I assume you mean Jehovah's Witnesses when you said JW's, but I assure you I am not. I understand many believe in the rapture of the Church, but I do not. I can't say that it's wrong; that would just lead to debate. We can share our understanding in hopes of inspiring each other to seek the truth.
Revelation is filled with images and visions given to John. In my understanding, if we look at Revelation 7, where people from the tribes of Israel and all nations that cannot be numbered are described, verses 14-17 refer to a time after everything is over, when God wipes away all our tears.
This is similar to what we see in Matthew 17 when Jesus took Peter, James, and John up on the mountain, where they saw Jesus' transfiguration. Jesus said it was a vision in verse 9. My understanding is that it was a vision because if Moses and Elijah were really there, Jesus would not be called the Firstfruits of those who slept, as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:20.
Looking at 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 it discusses the Lord's coming and the first resurrection. Paul also touches on this in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. This coming is announced with a shout, the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God, as seen in Revelation 11.
In my view, in none of the verses regarding Jesus' second coming does it say He will carry the saints of the first resurrection back to heaven. My understanding is that all who are Christ's, when He returns, will be gathered to meet Him as He descends to earth, as described in Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Corinthians 15:52, at the last trump, and Revelation 11:15-18. We will reign with Him on earth, Revelation 5:10.
There are only two resurrections of the dead in Scripture: the first, in Revelation 20:4-6, and the second, in Revelation 20:11-15. My understanding is that Jesus does not return to heaven after He comes back; if He does, that would mean three resurrections.
The Bible generally discourages marking the body, such as tattoos or self-inflicted cuts, particularly in the Old Testament, as seen in Leviticus 19:28, which forbids cutting the flesh for the dead or making marks on oneself. While the New Testament does not directly address tattoos, it emphasizes that believers' bodies belong to God and should honor Him. 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 declares that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and, having been purchased by Christ, should glorify God. Romans 12:1 calls believers to present their bodies as living sacrifices, holy and acceptable to God. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 reinforces that defiling the body, God's temple, is a serious offense. Other passages, like Philippians 1:20, 2 Corinthians 7:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:4, urge believers to pursue holiness, sanctification, and honor in their physical lives. Together, these scriptures highlight that while the Old Testament prohibits certain bodily markings, the overarching biblical principle for all believers is to treat the body as God's dwelling and use it to glorify Him in every way.
Thanks Meek and seek for your reply. I agree that the point of the apostle's discussion on these misunderstandings by the Church (in both his letters to the Church there) is about the deceased believers missing out on the resurrection ( 1 Thessalonians 4:13), and that the Day of Christ had come ( 2 Thessalonians 2:1,2).
In the first passage I quoted, Paul's teaching was that the spirits of the deceased believers were already in Heaven and that at His Coming, Jesus would bring them with Him and their bodies buried in the earth would join with their spirits. So the believers should be assured that God had not forgotten those who were in their graves at His Coming, since they were very much alive with Him & together would join with those living believers on Earth. At least, that is how I read that passage.
Then in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, where the believers believed that the Day of Christ had already come & somehow had missed that event, or maybe it was all a lie. Paul assures them that the Day of Christ (or when Christ appears) & "our gathering together unto him" (i.e. the Rapture of Paul's first letter) will not happen until there is a great 'falling away & revealing of the man of sin'.
And then Paul goes on to elaborate on this 'man of sin', the anti-Christ who presents himself as God & demands worship. But he hasn't appeared on the scene as yet because God has set a restrainer to prevent him coming to power. But when that restrainer is removed, then the beginning of great Tribulation begins, primarily to Israel I suspect (according to Jesus' teachings in the Gospels). But you ask, "who is taken away? The anti Christ". Onto Page 2.
I agree, when Jesus returns, it will not be a secret, as all the Scriptures proclaim, it will be with the sound of the trumpet, the last trumpet, 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 11:15. As you said, every eye shall see Him coming in the clouds, Revelation 1:7, Revelation 19:11-16.
The resurrection of the righteous, which is the first resurrection, will happen at Christ's return, Revelation 19:11-16, Revelation 20:4-6. Scripture does not say Jesus goes back to heaven. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Paul is comforting them that those who are asleep/dead in Christ would not be left out of the return of Christ and the resurrection. Nowhere in these verses does it say we are taken to heaven.
If we read and study Scriptures with preconceived assumptions, it fogs the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is about the return of Jesus and our gathering together unto Him on earth, at His coming. It says do not let man deceive you because Jesus will not return until two things happen. The falling away/apostasy, and the man of sin is revealed.
Revelation 19:20 is where the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. In Revelation 17:14, they are the ones in the first resurrection who are in the battle of Armageddon with Jesus, and in Revelation 20:4 are the ones in the first resurrection who are being judged at the judgment seat of Christ, here on earth.
How much time does Scripture give the beast? In Revelation 13, the beast, whom people call the antichrist, from the time he rises, he is only given 3.5 years, not 7 years, Revelation 13:5. This is after the war in heaven where Michael and his angels overcome and cast Satan and his angels down to earth, this is when the restraints are lifted, not the removal of the Church.
The beast is only given 42 months, which is 3.5 years, to make war against the saints and to overcome them, Revelation 13:7. If the church is removed, whom will he make war against? The resurrection of the dead is divided into two:
The resurrection of the righteous, which is the first resurrection and will happen at Christ's return, Revelation 19:11-16, Revelation 20:4-6.
