Revelation Chapter 21 Discussion Page 2

Hello David: I am not convince Mathias is the 12th. Think about casting lots after the death of Jesus Christ. Peter stood and started the conversation. Remember how Peter always say something not right with Jesus? And being rebuke all the time? Although Paul did persecuted a lot of Christians He is hand picked by Jesus. If we look at qualifications and requirements for being apostle, Paul still qualifies. Only 12 will be in that wall foundation. If you take the logic of casting lots to pick your important apostle, Mathias may be there from John the Baptist to death of Jesus Christ, but Jesus Christ picked Paul. I prayed about this and I read all strong evidences. Also, the Book of Acts seems written in how everything happens. Even if we look at casting lots in Jonas, there is indeed a practice to do that. But I'm this case, because Jesus did the selections for the 11, I would not think Jesus will leave the decision lead by Peter, a man who deny Jesus 3X and Jesus told him "get thee behind me Satan. It does not fit the recognition. Sorry. We can agree to disagree on this one my friend. Agape.

Ronnette Matthias was indeed the twelth apostle which makes the apostle Paul number 13 handpicked and called out in due

time by God through Jesus christ. God knew the heart of Paul that he loved God but paul after being born again was 3years

in a desert place away from man for God to teach Him the mystery of the body of Christ then he went to the church in jerusalem

to talk to the leaders their, thats in Galatians 1. When they saw the witness Pauls walk and talk they sent him to the gentiles

to preach the gospel of grace which is what Jesus Christ taught in practice to the Judeans.

Who is the 12th Apostle? Paul is what the Bible indicated. In whose authority? Jesus Christ.

"And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." Revelation 21:14 KJV

"And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both (1) Peter, and (2) James, and (3) John, and (4) Andrew, (5) Philip, and (6) Thomas, (7) Bartholomew, and (8) Matthew, (9) James the son of Alphaeus, and (10) Simon Zelotes, and (11) Judas the brother of James." Acts 1:13 KJV

The reason I ask this very important question is to prove what truly the Bible said not what men or any religious sect says so. It is also important who is speaking and who has the ultimate authority in the Bible-Jesus Christ- John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Please understand the order of the Book of Acts.

Strong Facts:

"But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:" Acts 9:15 KJV

(12) "Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)" Galatians 1:1 KJV

"Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity." 1 Timothy 2:7 KJV

"Let his days be few; and let another take his office." Psalms 109:8 KJV

Romans 11:13

For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

In my own opinion, I found that all other evidence verses are very weak indeed to call Mathias as the chosen apostle.

Weak Facts:

"And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen," Acts 1:24 KJV

"And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles." Acts 1:26 KJV

You have got a lot to learn. Before the Holy Spirit can teach you you must be born again.

2 Timothy 2:15 told you to rightly divide the word of truth, that is your problem.

Your divisions are wrong. See you at the judgment.

Luke,

You not only strongly disagree with me, you strongly disagree with Jesus Christ, and everything else written in the Bible that doesn't agree with your extreme OSAS point of view.

Revelation 20:12

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

I guess you also disagree with the above scripture - stating when the "Book of Life" is opened - the dead will be judged according to their works!

Jesus tells us point blank: Revelation 22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

So, you are simply ignoring all of the scripture that I listed above, and the entire gospel of Jesus Christ, and you state you are going to heaven anyway.

Jesus, will be our Judge, we can't just ignore all of the scripture!

God Bless.

Christ followers can and should be confident in their future salvation when they are following Christ, but satan absolutely loves OSAS, because he deceives people into assuming they don't need to take any action to follow Christ. He even convinces people that doing good is bad and bad is good- satan's signature of opposites.

Jesus gave plenty of warnings about this exact topic through parables and verses like this: Matthew 7:21. People who assume otherwise have to ignore most of the new testament's warnings and conditional statements: If... then... Rom 10:9, John 15:10. Even satan and demons believe in God and Jesus. Jesus said most people will go to hell and gave us Christians plenty of warnings. Jesus said to fear God the father. Matthew 10:28

Most of Paul's writings were to Christians in churches he was concerned about as they were going astray. He didn't tell them: just do whatever, and don't worry about obeying Jesus, because it doesn't matter. No, quite the opposite. Satan loves people not trying though. Paul said to run the race. Some Christians interpret this as "don't run any race, because it doesn't matter."

