Bible Discussion Thread Page 2

Back to the use of 'hyperbole' in the Bible, David 0921. Hyperbole, or 'an obvious & intentional exaggeration' (Dictionary), is found throughout the Bible. Here in Psalm 58:3 (a babe speaking lies at birth; the emphasis here is on the depth of wickedness found in some people). Is this God's Word? Yes it is. Can God use such language (through his servants) to communicate to us? Yes He can. Are we required then to believe that a new born child speaks lies, or should we learn from such hyperbolic language of the severity of wicked men?

Lest we think that this is just a rare occasion of such language, we could consider other Scriptures: Deuteronomy 1:28 (cities walled up to the (skies)); Jesus' Own Words: Matthew 19:24 (a camel going through a needle's eye); Luke 14:26 (hating family & one's own life, though 'hate' used as the strongest term for 'total rejection'); Matthew 5:29 (gouging out the eye); John 4:39 (the woman's testimony that Jesus told her every account of her life); and many more.

So all these are given as irrefutable words that God has allowed into it, including hyperbolic language, metaphors, similes. Yet, they are to be understood as such, or else our understanding would take a dangerous divergent turn that can only lead to error. Which hopefully leads us to the 'eternity' question: are the descriptions of hell or an eternal raging fire for all the unrepentant, factual or simply use of hyperbolic language? So here we have the problem: why would Jesus refer to that time using that type of language, as also the apostles did (or alluded to it), when only the grave is the final destiny of the unsaved? Understood, that heaven & an eternal life in all purity & happiness with our Great God & Savior should be the desire of all; but is this wonderful message alone, sufficient to cause sinners to truly repent & yearn for God's forgiveness, rather, as there is an eternity of bliss, so there is also an eternity of woe that Christ came, giving us an escape route?

Chris,

Allow me to make one other comment regarding hyperbole.

Who decides when God is using hyperbole and when he is not? Who decides when God is exaggerating for effect Rather than stating a fact? Is Romans 3:10-18 hyperbole? Is man's condition really that bad? I could give countless other examples that can take us in any direction that suits us.

In the passage we are discussing could "speaking" refer not to a verbal language, but to what is in the sin infected heart or spirit of mankind from birth.

When we begin to apply the methods that mankind may use in writing to interpret the Word of God, our understanding becomes very subjective and of "private interpretation".

And that is a snare that will lead us away from truth, not into truth.

I never want to even tinker with that idea.

Thank you again David0921. Clearly, we don't agree on the meaning of God's Authorship of the Bible; i.e. we believe that the Bible is God's Word, but your belief is that every word or phrase given therein matches what God had spoken. To this I disagree, so we will need to leave that matter out.

You asked, "who decides when God is using hyperbole (language)?" Well to answer that, I would have to say, that I, the reader would, because I, the reader am expected to read God's Word, understand it & digest it. If I can convince myself that camels can go through a needle's eye or a great many good believers staying true to the Word, are walking amongst us with a gouged out right eye, then yes, every Word in the Bible must be understood literally. Hopefully, I have been blessed with a little common sense, and so I refuse to be swayed with nonsense.

You shared from Romans 3:10-18. Yes, man's spiritual condition is really that bad, but do we in our wicked state have the poison of asps under our tongues or all our throats resemble open sepulchres. We should understand the state & extent of their wickedness, but the use of metaphors is quite normal to drive the meaning home. So is God "exaggerating for effect rather than stating a fact? On this passage, I would say that as Paul took reference to Psalm 5:9 & somewhat to Deuteronomy 32:32,33, Paul confirmed what has always been man's unregenerate state, where all these references have used metaphors for effect to highlight the fact.

And yes, in Psalm 58:3 that is exactly what is implied: not a verbal language from a babe but from a sin-infected heart from birth. But the basic problem we have here is how much that we read is exactly what God has given for man to record & how much of it has man placed from his own knowledge & experience. The fact that God has allowed all of it shows that Truth is what matters not the verbatim production of the Word, which could never happen.

Chris,

God does not speak in "Hyperbole". But he does often speak in "parables".