Resurrection for the rest of the dead, which is the second resurrection, and will happen after the 1000 years of Christ's reign, Revelation 20:7-15.
The ones in the first resurrection will reign with Christ, where, Daniel 7:27, 2 Timothy 2:12Revelation 20:6, Revelation 5:9-10. When Jesus returns, He does not go back to heaven.
We see in Revelation 20:4 thrones, and judgment was given to those in the first resurrection. This is on earth, and we see those who were beheaded and did not take the mark or worship the beast, and these lived and reigned with Christ on earth for the 1000 years.
last trumpet is the seventh trumpet, the same trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Jesus is coming to establish His kingdom on this earth.
It should be understood that the Bible clearly states that there are two comings of Jesus.
He came to die for the sins of mankind: this has been fulfilled.
Second Coming: coming to establish the kingdom of God/heaven. This is yet to happen. The resurrection of the righteous dead only happens at the second coming of Christ.
The seventh trumpet, the last trumpet, announces the second coming of Christ to establish His Kingdom on this Earth. We see this in Revelation 11:15-18, which says, "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
It also says the righteous, both dead and alive, are judged and rewarded, and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. We see this after the battle of Armageddon, Revelation 20:4.
In 1 Thessalonians 4:17, the word meet is the Greek word apantseis, which is found three times in the New Testament. It means a decisive going out to greet an arriving person of importance, honoring and welcoming them back. We will be meeting Jesus in the air, welcoming Him back to set up the kingdom, not going to heaven.
I could go on, but I hope this is enough to show my understanding. I do thank you for your time and discussion. We must keep our eyes and ears open so that we may see and hear the truth. If we have preconceived ideas, it gives us eyes to see, and see not, and ears to hear, and hear not. We, as the body of Christ, should inspire each other to pray and study God's word for the truth.
I understand many believe in the rapture, some say pre, mid, or post. In all three views, we are taken to heaven. I have not found any Scripture that explicitly states we are taken to heaven; it is an assumption, and it must be read where it is not written. I don't see the bride mentioned in the rapture doctrine; that's another discussion.
I see the coming of Jesus not as a secret event, but as one the world will witness. This is supported by Scripture: Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, and Revelation 19:11-16. This event occurs after the seventh angel sounds the last trumpet, Revelation 11:15. Then, we see the angel summoning the birds for the battle of Armageddon.
The ones in the first resurrection, Revelation 20:4-6, will be with Jesus during the battle, Revelation 17:12-14. Afterward, we observe the judgment of those in the first resurrection, Revelation 20:4.
A thought, over the past nearly 2000 years, believers in Christ, the body of Christ, the Church have faced beheading, burning at the stake, being placed on poles soaked in oil, lit as lamps along roads, among other horrible deaths. Why would the last of the Church be spared? We have been told we will face much tribulation, and if we endure, Matthew 24:9-13. The Great Tribulation and the wrath of God are not the same.
I hope you don't mind me asking just a few questions. I am trying to follow. I understand, as you have presented, the Church is raptured, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, and taken to heaven. You say, "Rightly dividing the scriptures and letting scripture interpret scripture". Where in these Scriptures does it say we are taken to heaven?
You say the rapture is before the seals, trumpets, and bowls; these three are the wrath of God. How does that agree with 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52? Do you see the rapture as secret?
You say that after the rapture, the antichrist rises, and the 7-year tribulation starts, where only those not in the body of Christ and Israelites are left. How does that agree with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, where Paul is comforting them not to worry that the coming of the Lord will not happen, before there is a falling away/apostasy, and the man of sin is revealed?
Will the Church/the body of Christ be in heaven or on earth during the 1000 years?
Is the great tribulation and the wrath of God the same thing?
A state of readiness: In light of the Rapture and His soon return
We are while on this earth subject to trials. I have gone into detail as to God chastising His own; and of course part of the testing of our faith is how we react with persecution and suffering. Remember the verse Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. IF we are walking in the Spirit He gives us strength and our souls are given peace as well. Our souls are subject to spiritual attacks so we need to be on guard. Our confidence is in Him; and His promises to save us from this world with eventual physical removal. This is also something the whole body of Christ can look forward to. We are therefore to encourage one another with these words ( 1 THessalonians 4:18) at the end of a chapter discussing the Rapture. How often we see this is unknown; I surely haven't heard much about it short of being pesky and constantly prompting a response.
When our lives are relatively comfortable we don't sense that we want to get out of here; but surely others in the fires of open persecution feel differently.
With all this obsession on the Rapture I don't honestly know how to feel. If I were a betting man I would say that most likely this month of September will come and go and the datesetters will for the most part chill out until next year and come up with some other prediction. No wonder the Philadelphia church is said to continue faithfully with little strength ( Revelation 3:8). These are the ones going through the open door at the Rapture and it seems the only church promised in general to make it.
It is better to focus on our strength in the Body of Christ as we are already seated in heavenly places; so if we are martyred or die before He comes to be absent from the body is present with the Lord ( 2 Cor. 5:8).
It seems He is coming soon but it is His decision.