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that people who aren't following Christ have assurance of salvation. And nowhere in the Bible does it say we're saved now on earth right after saying a prayer and before Jesus comes and before we even face judgment. This seems to be the epitome of man-made doctrine not from the Bible. I welcome anyone to share any scripture that says this, because I hear it a lot, but never seen anything in the Bible saying that.

Happy to have a respectful dialog with any other perspective, but the Bible is clear what it says. Obeying Jesus is good and disobeying is bad. Those who disobey may not be Christ followers and don't have assurance of salvation. John 14:15. Also anyone can commit blasphemy of the holy spirit, which clearly says is unforgiveable, which alone debunks OSAS theory.

I strongly disagree with you. If one is saved, one is born again. If one is born again his name is written in the book of life.

The new testament doesn't begin until Jesus dies on the cross. Jesus came for the Jews, not the gentiles, for the most part in Matthew, Mark Luke, and John, ( now John is different when he writes he has the gospels and Paul's epistles before him. What you are quoting was written to a temple attending, sabbath observing, pork abstaining, bearded Jew under the law. I'm not a Jew, are you?

If you want the doctrine for this age, read, Romans- Philemon.

Religion is what a man does to justify himself before God, salvation is what God gives a man who knows he can't justify himself.

You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.

I don't want to argue, good luck working your way to heaven. I don't work to get saved, I don't work to stay saved, I work because I am saved.

My destination is fixed. I'm trusting nothing but the blood of Christ to get me to heaven.

Luke,

I strongly disagree with you saying that Paul is telling the saved believers that they are going to heaven "no matter what". Paul is not saying this.

In the verse that you listed: Philippians 4:3 "And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life."

If it is as you say Paul and his fellow laborer's are destined for heaven no matter what - why are they laboring so hard? I'll tell you why they are laboring, they are struggling with everyday life, to live as sin free as possible and follow in Christs footsteps to assure that they actually do achieve the prize - Heaven!

If it is as you are relating here that all Christian's that believe that their name is in the book of life are going to heaven - no matter what - this is false doctrine, and for anyone to believe this, they we would have to ignore the entire gospel of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 22:14

"For many are called, but few are chosen."

Luke 13:24

"Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able."

Matthew 7:14

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Matthew 5:20

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

There are no free tickets to heaven, and it's never too late to change, read Jesus Christs Gospel found in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and Believe!

Good Bless.

Lambs book of Life, when one gets saved, they are now born again. One of the many, many, many, things that happens is that your name gets written in the book of life.

Paul is telling the saved believers, in Philippians 4:3, fellow laborers whose names are written in the book of life. Your destined to Heaven no matter what. Glory to God, amen.

Sharon:

Has Christ CAUSED you to believe on him.

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is GIVEN, on the behalf of Christ, not only to BELIEVE ON HIM, but to suffer for his sake.

Christ is the book, the word of God.

Colossians 1:27 ....this mystery ....Christ in you .....

John 14:6 .....I AM LIFE .....

Colossians 2:13 For it is God (his life) that worketh IN YOU (his body) both TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure.

You are IN THE BOOK OF LIFE.

God Bless YOU!

No scholar here, but a Child of God. I believe God/Jesus's word/prophecy is your answer; Matt 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. This is why were told to be ready. If we knew, can you imagine how that would be manipulated. Plus, it would circumvent faith. I guess the best example as a parent myself, I didn't tell my teenagers exactly how long I'd be gone b/c I didn't want them to calculate that for mischief. But by the same means as parents, we always say, "love you, be back soon, be good."

So, at this point when no man knows and we're warned not to figure it out, I choose to trust. I feel we're "close" (of course, we're always one day closer) more so b/c of technology, the hate for God/Christianity, and unparalleled evil. The world's variables have now become constants for the evil powers that be, that man now can truly play God more than ever and run the WORLD. There are no more frontiers --only world domination. [No. Absolutely not, God will not allow man to MARS or any other planet. I'm already second guessing our moon landing. Soooooo many lies.]

I know our Father will give the OK to pull His church out b/f all hell breaks loose on earth ( Rev 4) --we will not be under world/satan rule b/c we already gave our life the Christ. I truly believe God is using this time wake us and sift us --who is true. If you can't handle today --you won't be with us tomorrow.

