But as Paul writes in 1 Thessalonians 1:10 ("His Son from heaven, which delivered us from the wrath TO COME") and 1 Thessalonians 5:9 ("For God hath NOT APPOINTED us to wrath (the Wrath of verse 3), but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ"). From these passages, some could say, 'well, God will protect His children from this evil and His Wrath, or God removes them to another location'; or does God, through Jesus, take us away altogether, that we won't be subject to His Wrath (commencing at the installation of the Anti-Christ), which the Church should not have to face?
Yes, we have always and will always face tribulation, sickness and death in this world - that which comes to all of us as living in corrupt bodies in a corrupt evil world. But when God begins to show His Anger against Christ-rejecters (beginning at the revelation of the Anti-Christ) & about to show them His Power in destruction, as they have never seen before, I ask, should the redeemed called-out Church be a part of God's Anger & Plan as well? If all this was simply a greater intensity of our trials & tribulations on Earth, then of course, we must face it with courage & faith. But if it is the commencement of God's Action against this evil World, then the Church cannot be a part of it, for it then places God's Salvation for us and our Adoption into His Family into great doubt & ridicule.
So this is where I sit, though I also realize that our definition of terms such as, Great Tribulation, God's Wrath, the Second Coming, etc. can influence how we read the Scriptures and the formation of our beliefs. So thank you again brother for your good & appreciated input. Blessings.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-10. Agreed, 2 Peter 3:10 speaks of the Day of the Lord coming unexpectedly with the major upheaval of the heavens and Earth, as does Paul, who possibly infers that there is a wider time frame or meaning regarding that Day ( 1 Corinthians 5:5 & 2 Corinthians 1:14). In any case, it involves all things associated with Jesus' Day of appearing. So here in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10, Paul iterates that that Day will come suddenly, thus it being a useless exercise to attempt placing it in a time frame, but as the Church is the children of God living in the light and not as those who live in darkness, that Day would not suddenly come upon them. Rather they should be comforted and fully clothed with the Spirit because God has not appointed them to His wrath (of verse 3) but to be saved from this through the Lord Jesus' (v9). If this saving from God's Wrath is to refer to His Wrath against man's sins, then there appears no reason for mentioning this in this context. His Wrath here is anger towards unbelievers at that time who will face His "sudden destruction". And to give further support to this meaning, we can look at 1 Thessalonians 1:10, Paul stating that the Church was "to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come".
Yes, Matthew chap 24 is about Jesus' Second Coming and particularly Matthew 24:29-31, that the powers of the heavens will be shaken, Jesus' appearing in the skies, the tribes of the earth mourning, and the gathering together of his Elect from all over the world. Some would assume that not only this scene is connected with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51,52, but also that the Elect referred to are all those in Christ. To Page 3.
a) Revelation 3:10 (to the Philadelphian Church). This refers to the final seven year tribulation period in which the antichrist will be allowed to deceive the world ( 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12). Believers can have hope that should this final period come to pass in their lifetimes, they will be kept from having to face God's wrath during the tribulation period; and this Great Tribulation as Jesus spoke about (in Matthew 24:21-31) is the Day of God's Wrath, from which the Church is to be kept from. Even in Zephaniah 2:3, a little glimpse is given of those who will be "hid in the day of the LORD's ANGER".
b) 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and 1 Thessalonians 1:10: believers are not appointed to bear God's Wrath but to receive His salvation from it. While it is true that God's wrath is most fully poured out in the sentencing of unbelievers to hell, Revelation 6:15-17 makes it clear that God's wrath is also being poured out upon the earth during the tribulation period (for that is what it means) and believers will not be a part of that. However, those who come to faith during the tribulation will have to suffer the effects of God's wrath, not having received the promise of being kept from the hour of trial. But those days will be cut short for His Elect's sake ( Matthew 24:22).
c) Revelation 19:7-9. The Church is already in Heaven with the Lord, clothed & prepared for the marriage of the Lamb. It is following this that Jesus is seen with the armies of heaven coming to earth to lie waste the armies of the earth and to cast the beast and false prophet into the Lake of Fire ( Revelation 19:11-21). Thus, the church must have already been raptured and taken to heaven before Jesus comes the second time. To Page 3.
1 Thessalonians 1:3 - Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
I'll point out the technicalities to you because these are important. Notice that in each of these three phrases, it says of faith, of love, and of hope. It shows that each one of these is producing the very thing that's before it. Faith is producing the work. Love is producing the labor. And hope is producing the patience. This is the work of faith. Work does not produce faith, but faith produces works. This is one of Paul's triads, faith, hope, and love.
The word faith itself in Greek means persuasion. So, the believers in the early church, they lived by a persuasion that other people couldn't see. It was invisible to the human. It's spiritual. And the word hope in Greek, ELPIDZO, has to do with constant expectancy. It doesn't mean to wish or hope that something happens. It is confidence that you know it's going to happen.
So, your work of faith, your labor of love, and patience of hope, and in the King James text, it says in the Lord Jesus Christ. But the Greek text says of the Lord Jesus Christ. That is to say that faith, love, and hope is of the Lord. It belongs to Him.
1 Thessalonians 1:6 - And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:
The word followers is the Greek word MIMETAI which is where we get our word mimic or mime from. You became mimics. The reason why I emphasize the point is that some people think that Paul is using the word for copying. Paul didn't call on them to copy him. In fact, in 1 Corinthians 11:1, he said it again, be ye followers, or imitators of me, even as I also am of Christ. It's the same word MIMETAI.
(1 Thessalonians Part 1): Written to the believers in Thessalonica who were made up of mostly Gentiles, but some Jews believed also. There are two themes that are found in Thessalonians. This is what is called an eschatological letter. ESKATOS means last days.
We study the rapture of the church in 1 Thessalonians, and we study the second coming of Christ in 2 Thessalonians. He's dealing with last days issues.