Thinking it was Peter's angel as his spirit to me would be a stretch; it would be like seeing a ghost, our souls or spirits don't move around after we die. Angels are messengers; to me, they may have thought it was someone delivering a message. They knew he was in prison.
If we look at Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, the Earth is round. When Jesus returns, there will be saints all over it. The angels Jesus sent to gather us, the air where we meet Jesus, is the Greek word 'aer,' meaning the air we breathe.
The angels will gather all the saints from across the earth to meet and escort Jesus as He descends to earth as King. This aligns with 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and Jude 1:14-15.
When Satan was cast out of heaven down to earth, his angels were cast down with him. We see many verses portraying angels as an army, like in 2 Kings 3:17 and Isaiah 37:36.
The Bible doesn't say this explicitly, but with all the fallen angels cast down here, I believe it will take an army of angels, along with the resurrected saints, to cleanse this world of evil. After the angels go back to heaven.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-10. Agreed, 2 Peter 3:10 speaks of the Day of the Lord coming unexpectedly with the major upheaval of the heavens and Earth, as does Paul, who possibly infers that there is a wider time frame or meaning regarding that Day ( 1 Corinthians 5:5 & 2 Corinthians 1:14). In any case, it involves all things associated with Jesus' Day of appearing. So here in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10, Paul iterates that that Day will come suddenly, thus it being a useless exercise to attempt placing it in a time frame, but as the Church is the children of God living in the light and not as those who live in darkness, that Day would not suddenly come upon them. Rather they should be comforted and fully clothed with the Spirit because God has not appointed them to His wrath (of verse 3) but to be saved from this through the Lord Jesus' (v9). If this saving from God's Wrath is to refer to His Wrath against man's sins, then there appears no reason for mentioning this in this context. His Wrath here is anger towards unbelievers at that time who will face His "sudden destruction". And to give further support to this meaning, we can look at 1 Thessalonians 1:10, Paul stating that the Church was "to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come".
Yes, Matthew chap 24 is about Jesus' Second Coming and particularly Matthew 24:29-31, that the powers of the heavens will be shaken, Jesus' appearing in the skies, the tribes of the earth mourning, and the gathering together of his Elect from all over the world. Some would assume that not only this scene is connected with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51,52, but also that the Elect referred to are all those in Christ. To Page 3.
Apologies GiGi, have only now been able to devote some time to respond to you.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10. I would agree that if we take the 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 on its own, then there may be room for other interpretations. But Paul has devoted a part of this epistle to answer the believers' question (and fear) that those believers who died before Jesus came would not share in His Kingdom (v13). That they too will be resurrected by God as certain as God had resurrected His Son (v14). This verse may also imply that the spirits of deceased believers will come with Jesus, as God sends them with His Son. Still on the matter of those who have died before Jesus comes, the apostle states (as given him directly from the Lord), that the dead will rise first, before the living saints: that's how important this resurrection is; that when Jesus comes, the priority is to those who have died and raised to life, and then He will lift the living unto Himself, so all believers in their new bodies will rise into the sky to meet their Savior, to ever remain with Him (vv15-17).
How is all this important & pertinent to our discussions? I shared the above for one reason: that we should see that what Paul taught here was not just some nice comforting reassuring words to the distressed perplexed Church, but to show that this was a special act of God to extract His people from what He would begin to do to the unbelieving world. And of course, this 'extraction/rapture' is singularly different from what is given us when the Lord Jesus returns to overpower/destroy God's enemies & commence His 1000 year reign on Earth, in Jerusalem. We simply cannot fit this removal of the saints into the sky with Jesus in any other part of the teaching of Jesus' second coming. To Page 2.
Hi GiGi. In your post to bro. S. Spencer you asked concerning pre-tribulation Rapture, "If you or any other dispensationalist can give me Scriptural verses that explicitly, plainly, and directly say that Jesus will return twice, once for His church, and once more at the consummation of the age, I would appreciate that." Just starting a new thread on this as the other has become cumbersome.
I'd like to share with you some Scriptures that show to me that the Rapture of the Church is something distinct from Jesus' second Coming and it is the next thing to occur for Christ's Church. However, you asked for verses that explicitly communicate this, but as you have also found, there is no verse(s) that we know of that says something like, 'the following information is given to you in clear chronological order depicting the imminent return of Jesus Christ for His Church and then His coming again in judgement'. Not dissimilar to the old Trinity debate, where one asks to be convinced by showing him a verse where the Trinity is mentioned in the Bible. As we learn of the Triune God from many Scriptures that show His full revealed Nature without the word Trinity mentioned, so too we must bring in all the references that lead us to the belief of Christ's next appearance to the world.
For me, understanding this teaching must come, not from Darby or anyone else, but from the Word itself, from verses which I believe give support to those familiar passages found in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (presenting a separate appearing of Christ for the Church as opposed to His second Coming to battle & then reign), and 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (the mystery of the dead & living saints raised to an incorruptible state and very unlike Christ's second Coming to war and to reign, where this does not occur). Onto Page 2.
I see you mentioned 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 along with 2 Peter 3:10-15.
Peter is talking about the day of the Lord.
He says "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.
I agree what you said in an earlier post "you must compare scripture with scripture!
I respect that! so go and compare all the scripture describing the day of the Lord and show me DEFINITIVELY where there is a removal of saints.
