Bible Discussion Thread Page 3

Hi Gigi.

Thanks for your reply.

Part 1

You stated, " If God chose to have you be aware of believing in Him from a very early age, that is God's sovereign choice for you.

(AS FOR THE OTHERS), infants and very young children can be given faith and believe BUT IT IS NOT IN THE SAME MANNER AS ADULTS.

So, what I gather here is that God with his "sovereign choice' gave you faith and belief at the age of 3 in the same manner as adults.

And you gave the illustration of King David saying that God caused him to trust in Him while he was at His mother's breast. But an adult trusts God in a more metacognitive way.

Gigi you are referring to Psalms 22:9. Here is how it reads; "But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.

Gigi Psalms 22:1-21 is a portrait of the thoughts of Christ on the cross.

This is not speaking of King David.

Psalms 51:5 is what King David has to say. "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Gigi this limited Atonement you are describing now as an Adult, is this also what you believed in when you were 3 years old?

That God 's offering of Christ is only for his elect?

That God will send the rest to hell but somehow, he chose you as a 3-year-old and many others at that age will remain lost and go to Hell.

"Some here do not believe in Hell so please spare me." But you have said you do believe in Hell.

Is this the same knowledge you had when you had the faith, belief, and understanding of an Adult at the age of 3?

Gigi, I remember believing any and everything my parents and grandparents said.

We were brought up and taught about the lord by them as for many people.

However, that faith I had was faith I had in "THEM." My belief was in THEM. The relationship was with THEM, NOT GOD!

A baby doesn't know what denying Christ mean!

My salvation as well as anyone at that age is completely in God's Love and mercy for our youthful understanding.

See Part 2.

Dear Gigi , the one thing I find most interesting about your beliefs is the one thing that you don't share , why you believe what you do ? Where does your belief , that babies and very young children who die are saved , come from ? I can find no evidence to support this , just the opposite in fact . Please , if it's there in the Bible , tell me where it is , thank you .

Hello Jaz,

I base my thoughts on the how God saves infants and children on what Jesus said about infants and children in the Gospels. He is clear that we are to have childlike faith as those children who we brought to Him did. So, He is saying that infants and children can have true faith and be saved by Him. I don't think it is an allegory, parable or metaphor because the event of the children being brought to Him (recounted by two gospel writers, whether one event told twice or two separate events) occurred and Jesus was speaking to the disciples concerning their reaction towards the children pointing out that it differs markedly from His desire.

Comment to All__

on infants and children

MotherMac

To All:

I am unable to discuss faith and salvation in depth as you in this group so fluently express yourselves.

When I find myself unsure about a subject or a religious issue, like the one on salvation for infants and children now being discussed,there are two scriptures I rely on to help me

move pass this obstacle.

The first one is Isaiah 55:8__

The second one is

Proverbs 3:4,5,6___

Lord thank you for Grace, for your loving kindness and Mercy for forgiveness when I error. Amen.

Hello Mother Mac,

Thanks for adding these Scriptures to our conversation. May you be very blessed today in your walk with our Lord and Savior.

Thank you GiGi for those thoughts.

May God in His sovereign mercy lead us into truth as we search the scriptures. Praying constantly that God might open our understanding as we compare scripture with scripture applying the principles that God Himself lays down in His Word.

Chris

Pt. 2

But the most important aspect of all is the glory of God in being gracious to whom He determines He will be gracious to and merciful to whom He chooses to be merciful to.

So, I will begin with this because this has been on my heart in all of this discussion.

I believe that all that God does concerning creation is to bring glory to Himself. In acting on all of the perfect attributes of His divine nature He not only glorifies Himself within the Trinity, but also displays His glory to all of creation and in all that He does in time and space (all that is outside of Himself).

In my post on His sovereign grace, I spoke of how He allowed sin to dome forth in creation and how He dealt with the angels who sinned and those who did not in the first rebellion of created beings towards God.

I think that most humans would agree that God's election of the angels He would not allow to sin in the rebellion and the damnation of the fallen ones is just and righteous. Most humans have no concern that God did not chose to redeem the fallen angels nor do most humans not question that God in His wisdom and sovereignty chose to elect more angels than not to remain sinless forever.