At this point, I just want to finish the race and hopefully hear, "Well done my good and faithful daughter." In Christ,

I would like to know more about the "Lambs Book of Life." Also Resurrection pertaining to those who are in the Book versus Judgement. Are we truly living in the last days of Nebuchadnezzar in the toes, & Biblical Scholar's, how long is it until JESUS' Return; what is a definite shoe in sign of HIS coming. Thank You & GOD BLESS Sharon*

Hello Jerry, as some have said, the Tabernacle was the Holy of Holies in the center of the tent of meeting in the Old Testament. It was made in the wilderness during the Exodus by God's command and instructions. When completed, God chose to manifest Himself in this upon the Ark of the Covenant. When the temples were built in Jerusalem, again the Tabernacle was the Holy of Holies with the Ark of the Covenant and again, God's Presence was manifested upon the Ark. This does not mean that God was only there when His Presence was seen. He is everywhere present and fills the universe with Himself (being Spirit) and He at times will manifest Himself in one place without reducing His filling of the universe. In a locational manifestation He is 100% present there and at the same time 100% filling the universe. Kind of a mind blowing idea, but He is more amazing than we could ever imagine or comprehend. Praise be to God!

It was where God resides,..

According to scripture at the end of Revelation (chapter 21 and 22); the heavenly Jerusalem descends to earth; hence it becomes united as one and the same in essence. We have the earlier verses such as 1 Cor. 15:51 about the rapture and Resurrection occurring first; as an escape from the wrath which shall come in the Tribulation; otherwise referred to as "Jacob's Trouble". After this; we have the Millennium period when the heavenly city is suspended above earth (no doubt interacting with earth and moon's gravity). The very real physical changes of mountains being abased; valleys being exalted ( Isaiah 40:4 stated in reverse order) indicates the topographical changes due to this gravitational force; and no doubt Isaiah 66 indicates how the opening to hell will be brought forth to be observed by all which will exist in a peripheral area around the city where at that time there will be the greatest height on earth in heavenly Jerusalem once Christ lands on the Mount of Olives. Eventually; after the Millennium period there is "no more sea" according to Revelation 21:1. The elements which are said to burn up in 2 Peter 3:10-12 show the day of the Lord at it's finale. (It would seem since other verses in Peter state 1000 years are as a day that the Day of the Lord is the period between the Tribulation and the Great White Throne Judgment in its entirety).

In any event; we need to establish the right standing with God in order to enter the Kingdom; namely true faith in Christ now and the resulting indwelling of the Holy Spirit which is the sealing of the down payment as Ephesians and other verses indicate. We have in a sense already died to this world and have gone from death to life if Born Again; because the process of sanctification leads to glorification as a "done deal" ( Romans 8:28-30). There still will probably be a planet where the Heavenly City comes from that may be the whole heaven as it were. We will rule and reign with Christ on earth as well.

Hey Jerry,

It means Gods dwelling place, He will Himself, not just His glory in a tent or a building but dwell with us and we will see His face. Revelation 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. God and Jesus will be the temple, Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

God bless,

RLW

Hey Jerry Donald Stoller,

I am sure many may disagree, but I have not found any scripture that says outright we will be taken, or we will go to heaven. Many uses 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as the church meets Jesus in the air and are taken to heaven, but this verse does not say where we go after we meet Jesus in the air.

Psalms 115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

Revelation 21:1-3 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

The saved eternal life will be as from the beginning, on earth, but it will be made new.

God bless,

RLW

Exodus

Chapter 26, it was like the temple but made of a tent

On Earth now whether you end up in Jerusalem or not depends, you may be outside the gates. All these brain-e-acts who know everything about revelations neglect the most important parts. Paul spoke of earning crown and jewels that go on them and Jesus spoke of being found with just the one talent we were given because we never served God or preached the gospel, buried or heads in the sand. We are servants of O Mighty God of our Lord Jesus Christ and we act like we serve the world. You really need to just read it over and over until you can hear it. Yes, God and Jesus will rein on earth in God's Temple in Jerusalem in God's sanctuary the holy of holies and there will be no sun for they shall be our light. The tree of life who leaves will be to heal the nations. I tell you there is more to it then just believing it's after we believe will be judge by. Read it like your life depends on it because it does.