We are looking for "single one verse or scripture that definitively proves each viewpoint.
There is a lot to be said but that's all I have on this at this time until I discourse with Gigi and give my reasoning of scripture and get an understanding on where and how she comes up with her viewpoints.
May I ask, how do you view yourself when it comes to interpreting the Bible?
There certainly will be a rapture and resurrection of true believers on the Last Day when Christ returns on the clouds of glory to wrap up his judgment and salvation program, destroy this sin-cursed earth, and create New Heavens and New Earth.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 "13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
2 Peter 3:10-15 "10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;"
You have to compare scripture with scripture" throughout the WHOLE Bible using proper hermeneutics.
You'll get definitive answers.
You can't study past writings to settle theology or doctrine disputes.
I've read some of Gigi's questions and they're answered in most the scriptures!
When we build a doctrine, there's 2 ways to do it.
1) We look for what's definitive,
2) We have to use proper hermeneutics and interpret scripture.
When you ask for a definitive answer to a doctrine and seek to find it in one scripture, you leave off from studying and interpreting scripture.
You can't ignore the whole counsel of God.
You cannot hang everything on one scripture.
If you use scripture in its proper context and collaborate the whole counsel of God it gives a definitive answer. Of course hermeneutics is important.
The issue I have is when people set aside the scripture and wants to deal with theology or doctrine without giving their own ( Scriptural ) reasons for their rebuttal.
(THEIR OWN SCRIPTURAL REBUTTAL!)
That's the only way I see to bridge the disconnect.
I need to see Gigi's present a Scriptural definitive reasons she declines these questionable doctrines.
For instance, She says she doesn't see any Scriptural proof of the rapture in the Bible.
You find it here in 1 Thessalonians 4:17
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be "CAUGHT UP" together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. ( It's also found in other places)
The Latin word "rapturo," which translates to the Greek "harpazo," meaning "caught up.
It means to snatch away!
Whether it's pre-trib or post-trib. there is a definite removal of saints according to that verse.
If not what does it mean?
You shouldn't reject ones interpretation without giving your own!
What does it mean and provide Scriptural proof of your own if you don't accept the dispensationalist interpretations.
The New Testament reveals that the Church, the Body of Christ, has a heavenly calling and destiny, distinct from Israel's earthly kingdom hope. While it doesn't say in one verse, "the Church is going to heaven," Paul's epistles clearly show that our citizenship, position, and eternal home are in heaven.
In Philippians 3:20, Paul says, "For our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour." This points directly to the believer's true home being heavenly, not earthly. Similarly, Colossians 3:1-2 tells believers to seek those things which are above, because Christ, who is our life, is there. Our focus is heavenly because that is where our eternal life and inheritance are secured.
Ephesians 2:6 explains that we are already spiritually "seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus," meaning our position in Christ is established in heaven, even though we currently live on earth. This aligns with 2 Corinthians 5:1, which promises that if our earthly body is dissolved, "we have a building of God eternal in the heavens." The believer looks forward to being clothed with a glorified, heavenly body.
At the rapture, described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, the Church will be "caught up... to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Since Christ is currently in heaven, and we will be forever with Him, this implies a heavenly destiny for the Church.
These scriptures collectively show that the Church is not promised a place in Israel's earthly kingdom, but rather has a heavenly inheritance, being part of a new creation in Christ. Paul's unique revelation of the mystery ( Eph. 3:1-11) includes this distinction. The Church is not waiting for a kingdom to come to earth, but for Christ to take us to where He is-in heaven.
Still it's not possible to mix the kingdom message meant for the 12 Tribes of Israel with the mystery message to the body of Christ the Church.
I agree that the Church, the Body of Christ, is not the bride; I do not agree that the bride metaphor is rooted in prophecy and tied to Israel. The New Jerusalem is the bride that is dressed in fine linen, pure and white, for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints; Revelation 19:6-8. This is the city that Abraham looked for, Hebrews 11:8-10.
This bride, the New Jerusalem, will not descend until everything is fulfilled and all is made new. Revelation 21:1-3. Then, the marriage and the feast will mark the beginning of our eternity on the new earth with God and Jesus.
Revelation 19:7-9: Let us be glad, rejoice, and honor Him: for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb." And he saith unto me, "These are the true sayings of God."
I also disagree with the teaching of the catching away or the rapture as being carried to heaven. You mention 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, but where does it say we are taken to heaven? This passage describes Jesus returning to earth at the last trump, Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, and Revelation 19:11-16.
The Church, the Body of Christ, is distinct from the Bride of Christ-a truth revealed uniquely through the Apostle Paul under the dispensation of grace. While traditional teaching often blends Israel's prophetic promises with the Church's heavenly calling, a right division ( 2 Timothy 2:15) reveals that believers today, saved by grace through faith alone ( Ephesians 2:8-9), are part of a new creation: the Body of Christ ( 1 Corinthians 12:12-13; Romans 12:5).
Paul never refers to the Church as the "Bride of Christ." Instead, he consistently identifies the Church as a body in which Christ is the Head ( Ephesians 1:22-23; Colossians 1:18). This organism is spiritual, made up of both Jew and Gentile, reconciled into one new man ( Ephesians 2:15-16). This unity was a "mystery" kept hidden from ages past ( Colossians 1:26; Ephesians 3:1-6), never prophesied or associated with Israel's covenantal promises.
