the Lord. In reading these Scriptures from my teens and up to now, I have thought this. I was brought up in a church that did not speak much about end times. Only saying that Jesus will come again and He will judge the living and the dead; resurrect all people; bring the believers to heaven for eternity. And, yes, this is an eschatological viewpoint, but not an indepth one compared to those who have ascribed to an amillennial, preterist, premillennial, or dispensational mindset. I did not even know that these categories existed for most of my life.
So, I can say that my engagement with the Scriptures mentioned were much more uninfluenced by preconceptions of any of the eschatological viewpoints. I would have never understood any of these Scriptures referring to a secret Pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib rapture event separate and before the visible second coming of Jesus. But that does not mean that my view is unwaveringly true. It just means that I was approaching Scripture asking the Holy Sprit to help me understand.
It has only been recently that I have inspected the various eschatological viewpoints. I cannot say at this time that I am 100% behind any of them in all of their teachings. But at least I know that my understanding of these Scriptures were not because I was taught any particular eschatological approach.
Even so, we all should be humble and willing to consider what others have to say on this topic since it has not happened yet. I appreciate this conversation between you and Chris. It has been respectful and I sense that each of you sincerely wished to explore this topic between yourselves and present one's own viewpoint as clearly as one is able to do.
I agree with you. The Scripture that pre-trib rapture proponents us to "prove" this theory are really the revelation of the full second (and only) coming of Jesus Christ to "harvest" the saints and to bring in the time of God's wrath upon the unrighteous.
Dispensationalists look to Scripture with a pre-conceived lens of the tenets of dispensationalism. When one interprets Scripture within a particular "ideology grid" then the Scripture cited seem to prove the preconceptions. That can happen to those of us who are not dispensationalist, too.
It is very difficult to not bring preconceptions to the Scriptures. it takes a prayerful heart and mind to humbly seek God's truth.
For me, for 65 years as a Christian, I have not been exposed to the various eschatology views that Christians hold. I have not studied them until very recently due to being exposed to them on this forum. so, I cannot say that I had a set view. But from the time I was old enough and mature enough to read the Bible with understanding, I have always taken Jesus words in matt. 24 & 25 and Luke 17 as
d. the revelation of the anti-Christ is restrained ( 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12). Paul's reason for writing this was because the Church was greatly troubled that the Day of the Lord (Christ) had begun. Paul said that that day wouldn't commence until Jesus came for them & raptured them ("our gathering together unto him": v1). The 'restrainer' is the Holy Spirit in God's people, then when He is removed, God's people are removed, for the Holy Spirit was sent to indwell us & work in & through us & for the Gospel's propagation ( John 16:7,8,13).
e. a comparison between an imminent Rapture & Rapture at the Second Coming:
1. Translation of all believers ( 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18) --- No translation at all ( Revelation 19:6-21).
2. Raptured saints return to Heaven ( 1 Thessalonians 4:17; John 14:1-3) --- Raptured saints return to Earth ( 1 Thessalonians 3:13; Revelation 19:14).
3. Any moment, in readiness, without signs ( 1 Corinthians 1:7; Philippians 4:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:6; Titus 2:13; James 5:7-9; Revelation 3:11, 22:7,12,20) --- many signs given of the Great Tribulation which leads into Jesus' coming (so a readiness cannot be expected, as the seven year's count down begins with the anti-Christ).
A Pre-Tribulation Rapture position keeps the Church ready & watching for her Lord's Coming. Any other position can give her the tendency to apathy & carelessness. The Church is told to be watchful, in spite of ridicule, "where is the promise of his coming" ( 2 Peter 3:4). But Christ's coming is held back until the full number are saved (v9) - and then Jesus will come to take His Church Home.
There is only 1 promise seed which is the H.G. the good seed ,the living word of Jesus...My words are spirit and life much greater then paper and ink the written word that O.C.
...The written word can be molested and has been molested by many Religions and bibles....But the living word cannot be molested as the living word is God himself... John 1..Its only the living word that Jesus refered to as the Promise seed...
And Jim the scripture cannot always interpret the Scripture..Remember Jesus told Peter that flesh and blood did not reveal it unto you but by my father in Heaven...Which is the spirit...The deep things are hidden from the wise and prudent but only revealed unto the babes...That New Born in our lives the H.G.
