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Thanks and that's a great question about the Tribulation.
From a dispensational view, the Great Tribulation ( Mt 24:21) and the Day of God's Wrath ( 1 Th 5:9) are distinct in emphasis yet coordinated within Daniel's 70th week ( Dan 9:27). The Day of the Lord is the overarching heavenly program of judgment; the Great Tribulation is the intense, earth-side experience-especially the last 3 years-when the beast persecutes Israel and the nations ( Mt 24:15,21; Rev 12-13; Jer 30:7).
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 marks the transition: the Restrainer is "taken out of the way," the man of sin is revealed, and the Day of the Lord proceeds. Most see the Restrainer as the Spirit's restraining work through the Church; at the catching away that restraint is lifted ( 1 Th 4:16-18; 2 Th 2:6-7). This does not make evil sovereign; it means God judicially permits lawlessness to ripen so He may judge it openly.
Revelation shows judgment initiating from heaven as the Lamb breaks the seals ( Rev 4-6). Seals, trumpets, and bowls are decrees from the throne, answering the martyrs' cry and culminating in the King's appearing ( Rev 6:9-11; 19). Thus the Day of Wrath is truly a continuum: it begins with restraint lifted, escalates to direct plagues, and finally crests in the cosmic dissolution Peter describes ( 2 Pet 3:7-12).
Romans 1 helps explain the "early phase" you sense: God's wrath is already "revealed from heaven" when He gives society over to its chosen rebellion ( Rom 1:18,24,26,28). Applied eschatologically, the removal of restraint is itself an act of wrath-God handing the world to the consequences of rejecting truth ( 2 Th 2:10-12).
Therefore, while Great Tribulation and Day of Wrath can be distinguished (earthly persecution vs. heavenly initiative), they belong to one coherent action of God from heaven that begins with removing the Restrainer and runs through world-ending judgment, after which the promised kingdom is installed ( Rev 20; Acts 3:19-21).
Grace and Peace
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. Does this verse mean a woman should not, in any case, have authority over the man?
Revelation 21 gets away from me in the first two verses!
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, PREPARED AS A BRIDE adorned for her husband.
We have a new heaven and a new earth!
Ww have the holy city, new Jerusalem, prepared aa a bride for her husband!
This great holy city is the Lambs wife having the glory of God!
Revelation 21:9-11.
I don't believe there's a way to visualize that!
Everything else in this chapter is within this incomprehensible city!
Blessings
While I do think the Scriptures say that the New Jerusalem on the newly remade earth with the Lord in us and among us is the where believers will dwell with our Lord, I do not think Scriptures say anywhere that we will be raptured before His second coming.
I think the Scriptures plainly teach that Jesus comes back once only and this is to bring destruction upon the wicked, resurrection of those who have died, the changing of living believers into glorified bodies as those resurrected in the Lord, judgment of the wicked to the lake of fire, and renewal of all creation into its original goodness only greatly enhanced.
While the Scriptures speak of Jesus reigning, I believe that this is a forever reign with all the saints without sin and corruption.
We can be assured that the Holy Spirit will always lead us into holy actions, thoughts, and motives. He will not promote divisions in the body of Christ, nor cacophony within worship situations, nor outbursts of those who think they have a "word from the Lord" that must interrupt a worship service or the preaching of a pastor or leader.
We are to be humble, reverent, holy, and focused on giving God glory when we gather together.
This is how the Holy Spirit works in us and within a congregation gathered.
This does not mean we cannot clap, sing with joy, lift up praise to God, or other ways that express gratitude to God and joy in Him.
"And the evening and the morning were the fourth day." The Covenant in seven days is the key to the entire God document and it is Holy because the word is holy. "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."( Jn 17.17). What do seven days indicate? The Word is the Law of the kingdom of light and the two great lights are 'great' to distinguish them from the natural lights dealt in v.14. The lesser light shall rule the night so the outer darkness is not left to do what it pleases as we see the events unfolding in Gaza. God shall judge them. So between season and time there is a period which in the vision of Daniel is called,"they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time" The four beasts are world empires in which the number four establishes the Word which was God. The word that has gone forth shall never return to him void. The Word which was God says Amen to him. Here we have the Law setting four as a command number for the Word. Jesus is the word is set in terms of the Son so this compound number 4x3 signifies the gospel preached to the people. Jesus did not pick up the passage at the synagogue but was given to him,"And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written," (Lk.4.17) By the same token the man clothed in linen tells Ezekiel and there is no mistaking,it is a warning to Israel, " and set thine heart upon all that I shall shew thee; for to the intent that I might shew them unto thee art thou brought hither: declare all that thou seest to the house of Israel." (Ezek.40.4) Beast is tagged with number 42 and is made up of 6x7. The beast in 13.1 goes to war with the holy city which is not literal Jerusalem but against the will of God. "t was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The LORD is there." Compare 6x6x6x1000 and 12x12x1000
"Yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time."