1 Thessalonians 1:1 - Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Silvanus is known as Silas. In Acts 15:22 he is called Silas. He's one of the leaders from the church in Jerusalem that goes with Paul back to Antioch. Silas was a Roman citizen just like Paul was, though he was Jewish. Silvanus is his Latin name (his Roman name), and Silas is his Greek name.
Paul always presents his letter as Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace (CHARIS) is the Greek greeting, and peace (SHALOM)is the Jewish greeting. And so, he's greeting both the Gentiles as well as the Jews.
Hi again Fuji. 1 Thessalonians 2:19. This ties in with 1 Thessalonians 1:10, "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come". And then to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10.
When we place all these Scriptures together, considering that Paul was addressing the same matter in the one epistle, we can learn that he is speaking about the coming of the Lord. The believers are not only to wait expectantly for the Lord's Coming, but to be careful in their Christian living until that day - that day when they would be transformed & forever to be with their Lord.
But what happens if Paul (or us) die first, before Jesus comes? Though our bodies lie in the grave (or, not even exist in any substantial form), our spirits do return to God Who gave it ( Ecclesiastes 12:7). And we read of people alive beyond the grave ( Luke 16:19-31; Matthew 17:1-3 as examples). But when Jesus returns in the clouds for us, the dead (believers' bodies) arise first to meet him in the air, & those believers still alive will be caught up (Latin, rapio (rapture); Greek, Harpazo) to join the others in this great moment of joy & fulfilment of our hopes & longings to be with our Savior forever. To this end, Paul (in 1 Thessalonians 2:19), is stating that when Jesus comes, he (Paul) will personally rejoice greatly to see his beloved Thessalonian believers also come into Christ's Presence, as his crown for his labors amongst them. Onto Page 2.
Every sinner is in need of God's mercy. When one realizes this and cries to God for mercy we admit to deserving eternal punishment for our sins as well as being undeserving of His mercy. By rights, we should be under his impending wrath, like all mankind ( Ephesians 2:3) - but for "the tender mercy of our God" ( Luke 1:78), in which Jesus took god's wrath in our place and allows for our sins to be forgiven.
In Titus 3:4-7, the apostle Paul gives us one of the best descriptions of God's mercy as revealed in Jesus Christ:
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
God's mercy forgives and saves us specifically because He withholds the punishment, condemnation and wrath we deserve.
Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Exodus 33:19 reveals a great glimpse of God's mercy. In one of the most important passages in all the Bible, after Moses has asked God to show him his glory, God answers, "I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name 'The Lord.' And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy."
When asked to show his glory, God puts his goodness in grace and mercy on display - and his utter freedom in showing his mercy to whomever he chooses.
5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
NOT TO BITE ANOTHER AND DEVOUR
Not to be destructive and harm one another.
It can come back on you
Having Faith Scriptures
1 Thessalonians 1:3KJV
remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
Galatians 5:6KJV
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Ways you can have faith in Jesus Christ Scriptures
Galatians 5:13-15KJV
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Psalm 25:8KJV
Good and upright is the LORD: Therefore will he teach sinners in the way.
I have used faith in serving others in the love of Gof not biting and devouring people.
remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
Galatians 5:6 KJV
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Ways you can have faith in Jesus Christ Scriptures
Galatians 5:13-15 KJV
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Psalm 25:8 KJV
Good and upright is the LORD: Therefore will he teach sinners in the way.
I have used faith in serving others in the love of Gof not biting and devouring people.
The gospel that produces changed lives comes in much assurance. Many who lack assurance are sincere, but they have actually never been born again.
Emotionalism..
Some depend upon an emotional experience, and they do not have the knowledge of their salvation. The gospel has not been given to them accurately, and they merely rest upon an emotional upheaval. If the experience was significant, then they fall back upon it to fortify their faith. When the emotional experience wears thin and there is not much to rest upon, then doubts and uncertainty creep in to make the heart disturbed. Many of these people do not know the assurance that there is in the gospel:
That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ. ( Colossians 2:2)
Sin.
Unconfessed sin in the life of a believer is the greatest single factor in robbing one of the assurance of salvation. God wants us to have the full assurance of faith; this comes experientially through fellowship with God. Sin breaks our fellowship, and this, in time, sets up a chain reaction that breaks our assurance.
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth. ( 1 John 1:6)
We can bluff our way through before others by putting up a front that all is well. But underneath, doubts begin to gnaw like little foxes at the fringe of our faith, and we actually feel that we are not really God's children. We dread the light because it makes us more conscious of our doubts. God is still our Father nonetheless, and a conviction of sin is pretty good evidence. We have lost our fellowship - not our salvation.
You are right, the word "even" doesn't appear in the grk text. As you said it was probably used to emphasize Jesus' person.
The grk says:
Acts 9:17,"...the Lord sent me, Jesus, who appeared to you on the way that you were coming..."
1 Thessalonians 1:10, "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus, who releases of us from the coming wrath."
Hebrews 6:20, " Where forerunner for us Jesus entered, becoming high priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedec".
1 John 5:6, "He is who came through water and blood, Jesus Christ; not in water only, but in water and blood. And the Spirit is that bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth."
The text I am using is the majority text which is almost the same as the received text.
Hi Cheryl1655. I understand what you are thinking & could be confusing, as several verses in the NT have this phrase, "even Jesus" ( Acts 9:17, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, Hebrews 6:20, 1 John 5:6). I couldn't detect the word 'even' appearing in the Greek (our Greek reading/speaking brothers could verify this), so I surmise that the KJB translators added this word to emphasize the One Who was being spoken/written of. It's probably like us saying, "the Lord, that is, Jesus", or "Whither the forerunner is for us entered, the very One called Jesus", when we want to correctly or emphatically point to Jesus alone. So these verses don't speak of two different people, just the One called Jesus.
Thank you again, from my heart, the truth is my search not to offend. It all goes back to one verse when I read it, it stood out in my heart, Corinthians 11:4. I know I am alone here on this, but saying Jesus is part of the Triune God, who eternally exists and expresses himself as three distinct persons with one essence all three co-equal. One God in three persons-the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This to me denies the Son, 1 John 2:23
What I see in the Bible is the relationship between the Father and the Son, the Son is obedient to the Father. Jesus said His Father is greater than Him, John 14:28. Jesus has said the Father is His God, John 20:17Revelation 3:12.