But when it comes to humanity, humans have more concern and humanitarian attitudes concerning God sovereignly choosing some to be elected to receive salvation and most of humanity not chosen by Him before the creation of the world. It is natural for us to feel concerned why God did not elect everyone, or that there are billions of people who will go into the lake of fire, since He is certainly capable of electing everyone and bringing all to salvation by grace, We can be disturbed by what He chose because we certainly would determine salvation to all instead of for some. This aspect of God's sovereignty baffles me, but I know that I must remember that we are His creatures and He is the Creator; that He is really more not like us than similar to us; cont. to part 3

Good Evening Chris,

It has been a busy week with plumbers, construction workers and electricians taking turns at the house. Plus, with the new baby in the house we are taking turns entertaining, holding, and helping her get to sleep until it is time for mom to feed her again.

I wanted to get back to you concerning the present conversation about regeneration, election, predestination, and salvation. This is such an important and worthwhile discussion for all believers.

First of all, we can each be so thankful to God for His sovereign grace towards us of which He saves us. We can be assured that we have been elected by God to receive all of the promises of complete redemption in His Son our Lord, Jesus Christ. So, in a very real way, we are on the other side looking back in time for us as we consider how God worked in our own lives to bring us to salvation. And that is a blessed place to be when considering this topic.

I wrote an entry today about God's sovereignty and His complete freedom in His will to bestow grace to those He would save.

If you read that you may see more of why I believe that regeneration (being born from above (jn, 3: 1-8) precedes us believing the gospel message and trusting Jesus for our salvation.

Tonight I wanted to itemize some terms that have been put forward in this thread and then exchange our views on what these terms mean biblically.

I think the best way to start is to discuss the condition of every human prior to the new birth. So, that term is often spoken of as human depravity.

Then we can speak about God's election from eternity past.

Foreknowing

Predestination,

Election

Then move on to how we come to faith in Jesus.

Calling



Regeneration,

Belief,

Repentance

Conversion

Redemption

Then we could speak about the great unmerited benefits God bestows on those who have become reborn

forgiveness of sins

justification

adoption as children of God

sanctification

glorification

Hello Chris,

We did have a good time away. Haven't done that for a while, so we are thankful we could do this.

We are busy with the remodel worker this week. I will get back to you soon.

Chris,

I'm sorry but I fail to see how your understanding fits with any of the verses I have quoted.

Universal Atonement and Freewill relative to salvation are not taught in the Bible despite verses that when isolated may appear to do so.

When coming to conclusions regarding the Bible, all of the verses that relate must harmonize.

Unfortunately, failure to follow the Biblical principles of interpretation in virtually every church and denomination have contributed to teachings on critical doctrines, like the Nature of Salvation that are all over the map and ultimately place man and not God in control.

Page 1.

You've given some Scriptures here David0921, to which I will respond.

Romans 9:13-16. From Romans 9:1-23, the apostle is speaking about his kinsmen, the Jews; that God had selected Isaac through whom would come Jacob & all of Israel - as opposed to Esau (who was rejected), even though he was the firstborn. All this Paul rehearses before his readers to show that God's promises will be realized, according to His Word, that "In Isaac shall thy seed be called". God was not being partial to one & not the other, but in God's Knowledge & Plan, one was accepted to the rejection of the other.

Here then is God's selection process - not for salvation (since each person has to demonstrate faith & love to God regardless of which tribe or nation they belong to), but of election & receiving the Promises of God. And so Paul goes on in Romans 9:24-33, to show that those of Israel who have rejected the LORD, & not come by faith ( Romans 9:30-32), have been cut out of the olive tree, with the Gentiles being engrafted in (only if the Gentiles stand in faith, Romans 11:20). Why have I written all this? Only to show that the process of leading to salvation (which we're discussing now) is not revealed here, but of who are God's Elect - that the Gospel would now go to the Gentiles, the Jew having rejected it ( Acts 13:46-48).

Jeremiah 17:9. Fully agree as mentioned previously.

Joel 2:12-14. You might need to give your reason for mentioning this Scripture, as I'm unable to relate it to what we're discussing.

Ezekiel 36:24-28. I understand this passage is still in the future (probably during the Millennial rule of Christ), when Israel finally acknowledges their Messiah, receiving a new heart & new spirit. Btw, I do NOT subscribe to Replacement Theology, inasfar as Israel no longer being a part of prophetic fulfilment and the Church is now the new Israel.

To Page 2.

Chris,

I felt compelled to revisit your comments regarding Romans 9.