This is a night vision meaning the divine Will concerning nations re set in terms of the acceptable year of the Lord. The four nations are set aside for a season and time. In the parlance of the Spirit season refers the kingdom of light. v.22 is his commentary on the vision of the fiery throne,"Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom." It is an everlasting dominion given to the Son of man. So judgment of the seven beasts is referred in v.10 by the phrase"the judgment was set, and the books were opened."
The Acceptable year of the Lord ends with the day of Regeneration and in Mt.19.28 twelve thrones are set for the 12 apostles of the Lamb so one can be sure Judas is not included. It is not historically settled but by the Lamb. He is the Word which was with God and not the word become flesh. The king of glory is Jesus Christ who settles the issue. "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."(Matt.25.40)
Coming back to the key verse, the season and a time supplies us two entities; one refers to the saints of the most high and in the new heaven and in the new earth they descend with the Lamb to the mid-air where the tabernacle of God is set.(Rev.21.1-3) Second entity is time. This refers to the time of the gentiles in which the heathen are those destined for the outer darkness. "But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."(Rev.11.2) The temple of God is in midair and the court and it is which the beast enters (Rev.13.1-5) In the vision of Ezekiel the line of flax, 'and in the man's hand a measuring reed of six cubits long' refers to the beast 6-6-6 The months 7x6 refers to the beast.
Very nicely laid out.
Blessings.
the church is his [bride]. married through all eternity. where the lord is, his bride goes where he goes. never, never again separated. the church [bride] will live with him through all the millennium and all eternity.
hope this helps you,
Dear all of you who ponder the Word. I'm going straight to the point.
Are we alive or are we dead Christians? What does the scripture say. Now, I've just mentioned a few scriptures. Are we alive or are we dead? We are dead to sin, right? Rom 6:11-13 So what does alive mean in that context? Are we alive or are we dead? 2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. So in plain text it must be that in sin there is death. And in the Spirit there is life. So what are we dead or alive? In Ezekiel 37 it says about the dead bones. Which God made alive. Quite interesting, as we ask ourselves today whether we are alive or dead. When we know that the Spirit that lives in us is alive forever. Of course we will be too. So our living spirits today will never die. So are we alive or are we dead? We live for all time. So what happens then, when Jesus comes back. We are not dead! We live no matter if we have been dead in the body we carried for 100/1000 years, we are still alive with Him when He comes. In the Spirit.
What that means, I won't say more, but each reader must judge for themselves. What happens then?
Love u all
Love u
In the beginning was the Word, By the same token in the fulness time is what the Father has set in his dvine Will. "Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months./And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit." What does his prayer prove? Elias just like one of us praysvand God answers, This three years and six months refers to gis Son. His assertion that My Father and I are one was never in question nor in doubt. This is how the Covenant has been worded and not an iota or jot of it shall be changed. Mind tou we are talking about th natural world and God set the light for seasons years and days. God framed the worlds by the word and whosoever has faith shall be entangled with the Fatherin his Son. The Holy Spirit organizes the narrative on reconstituted time so the sign Three and a half years refer to the Word which was Law.
"And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the LORD God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word."(1 Kngs 17.1;2 Kngs 2.24) It is according to my word which is another indication of entanglement. So when Elisha curses the 42 sons of Belial, "And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."(cursed them in the name of the Lord' sets it on behalf of the Father, The Word is not merely sound or the sign but Jesus Christ the embodiment of the Law of the Spirit. 42 is a number refering to the earthly ministry and is set in months. It has relevance to this Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. "And power was given unto him (the beast) to continue forty and two months."(Rev.13.5).
Jesus declared to the horror of the Pharisees,'I and my Father are one." What is God, the Father of lights and his Son the true Light,'which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.'( Jn 1.9) This relationship can be explained. Here is a bit of Science and if anyone disagrees, he may look elsewhere.
There's just something about the quantum world that doesn't seem to make sense in ours. Bouts of migraine in most sufferers seem to be triggered by solar flares. The light takes some eight minutes to reach us but it triggers migraine earlier than that. Why?