The Bible defines God's nature as eternal and unchanging; there is only one throne of God and through the Bible, only the Father is on the throne until the Father raised His Son from the dead and placed Him on His right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, there is nothing about the Holy Spirit.
As we see in Revelation Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple and the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof, Rev. 21:22-23 no Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit, not another person.
Jesus confirmed there is only one true God, Mark 12:28-34, in Jesus's prayer to His Father said in John 17:3. All the greetings in the New Testament are from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, Galatians 1:3Ephesians 6:231 Thessalonians 1:12 Timothy 1:2Titus 1:42 John 1:3 and more but no Holy Spirit.
If the Trinity true and is so important, why is it not once taught in Scripture? God cannot change and God cannot die, so how do we understand John 3:16 if God the Father did not send his actual begotten Son to die for our sins? We see Jesus also had His own will, Luke 22:42.
Thank you, you are correct I believe in one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ as most of the greetings in the epistles Ephesians 6:231 Thessalonians 1:1 and more, and nowhere is this doctrine taught in the New Testament that we must believe for salvation.
It is like Matthew 28:19 the baptizing in the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit but nowhere do we see it in the New Testament all were baptized in the name of Jesus and only in the name of Jesus are we saved. My study of 1 John 5:7 is that it was added from the Latin Vulgate and was not in the original text, but that can be debated.
I understand I am in the minority and have discussed this before. We can find Scripture to fit a doctrine, but can we find Scripture where the doctrine was taught? I have not found where the Trinity doctrine is taught. Like Genesis 1:26 there are many beings in heaven and the word us does not say God was speaking to Jesus, that is an assumption.
Thank you again for discussing this in a loving and respectful manor, this subject is deep and as long as we have love for each other, and truth is what we are in search of.
Hi Cheryl1655. The passage you read in Revelation 21:1-3 about the new heaven (sky) & new Earth and then the New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven, are events (including those in Revelation 22) that will take place right at the very end of earthly time as we know it. This account shows us the end of Satan & his influence on mankind, the end of sin & corruption, & the arrival of a complete renewal of God's original creation, with God in the midst. These are glorious visions which the Apostle John received from Jesus for those end times, and sadly the vision of all those who have rejected Jesus & loved to live in sin, hating the God of Heaven, these will go into punishment of everlasting fire ( Revelation 21:8).
"The meeting in the sky" is what I believe you're referring to as the Rapture, or 'the snatching away' (Latin, 'rapio'; Greek, 'harpazo'), and this is referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, which the Apostle Paul's was teaching to those Churches. Now this event (the Rapture) is a subject that has a whole range of views & beliefs amongst Christians, as we piece together what information we're given in the Bible, figuring the how, when, where, this occurs (or, likely to occur). However, to answer your question, my understanding of the Scriptures is that the Rapture ('the lifting up of the living & dead in Christ & meeting Jesus in the sky') is the next great event in God's 'calendar', where His saved, holy ones are removed from the Earth before His Wrath is poured upon the Earth of unbelievers (otherwise called, the Great Tribulation of God's Wrath (see Matthew chapter 24)). See also 1 Thessalonians 1:10 & 1 Thessalonians 5:8-10.
However one views this 'snatching away' & the Day of God's Wrath upon the Earth, the message to those IN CHRIST is clear: BE READY, Live lives pleasing to the Lord, that we may "not be ashamed before Him at His Coming" ( 1 John 2:28,29). GBU.
This is my favorite scripture because, you can dig into this scripture really deeply! James 1:19-20 is literally the main learning point of the old saying "God gave us two ears and one mouth for a reason", we should should use our ears to listen and learn and when we gain wisdom through this we can then use that wisdom to teach through our mouths; Cross References= Proverbs 17:27 and Proverbs 14:29! James 1:21-24 goes to show that we should lay aside all disobedience and defiance, read the word and live it; Romans 2:13, Jeremiah 44:16, and 1 Thessalonians 1:5!
"4 And my(Paul's) speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, BUT IN DEMONSTRATION OF THE SPIRIT AND OF POWER: 5 That your faith should NOT stand in the wisdom of men, BUT in the power of God."
How many preachers can say that? I hear people saying that we don't need miracles any more, those were for those early times, just preaching is enough. I don't think Paul would agree with that.
1 Thessalonians 1:5,
"For our gospel came not unto you in word ONLY, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake."
Hello, I agree with brother Chris that verse 9 and 10 are communicating the message of the living and true God and those who once served idols can now serve by the power of the Holy Ghost vs 5, the one who came from heaven, the Son, who was raised from the dead, delivered us by faith vs 3 from the wrath to come, even Jesus.
Hello Cheryl1655. I think you might have misread that verse. Going back to the previous verse (v9), the Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians there, that after the Gospel came to them, they turned from serving idols to serve the Living God. And not just that, but (in v10), that they now awaited expectantly for Jesus' Return (God's Son coming from Heaven), this Jesus, Whom God had ALREADY raised from the dead, & would deliver them from the wrath to come (of everyday tribulations & the Great Tribulation that is yet to come). So Jesus who had died & rose from the grave, God will one day send Him back to deliver them & us. I hope that clarifies this verse for you.
You might note in all of my comments where I speak about the Nature of Salvation, I always stress that Christ does 100% of the Work in saving those whom He saves and that Salvation is by Grace Alone. There is a reason for this.
We must start with the very clear statement of Romans 3:10-18 that ALL of mankind is Spiritually DEAD and will never exercise "faith in God"or "believe on Christ" in a way that is pleasing to God, despite the fact that we are COMMANDED to do so.
Our Faith and Our Belief (one is the verb the other is the noun) are Works that we do ( 1 Thessalonians 1:3). And the Bible is crystal clear that our works can never save us. So we are not saved by God's Grace and Our Faith. We are saved by God's Grace Alone. Our Faith and Our Belief are the RESULT of our Salvation. They are not a CAUSE nor a BASIS for our Salvation.