This passage and God's use of the term "elect" and "election" throughout the Bible has EVERYTHING to do with Salvation.

I'm sorry to say that the language you use here in describing your understanding reflects a gospel of Grace plus works and that God saves on the basis of OUR CHOICE and not SOLELY on the basis of His Grace and Mercy alone.

Please consider the man in Numbers 15 that picked up a few sticks on the sabbath which is a statement by God denouncing a gospel that includes any work whatsoever on our part.

Thanks David0921 for those additional comments.

Concerning 'election' & salvation, there is obviously a clear connection, but if Israel was God's Elect, then all Israel should have been saved (whether the election of God for selecting Israel as His people: Romans 9:11,12; or, said of Israel herself: Isaiah 45:4; or, even of the Church: Colossians 3:12). We know that when the Church is spoken of as God's Elect, then those comprising His Church must all be saved through His Son's Blood & Faith. But of Israel, they are God's Elect by position, yet still requiring Faith & Obedience to God's Word to be heirs of salvation through their coming Redeemer. If they disobey God, their election is of no use at all ( Romans 9:6.7), because even though "in Isaac shall thy seed be called" (election), yet of the elect, they must also "attain righteousness, which is of faith" ( Romans 9:30-33).

And so we conclude here, since your example of Numbers 15:32-26 being "a statement by God denouncing a gospel that includes any work whatsoever on our part", is too far removed from my understanding of this passage, indeed the whole Word itself. You see a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath that comes to us as a warning to not introduce works into the Gospel. I see simply a man who violated the Commandment and had to face God's Judgement as a result - nothing to do with our works, rather, of his and our Disobedience to God. Please, I know you are digging into the Scriptures to find the gold therein, which is commendable, but we all need to make sure that what we find & interpret as a precious find, is not just iron pyrite. Thank you for your time David - consider my input closed here. GBU.

Page 2. David0921.

Ephesians 2:1,8-10. As earlier mentioned, these verses show that we were dead in sin, but now made spiritually alive. And this has happed by God's Grace & God's Faith that are given to the sinner under conviction so that he might be saved. Grace & Faith must be present before re-birth - not after; if after re-birth, then there is no point in such needed Grace & Faith after salvation, for salvation is already received.

You may "fail to see how my understanding fits with any of the verses you have quoted", so I've shared what my understanding of those verses is. "Universal Atonement", or better, 'The Gospel to be brought to all people' is taught in the Bible ( John 3:16, Matthew 28:18-20), that all need to hear of this Good News of Salvation & express faith in Jesus' finished Work to be accepted of God. Or else, the Holy Spirit should have alerted Paul, Peter, and others as to specific individuals that should hear, receive the Gospel & be saved, to the exclusion of all others. And I simply don't find them doing any such thing or even teaching it. True, the Lord knows who will come to Him in repentance & faith, but all must have the opportunity to hear & respond. And those who seriously attend to the Gospel & affected by it, will surely engage the Spirit's ministry to lead that lost sinful soul to the point of repentance & calling upon the Lord for salvation. Romans 10:12-17.

Chris,

Again thank you for your responses. I'm going to get somewhat personal here so please forgive me for that.

I see in your comments a reluctance to allow the Bible to be its own interpreter resulting in an understanding which circumvents what God is teaching in these and many other verses regarding the condition of mankind, the nature of God's justice and judgment, the nature of Christ's atonement, and God's sovereign mercy and grace demonstrated in his election program.

And as a result, creating a gospel where mankind is in charge and not God ALONE.

I hope you will take GiGi's advice and prayerfully continue to examine your understanding, allowing the Bible to be its OWN INTERPRETER. As I and we all need to do regarding any belief that we hold, without introducing the bias of our own wisdom and the way we might like things to be.

I do appreciate your comments David0921 and I guess this would now take us back to our old discussion on biblical hermeneutics. Clearly, yours & mine are very different and even at this fundamental, yet essential matter of how we should read, understand & dissect the Bible so that it is meaningful & confirmed in our hearts, will be the one that can never bring us to agreement.