The story begins way back in 1935, Einstein and associate-physicists found something strange. They entangled two particles- let's call them Alice and Bob - so that their physical properties were linked even across wide distances, and anything you did to one particle would impact the other. Intuitively, you'd think that if you had access to Alice, you'd know way more about her than you would about Bob, who's a distance away. This is also what you'd expect given Einstein's proof called EPR paradox: By studying Alice, you actually learn much more about Bob than you do about Alice. It is this Jesus Christ the visible image of God signifies in terms of light. So time required for a solar flare to reach a migraine sufferer is unnecessary. By the same token we are entangled with God in his Son. Let us take Enoch's case, "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."(Gen.5.24)
The Covenant referring to the natural says,'and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years." So how we walk has its counter sign in heaven. Our faith is acceptable before God, the Father,"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."( 1 Jn 1.7). From the analogy of RBob and Alice by knowing Jesus we know more about his Father who as light has no variableness.
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:" Here we have the Covenant in which the purpose of these lights are fixed. Seasons days and years are stated therein. Notice that here is no mention of weeks. Weeks are set by man for his convenience.
The segnificance of the day arises from the decree of the Father. "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."(Ps.2.7) So the Spirit supplies us seven days to indicate each of this day runs seriailly without pause, 'continually to use the term'. Here is a verse:"And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."(v.5)
God divided the light from the darkness and this shall run on as a steady beat till the point of time there shall be no more night. This Covenant is set and it is God who determines when. This point refers to the year. So acceptable year of the Lord in the Isaiah quote refers to the will of the Father. These seven days according the decree fall under the authority of the Son.
It was within the Will of the Father to send his only begotten Son to the world. ( Jn 3.16) The Spirit serts time as part of the Covenant to incorporate the earthly ministry of the Son of man.
This explains the phrase Time, times and half a time'.(Rev.12.14) In accordance with the spiritual truth Col.1.9 Jewish nation shall be judged in terms of Jesus whose ministry runs Three and half years or 42 months. In the Revelation ch.12 we have two references" Notice the number of days in v.14? "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."
Thank you.
To aim for what you are seeking to achieve, I doubt can ever be achieved in a life-time; simply because the diversity of religions and their beliefs and practises are too far-reaching. You can get a general outline of their beliefs, as contrasted to what the Bible gives us, or even go deeper in study, but after all is done, one is still left in a state of ignorance, knowing that there is much more to be learned. As well, all our study will only give an academic knowledge, since most religions are deeply rooted into the history, culture, and language of the people, which means that one has to brought up within that culture or residing within it, engaging with the people. Even with Islam that I'm more familiar with, there are so many sects within it, and if you add folk Islam as well, makes for a formidable set of beliefs and practises, that one can only gain a limited amount of knowledge.
I fear that you may become so entrenched in this pursuit, that other areas of life may suffer, especially your higher studies which would be more profitable in settling into a career, while you seek the Lord's guidance for what lies ahead of you. If perhaps you are led to meet with those of another religion in the course of your studies & future involvements, then yes, it would be very worthwhile to learn more from them about their beliefs, their needs, their hopes, etc. And from these friendships, opportunities will arise to share Christ your Hope. GBU.
As the Apostle John continues to receive revelations & visions of "things which shall be hereafter" ( Revelation 1:19), the vision of the New Jerusalem was given to him in this chapter. And I should state, since there is a lot of imagery in the Book of the Revelation and often things listed are not in sequence, different views are generated; so what I understand could be at variance with another's view and I too must admit that my understanding is not necessarily accurate, but what I have for now.
We read in the first verse, that the sky and earth as we know it will be no more at some time ahead determined by God. This is probably because God is cleansing it of the stain of sin that existed and now starting afresh with a new earth. And a new city, the holy Jerusalem is brought forth from God onto this new Earth. Jerusalem, as you know, is not only the capital of Israel, but God's appointed city ( Psalm 48:1,2,8; Joel 3:16,17), so God's focus in bringing forth this "New Jerusalem" is where He will dwell with those who belong to Him (v3); all who have rejected God, living in sin have faced eternal damnation (v8).
And so the vision of this new city was given to John (vv9-21) in all its beauty and splendor. The verses also tell us that there was no temple (or, even the need of a building for worship), for where God Himself & His Son are, we will worship them there (vv22,23). There will be no need for natural or artificial light as the Triune God is the Light flooding the city (v23). All this gives a reflection of Heaven now. However, what is perplexing, is the mention of both the saved nations (saved people) and their kings (leaders) who will bring praise and worship to God in the city (vv24-26). I can't tell how this actually figures in such an environment; i.e. from where do these folk come outside the city's walls? Hope this helps a little.