Unfortunately, if you go into virtually any church today you will be presented with some form of a Works-Grace gospel. And this is one reason why I believe that 1 Pet 4:17 and other related passages are in play today. And this is very sad to say.
Thanks Tammy. Yes 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 is very important. You're correct that Paul gives them insight when the Day of Christ will begin. The Thessalonians feared that it had already begun, being troubled by false teachers, that they were in it already (because of 2 Thessalonians 1:4) & the Lord had not yet come (even as Paul had earlier spoken to them about "these things" (v5)). So again, Paul had to rehearse these matters with them to assure & comfort them to pay heed to him & not others, that they had not missed out on Christ's coming, "and by our gathering together unto him".
That there has to first be a departure from the faith (an apostasy); I understand this to be the general deterioration within the Church (as we even see now with the preaching of error & the Church, which ought to be seen as the Light & Body of Christ, has become in many places, a haven for Satan to have his way & lead many devout earnest people happily into hell's pit). And after this will be the revelation of the anti-Christ.
Is it at this point (mid-trib) that you believe the world, including the Church will go into the Great Tribulation & come under the anti-Christ? Or, could it be that this is at the very beginning of the Day of Christ, where the Great Tribulation is about to begin but first there will be the "falling away & the revelation of the man of sin"? If, as I believe, the Gt. Tribulation is the tribulation from God (His Wrath & not man's daily tribulations), then I understand Paul stating to the believers there, 'the rapture will happen first at the introduction of the man of sin & then God's Wrath - so don't be misled that that day has already started.'
Before the Wrath (the Great Tribulation) must come the rapture - the anti-Christ is revealed because God has allowed it by removing His Restrainer - and if His Wrath is to be poured out on unbelievers, where is His Church, the one which was not appointed to receive His Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:9)?
Who are those who are left? ( Mt 24:40-41) and ( Luke 17:34-36) Tell us "one shall be taken, and the other "left" ( 1 Thessalonians 1:10) Tells us "which (delivered) us from the wrath to come" The word (delivered) is #4506; it means to rush or draw (for oneself) rescue. So True Believers are (delivered) or (rescued) (saved) from the wrath to come! The True Believers are the ones taken, the ones left will face the wrath to come. ( Jn 3:36) Tells us He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life (those taken), and those who believeth not the Son the wrath of God abideth on him (those left). ( Romans 5:9) Tell us we are (saved) from wrath through him. The word (saved) is #4982; it means "safe" to save, i.e. deliver or protect. The same meaning as the word (body) in ( Luke 17:37) Which are those who are (taken) (saved) from the wrath to come, they are the (body) of Christ. ( Romans 1:18) The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteous of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. ( Col 3:6) "the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience" ( Eph 5:6) "because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience" The word (disobedience) is #543; it means to disbelieve (willfully and perversely) not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. (These unbelievers will be the ((ones left)) to face the wrath of God) As for True Believers? ( 1 Thessalonians 5:9) "For God hath not appointed (us) to wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ". Believers will be (saved) (delivered) (rescued) from the wrath to come. He will receive True Believers unto Himself. The word (taken) means to receive near. ( John 14:3) Tells us "I will come again, and receive you unto myself". The ones (taken) are saved from the wrath to come! The ones (left) the wrath of God abideth on them! ( Mt 24:29-31) clearly tells us (when) this event takes place. (Immediately after the tribulation) Truth matters. Blessings.
Thanks brother Jesse for that extra information from Joel & how we should understand the last days. After reading your comment, my thoughts also turned to Hebrews 1:1,2, "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath IN THESE LAST DAYS spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds...".
Here, the distinction is also made clear: there were the old days when God spoke to HIS people through the mouths of His prophets, but now in "these last days" (i.e. the whole period from Jesus' first Coming & ministering to His people, as the Word of (& from) God made flesh, till He comes again). And when He comes again, it will be for HIS Church (the great assembly of saved Jew & Gentile). When the prophets of old spoke as 'thus & thus saith the LORD', Israel held them in disdain & rejected God's warnings, resulting in them being sent away into exilic chastisement. But in these last days, those who've taken heed & believed in God's Words, even in Jesus His Son, will also be taken away, not to chastisement & His Wrath as disobedient Israel received, but to Himself, as we "wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come" ( 1 Thessalonians 1:10). Thanks again Jesse & every blessing.
d. the revelation of the anti-Christ is restrained ( 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12). Paul's reason for writing this was because the Church was greatly troubled that the Day of the Lord (Christ) had begun. Paul said that that day wouldn't commence until Jesus came for them & raptured them ("our gathering together unto him": v1). The 'restrainer' is the Holy Spirit in God's people, then when He is removed, God's people are removed, for the Holy Spirit was sent to indwell us & work in & through us & for the Gospel's propagation ( John 16:7,8,13).
e. a comparison between an imminent Rapture & Rapture at the Second Coming:
1. Translation of all believers ( 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18) --- No translation at all ( Revelation 19:6-21).
2. Raptured saints return to Heaven ( 1 Thessalonians 4:17; John 14:1-3) --- Raptured saints return to Earth ( 1 Thessalonians 3:13; Revelation 19:14).
3. Any moment, in readiness, without signs ( 1 Corinthians 1:7; Philippians 4:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:6; Titus 2:13; James 5:7-9; Revelation 3:11, 22:7,12,20) --- many signs given of the Great Tribulation which leads into Jesus' coming (so a readiness cannot be expected, as the seven year's count down begins with the anti-Christ).
A Pre-Tribulation Rapture position keeps the Church ready & watching for her Lord's Coming. Any other position can give her the tendency to apathy & carelessness. The Church is told to be watchful, in spite of ridicule, "where is the promise of his coming" ( 2 Peter 3:4). But Christ's coming is held back until the full number are saved (v9) - and then Jesus will come to take His Church Home.