In my view, and taking your advice on board, I believe that I do allow "the Bible to be its own interpreter" as I compare Scripture with Scripture, the Covenants, the Work of the Cross, etc. But it seems that we are, maybe not even understanding, what some of the verses are actually stating, which then leads us on to our own understanding & belief. Even the Romans 9:13-16 example you gave, to prove your point, I believe by my little exegesis to you, doesn't actually prove anything. Or the Joel 2:12-14 passage: maybe some exegesis from you on these passages might reveal how you are understanding it in light of our discussion, simply because I can't see the connection.

And not only with this important subject of Salvation (i.e. whether we are regenerated before being saved or after), we will very likely disagree on other matters (e.g. are the prophecies concerning Israel's future - into the Great Tribulation, of wars, of Christ's intervention, of their part in His Millennial rule, etc., still to be taken literally or simply transposed to the Church? If they are to be transposed, then what do we do with the other prophecies? Should we reinterpret them as well to suit our preferences? Then, how literally are we supposed to read the Bible? All these strange questions surface, hence my biblical understanding is to accept what is given, yet understanding what the book/chapter/verses are actually referring to and their connection to other verses relevant to it). I only share this last paragraph as a further example - but not for discussion on this particular thread. Every blessing.

Yes Chris,

The hermeneutic, i.e. the principles by which we interpret the Bible, will indeed determine our understanding of the Bible, The Word of God, the Gospel.

This is why, if we hope to come to truth, it is so critical that our hermeneutic be defined and governed SOLELY and COMPLETELY by principles that God Himself declares in His Word, and NOT those that come from the mind and wisdom of man.

1 Corinthians 2 and particularly 1 Corinthians 2:13,14 says it clearly.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The Bible is NOT like any other book and we cannot approach the Bible like we would any book by a human author.

So the more that we allow our own ideas of how we are to interpret Scripture and are not guided SOLELY by the principles that God lays down in His Word, the further from truth we will be.

Thanks David0921 for bringing up 1 Corinthians chapter 2, for that is indeed an apt portion of Scripture that helps us understand the difference between the wisdom of men and the wisdom which comes from the Spirit of God.

As we have discussed in the past, & bears repeating here again, unless we can actually first understand what the Bible narrative is (i.e. our foundation of biblical knowledge), then we have little chance of progressing further. Paul wrote this letter to the Corinthian church in plain language, particularly relating that his last visit & ministry to them was not a demonstration of the use of complex verbiage or of oratory skills to teach & convince them, as was commonly the manner of his worldly counterparts, but was shared with them being undergirded & charged by the Spirit within him. His language may have sounded plain & his emotions at the time quite disturbed (from his experiences at Athens & the new believers left behind at Thessalonica ( Acts 17)), but Paul's speech to the Corinthians was entirely different to the worldly who spoke from their own wisdom & not the Spirit of God.

Therefore, I believe, as stated in comments long ago, that unless we first have an understanding of what is said in the Word (as those who are born of God), we have little hope of correctly 'connecting the dots', so to speak, & very likely would come up with all sorts of interpretations: person A saying this & person B saying that - both claiming to be "comparing spiritual things with spiritual" & never finding agreement. The road to correct understanding maybe long & arduous, but must be based first on what the Word of God plainly tells us and then as we progress in our reading/study, the Spirit will bring to mind how the Scriptures correctly fit together. This then is how I understand "comparing spiritual things with spiritual": it is from the Holy Spirit Who teaches from a Book that is to be read plainly but with a spiritual understanding and application by us.

Hey David0921

I have been following this discussion I would just ask this, I believe your understanding is everyone is predetermined to be saved or not. What kind of justice is that and why would there even be a judgment? 2 Cor. 5:10 God knows the end from the beginning, and we have been given the way to eternal life with Him and His Son Jesus Christ.

When all is over we read in Rev. 20:11-15, is the final judgment, if our final destination is predetermined and we do not have a choice to accept and believe or reject God's word and the gospel of Christ that God sent His Son to die for our sins and was resurrected from the dead and is setting on the right hand of God that gives us our only hope of salvation and eternal life, why and what for are we going to be judged if we had no obligation to believe and be obedient.

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. We must answer the call and believe to be saved, believing is on us, God's mercy and grace are what saves us. God wants all to be saved but not all will accept His gift that we do not deserve or cannot earn by anything we can do but believe.

God bless,

RLW

Hello Ronald,

I'm not going to reproduce what I've said already or provide more verses. But please consider this.

God's Law declares that the wages of sin is eternal DEATH. And God obligates Himself to uphold His Law. God cannot ignore His Law and just decide not to punish us for our sin.