If God is truly the author of the entire Bible, and he is. Then the Bible becomes its own dictionary, and we can compare how God uses a word or phrase in one part of the Bible with any other part of the Bible to come to an understanding. If every word or phrase in the Bible is not indeed from the mouth and mind of God himself, then we can't do that.

So again, I'm sad to say, you and I are working from different authorities as we seek to come to truth.

I agree David0921 that what we read in the Word of God IS the Word of God to us, yet I think we might understand this a little differently. I think of 2 Timothy 3:16 which reminds us that "ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God", i.e. God-breathed through the instrument of man. I then ask myself, to help me come to grips with this statement, were these men of God who were God's instruments to hear & record God's Words to them, lacking control of their faculties (i.e. had they become almost robotic in God's Hands) when penning those words? Or were they simply recording God's Words as heard, or writing what they believed were true & accurate accounts, but were invisibly being inspired & moved by God's Spirit? Somewhat like a pastor preparing his Lord's Day message; after first seeking the Lord's Face, he begins his preparation (whether by thought, message points & Scriptures, or a fully written out sermon). He could well say that those words recorded were his own, yet knowing full well that there was a clear inspiration & leading in his thoughts & eventual delivery.

Likewise, what we read in Psalm 58:3 were essentially David's words recorded but inspired by God's Spirit & for their recording. So the difference in how we understand it might be small, but my belief is that both God's Word coupled with David's word are seen here, as throughout all Scripture (exceptions of course, when God is speaking directly). In the case of Sodom & Gomorrah, true, all were destroyed by God as the volume of their sin forced God's Hand to act. But God is both the Author, Creator, & Destroyer - yet we're not told of those very little ones, yet untarnished with sin, as to their destiny. You may believe that death was their collective punishment - I believe that at least some were spared from hell.

I'll come back to the Bible's use of 'hyperbole' next, which is still God's Word but cannot be taken to be literal; it should be understood as language used to bring on an emphasis.

Chris,

If I am reading your comment correctly, you really do not believe that God is indeed the AUTHOR of the entire Bible; that every single word or phrase in the Bible is from the very mouth of God himself. This is not a small nor insignificant difference in how we view the Bible. And our view will color every single verse or passage that we read in the Bible.

If that is truly your understanding, We each have a different authority from which we are trying to understand truth. And we can never come to an agreement on many many very important doctrines in the Bible, I am sorry to say.

Yes David0921, I also believe that "we can never come to an agreement on many many very important doctrines in the Bible", simply because our beliefs don't align with how the Bible was written & given to us. If "God is indeed the AUTHOR of the entire Bible..every word, phrase...from the mouth of God", then I would think that I wouldn't understand a word of it. But God used human men charged with His Spirit to communicate His Word to us for our benefit. And this goes even further away from the original Voice & Word of God, when that first delivery has since been translated into a variety of languages using a variety of texts from a variety of sources. So is God's Word that you read today in the KJB, exactly the same as what God spoke? It can never be, but its Truths, manner of human involvement & Divine help with their memory & subsequent translations, can provide us as close as possible to God's actual Voice. If we should believe that the KJB (or any translation) is the product of what God said verbatim, I believe that any check (if it were at all possible), would highlight the differences. Truth is retained - but not to the point of exact, word-for-word delivery.

The only two instances I can recall (there may be others), where we see the Finger of God at work, are in Exodus 31:18 & Daniel 5:5,24-28. Of course, we know of many instances where those like Abraham, Moses, Jacob, & others heard directly from God & recorded what they heard. Unless they were writing all things down as they were hearing from God, there will always be some differences in words used, sentence construction, etc., alongwith the many copies, fragments, translations, and so on. This, in my mind, in no way alters what God has to say to us & what we have in our hands is what God wants us to read. But to believe that every jot & tittle is exactly the same as given, is too far-fetched for me.

Chris,

I appreciate your honesty in expressing your view regarding the Nature of the Bible. That view, to one degree or another, is I believe the view held in the churches of our day. And is the reason that we have such divergent views on so many critical doctrines among the various churches and denominations of our day.

The Holiness and Authority of the Bible has deteriorated in the churches to such a point that they have become almost unrecognizable in many of their beliefs and practices from even a few decades ago.

And because of this I believe we are living in the day where 1 Peter 4:17 and 2 Thessalonians 2:6-12, and other end time passages are in play.