If the scripture cd interpret the scripture the High Priest who knew the scripture wd not have instructed the ppl to cry crucify him..In so doing the whole of the levitical Priest hood wd be done away with...The curtain was rent from the top to the bottom....The deep things are hidden from the wise and prudent...They knew the scripture by heart but did not understand that a new covenant was on the horizon....And this N.C.was by his blood...Thus the book of life ( the blood ).... Jeremiah 31:31 I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and Judah...A N.C...And this N.C. is a birthing covenant...We are gona have a baby Christ which is the H.G. the Child of Promise. The son of man.
Revelation 13:11: of another beast. I understand this one to be representative of the False Prophet who is anti-Christ's lieutenant, if you will, speaking with the same authority & force as Satan himself. A deadly duo indeed. And we see this lieutenant again in Revelation 16:13 (all three are separate: Satan, anti-Christ, & the false prophet), Revelation 19:20 & Revelation 20:10. Yes, the dragon is Satan, but we can identify the beast & the false prophet as separate entities, coming from Satan.
And I agree with a lot of what you shared in your page 2, with the exception of course to the beast which speaks like a dragon; I don't believe this is Satan but the false prophet. And yes, it is in the first 42 months that the anti-Christ appears & causes this worldwide mayhem & God's Wrath being poured out during the second 42 months.
But our problem remains: when is the Rapture? Is it after the first 42 months, or before it? Again, my critical verses are 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9. How we understand the meaning of the 'restrainer', will most likely place us in the pre or post-trib position. Paul's readers were confused & agitated that the Day of the Lord had begun (as taught by the false teachers). Paul assured them that the 'restrainer' hadn't been removed yet, allowing the man of sin to be revealed & assume his dictatorship. But the question, 'who is he who restrains? Thank you again Jimbob for this lively & inspiring discussion; I appreciate the time you've given to it.
Though there is no mention of the anti-Christ in this chapter, it is understood that he has already been revealed & is raining his terror on any who disobey him (as in Revelation 13:4-8). But when God's Wrath is poured on Earth's inhabitants, the anti-Christ's days are also numbered ( Revelation 19:17-21).
And finally, 1 Corinthians 15:52, "at the last trump". I realize that it is commonly understood that the reference is to the last trumpet sounding in Revelation 15:20-19 & some others even connecting this phrase to the last of the trumpet blasts at the Jewish Feast of Trumpets (i.e. after all the trumpet blasts of various types/sounds are made, the final (LAST) long blast is sounded at the end). And yet, the 1 Corinthians 15:52 rendering in Greek, shows it as, 'the trumpet after which no other will sound'. It might then be that it isn't the seventh trumpet sound by the angel being referred to in Revelation 15, but it is at the final trumpet blast from the series of the other angelic blasts throughout that time of God's Wrath poured out. We might never come to a consensus on that one.
Anyway Jimbob, those are my thoughts: some in agreement with what you read in the Word, some not. There are several possibilities in all that we have presented & all these have value, but ultimately, it's where are understanding lies concerning the Church's departure to be with the Lord Jesus. Each person, holding their various Tribulation/Rapture positions, can certainly find Scriptures to support their belief; I wonder whether the Lord places great value on our exercises in studying the Word, but to leave the final interpretation & outcome to Him, He Who has all the right answers. Thank you again Jimbob.
I understand your position with the 'tribulation' that believers must go through, even escaping the Wrath of God (the Great Tribulation) that comes upon the World. Yet, I see that the Great Tribulation does not begin after the tribulations by the anti-Christ, but at the time of the anti-Christ's appearing ( 2 Thessalonians 2:1-7). Paul writes to the believers, in reference to Christ's Coming & their gathering together to meet Him (the Rapture of the saints). They were greatly troubled (affrighted, alarmed) by the false teaching given even false letters purporting to be from Paul himself, that the Day of Christ (or, Day of the Lord) had already begun, & they had missed it or were left out. Paul corrects them on this. That Day won't come till there's a great defection & rebellion against God & the anti-Christ be revealed. But what prevents the revealing of the anti-Christ? ( 2 Thessalonians 2:6,7). The Thessalonians already knew who or what constrains this revelation, but we're not told specifically by name. The only clue is "HE who now letteth..", which in Greek is "the one". If this One is God's Spirit (by my understanding), then it must mean that those with His Spirit are included; and this means that not only will believers be removed from the Earth, but the rest of Earth's inhabitants will no longer have the working of the Spirit before them or in them.