So in order to have a people for Himself for eternity and to demonstrate to mankind and to principalities and powers in heavenly places the justice, the mercy, the patience, the long suffering, the love of God; God in Christ chose to pay the full penalty demanded by His Law for those dirty rotten sinners that He chose to save. Sinners that apart from God's working in their life and the MIRACLE of the New Birth in their life would continue in their rebellion against Him, because we want what we want and we love our sin.

God's elective program is God's business. Not our business. And God makes it very clear that His Elect have no more inclination to humble themselves and turn to Him with a broken and contrite heart than any unsaved sinner who continues in their rebellion.

And God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Jesus wept over Jerusalem.

The drug addict seeking His pleasure in every immoral way possible could be one of God's elect just as readily as the most upstanding citizen of this world. And God must perform the same MIRACLE of salvation in either if they are to be saved.

We should be humbling ourselves before the Word of God, not trying to redesign His Salvation program, and praising Him for His mercy that He would save any one of us at so great a cost to Himself.

I've said this very inadequately and very incompletely.

Hey David0921,

I will just say what Scripture tells us we must do. We are all sinners in need of God's mercy, or our sins will remain, not forgiven, blotted out, or paid for unless we believe, and come to repentance as we are commanded to do. That only comes from hearing the Gospel of Jesus, the word of God. As we see in Acts 2.

That's all I can say, God bless,

RLW

T Y Chris,

Romans 9:13-16

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is NOT OF HIM THE WILLETH, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Jeremiah 17:9 The HEART is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Joel 2:12-14

12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with ALL YOUR HEART, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: 13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil. 14 WHO KNOWETH if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?

Ezekiel 36:24-28

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A NEW HEART also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Eph 2:1,8-10

1 And you hath he quickened, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins;

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Chris,

In addition to your responses and questions for me, I also read what you commented to Bennymkje.

There are many differences that seem apparant in the Gospel that we each are proclaiming. We each seem to have a very different understanding of three fundamental doctrines:

1.The Nature of Mankind appart from Salvation.

2. The Nature of God's Justice and Judgment.

3. The Nature of Salvation.

At the heart of these differences, I suspect, is the way that we approach the Scriptures and perhaps even our view of the Bible itself. I know that we have had this discussion before but it never hurts to repeat.

I believe that God Himself is the author of the entire Bible as He used Holy men of old to record precisely every word and phrase and chapter in the entire Bible from the mind and mouth of God. The Bible, in its original languages, is in every aspect the Holy Word of God Himself.

I believe that the Bible is God's Law Book for Mankind and that the Gospel of God's Judgment and Salvation is found in some aspect in every chapter and verse of the entire Bible. And we must be ready to test any doctrine or practice that we hold against anything and everything that God declares in the entire Bible, from Genesis to Revelation.

I believe that we must approach and interpret the Bible using ONLY the principles that God declares in the Bible. Some of these are:

1. We must compare Scripture with Scripture apart from any concept or idea that may come out of man's mind.

2. All scripture is profitable for for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

3. Christ, the author of the entire Bible, spoke in parables and without a parable spoke He not. He did this both to reveal and to hide truth.

4. God has a time table for revealing truth from the Bible, particularly as we approach the end.

5. And most importantly, God Himself must open our heart and mind to give us understanding.

May I ask, What do believe the Bible says about the term BORN AGAIN?

Hi Chris, May I add Salvation is equipping you to be part of the Fellowship of God with Man. The Man is the Son in the Father Son relationship. The everlasting Covenant is presented in Ge.1 under seven heads so all the blessings are on who is after our image and after our likeness. Whosoever believes in it shall be accounted to him for righteousness. It did not begin with Abraham but from the beginning.

How does one believe what he has not heard? When God breathed into the nostrils of man this faculty has been added to him. He is a living soul. Faith comes by hearing etc.., Rom 10:17 So heart is already endowed if one wants to believe. Those who refuse to come to it are afraid of the light because their deeds are evil.

God has chosen us before the foundation of the world (Ep.1:3-5). "And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her." (Ps.87:5) So we have been counted and all judgment are given to the Son. So whosoever hears the word and believes like the malefactor on the cross are included. So individuals have responsibilty to make the calling and election right. God is not looking to fill in with quality and not quantity of 'the trees having 'seed in itself'. Jesus told' But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up."(Matt.15:13) Thus ample opportunities for salvation are given to man. God does not play favourites with anyone. Free will given to man may be exercised for salvation or damnation.