God did not write the Bible so that it is easy to read and understand. He wrote it in a way that we must search it out in order to find Truth; and God Himself must lead us into Truth from the Bible as we apply the principles that God has laid out, not man. He wrote the Bible in such a way to not only reveal Truth, but to hide Truth.

But I am certain that God is in control and is working out His plan for this world in exact accordance with His Word, the Bible.

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Page 2.

Secondly, a parable does not reveal people's names or places - for if they did, then it no longer is a parable (a simple story) but a true account with real people. So in the case of Luke 16:19-31 for example, people's names are given (Lazarus & Abraham), names which shouldn't appear in a parable; once names are given then the implication is that those people & events are real & not just a story with a message. If the story teller just used proper names or places (e.g. Lazarus & Abraham or anyone else in a parable) glibly, then he could justifiably said to be a liar, for those people did not actually exist in the story given.

Lastly, I believe in the eternal nature of the human spirit/soul - it can never be destroyed. So here then is a further hurdle we have to deal with, as to the destiny of the 'real' person, even if the body lies & disintegrates in the earth. Just thought to share these points at the outset so you know where I'm coming from. Blessings.

Hi David0921,

Good discussion: my understanding of scripture is as yours, man will not be in the lake of fire for eternity, but also somewhat different. In Daniel 12:2 John 5:24-29 Revelation 20:11-15 we see all good, bad, and ugly will be resurrected so everyone will have a conscious existence to answer and be accountable on judgment day, the last day, and my understanding is that is Revelation 20:11-15.

Greek philosophy of the immortal soul has influenced the understanding of death so, if the soul is immortal and cannot die the burning in hell/lake of fire will be forever. Scripture says to me we are mortal, Romans 8:11 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 2 Corinthians 5:4. We see in Genesis 2:7 that man became a living soul, not a soul was placed in man, so when that breath of life/spirit is gone the body/soul is dead. The breath of life, Ecclesiastes 12:1-8 there will we be until the resurrection.

I could say more but in short, just for consideration, if there is eternal punishment, on resurrection day the unsaved will be given what scripture says only the saved will receive, an immortal body and eternal life? "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" So, the penalty for sin will be eternally over and done with, no more sin, and no more death for eternity, forever and ever.

God bless,

RLW

Hi Ronald, was thinking of you this morning. Glad to have you posting here today.

Hi GiGi,

Thank you for thinking of me, I am here every day, just not inspired to reply. Your son is in my prayers along with your sisters.

As long as our love is for each other we are ok.

God bless,

RLW

Ronald, glad you are keeping up with the conversations here.

My son, Brian, is in Singapore right now waiting for his wife to have her immigration interview next Wednesday. If it goes well then she will be able to come home with him with a green card visa.

My other son, Kevin, just became engaged to his fiance. She is from Kenya and is here completing her college dergree. They plan to get married July 7th. Her Visa expires in September, but it may be different for them since they will be married in the U.S.

So, we are hoping all goes well with her and her immigration also.

Thank you for keeping my sisters in your prayers. I have not spoken to them since last summer after my mom's passing. But i continue to pray for them.

My husband just finished his last work of week last week. Now he is officially retired. He is on a long motorcycle ride today. Left early in a.m. and will be home after dinner time tonight. he loves riding his motorcycle and now he can go any day he wishes.

Ronald, we always welcome your contribution here.

Hi GiGi,

Things sound good. Your hubby, that is so cool, I used to ride in the 70s, still have M on my driver license. Love you guys.

God bless,

RLW

Rev 20:11-15,

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Rev 19:20,

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

Rev 20:10,,

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER."

The wages of sin is death : Proverbs : Pro Ch 2 V 21+22 , Pro Ch 8 V 35+36 , Pro Ch 10 V 28+V 30 , Pro Ch 11 V 4 + 19 + 31 , Pro Ch 13 V 13 , Pro Ch 19 V 16 , Pro Ch 21 V 15 , and finally Pro Ch 30 V 4-6 . Next , later tonight , I will go through Ecclesiastes and start to go through Isaiah and hopefully post all those references . God is not unjust or unfair or unclear , He speaks plainly , He wants us to understand , show me , as many times as I have shown that the wages of sin is death , that sinners live for ever in a place of torture . Sinners die and stay dead . The gift of God , to those who believe , is the gift of eternal life in Christ . If sinners live for ever then they don't die do they ? They also live forever in a place of torture . Where does it say that sinners live for ever ? It says that sinners die . How can they be dead if they are alive in hell suffering eternal torture ? More references to come later .