In contrast, the bride metaphor is rooted in prophecy and tied to Israel. Revelation 21:9-10 calls the New Jerusalem "the bride, the Lamb's wife," a city prepared for redeemed Israel ( Isaiah 62:4-5; Hosea 2:19-20). John the Baptist called himself a "friend of the bridegroom" ( John 3:29), which places him outside the bride. Paul, while using marriage as a metaphor in Ephesians 5, still emphasizes the Body-not a bride-saying, "We are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones" ( Ephesians 5:30). The analogy teaches love and unity, not identity.
Confusing the Bride with the Body blends Israel's earthly hope with the Church's heavenly calling ( Philippians 3:20). We are not awaiting a wedding ceremony, but rather a catching away ( 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) to appear with Christ in glory. As members of His Body, we are already spiritually one with Him ( 1 Corinthians 6:17). Understanding this distinction preserves the truth of God's separate programs for Israel and the Church.
A study of death and the proper approach to this subject.
Death is an enemy ( 1 Corinthians 15:26); but God aso states that He is the God of the living not the dead ( Matthew 22:32).
We read in 1 Corinthians 15:55-57
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
It may seem like overstating the obvious here; but death for a believer; TRULY BORN AGAIN is a victory while for the unsaved is anything but. It may be true at funerals that relatives claim that their loved one is with the Lord; but for someone who is clearly saved should have a more demonstrative rejoicing in that regard than the world in their feigned attempt to convince everyone of the same fact when it is likely the person is suffering in hades.
I state this after seeing a reaction at a funeral for someone in our church the other week; apparently someone there was very uncomfortable hearing scriptures related to where we go as a believer after death. This is probably why many dumb down what should in reality be an atmosphere of joy. I am not saying that grief shouldn't occur but as Paul stated in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
(Whew thought I lost all this work)...
All this discussion at the funeral led to this particular concept of sleep; but our Pastor does NOT believe in "soul sleep". We certainly rest from our works and for a while in His presence ( Rev. 6:11)
Paul is the only apostle who gives detailed revelation about the rapture-the catching away of the Body of Christ-a doctrine unique to his epistles and part of the "mystery" revealed to him by the risen Christ ( Romans 16:25; Ephesians 3:1-9; 1 Corinthians 15:51). Here are the key passages and what Paul says:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 - The Classic Rapture Passage
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout... and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air..."
(vv. 16-17, KJV)
Paul describes:
A resurrection of dead believers.
A snatching away (Greek: harpazo, Latin: rapturo) of the living believers.
A meeting in the air-not Christ coming to Earth (contrast with Second Coming).
A comforting hope unique to the Body of Christ (v. 18).
1 Corinthians 15:51-53 - A Mystery Revealed
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed... in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye"
Paul explains:
This was previously hidden-a mystery not found in prophecy.
There will be a transformation of living saints.
The event is instantaneous and involves receiving glorified bodies.
Philippians 3:20-21 - Our Heavenly Hope
"For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour... Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body"
Paul emphasizes:
Our hope is not earthly (kingdom), but heavenly.
Christ will give believers a glorified body like His own.
Summary:
Paul teaches that the rapture is a mystery revealed only to him for the Body of Christ. It is a pre-judgment event ( 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9), sudden, and distinct from Christ's return to Earth in judgment (as in Matthew 24 or Revelation). This catching away is the blessed hope ( Titus 2:13) for those saved by grace through faith apart from the Law ( Romans 11:6; Ephesians 2:8-9).
The Bible speaks for itself, no dictionary or man's concordance needed.
The apostle Paul is uniquely identified in Scripture as the chosen vessel through whom God revealed the mystery of the Body of Christ. In Romans 11:13, Paul declares, "I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office." Unlike the Twelve Apostles, who were sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel ( Matthew 10:5-6), Paul was sent by the risen, glorified Christ from heaven ( Acts 9:15; Galatians 1:11-12) to proclaim a new message-not the Gospel of the Kingdom, but the Gospel of the Grace of God ( Acts 20:24). Paul alone speaks of the "Church which is His Body" ( Ephesians 1:22-23), a new creation made up of both Jew and Gentile, united by faith and baptized by the Holy Spirit into one Body ( 1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 2:14-16).
The Body of Christ was a mystery "kept secret since the world began" ( Romans 16:25) and not revealed until Paul. He was given this revelation by Christ directly ( Ephesians 3:1-9; Colossians 1:24-27) and is the only apostle who teaches its doctrines-such as salvation by grace through faith without works ( Ephesians 2:8-9), the heavenly position of believers ( Colossians 3:1-4), and the rapture of the Church ( 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). Paul calls himself the "wise masterbuilder" who laid the foundation for this present dispensation of grace ( 1 Corinthians 3:10). The other apostles, including Peter, recognized Paul's distinct apostleship and agreed to confine their ministry to the circumcision, while Paul went to the Gentiles ( Galatians 2:7-9).
No other apostle is identified in Scripture as the apostle of the Body of Christ. Only Paul received the full revelation of the mystery, the doctrines, and the heavenly calling of the Church. Therefore, Paul stands alone as the God-appointed apostle to the Body of Christ.