Yet, the question that I deal with is: if the Great Tribulation ( Matthew 24:21) and the Day of God's Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 1:18) are different events, but pertaining to Daniel's 70th week, is it possible that they are actually part of the same action of God in Heaven? When I read 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, I sense that this period of time starts with the removal of the Restrainer and the revelation of the 'man of sin'. Even though we don't see that great outpouring of God's Wrath upon the world ( 2 Peter 3:7-12, and others) leading to the destruction of the world and evil men, I feel that God's Wrath in its early stages of revelation when He removes His Restrainer that has thus far held the world to some degree of normalcy and decency, though now rapidly degenerating.
I take the example of a dam, holding back a large volume of water from passing to the other side. When water is to be released, the release valves are opened incrementally letting out a little water at a time, or else there would be catastrophic consequences to the inhabitants on the other side. Likewise, when God's 'valves' begin to open (i.e. His Wrath begins as He removes His Restrainer & all that brings), the world might know that their time is short & the little suffering that life threw at them, will be insurmountably horrendous. GBU.
I recall reading in Hebrews 11:14-16 tells us that the OT saints, including Abraham, of whom the promises were made, were desiring a better country than an earthly one, specifically one that is heavenly, and in vs.39-40 we read that these did not receive the promises they hoped to receive because God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
This clearly says that those OT saints receive what we receive from God as our hope and fulfillment of what He has promised. We receive the same thing that is better than an earthly eternity.
In Heb. 11:10, we are told that Abraham was looking for a heavenly city, the New Jerusalem made by the hand of God, not by human hands.
Heb. 12:22-24 in speaking to Hebrew believers says that they have come to the heavenly Jerusalem, inhabited with angels and the church of the firstborn, to God, to spirits made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of the New Covenant,
So, as I read these chapters, I understand that believing Hebrews receive the same destiny as believing Gentiles.
I do not see verses that speak of unbelieving Hebrews receiving an earthly destiny.
Please cite Scriptures that support the dispensational viewpoint you presented here.
Another question, can you give me Scripture support for your statement that Paul or Jesus said that His coming to rapture the church is imminent and without signs?
From what I have read in Scripture is that Jesus' second advent is visible, preceded by signs, and singular. I do not read anywhere that Jesus comes for the church to take it from earth before the tribulation and the revealing of the man of sin spoken of in 2 Thess. 2.
If I read the Scriptures that dispensationalist often cite as texts that teach this rapture and I take a literal and "plain sense" and according to what is actually stated, I see these texts as definitely speaking of Jesus second coming at the end of the age.
Scriptures cited often are 1 Thess. 4 and 1 Cor. 15 but both of these text show this gathering of God's people is followed by the day of the Lord ( 1Thess. 4 into ch. 5) and the "end" ( 1 Cor. 15).
I hope you can bring out how these texts teach what you are claiming. I truly am interested in understanding how you and other dispensationalist interpret these as teaching a pre-trib rapture separate from Jesus' second coming.
One question for you--
If the church is in heaven with Jesus during the millennium how is it that Jesus is on earth during the millennium reigning with Israel?
I ask this because Jesus forever retains His human body and nature united with His divine nature. A human body can only be in one place at one time, so how can Jesus be present in heaven in His human body and on earth reigning in His human body simultaneously during the millennium?
I suggest that you diligently read and study the Bible because in this book you will find the words and beliefs that will lead you to possess eternal life in Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.
In another post you said that you wish to learn different theologies. If you wish to compare theological positions within
Christianity, then the more Scripture you know before comparing will help you more than you now know as to what is sound doctrine and what does not align with what God has revealed in Scripture and in Jesus Christ.
If you mean you are desiring to compare theologies of different religions, I would advise against doing so and stick with Christian doctrine only until you have read the Bible through a few times and sought answers to whatever questions you develop from such reading. I advise you seek answers from your pastor or someone you know who has been a Christian a long time and demonstrates that he is very familiar with the Bible and also the overall schematic of God's revelation to us. If you do not have such a Christian in your sphere right now, this is a good site to ask questions.
I don't recommend studying other religions because they are all false and will lead you into idolatry unless you are a strong and seasoned Christian believer with a thorough grasp of the essential doctrines of the Christian faith and even more so, that you have a deep, abiding, and committed relationship with Jesus Christ on a daily if not moment by moment basis.
Someone,
You are created by God to be brought to salvation from sin in and through Jesus Christ. This is the best position you can have before God. The salvation Jesus brings to those who believe in Him is what every person ever created needs most of all because we are sinners who do not obey or love God before we are converted to Christ Jesus, though God desires us to love and obey Him from a place of faith and reliance on Him.
So, I hope this helps you to begin your studies. Bible first.
Thank you for your reply. I have saved your posts; they don't stay very long these days. Looks like our understandings are quite different, but I will study the things you have presented and reply in a day or two. I do thank you for your very clear perspective and respectful manner of discussion, that is what I love about this site.
God bless,
RLW