Hi Jema,

Jesus tells us below - that we should fear God as He can cast us into hell.

Luke 12:4-5

4And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Here a just a few of many verses stating that the unjust/unbeliever/unrepentant sinner will suffer for eternity in Hell.

Luke 16:22-25

Matt 25:41

Matt 3:12

Matt 25:46

Daniel 12:2

Mark 9:44-49

2 Thess 1:8-9

Rev 20:10

Rev 14:10-11

I know in the world we live in today, the popular belief among many preachers and Christians is that God is only good, kind, loving, and forgiving, and because of this - He will not throw anyone into Hell - to suffer for eternity. But that God will only leave us dead for eternity. This kind of teaching is false doctrine and does not conform to the bible, and Jesus own words. As Christian's we must always have a healthy fear of God.

Proverbs 1:7

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."

God tells us Hell is real!

Read and Believe!

Dear Brother Dan , hello again :) . With reference to the other scriptures you posted ( Mat , Dan , Mark , 2nd Thess ) I honestly don't see how , from these scriptures which talk about ghehenah , which is the valley of the son of Hinnom , and everlasting contempt and destruction , how could anyone get from that that people live forever in a place of torture . The last two references from Revelation are to do with things yet to take place , this lake of fire and brimstone is where , in the future , the devil and the beast and the false prophet will eventually be cast into . It ties in with Matthew Ch 25 V 41 : depart from me , ye cursed , into everlasting fire , prepared for the devil and his angels . When will this happen ? V 31 When the Son of Man shall come in his glory and all the holy angels with him . That's when they ( who are they ?) will be cast into this fire , when Christ returns to earth and ressurects the nation of Israel both Jews and Christians ( Amos Ch 3 V 2 ) we can find out exactly who it is that will be cast into this lake of fire with the devil and the beast and the false prophet by reading Matthew Ch 25 V 31- 46 . I do believe that the little verse in Amos Ch 3 V 2 , to be very significant , there are no extraneous irrelevancies in the Bible and it interprets itself .So , I think that I've explained my beliefs to clearly and given scriptural references to show you why I believe the way I do . Thankyou for your time and I've very much enjoyed being able to share with you in such a friendly manner , if you have any questions for me or would like to chat more on this subject I am very happy to do so .

Hi Jema,

Thank you for your recent responses. I believe that currently, we have a differing view on the subject of death, and hell. This subject comes up from time to time, and a fresh new thread may be beneficial at some point going forward. This thread is getting a little long so I will try keep this a short response without additional scripture.

You stated that Jesus spoke in parables, yes He did, but much that he spoke about was not in parables, and He can be taken very literally. An example is the verse that I gave you below:

Luke 12:4-5

4And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Jesus tells us to fear God because not only can He kill us, He can also send us to hell! I think you believe that Satan and his demons will go to hell.if so, this is the same hell.

If it is as you seem to believe; that when we die as a sinner, we just remain dead forever, Jesus would have plainly said that, and he did not. There would also be no need for a resurrection of "all souls" the just and unjust - for judgement - which is also stated plainly throughout the bible.

GB

Hello Bro Dan,

So good to hear from you! You.ve been very quiet on here for some time. Glad that you are still with us.

Hi Gigi,

Thanks for the nice welcome back!



I've missed this site, and interacting with many of the folks here, including all of the regulars. I've taken some much needed time away to relocate our residence, and attend to the family, and all of the issues associated with getting settled into our new area, including some new work demanding more of my time now, than in the past.

It's so nice to see you are still very active here, along with some of the other regulars. I will check in from time to time, as time allows. Gigi, I have always admired all you do on this site to encourage and pray for so many people, and the good conversation, and sharing of all of your scriptural knowledge is a wonderful gift, and I truly believe that it is Spirit inspired!

God Bless You!