If God removes His Spirit from ministering on the Earth, this not only qualifies the removal of those so indwelt by Him & for evil to be let loose without constraint, but that the Day of the Lord has begun & the beginning of God's Wrath: first by His abandonment of the unbelieving world, then by the outpouring of His Anger & Judgement over it. The Day of the Lord will come suddenly upon them, as a thief comes, but that will not overtake those who believe, simply because we have not been appointed to receive God's Wrath for the world, but to receive His Salvation (we'll be gone). 1 Thessalonians 5:2-9.
I have a question for you if you don't mind?
If what you are saying is true, that "Jesus comes in the clouds to gather together His elect, the church after the tribulation," and you say the elect is the church, and if I remember correctly, you don't believe the word "tribes" is a Jewish term that refers to Jews, and I am assuming you are referring to Matthew 24:30 by this?
But my question is: why would the Church mourn? Wouldn't it make more sense that this is referring to the Jews, not the church?
That would make more sense to me. I can see why they (the Jews) would mourn. When they see Jesus coming in the clouds, it is then that they are going to realize who Jesus is. When they see Him coming in the clouds with the marks of His crucifixion, they are going to realize that they crucified their Messiah. That's why they will mourn.
Zechariah 12:20 says that when Messiah comes, they will look upon Him whom they have pierced. So at this time when Christ comes (at His second coming), the Jews who are left on the earth, they are going to mourn, and they are going to look at Jesus coming in the clouds, and go "Oh no, we crucified our Messiah, and here He is!"
If you are not referring to Matthew 24:30, then please accept my apology.
In your comment to Chris on Matthew 24, you said God shortens this time, or no flesh can be SAVED, and your right, CAN ONE BE SAVED NOW, if so then that great tribulation has already taken place.
It took pace from the time Jesus, left the supper table and went into the garden, was delivered up, and crucified on the cross.
The seven vial of Revelation; the wrath of God was poured out on Christ at this time.
No on could enter the temple until the plagues were fulfilled.
Anyone can enter the temple NOW, because the time was cut short, all wrath was poured out on Christ, It's already complete and the prophecies fulfilled.
It's all right here, in Mosses and the Prophets, if you put the scriptures in the RIGHT ORDER, all the pieces have to fit in the right place to be able to see the PICTURE.
God Bless YOU!
For the time is at hand ---- that which is, and was, and shall be ----
You weren't born when Christ fulfilled all, but you are given the words as if it's taking place NOW, the same would be true for someone living 500 years ago, as well as 500 years from now.
The Old saint were given the gospel but had to wait for the resurrection, you weren't born when all these prophecies were written, and fulfilled; but, they are reveal to you NOW, as if it where happening NOW.
God bless YOU!
Are the Prophecies in Revelation and the gospels any different than those in Mosses and the Prophets? Are, or they just a second witness?
There was no brick and mortar churches, no doctrines of those churches, until the apostles founded them.
How did the apostles and first men come to the truth of the KINGDOM OF GOD?
Luke 16:31 ....If they HEAR NOT Mosses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Acts 28:23 ....he (Paul) expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Mosses, and out of the Prophets, from morning till evening.
Galatians 1:17 Neither went I (Paul) up to Jerusalem to THEM which were apostles before me, but I went into Arabia (the wilderness) ......Where the Spirit taught him ......
Revelation 12:6 And the WOMAN (the bride of Christ, his church) fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, and there should feed her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
The disciples were feed by Christ for one thousand two hundred and threescore days, 42 months, 3 1/2 years, you and I are still being feed by that 3 1/2 year ministry, except NOW, Christ is WITHIN US, his second coming; but, we are still in the wilderness being feed.
Revelation 11:11 And after three days and a half (the great tribulation poured out on Christ) the Spirit of LIFE ( I am the Resurrection) from God entered into them ( those of OLD, the law and prophets, the old testament saints) --- Matthew 27:52-53 ---
Isaiah 26:19 ....with my dead body shall they arise .....
There are 2 deaths, 2 resurrections, 2 second comings and 2 judgements, one for the Firstfruits, feast of weeks, and one for the feast of the ingathering, AKA feast of tents, AKA feast of the tabernacles.
The woman, Christ bride, the church, rides the BEAST, and we are told TO COME OUT of here MY PEOPLE.
God Bless You!