Peter did not preach the mystery that Paul preached because the mystery was not revealed until God gave it specifically to Paul. This is a foundational point in Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, which teaches that there is a clear distinction between Peter's message to Israel and Paul's message to the Gentile-dominated Body of Christ.
The Mystery Was Hidden Until Paul
Paul clearly states that the "mystery" was kept secret since the world began and was first revealed to him:
Romans 16:25 - "...according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began."
Ephesians 3:1-9 - Paul says "by revelation he made known unto me the mystery", and that it "was not made known unto the sons of men" in previous ages.
Colossians 1:25-26 - Paul was made a minister "to fulfill the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest."
This means Peter could not have preached what he did not yet know.
Peter Preached to Israel, Not the Body of Christ
Peter's ministry was to the Jews (the circumcision):
Galatians 2:7-9 - Paul and Peter agreed that Peter would go to the circumcision (Israel), and Paul to the uncircumcision (Gentiles).
In Acts 2 and 3, Peter preached Jesus as Israel's Messiah, urging Israel to repent so that God could send Jesus back and restore the kingdom.
Peter's message focused on prophecy being fulfilled-not a mystery being revealed.
The Mystery Involves the Church, the Body of Christ
The "mystery" revealed to Paul involves:
Jew and Gentile in one Body ( Ephesians 3:6)
Salvation by grace without the law ( Galatians 2:16, Romans 3:28)
A heavenly position in Christ ( Ephesians 2:6)
The rapture of the Body ( 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
These truths are not found in Peter's early preaching in the book of Acts.
Regarding the return of Jesus, I only see in Scripture that He returns once. As seen in 1 Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, Luke 21:25-28, John 14:3, Acts 1:11, 1 Corinthians 15:51-55, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Hebrews 9:28, Revelation 1:7, Revelation 6:12-17, Revelation 19:11-21, through Revelation 20:1-6, is the same event when Jesus returns, and it occurs after the tribulation of the beast. My understanding is that there is only one Day of the Lord, and that is when Jesus returns.
Regarding the Messiah, I have never asked a Jew about their understanding of it. What I have previously read about Jewish faith is that one day a charismatic Jewish leader, the anointed of God, a man with the characteristics of God, a direct descendant of the Davidic line, will gather Jews from around the world, and bring them back to the Land of Israel and restore the kingdom ridding them of all oppressors.
That was what they were looking for during the time Jesus was here during His 3.5-year ministry, a human conqueror. The disciples were looking for Him to set up the kingdom; they even asked Him after He was resurrected, Acts 1:6-7. They were looking for what we see will happen in the millennium when Jesus returns to earth.
It was mainly the leaders of Jerusalem who did not see or did not hear, which caused blindness in part to happen to Israel, who rejected Jesus; many accepted Jesus as the Messiah while He was here. The leaders of Jerusalem played a prominent role in turning the crowds against Jesus, and it was the nation of Israel as a whole that rejected Him. And today, most Jews do not believe the Messiah has come.
I know we may not agree, but I hope I answered your question.
This subject has been discussed before, and I don't reply to cause debate, but in my heart, I feel it is deception that people may be looking for something that is not coming. In Matthew 24, Jesus said, "Take heed that no man deceive you." I would like to point out a few things that may be considered for study in pursuit of the truth. The Rapture doctrine, where the Church is taken to heaven before the second coming of Jesus, does it fit scripture? If Daniel 9:25-27 has been fulfilled, how does that affect the Rapture doctrine?
Each one of us is accountable- Romans 14:12.
There are two resurrections: the first in Revelation 19:11-21 through Revelation 20:1-5. This aligns with what Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-58.
When Jesus returns, it will be with the armies of heaven in Revelation 19, and in Matthew 24, Jesus sends His angels to gather His elect. We see in Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, and Luke 21:25-28.
When Jesus returns, the Battle of Armageddon occurs, Revelation 16:13-16, Ezekiel 39:11-22, Revelation 19:17-19, and the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire, Revelation 19:20-21. Satan is imprisoned in the bottomless pit, Revelation 20:1-3, and judgment occurs for those in the first resurrection on earth, Revelation 20:4, not in heaven, then the 1000 years, Revelation 20:5-6.
I do not know of any Bible verses that agree with the rapture of the Church?
There are different theological approaches to the book of Revelation, and I'll try and point out some to you as we go through this. But Chapter 4 Verse 1 is the verse that's used by those who believe that the believers will be raptured prior to the Tribulation Period, because number 1, the door had been opened, and number two, a trumpet was talking to him.
It's the same as Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4:13, I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that you sorrow not, as others which have no hope. He had just said in this chapter that the trump of God would sound. It would be a great shout, and the trump of God would sound. And so here is the trumpet talking to John saying come up here.
And those who hold the Pre-Trib. position see that as equivalent to the rapture of the church that is happening. And from now on, John will see everything from heaven, and the church will no longer be on the earth, but the multitudes will be in heaven.
And many believe that's an indication, among other scriptures, especially 1 Thessalonians Chapter 5 where it gives us the Tribulation Period, and he says this is for the wrath of God, and we have not been chosen for the wrath of God.
Trust and dependence on the Son of God, believing in His sacrifice on the cross and His resurrection, Romans 5:8-10. Titus 1:2 states that God has promised eternal life to us from before creation, but it is our future hope in Jesus through faith, as seen in Romans 1:16. This hope has been established for us in Jesus before time; this hope is eternal life. It is not seen or enjoyed now; that is not hope, Romans 8:24-25.