Dear Brother Dan , with reference to the two scriptures you gave me from Luke : Ch 12 V 4+5 the word used in the Greek is ghehenah and it refers to a valley just outside of Jerusalem , the valley of the son of Hinnom or Ge-Hinnom , its first mentioned in Joshua Ch 15 V 8 . Excavations in that very area seem to indicate that it was used in ancient times as a rubbish tip and an incinerator . That would explain the constant burning / fire . As we know , Jesus spoke in parables . As for Ch 16 V 22-25 , there is a fascinating article on a site , I don't know if I'm allowed to say it but I can say the writers name I think ? Dr Nicholas J . Schaser , the site is called Israel Bible Weekly and it's fab . According to him , I will try to keep this brief , we Christians make the mistake of thinking that the rich man is below Lazarus , when in fact they are both on the same level , to lift up one's eyes is an ancient Hebrew idiom , used also in Genesis Ch 22 V 4 + 13 , it means to scan the horizon , read the Genesis references and that will make it clearer . The hell of V 23 is Hades , Hades is where all the dead go ( the grave ) while they wait for the ressurection . The bosom of Abraham is to Jews , a place of peace , love and joy and comes from the Jewish book of Jubilees Ch 22 V 26 : the two of them ( Abraham and Jacob ) lay down in one bed and Jacob slept in Abraham's bosom . Lazarus experiences this in Hades as he awaits his ressurection . John Ch 1 V 18 could be referring either to God or Abraham as Jews often called Abraham their father . This also gives us a more significant understanding of John Ch 13 V 23 perhaps ? The article is excellent , as is the site . Remember Jesus spoke in parables that his listeners at that time would , hopefully , understand . More later .

Dear Brother Dan , thankyou so much for replying to me . I do hope that everyone on here who participates in this topic can do so as respectfully as you have , it's a hot one I know :) . I've written down the references you posted and I'm going to go through each one today and hopefully get back to you tonight . There is that big question that I asked though , if the soul that sins dies , how can it be alive everlastingly in hell ? The gift of eternal life is given by God to those who believe in Him and in His Son . The wages of sin is death , so how do sinners end up with eternal life in a place of torture ? I would love someone , anyone to give me an answer to that question . I shall get back to you later regarding the references you posted . Thanks for engaging in this hot topic so openly and in such a friendly manner , I love to talk about these things but I'm afraid of things turning aggressive but I don't think I need to worry about that with you . Get back to you tonight .

The wages of sin is death . This is such a simple statement , I have no idea why so many can't seem to grasp it . Genesis Ch 7, is there any mention of the punishment of these sinners being eternal life in a place of torture ? Why doesn't God proclaim in His Word , if you sin you will die and your soul will spend eternity in a place of torture ? Why doesn't God ever mention this ? Why wouldn't He warn us , in very plain language , frequently , He loves us , so why wouldn't He be telling His prophets to warn us that we will be tortured for eternity if we don't obey Him . Deut Ch 4 V 2 , Deut Ch 30 V 17+18 the punishment for idolatry is death . 1st Sam Ch 2 V 6-10 , Job Ch 18 is all about what will happen to the wicked , where does it say that they shall spend eternity alive in hell being tortured ? Do we not think that God would warn them if this if it were true ? Job Ch 20 , pretty much the same , no mention of eternal life in a hellish torture chamber , why not ? Job Ch 24 V 19+20 , Job Ch 36 V 5-12 . The Psalms : Ps 1 V 4-6 , Ps 5 V 4-6 , Ps 6 V 5 , Ps 9 V 5 , Ps 11 V 6 , Ps 17 V 14 , Ps 31 V 17 , all of Psalm 37 , all of Psalm 49 , Ps 52 V 5 , Ps 55 V 23 all of Psalm 73 and 88 , Ps 92 V 7 , Ps 101 V 7+8 , Ps 115 V 17 , Ps 145 V 20 , Ps 146 V 3+4 , next I'll go on to Proverbs .

David921

AMEN Brother David 921:

As God shines light into darkness we are always repenting of the beliefs of the flesh and growing in the grace of God.

I believe as you keep studying and God keeps teaching you, you will keep growing in truth.