Yes Jimbob, I would be happy to & will try to be succinct. Though I should mention that the meaning of the Great Tribulation, or Day of the Lord, needs to be clarified first. I understand, as you do, that the time of the outpouring of God's Wrath upon the World can be understood as the Great Tribulation, but I see the final week (7 years) of Daniel's seventy weeks, 490 years: Daniel 9:24-27, as the final seven years - years that will change the World's existence & future forever. And by the way, you believe in a post-trib rapture & I understand that as being before God's Wrath poured out. I view this position to be one of mid-trib for the reason I've shared above, but that's not the point here.
Now my Scriptures for a pre-trib (or, pre-Day of the Lord) rapture:
a. the Church is a mystery ( Ephesians 1:1-13), by which believing Jew & Gentile are united into one Body ( Ephesians 2:11-22). Therefore, the Church's translation is not mentioned in the OT that deals with Christ's Second Coming after the Tribulation, & why the Church is promised deliverance before the time of God's Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
b. the 70th week in Daniel, is the preparation of Israel's restoration & regeneration ( Deuteronomy 4:29-30; Jeremiah 30:4-11; Ezekiel 20:22-44; Ezekiel 22:13-22).
c. the Tribulation (including anti-Christ's reign) is not for the Church, but for those who are in the world ( Revelation 3:10; 8:13; 11:10; 13:8,12,14; 17:2,8). The Church is never seen here & will not participate in Israel's time of trouble.
Dear Heavenly Father, we come to You in the name of Jesus today and ask that You will bring Robert through this surgery with success and a full recovery. We as that You keep Robert safe and sound during and after this surgery without complications or any downturns in his recovery. We ask You Father, to relieve any pain Robert has post-surgery and that the problem that led to needing surgery is completely resolved. Amen.
But as Paul writes in 1 Thessalonians 1:10 ("His Son from heaven, which delivered us from the wrath TO COME") and 1 Thessalonians 5:9 ("For God hath NOT APPOINTED us to wrath (the Wrath of verse 3), but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ"). From these passages, some could say, 'well, God will protect His children from this evil and His Wrath, or God removes them to another location'; or does God, through Jesus, take us away altogether, that we won't be subject to His Wrath (commencing at the installation of the Anti-Christ), which the Church should not have to face?
Yes, we have always and will always face tribulation, sickness and death in this world - that which comes to all of us as living in corrupt bodies in a corrupt evil world. But when God begins to show His Anger against Christ-rejecters (beginning at the revelation of the Anti-Christ) & about to show them His Power in destruction, as they have never seen before, I ask, should the redeemed called-out Church be a part of God's Anger & Plan as well? If all this was simply a greater intensity of our trials & tribulations on Earth, then of course, we must face it with courage & faith. But if it is the commencement of God's Action against this evil World, then the Church cannot be a part of it, for it then places God's Salvation for us and our Adoption into His Family into great doubt & ridicule.
So this is where I sit, though I also realize that our definition of terms such as, Great Tribulation, God's Wrath, the Second Coming, etc. can influence how we read the Scriptures and the formation of our beliefs. So thank you again brother for your good & appreciated input. Blessings.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-10. Agreed, 2 Peter 3:10 speaks of the Day of the Lord coming unexpectedly with the major upheaval of the heavens and Earth, as does Paul, who possibly infers that there is a wider time frame or meaning regarding that Day ( 1 Corinthians 5:5 & 2 Corinthians 1:14). In any case, it involves all things associated with Jesus' Day of appearing. So here in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10, Paul iterates that that Day will come suddenly, thus it being a useless exercise to attempt placing it in a time frame, but as the Church is the children of God living in the light and not as those who live in darkness, that Day would not suddenly come upon them. Rather they should be comforted and fully clothed with the Spirit because God has not appointed them to His wrath (of verse 3) but to be saved from this through the Lord Jesus' (v9). If this saving from God's Wrath is to refer to His Wrath against man's sins, then there appears no reason for mentioning this in this context. His Wrath here is anger towards unbelievers at that time who will face His "sudden destruction". And to give further support to this meaning, we can look at 1 Thessalonians 1:10, Paul stating that the Church was "to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come".
Yes, Matthew chap 24 is about Jesus' Second Coming and particularly Matthew 24:29-31, that the powers of the heavens will be shaken, Jesus' appearing in the skies, the tribes of the earth mourning, and the gathering together of his Elect from all over the world. Some would assume that not only this scene is connected with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51,52, but also that the Elect referred to are all those in Christ. To Page 3.
So to some pertinent portions from the Word:
a) Revelation 3:10 (to the Philadelphian Church). This refers to the final seven year tribulation period in which the antichrist will be allowed to deceive the world ( 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12). Believers can have hope that should this final period come to pass in their lifetimes, they will be kept from having to face God's wrath during the tribulation period; and this Great Tribulation as Jesus spoke about (in Matthew 24:21-31) is the Day of God's Wrath, from which the Church is to be kept from. Even in Zephaniah 2:3, a little glimpse is given of those who will be "hid in the day of the LORD's ANGER".
b) 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and 1 Thessalonians 1:10: believers are not appointed to bear God's Wrath but to receive His salvation from it. While it is true that God's wrath is most fully poured out in the sentencing of unbelievers to hell, Revelation 6:15-17 makes it clear that God's wrath is also being poured out upon the earth during the tribulation period (for that is what it means) and believers will not be a part of that. However, those who come to faith during the tribulation will have to suffer the effects of God's wrath, not having received the promise of being kept from the hour of trial. But those days will be cut short for His Elect's sake ( Matthew 24:22).
c) Revelation 19:7-9. The Church is already in Heaven with the Lord, clothed & prepared for the marriage of the Lamb. It is following this that Jesus is seen with the armies of heaven coming to earth to lie waste the armies of the earth and to cast the beast and false prophet into the Lake of Fire ( Revelation 19:11-21). Thus, the church must have already been raptured and taken to heaven before Jesus comes the second time. To Page 3.
