Reading 1st and 2nd Thessalonians , can anyone help with 1st Thessalonians chapter 2 verse 19 ? If when we die we go to heaven and are in the presence of Jesus , what does verse 19 mean ? Why put ' at his coming ' if we are with Jesus in heaven before he returns to earth ? Surely Paul would be in heaven with Jesus the same as us ? So why would Paul's hope ( which is hope for a future event surely ) be : ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming ?
Hi again Fuji. 1 Thessalonians 2:19. This ties in with 1 Thessalonians 1:10, "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come". And then to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10.
When we place all these Scriptures together, considering that Paul was addressing the same matter in the one epistle, we can learn that he is speaking about the coming of the Lord. The believers are not only to wait expectantly for the Lord's Coming, but to be careful in their Christian living until that day - that day when they would be transformed & forever to be with their Lord.
But what happens if Paul (or us) die first, before Jesus comes? Though our bodies lie in the grave (or, not even exist in any substantial form), our spirits do return to God Who gave it ( Ecclesiastes 12:7). And we read of people alive beyond the grave ( Luke 16:19-31; Matthew 17:1-3 as examples). But when Jesus returns in the clouds for us, the dead (believers' bodies) arise first to meet him in the air, & those believers still alive will be caught up (Latin, rapio (rapture); Greek, Harpazo) to join the others in this great moment of joy & fulfilment of our hopes & longings to be with our Savior forever. To this end, Paul (in 1 Thessalonians 2:19), is stating that when Jesus comes, he (Paul) will personally rejoice greatly to see his beloved Thessalonian believers also come into Christ's Presence, as his crown for his labors amongst them. Onto Page 2.
As you know, Paul took the Gospel to Thessalonika on his second 'missionary' journey ( Acts 17:1-10). So, he expected to be with them, or at least be a part of that great gathering, at Christ's coming. If however, Paul died (or even ourselves die) before Jesus returns, then at His Coming, our bodies, with Paul's, would arise from the grave to be forever with the Lord.
But you ask, 'if we die first and are already in heaven with Jesus, why would there be a need for a hope to be with the Lord since we are with Him already?' A good question, where we don't get a definitive answer, except that believers' spirits go to be with the Lord at death & our bodies remain on the Earth awaiting the resurrection. Why this must be so, can only be speculative on our part; whether those departed spirits reconnect with their transformed bodies, for earthly or heavenly life, I can't say for certain; I don't believe the Scriptures confirm that specifically, except whether absent in the body, we are present with the Lord, or, if confined to this Earth, we can await the Lord's return with expectancy & joy.
Hi again Fuji. 1 Thessalonians 2:19. This ties in with 1 Thessalonians 1:10, "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come". And then to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10.
When we place all these Scriptures together, considering that Paul was addressing the same matter in the one epistle, we can learn that he is speaking about the coming of the Lord. The believers are not only to wait expectantly for the Lord's Coming, but to be careful in their Christian living until that day - that day when they would be transformed & forever to be with their Lord.
But what happens if Paul (or us) die first, before Jesus comes? Though our bodies lie in the grave (or, not even exist in any substantial form), our spirits do return to God Who gave it ( Ecclesiastes 12:7). And we read of people alive beyond the grave ( Luke 16:19-31; Matthew 17:1-3 as examples). But when Jesus returns in the clouds for us, the dead (believers' bodies) arise first to meet him in the air, & those believers still alive will be caught up (Latin, rapio (rapture); Greek, Harpazo) to join the others in this great moment of joy & fulfilment of our hopes & longings to be with our Savior forever. To this end, Paul (in 1 Thessalonians 2:19), is stating that when Jesus comes, he (Paul) will personally rejoice greatly to see his beloved Thessalonian believers also come into Christ's Presence, as his crown for his labors amongst them. Onto Page 2.
As you know, Paul took the Gospel to Thessalonika on his second 'missionary' journey ( Acts 17:1-10). So, he expected to be with them, or at least be a part of that great gathering, at Christ's coming. If however, Paul died (or even ourselves die) before Jesus returns, then at His Coming, our bodies, with Paul's, would arise from the grave to be forever with the Lord.
But you ask, 'if we die first and are already in heaven with Jesus, why would there be a need for a hope to be with the Lord since we are with Him already?' A good question, where we don't get a definitive answer, except that believers' spirits go to be with the Lord at death & our bodies remain on the Earth awaiting the resurrection. Why this must be so, can only be speculative on our part; whether those departed spirits reconnect with their transformed bodies, for earthly or heavenly life, I can't say for certain; I don't believe the Scriptures confirm that specifically, except whether absent in the body, we are present with the Lord, or, if confined to this Earth, we can await the Lord's return with expectancy & joy.
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