Is Jesus praying for just the disciples or also future believers? This was determined before the foundation of the world, as we see in John 14:3, and Paul confirms it in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18. We will see the glory of Christ that the Father has given Him when He returns to establish the kingdom.
Ephesians 1:4 tells us that God chose us in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world, and salvation was part of God's plan. The word " chose, " from the Greek word eklego, means to pick out for oneself, to choose, elect, or select. God's plan and purpose for humanity was for us to have eternal life in Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:19-20 explains that Jesus, through His obedience to the Father and His sinless life as a lamb without blemish and spot, shed His blood for us. This was foreordained before the foundation of the world. The word " foreordained " is derived from the Greek word proginosko, meaning to know beforehand, representing the foreknowledge of God, a plan manifested in the last times for us. Various verses refer to the foundation of the world, meaning from the creation of the earth and humanity.
Matthew 25:34 speaks of the glory in God's plan, in the mind of God, encompassing all things from beginning to end, something we as humans cannot fully comprehend. We see the culmination of this verse in Revelation 20:11-15.
Hi Jingledue. Since this Site has temporarily altered how responses to questions are viewed, I'll quote a part of your question so you know that this is directed to it. "As a Christian, is it wrong to still consider myself a sinner saved by grace?"
No, it is not wrong to believe that your are "a sinner saved by grace", even though this phrase is not used in the Bible. As you know, in the Church today we use phrases or words to describe a Truth that is evident in the Bible but not the actual words used. Ephesians 2:8,9 is the Scripture that reflects the phrase "a sinner saved by grace". We could say the same about the Triune Nature of God (otherwise, referred to as the Trinity): where there are many verses that describe this profound Nature yet not using that word, Trinity (e.g. Matthew 28:19; John 17:3-5; 1 John 1:1-3; etc.). We use the word 'Rapture', which is derived from the Latin form from the Greek, which means 'to seize or to snatch' (e.g. 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17). So, there's nothing wrong with using words or phrases not found in the Bible, as long as it correctly & clearly expresses a biblical Truth. But if someone is against using such words or phrases, then I would be equally comfortable in using the direct biblical quotations in lieu.
But the main point of Ephesians 2:8,9 is that our salvation is all of God's Grace & Mercy afforded us - nothing we have done or ever can do could replace or even complement God's Work for us and in us. It is truly God's Gift to us - and a gift cannot be received in exchange for something else, or else it's no longer a gift.
This spirit is not the person, nor is it immortal or eternal, nor does it have a conscious existence when the person dies. Those of us who have the Holy Spirit in us, Romans 8:11, But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you, this is the Spirit of God, for those in Jesus Christ, this happens at resurrection.
In Psalms 16:7 David said the LORD has given him counsel; this is his spirit communicating with God, as Paul calls it in 2 Corinthians 4:16 the inward man. Peter describes it as the hidden man of the heart, 1 Peter 3:4. When God communicates with us, it is not with our mind; it's a Spirit-to-spirit communication.
God gives the human a spirit, some believe it is at conception, Zechariah 12:1, Isaiah 12:5. We know He takes it back at the time of death, Ecclesiastes 12:7. Psalm 104:29, thou takest away their breath, they die, the Hebrew word for breath is ruach, it also means spirit. James 2:26, the body without the spirit is dead. All consciousness ends when we die. Psalm 6:5, Job 14:12-14, Job 17:13-16. Psalm 115:17. Ecclesiastes 9:5-10. We sleep in death until resurrection day, the day of redemption. 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15.
The Bible tells us a spirit can be good, bad, or broken, Psalm 34:18, God cares for us and wants to help mend our brokenness, Isaiah 41:10. When we do not have rule over our spirit, we can go so bad that God turns one over to a reprobate mind as we see in Romans 1:18-32, the door is shut. With God's Spirit, the Holy Spirit, we in our spirit grow in our faith and have comfort in His presence.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 - Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
More literally, then afterwards in sequence, we which are alive and are remaining shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, for a meeting of the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The phrase "caught up together" is the Greek word HARPADZO which means to snatch up by force. It's used for a bird, like an owl that will swoop down and snatch up a mouse. And it's used for the Lord coming and snatching up His people. In fact, it's the same word in Latin (RAPTUS), which is where we get rapture from. It comes from the Latin Vulgate.
Some say that there is no rapture because there's no such word in the bible. Obviously, they don't understand that RAPTUS is the Latin word for the Greek word HARPADZO which means to snatch away or seize by force.
So, we which are alive and remain will be caught up together with them. They come up out of the grave first, and we get caught up with them to where when we get to the Lord, we get there at the same time. It will be simultaneous, though their action starts first, which is very understandable because they're underground and we're above ground.
1 Thessalonians 4:18 - Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
The word comfort is the word encouragement. He's showing them the procedure. He says don't worry about those who have died before you because this is what's going to happen. They will come back with the Lord in spirit, their bodies will be raised up first. And then we which live and remain will be caught up together. Our spirit is still in our body. By the time we all reach into the presence of the Lord in the clouds, our bodies will be changed into a spiritual body and we will forever be with Him.