1 Thessalonians 1:3 - Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
I'll point out the technicalities to you because these are important. Notice that in each of these three phrases, it says of faith, of love, and of hope. It shows that each one of these is producing the very thing that's before it. Faith is producing the work. Love is producing the labor. And hope is producing the patience. This is the work of faith. Work does not produce faith, but faith produces works. This is one of Paul's triads, faith, hope, and love.
The word faith itself in Greek means persuasion. So, the believers in the early church, they lived by a persuasion that other people couldn't see. It was invisible to the human. It's spiritual. And the word hope in Greek, ELPIDZO, has to do with constant expectancy. It doesn't mean to wish or hope that something happens. It is confidence that you know it's going to happen.
So, your work of faith, your labor of love, and patience of hope, and in the King James text, it says in the Lord Jesus Christ. But the Greek text says of the Lord Jesus Christ. That is to say that faith, love, and hope is of the Lord. It belongs to Him.
1 Thessalonians 1:6 - And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:
The word followers is the Greek word MIMETAI which is where we get our word mimic or mime from. You became mimics. The reason why I emphasize the point is that some people think that Paul is using the word for copying. Paul didn't call on them to copy him. In fact, in 1 Corinthians 11:1, he said it again, be ye followers, or imitators of me, even as I also am of Christ. It's the same word MIMETAI.
(1 Thessalonians Part 1): Written to the believers in Thessalonica who were made up of mostly Gentiles, but some Jews believed also. There are two themes that are found in Thessalonians. This is what is called an eschatological letter. ESKATOS means last days.
We study the rapture of the church in 1 Thessalonians, and we study the second coming of Christ in 2 Thessalonians. He's dealing with last days issues.
1 Thessalonians 1:1 - Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Silvanus is known as Silas. In Acts 15:22 he is called Silas. He's one of the leaders from the church in Jerusalem that goes with Paul back to Antioch. Silas was a Roman citizen just like Paul was, though he was Jewish. Silvanus is his Latin name (his Roman name), and Silas is his Greek name.
Paul always presents his letter as Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace (CHARIS) is the Greek greeting, and peace (SHALOM)is the Jewish greeting. And so, he's greeting both the Gentiles as well as the Jews.
Hi again Fuji. 1 Thessalonians 2:19. This ties in with 1 Thessalonians 1:10, "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come". And then to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10.
When we place all these Scriptures together, considering that Paul was addressing the same matter in the one epistle, we can learn that he is speaking about the coming of the Lord. The believers are not only to wait expectantly for the Lord's Coming, but to be careful in their Christian living until that day - that day when they would be transformed & forever to be with their Lord.
But what happens if Paul (or us) die first, before Jesus comes? Though our bodies lie in the grave (or, not even exist in any substantial form), our spirits do return to God Who gave it ( Ecclesiastes 12:7). And we read of people alive beyond the grave ( Luke 16:19-31; Matthew 17:1-3 as examples). But when Jesus returns in the clouds for us, the dead (believers' bodies) arise first to meet him in the air, & those believers still alive will be caught up (Latin, rapio (rapture); Greek, Harpazo) to join the others in this great moment of joy & fulfilment of our hopes & longings to be with our Savior forever. To this end, Paul (in 1 Thessalonians 2:19), is stating that when Jesus comes, he (Paul) will personally rejoice greatly to see his beloved Thessalonian believers also come into Christ's Presence, as his crown for his labors amongst them. Onto Page 2.
GOD'S MERCY IS NEW EVERY MORNING AND NEVER FAILS
Every sinner is in need of God's mercy. When one realizes this and cries to God for mercy we admit to deserving eternal punishment for our sins as well as being undeserving of His mercy. By rights, we should be under his impending wrath, like all mankind ( Ephesians 2:3) - but for "the tender mercy of our God" ( Luke 1:78), in which Jesus took god's wrath in our place and allows for our sins to be forgiven.
In Titus 3:4-7, the apostle Paul gives us one of the best descriptions of God's mercy as revealed in Jesus Christ:
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
God's mercy forgives and saves us specifically because He withholds the punishment, condemnation and wrath we deserve.
Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Exodus 33:19 reveals a great glimpse of God's mercy. In one of the most important passages in all the Bible, after Moses has asked God to show him his glory, God answers, "I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name 'The Lord.' And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy."
When asked to show his glory, God puts his goodness in grace and mercy on display - and his utter freedom in showing his mercy to whomever he chooses.
See Pt. 2
5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
NOT TO BITE ANOTHER AND DEVOUR
Not to be destructive and harm one another.
It can come back on you
Having Faith Scriptures
1 Thessalonians 1:3KJV
remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
Galatians 5:6KJV
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Ways you can have faith in Jesus Christ Scriptures
Galatians 5:13-15KJV
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Psalm 25:8KJV
Good and upright is the LORD: Therefore will he teach sinners in the way.
I have used faith in serving others in the love of Gof not biting and devouring people.
Wriiten and spoken Word by REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY
Not to be destructive and harm one another.
It can come back on you
Having Faith Scriptures
1 Thessalonians 1:3 KJV
remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
Galatians 5:6 KJV
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Ways you can have faith in Jesus Christ Scriptures
Galatians 5:13-15 KJV
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Psalm 25:8 KJV
Good and upright is the LORD: Therefore will he teach sinners in the way.
I have used faith in serving others in the love of Gof not biting and devouring people.
( 1 Thessalonians 1:5)
The gospel that produces changed lives comes in much assurance. Many who lack assurance are sincere, but they have actually never been born again.
Emotionalism..
Some depend upon an emotional experience, and they do not have the knowledge of their salvation. The gospel has not been given to them accurately, and they merely rest upon an emotional upheaval. If the experience was significant, then they fall back upon it to fortify their faith. When the emotional experience wears thin and there is not much to rest upon, then doubts and uncertainty creep in to make the heart disturbed. Many of these people do not know the assurance that there is in the gospel:
That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ. ( Colossians 2:2)
Sin.