Thanks Bennymkje. To your comment, "How does one believe what he has not heard?, etc. One matter that is being addressed here with David0921, is that sinful, unregenerate man is unable to express belief or faith, unless he is first born again & then is able to understand & believe. My position is that even in his unregenerate state, man can, under the ministry of the Holy Spirit, be able to receive conviction, repent, and call upon the Lord for forgiveness. Only after such a Work by the Spirit, & in brokenness & humility, can this sinner by faith given from God, be saved, be assured of salvation, & receive a new heart.

You wrote, the "heart is already endowed if one wants to believe", which I understand as the life (the heart) which the LORD has given each one us, though now wracked with sin, is still capable of turning from faithlessness to faith if the desire is there. And I believe that this desire is in union with the Work of God's Spirit; for which reason, most will never come to faith because self is truly on the throne & none shall de-throne it for any reason.

I agree with you, Chris. One does not born again unless one is first convicted of his sinful life and puts it away. The Ethiopian eunuch would not have taken baptism of water as soon as possible because seeing the Jesus connection from the passage of Isaiah. Nothing is impossible with God. God has sent the word even before we were born and there is a time and place for man to find it, if he is willing. Publicans and harlots would find salvation sooner that self-opinionated fellows who thinks they know it already.

A correction:

Please read this line "God is not looking to fill in with quality and not quantity of 'the trees having 'seed in itself'."

as

God is not looking to fill in with quantity but quality of 'the trees having 'seed in itself'.

Thank you Chris for your Response.

No. You have not understood my third poaragraph correctly. And I quote again:

"God did not look down the corridors of time before He created the world and saw that some would respond to the gospel and some would not. What He saw is the NO ONE would respond. But despite that dismal fact, God in His Mercy chose to save some. God does not tell us how He made that choice. But He did make it crystal clear that it was not because He saw that some were more likely to respond than others or that there was anything inherent in any one of us deserving of salvation. By nature we are all in rebelion against God and will never come to Him."

God ofcourse knows all things. From eternity past to eternity future. What God knows regarding who will and who will not respond to the Gospel, or who will seek Him with their WHOLE HEART, or who will be obedient to His Law in a way that would be pleasing to Him, is summarized in Romans 3:10-18 and other similar passages. In otherwords NO ONE, let me say that again NO ONE apart from the God's sovereign mercy and action in their life will BELIEVE with saving faith which is a gift of God.

The Bible clearly teaches that ALL Mankind is DEAD in Trespasses and Sin. Eph 2:1 And it requires God to first "draw", and then "save" those whom He has chosen to salvation by giving then a New Heart, i.e. a New Resurrected Soul as we read in Ezeikiel 36:26. This is becomming Born Again. That action is entirely God's action. It is not dependent on any action or response on our part. Although it will GENERATE a significant action and response and change in our behavior and attitude toward the Law of God, the Bible. God does this through the HEARING of His Word, the Gospel, as God applies that Word to the Hearts of those whom He is saving.

God's elective program is God's business not our business. Read Romans 9 very carefully.

Why would we want to put our trust in "our action" or "our choice" for our Salvation?

Thank you Chris,

And I agree absolutely that the "sprinkling of clean water" in Exekiel 36:25 is indeed a reference to the Word of God, the Gospel.

I agree , we are obedient to God because we trust Him , we have faith in Him and in His wisdom and righteousness and love for us , therefore we try always to make the right choices and do only what we know that He would want us to do but , as we are all still human we will occasionally fail . This is where our Sinless Redeemer comes in , covering our sin with his innocent blood . God is perfect in all of His ways and His dealings with us , we must trust Him at all times and be obedient . May God bless you and all of us who are trying to do His will .

God gives us freewill to choose whether or not to follow Him. God will save his followers (sheep) not the wolves who do not believe or follow Him. 1 John 3:10. We aren't puppets and God is not a genie here to do everything for you.

1 John 2:23-26 some choose to go astray. This is a warning to remain in the truth, and be on guard against lawlessness. 2 Peter 3. God made it 100% up to each of us to choose who and what we want to follow. And many will choose unwisely. Matthew 7:13

Adam,

I would askHow do you understand these verses?