We can overcome all hardships in our life with faith! When we are weak he is strong! The Joy of the Lord is our strength! Pray without ceasing, Love all even your enemies and Love and have a fear only for the Lord. No weapons formed against us shall prosper! Believe on the Lord Yehsua Hamashiach (Jesus) and be saved!

Is Heaven our final home, or is the New Jerusalem our final home?

In verse 3 it mentions (The Tabernacle of God).What is the Tabernacle of God?

Edwin No reason for ambassadors because everything will be perfect!

Will we be asigned to one place in heaven or will we be as ambassadors sent out to other destinations

Louie,

Good question. You are born again when the you respond to the faith that the Holy Spirit plants in you when you hear the gospel message. You receive the gospel into your being as Truth, and Holy Spirit will work in you the repentance from sin. Ideally, one would be baptized shortly after receiving the gospel in the name of the Father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit. This is the teaching of the New Testament church, but this was not without exceptions. Paul was born again when he encountered Christ on the road to Damascus. He received the Holy Spirit when Ananias laid hands on him and prayed for Him, and Ananias baptized Paul in water subsequently. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is our guarantee that we have been saved in and through Jesus Christ. Baptism in water is our public confession that we have received salvation in Jesus.

Some people have a definitive conversion experience or dramatic. Others like me, not so. I was baptized as an infant and raised by believing parents, so I have always believed in Jesus as far back as I can remember. As I grew older, I also grew in faith and understanding of God and his salvic work in me. When I was in college, I chose to be baptized again because I understood it as a profession of faith already resident in me. But if I hadn't been rebaptized, I believe that my first baptism was within God's will as well. There is nothing in Scripture that says we can only be baptized once.

So, I am wondering, have you been saved? Do you believe that Jesus has saved you from sin, death, hell, and the evil one? Do you know that you have the Holy Spirit in you? You do if you are a believer. He lives in you when you first believe. In fact the Holy Spirit does in you all that is needed to be saved. He regenerates you. He brings you the gospel for you to hear or read. He provides grace to save you. This grace implants faith in you so you can believe. He comes into you to dwell when you believe. He forgives all of your sins.

Precious friend, Louie, we are "born from the Spirit Above" upon "hearing The Word Of Truth, The Gospel Of GRACE, and "believing It With All of our heart!" Immediately!!

God's 'Simple' Will: Link

Brother Louie,

Based on scripture spoken by Jesus, it happens when you accept and believe that Jesus is your Savior, receive water baptism, and then receive God's Holy Spirit. = Born Again. Please see scripture below:

John 3:16

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Hope this helps you.

God Bless.

Hi louie If you confess with your heart innermost part of your being it is not mental accent its not like going to get a glass of water its more like digging the well to get to the water needed and you can't live anymore if you don't do this and really believe then you confess Romans 10:9+10 and then as you reach out the father works within and trust me you will know because he will make it known to you.

Brother Louie,

No. We're free to go to Church any day of the week that suits us.

The Sabbath Day has always been observed on Saturday. The Sabbath Day is a Day of rest. God created the Sabbath Day at the creation of the world, God rested on the 7th day.

Mark 2:27

"And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:"

In creating the 4th Commandment, God gave us a day to rest our body and mind, and to also reflect on God, to give thanks to Him, and also to allow us to do good things on this day, as Jesus demonstrated by healing and helping those in need on the Sabbath Day!

I look at Sabbath/Saturday as a gift from God, and use it to rest, pray, help others when I can, and just rejuvenate my body and mind! I've found in the past that if I don't make it a habit to observe Saturday, then I just end up doing all of the same worldly things that I do during the regular work week, hence I fall into the same worldly Rat Race mindset.

God Bless.

Hello Louie, A born again brother or sister will know peace and rest. The desire to share this peace and rest with others will be abundant. You will know the presence of this peace by the Holy Ghost dwelling within you, leading you from the soul outwards in your walk of life. You will have love for God in his mercy for providing His Lamb. This same love will follow to all men. As God worked a work in you ne works a work in others. Your presence with the gift of God which is the Holy Ghost will witness to others that you have peace with God and man.

Also, this born again nature is lifetime.

:)