Unconfessed sin in the life of a believer is the greatest single factor in robbing one of the assurance of salvation. God wants us to have the full assurance of faith; this comes experientially through fellowship with God. Sin breaks our fellowship, and this, in time, sets up a chain reaction that breaks our assurance.
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth. ( 1 John 1:6)
We can bluff our way through before others by putting up a front that all is well. But underneath, doubts begin to gnaw like little foxes at the fringe of our faith, and we actually feel that we are not really God's children. We dread the light because it makes us more conscious of our doubts. God is still our Father nonetheless, and a conviction of sin is pretty good evidence. We have lost our fellowship - not our salvation.
See Part 6.
You are right, the word "even" doesn't appear in the grk text. As you said it was probably used to emphasize Jesus' person.
The grk says:
Acts 9:17,"...the Lord sent me, Jesus, who appeared to you on the way that you were coming..."
1 Thessalonians 1:10, "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus, who releases of us from the coming wrath."
Hebrews 6:20, " Where forerunner for us Jesus entered, becoming high priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedec".
1 John 5:6, "He is who came through water and blood, Jesus Christ; not in water only, but in water and blood. And the Spirit is that bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth."
The text I am using is the majority text which is almost the same as the received text.
Thank you again, from my heart, the truth is my search not to offend. It all goes back to one verse when I read it, it stood out in my heart, Corinthians 11:4. I know I am alone here on this, but saying Jesus is part of the Triune God, who eternally exists and expresses himself as three distinct persons with one essence all three co-equal. One God in three persons-the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This to me denies the Son, 1 John 2:23
What I see in the Bible is the relationship between the Father and the Son, the Son is obedient to the Father. Jesus said His Father is greater than Him, John 14:28. Jesus has said the Father is His God, John 20:17 Revelation 3:12.
The Bible defines God's nature as eternal and unchanging; there is only one throne of God and through the Bible, only the Father is on the throne until the Father raised His Son from the dead and placed Him on His right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, there is nothing about the Holy Spirit.
As we see in Revelation Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple and the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof, Rev. 21:22-23 no Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit, not another person.
Jesus confirmed there is only one true God, Mark 12:28-34, in Jesus's prayer to His Father said in John 17:3. All the greetings in the New Testament are from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, Galatians 1:3 Ephesians 6:23 1 Thessalonians 1:1 2 Timothy 1:2 Titus 1:4 2 John 1:3 and more but no Holy Spirit.
If the Trinity true and is so important, why is it not once taught in Scripture? God cannot change and God cannot die, so how do we understand John 3:16 if God the Father did not send his actual begotten Son to die for our sins? We see Jesus also had His own will, Luke 22:42.
God bless,
RLW
Thank you, you are correct I believe in one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ as most of the greetings in the epistles Ephesians 6:23 1 Thessalonians 1:1 and more, and nowhere is this doctrine taught in the New Testament that we must believe for salvation.
It is like Matthew 28:19 the baptizing in the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit but nowhere do we see it in the New Testament all were baptized in the name of Jesus and only in the name of Jesus are we saved. My study of 1 John 5:7 is that it was added from the Latin Vulgate and was not in the original text, but that can be debated.
I understand I am in the minority and have discussed this before. We can find Scripture to fit a doctrine, but can we find Scripture where the doctrine was taught? I have not found where the Trinity doctrine is taught. Like Genesis 1:26 there are many beings in heaven and the word us does not say God was speaking to Jesus, that is an assumption.
Thank you again for discussing this in a loving and respectful manor, this subject is deep and as long as we have love for each other, and truth is what we are in search of.
God bless,
RLW
"The meeting in the sky" is what I believe you're referring to as the Rapture, or 'the snatching away' (Latin, 'rapio'; Greek, 'harpazo'), and this is referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, which the Apostle Paul's was teaching to those Churches. Now this event (the Rapture) is a subject that has a whole range of views & beliefs amongst Christians, as we piece together what information we're given in the Bible, figuring the how, when, where, this occurs (or, likely to occur). However, to answer your question, my understanding of the Scriptures is that the Rapture ('the lifting up of the living & dead in Christ & meeting Jesus in the sky') is the next great event in God's 'calendar', where His saved, holy ones are removed from the Earth before His Wrath is poured upon the Earth of unbelievers (otherwise called, the Great Tribulation of God's Wrath (see Matthew chapter 24)). See also 1 Thessalonians 1:10 & 1 Thessalonians 5:8-10.
However one views this 'snatching away' & the Day of God's Wrath upon the Earth, the message to those IN CHRIST is clear: BE READY, Live lives pleasing to the Lord, that we may "not be ashamed before Him at His Coming" ( 1 John 2:28,29). GBU.
This is my favorite scripture because, you can dig into this scripture really deeply! James 1:19-20 is literally the main learning point of the old saying "God gave us two ears and one mouth for a reason", we should should use our ears to listen and learn and when we gain wisdom through this we can then use that wisdom to teach through our mouths; Cross References= Proverbs 17:27 and Proverbs 14:29! James 1:21-24 goes to show that we should lay aside all disobedience and defiance, read the word and live it; Romans 2:13, Jeremiah 44:16, and 1 Thessalonians 1:5!
"4 And my(Paul's) speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, BUT IN DEMONSTRATION OF THE SPIRIT AND OF POWER: 5 That your faith should NOT stand in the wisdom of men, BUT in the power of God."
How many preachers can say that? I hear people saying that we don't need miracles any more, those were for those early times, just preaching is enough. I don't think Paul would agree with that.
1 Thessalonians 1:5,
"For our gospel came not unto you in word ONLY, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake."
10Waiting for his Son from heaven, who came back from the dead, even Jesus, our Saviour from the wrath to come.
DNT
10and to await his Son from the heavens, whom he raised from among the dead, Jesus, our deliverer from the coming wrath.
These alternate translations might be a little clearer, yet I still prefer the KJV rendition.
Blessings!