Gal 4:19-31

19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, 20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you. 21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Gal 2:16,27

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Rom 3:10-31.

Where is free will found in the Bible? Apart from God's salvation I see that I'm in bondage to sin and Satan.

Hello David, you seem familiar- did we already discuss this topic some months or years before?

If I remember right you don't believe in free will? If so, my challenge to that is then did you write this or someone else? Do you think God made you- or forced you to (beyond your will). If there's no such thing as choice, then how do you explain Paul saying he was wrestling with his fleshly temptation of sin? It's possible you just don't like the word freewill but might believe you are the one who chooses things, like if you are given a menu at a restaurant and order- is that truly you ordering a burger or someone else.

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15 KJV

"I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee." Ezra 7:13 KJV

"Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways." Proverbs 3:31 KJV

"Choose." The Bible does say we have the ability (freedom) to choose. How many verses can you provide that says we have no choice whatsoever? God bless.

Yes Adam, God commands us to "choose", to believe, to repent, to obey, to love, etc. The whole Bible is God's Law Book for mankind. But we have to read the verses you quote in the light of what God declares about the condition of mankind. And that is that all of mankind (Adam and Eve excepted before they sinned) WILL NOT and CANNOT "choose" to obey, to repent, to love, i.e. to keep the Law of God in a way that is pleasing to God. Read Romans 3:10-18 and other verses teaching this. And that we are Spiritually "Dead in Trespasses and sins". And that God must raise us from Spiritual Death to Spiritual Life. Eph 2:1.

Furthermore we know from the Bible that the penalty for even the slightest transgression of the Law of God is eternal Death. And in order for anyone to be saved, Christ, must have paid the full penalty required by the Law. And if that penalty has been fully paid, we no longer stand guilty before the Law of God and the Law cannot condem us. These are the Elect of God. We have no idea who these are. Only God knows. God's election program is God's business, not our business. But we know that God has obligated Himself to save everyone for whose sins He paid the full penalty.

But salvation does not end there. When God applies His salvation to one of His elect, He gives them a New Resurrected Soul, i.e. a New Heart in which, in itself, cannot sin. 1 John 3:9. And we become a New Creature in Christ 2 Corinthians 5:17. But we still have a body that has not yet been saved and that still lusts after sin. And though, once saved, we will have an earnest and ongoing desire to repent, to obey, to love God WITH OUR WHOLE HEART, we can, if we take our eyes off of Christ, fall into even grevious sin, as did David. But what was David's reaction when confronted with his sin? Read Psalm 51. So if we have become saved sin will become increasingly anathema to us. And we will long for the Day when God compleates our salvation by giving us our New Resurrected Spiritual Body.

Adam,

I never said that a saved individual does not sin.

1 John 3:7-9

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John3:9 is referring to being Born Again in our soul existence when God miraculously applies salvation to our life.

As is Ezekiel 36:24-27

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A NEW HEART also will I give you, and a NEW SPIRIT will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

But that new soul resides in a body that still lusts after sin. And we will never be sinless in our whole personality until we receive our resurrected spiritual body on the Last Day. 1 Corinthians 15

Romans 7:21-25

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

But thank you for responding.

Hi David, it sounds like you believe you're on some kind of autopilot then after becoming a Christian, so you don't believe you have freewill and maybe assume everything you do is perfect?

>Noticed that every single action is GOD's. action, not OUR action.

I think you're cherrypicking a verse like 1 John 3:9 and making a dogma over it while disregarding the context. If you look at the verses before it, it clearly says believers sin. It's just that believers' sins are forgiven, if you abide in Christ.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Even believers need to purify themselves. The book is talking to Christians, as the verse before indicates.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

God will take away (forgive) our sin if we abide in Jesus Christ. It doesn't say that those who don't believe or don't abide in Jesus are forgiven. It doesn't say Christians are physically forced to not sin, and have no freewill to sin. No where in the Bible does it say that. The metaphor is from God's perspective, just like Hebrews 8:12 doesn't mean God has a memory problem. And just like drinking the blood of Christ doesn't literally mean his blood and those who eat bread aren't literally eating his body. And it doesn't say that a person loses their freewill or ability to even conduct themselves and become marionettes.

A few verses later it offers this strong warning (still addressed to Christians)

v8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

So in the same chapter it says the same Christian can sin, just not to Jesus (if abiding), because of grace.