I believe you will realize that death of unbelievers is not ETERNAL; but for a specified time, he presently is gathering the priest ONLY; into the kingdom of God, then he will resurrect ALL flesh that has died in unbelief back to their flesh and blood bodies, they will be judged by Christ and his priest and brought to TRUTH, that is the second death describe in Revelation.

Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature WAITETH for the MANIFESTATION of the Sons of God.

They died in unbelief and are wanting in the grave, for the Sons of God to be gather to judge the world.

Romans 8:21 For the creature itself ALSO (second resurrection) shall be DELIVERED from the bondage of corruption (death and the grave) into the GLORIOUS liberty of the children of God (through judgement).

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's WORK shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be save, YET as by FIRE (judgement).

Isaiah 26:9 ...when thy JUDGEMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants SHALL LEARN righteousness.

1 Corinthians 15:28 When God has put all thing under Christ, GOD will be ALL in ALL.

Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth ALL in ALL.

God bless you.

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David0921....I disagree with you in the spirit of love....The new heaven and new earth is simply our new hearts and new spirits....That New CREATURE....As Isaiah 66:22 says as the new heaven and the new earth shall remain so shall thy seed and name remain......The seed of the sower is gona form Christ in US.....Which is the gift of God the H.G. his NAME sake...Which is the Children of Promise....An Israel of God....My lil Children of whom i travail in birth till Christ is formed in you....Which is the H.G. the Child of PROMISE.....David there is absolutely nothing wrong with this earth or the heavens.....Its mans evil adamic nature our Spirits that is satanic....Thats y Jesus said outa of the hearts of man proceeds all manner of evil.....Thats one of the reasons Jesus died was to destroy the works of the devil....All Sin is of the devil as John said....When he the spirit of truth is come he will reprove the WORLD of sin and Judgement and righteousness....Which is the womans Child of Rev 12:5....That is gonna rule all nations....Thats y God is telling us I will give them a new heart and a new spirit....Which is that New Covenant that Jesus gave us at Calvary.....The new book of life that Jesus wrote with his own blood....Whosoever was not found written in this book of life that Jesus wrote with his own blood at Calvary was cast into the lake of fire....As our God is a consuming fire....Which is baptism of the H.G. and FIRE....That y Jesus said every sinner has to have his part in the lake of fire.....As our God is a consuming fire that is gona consume mans adamic nature the kindling.....Thats y Jesus says he came to bring fire on the earth....But the new heaven and new earth is not literal.....Its just prophetic of our new hearts and new spirit....But the Kingdom is gonna be here on this earth....As Rev.11:15 says the Kingdoms of this world have become the Kingdoms of our lord and his Christ and he shall reign for ever and ever....And we shall reign on this earth.Gb

Amen AMEN ! I have to go out now but latter today I will respond a bit more to you if that's ok , I have read a lot of old posts on this site and you should know that anyone and everyone else that has said pretty much the same as you , has been lambasted until they disappeared from this site , so be prepared ! God bless you for your bravery ! Be assured , I know very many other Christians , who like myself have come to the very same conclusion as you , you are not alone . Much love to you in Christ .

Thank you Jema for that encouragement.

We must always remember that any truth we may have come to is not because we are smarter or wiser than any one else. It is God Himself that must reveal truth to us from His Word, if indeed He has. And He will do that in accordance with His good pleasure on His time table, not ours.

I will say that I did not come to my beliefs regarding the nature of God's Judgment and Salvation Programs and my current understanding of end time events and what God declares about the churches and congregations of our day, solely by my own personal study while isolated somewhere in an ivory tower. But I have been blessed by faithful Bible teachers that have diligently searched the scriptures faithfully applying the principles of Bible interpretation that God has given us in the Bible itself. Some of that teaching can be found today in the ministry of SearchingHisWord and Alameda Bible Fellowship as I referenced previously.

We must also recognize that there are certain truths that could not be understood even by True Believers until we approach the time of the end as we read in Daniel 12:4

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

And Habakkuk 2:3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.

So if there was ever a time when we should be "searching the scriptures to see if these things be so", it is now.

Mr. Spencer,

I agree that we are to proclaim truth in the face of error. But Jema has made some good points.