You might note in all of my comments where I speak about the Nature of Salvation, I always stress that Christ does 100% of the Work in saving those whom He saves and that Salvation is by Grace Alone. There is a reason for this.
We must start with the very clear statement of Romans 3:10-18 that ALL of mankind is Spiritually DEAD and will never exercise "faith in God"or "believe on Christ" in a way that is pleasing to God, despite the fact that we are COMMANDED to do so.
Our Faith and Our Belief (one is the verb the other is the noun) are Works that we do ( 1 Thessalonians 1:3). And the Bible is crystal clear that our works can never save us. So we are not saved by God's Grace and Our Faith. We are saved by God's Grace Alone. Our Faith and Our Belief are the RESULT of our Salvation. They are not a CAUSE nor a BASIS for our Salvation.
Unfortunately, if you go into virtually any church today you will be presented with some form of a Works-Grace gospel. And this is one reason why I believe that 1 Pet 4:17 and other related passages are in play today. And this is very sad to say.
That there has to first be a departure from the faith (an apostasy); I understand this to be the general deterioration within the Church (as we even see now with the preaching of error & the Church, which ought to be seen as the Light & Body of Christ, has become in many places, a haven for Satan to have his way & lead many devout earnest people happily into hell's pit). And after this will be the revelation of the anti-Christ.
Is it at this point (mid-trib) that you believe the world, including the Church will go into the Great Tribulation & come under the anti-Christ? Or, could it be that this is at the very beginning of the Day of Christ, where the Great Tribulation is about to begin but first there will be the "falling away & the revelation of the man of sin"? If, as I believe, the Gt. Tribulation is the tribulation from God (His Wrath & not man's daily tribulations), then I understand Paul stating to the believers there, 'the rapture will happen first at the introduction of the man of sin & then God's Wrath - so don't be misled that that day has already started.'
Before the Wrath (the Great Tribulation) must come the rapture - the anti-Christ is revealed because God has allowed it by removing His Restrainer - and if His Wrath is to be poured out on unbelievers, where is His Church, the one which was not appointed to receive His Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:9)?
Here, the distinction is also made clear: there were the old days when God spoke to HIS people through the mouths of His prophets, but now in "these last days" (i.e. the whole period from Jesus' first Coming & ministering to His people, as the Word of (& from) God made flesh, till He comes again). And when He comes again, it will be for HIS Church (the great assembly of saved Jew & Gentile). When the prophets of old spoke as 'thus & thus saith the LORD', Israel held them in disdain & rejected God's warnings, resulting in them being sent away into exilic chastisement. But in these last days, those who've taken heed & believed in God's Words, even in Jesus His Son, will also be taken away, not to chastisement & His Wrath as disobedient Israel received, but to Himself, as we "wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come" ( 1 Thessalonians 1:10). Thanks again Jesse & every blessing.
d. the revelation of the anti-Christ is restrained ( 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12). Paul's reason for writing this was because the Church was greatly troubled that the Day of the Lord (Christ) had begun. Paul said that that day wouldn't commence until Jesus came for them & raptured them ("our gathering together unto him": v1). The 'restrainer' is the Holy Spirit in God's people, then when He is removed, God's people are removed, for the Holy Spirit was sent to indwell us & work in & through us & for the Gospel's propagation ( John 16:7,8,13).
e. a comparison between an imminent Rapture & Rapture at the Second Coming:
1. Translation of all believers ( 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18) --- No translation at all ( Revelation 19:6-21).
2. Raptured saints return to Heaven ( 1 Thessalonians 4:17; John 14:1-3) --- Raptured saints return to Earth ( 1 Thessalonians 3:13; Revelation 19:14).
3. Any moment, in readiness, without signs ( 1 Corinthians 1:7; Philippians 4:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:6; Titus 2:13; James 5:7-9; Revelation 3:11, 22:7,12,20) --- many signs given of the Great Tribulation which leads into Jesus' coming (so a readiness cannot be expected, as the seven year's count down begins with the anti-Christ).
A Pre-Tribulation Rapture position keeps the Church ready & watching for her Lord's Coming. Any other position can give her the tendency to apathy & carelessness. The Church is told to be watchful, in spite of ridicule, "where is the promise of his coming" ( 2 Peter 3:4). But Christ's coming is held back until the full number are saved (v9) - and then Jesus will come to take His Church Home.
Yes Jimbob, I would be happy to & will try to be succinct. Though I should mention that the meaning of the Great Tribulation, or Day of the Lord, needs to be clarified first. I understand, as you do, that the time of the outpouring of God's Wrath upon the World can be understood as the Great Tribulation, but I see the final week (7 years) of Daniel's seventy weeks, 490 years: Daniel 9:24-27, as the final seven years - years that will change the World's existence & future forever. And by the way, you believe in a post-trib rapture & I understand that as being before God's Wrath poured out. I view this position to be one of mid-trib for the reason I've shared above, but that's not the point here.
Now my Scriptures for a pre-trib (or, pre-Day of the Lord) rapture:
a. the Church is a mystery ( Ephesians 1:1-13), by which believing Jew & Gentile are united into one Body ( Ephesians 2:11-22). Therefore, the Church's translation is not mentioned in the OT that deals with Christ's Second Coming after the Tribulation, & why the Church is promised deliverance before the time of God's Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
b. the 70th week in Daniel, is the preparation of Israel's restoration & regeneration ( Deuteronomy 4:29-30; Jeremiah 30:4-11; Ezekiel 20:22-44; Ezekiel 22:13-22).
c. the Tribulation (including anti-Christ's reign) is not for the Church, but for those who are in the world ( Revelation 3:10; 8:13; 11:10; 13:8,12,14; 17:2,8). The Church is never seen here & will not participate in Israel's time of trouble.
Dear Heavenly Father, we come to You in the name of Jesus today and ask that You will bring Robert through this surgery with success and a full recovery. We as that You keep Robert safe and sound during and after this surgery without complications or any downturns in his recovery. We ask You Father, to relieve any pain Robert has post-surgery and that the problem that led to needing surgery is completely resolved. Amen.