God commands us to love our enemies. To pray for them. It is not the job of the True Believer to pass judgement on any individual. If we want to find sin we need only look in the mirror.

It is our job to proclaim the True Gospel. And to do it with a humble spirit. Always recognizing that it is only God's Mercy and His good pleasure that we have come to any truth, if indeed we have.

Hi David.

Thanks for your reply,

However I don't quite know where you are coming from.

You stated; "God commands us to love our enemies. To pray for them. It is not the job of the True Believer to pass judgement on any individual. If we want to find sin we need only look in the mirror."

Let me make this clearer.

I said that that false doctrine that has been presented from this group for better than 3 years is sinister.

Then I gave the parallel with their beliefs.( All of man king becoming Gods) with the scripture on Satan/Lucifer found in Isaiah 14:14.

And I eluded to them saying over this same period of time the Gospel we preach was of man.

I say again, yes there's something sinister about that.

Where's the passing of Judgment you mentioned?

Should I agree with them for the sake of peace?

Find the recent thread where I spoke to them un truthfully that would cause Jema to react in such a personal way.

How do we show love to our enemies? Shun the Gospel that the reject?

Brother what you are describing is them condemning themselves!

I just declared there beliefs and have you noticed they haven't denied it.

God bless

Mr. Spencer,

I was not suggesting in my comment that we should not call out false teaching when we hear it. We should. And I was not criticizing your doing that with the teachings that these individuals are proclaiming.

My comment was meant more as a general attitude and mindset that I think we should have as we do this.

It was not meant as a personal rebuke to you in any way.

Hi David.

My apologies brother, I may have taken that wrong.

Sorry for such a late response, I just made it home from off a long trip.

It's late here on the east coast.

I'm off to bed.

God bless you.

HI Jema.

Yes we have freedom of speech as the world gives.

What is important to spiritual growth is truth!

That's what we earnestly seek for.

If one decide to minister on this site he has the freedom to do so.

If one decide not to minister he has the freedom to do so.

If one decide to treat this community as a round table he has that freedom and if one takes the word of God to be handed serious he had that freedom.

Freedom goes on and if it's freedom you want, give it and expect it from everyone including me.

I'm not giving my opinion, I'm repeating what they have literally said out their own mouth!

If the accusation is false that's one thing but if it's true and is as easy as asking them, feel freely to do so.

In other words ask them directly and they should tell you directly that which they have said "We will be Gods and the Gospel which we preach is man made.

If it don't bother you when they say it don't let it bother you when I repeat it.

This is a King James site and what's written in it tells us to mark such a person.

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. Romans 16:17.

Galatians 1:8-9.

Titus 3:10.

2 John 1:10-11.

Sometimes it's easier to know what the bible says than to do what it says.

God bless.

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Hi Charlie.

Here's the short of it.

There's some on the site that holds to the belief that we will ALL be Gods.

Every person to have exit the womb will some day be Gods.

One day the worst sinners to ever live will not only go to heaven whether they repents or not but they will be Gods.!

In Isaiah 14:14 Satan says he will be "like" the Most High.

This group takes it further and says we all "WILL BE THE MOST HIGH! and they say there is no Satan, he was the flesh.

There's no consequences for sin!

We preach the Gospel (Good news) They say that's man's doctrine and you are going to be Gods no matter what you believe!

The delivery of this message is so important to them that they charge their name frequently.

You've been talking to them.

God bless.

Their false message is aa

Yes Mr. Spencer,

I have noticed that same thing, having been commenting on this site for only a relatively short time. These individuals are quite apparent and I would personally not want to engage them, once discovered, other than to point them to the Bible and leave it there.

Fortunately we have at our disposal the only source book of absolute Truth, the Bible, which should always be our ultimate authority. We should not hesitate to check out or challenge anything we are being taught or even anything we may have believed, going back to the Bible again and again. Praying, very humbly, that God might lead us into truth and correct where needed. Recognizing that it is only by God's Mercy that He opens the understanding of anyone of us.

Amen David.

The bible teaches Satan has his ministers amongst us along with other demonic forces and scripture tells us how to discover them and to mark them.

However some blends in very well!

No where in scripture does it says defend them.

One thing they can't do is to be caused to Love the Brothern!

God night and God bless.

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