I assume you mean Jehovah's Witnesses when you said JW's, but I assure you I am not. I understand many believe in the rapture of the Church, but I do not. I can't say that it's wrong; that would just lead to debate. We can share our understanding in hopes of inspiring each other to seek the truth.
Revelation is filled with images and visions given to John. In my understanding, if we look at Revelation 7, where people from the tribes of Israel and all nations that cannot be numbered are described, verses 14-17 refer to a time after everything is over, when God wipes away all our tears.
This is similar to what we see in Matthew 17 when Jesus took Peter, James, and John up on the mountain, where they saw Jesus' transfiguration. Jesus said it was a vision in verse 9. My understanding is that it was a vision because if Moses and Elijah were really there, Jesus would not be called the Firstfruits of those who slept, as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:20.
Looking at 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 it discusses the Lord's coming and the first resurrection. Paul also touches on this in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. This coming is announced with a shout, the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God, as seen in Revelation 11.
In my view, in none of the verses regarding Jesus' second coming does it say He will carry the saints of the first resurrection back to heaven. My understanding is that all who are Christ's, when He returns, will be gathered to meet Him as He descends to earth, as described in Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Corinthians 15:52, at the last trump, and Revelation 11:15-18. We will reign with Him on earth, Revelation 5:10.
There are only two resurrections of the dead in Scripture: the first, in Revelation 20:4-6, and the second, in Revelation 20:11-15. My understanding is that Jesus does not return to heaven after He comes back; if He does, that would mean three resurrections.
God bless,
RLW
Grace and Peace
In the first passage I quoted, Paul's teaching was that the spirits of the deceased believers were already in Heaven and that at His Coming, Jesus would bring them with Him and their bodies buried in the earth would join with their spirits. So the believers should be assured that God had not forgotten those who were in their graves at His Coming, since they were very much alive with Him & together would join with those living believers on Earth. At least, that is how I read that passage.
Then in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, where the believers believed that the Day of Christ had already come & somehow had missed that event, or maybe it was all a lie. Paul assures them that the Day of Christ (or when Christ appears) & "our gathering together unto him" (i.e. the Rapture of Paul's first letter) will not happen until there is a great 'falling away & revealing of the man of sin'.
And then Paul goes on to elaborate on this 'man of sin', the anti-Christ who presents himself as God & demands worship. But he hasn't appeared on the scene as yet because God has set a restrainer to prevent him coming to power. But when that restrainer is removed, then the beginning of great Tribulation begins, primarily to Israel I suspect (according to Jesus' teachings in the Gospels). But you ask, "who is taken away? The anti Christ". Onto Page 2.
I agree, when Jesus returns, it will not be a secret, as all the Scriptures proclaim, it will be with the sound of the trumpet, the last trumpet, 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 11:15. As you said, every eye shall see Him coming in the clouds, Revelation 1:7, Revelation 19:11-16.
The resurrection of the righteous, which is the first resurrection, will happen at Christ's return, Revelation 19:11-16, Revelation 20:4-6. Scripture does not say Jesus goes back to heaven. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Paul is comforting them that those who are asleep/dead in Christ would not be left out of the return of Christ and the resurrection. Nowhere in these verses does it say we are taken to heaven.
If we read and study Scriptures with preconceived assumptions, it fogs the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is about the return of Jesus and our gathering together unto Him on earth, at His coming. It says do not let man deceive you because Jesus will not return until two things happen. The falling away/apostasy, and the man of sin is revealed.
Revelation 19:20 is where the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. In Revelation 17:14, they are the ones in the first resurrection who are in the battle of Armageddon with Jesus, and in Revelation 20:4 are the ones in the first resurrection who are being judged at the judgment seat of Christ, here on earth.
God bless,
RLW
Part 2
How much time does Scripture give the beast? In Revelation 13, the beast, whom people call the antichrist, from the time he rises, he is only given 3.5 years, not 7 years, Revelation 13:5. This is after the war in heaven where Michael and his angels overcome and cast Satan and his angels down to earth, this is when the restraints are lifted, not the removal of the Church.
The beast is only given 42 months, which is 3.5 years, to make war against the saints and to overcome them, Revelation 13:7. If the church is removed, whom will he make war against? The resurrection of the dead is divided into two:
The resurrection of the righteous, which is the first resurrection and will happen at Christ's return, Revelation 19:11-16, Revelation 20:4-6.
Resurrection for the rest of the dead, which is the second resurrection, and will happen after the 1000 years of Christ's reign, Revelation 20:7-15.
The ones in the first resurrection will reign with Christ, where, Daniel 7:27, 2 Timothy 2:12 Revelation 20:6, Revelation 5:9-10. When Jesus returns, He does not go back to heaven.
We see in Revelation 20:4 thrones, and judgment was given to those in the first resurrection. This is on earth, and we see those who were beheaded and did not take the mark or worship the beast, and these lived and reigned with Christ on earth for the 1000 years.
last trumpet is the seventh trumpet, the same trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Jesus is coming to establish His kingdom on this earth.
It should be understood that the Bible clearly states that there are two comings of Jesus.
He came to die for the sins of mankind: this has been fulfilled.
Second Coming: coming to establish the kingdom of God/heaven. This is yet to happen. The resurrection of the righteous dead only happens at the second coming of Christ.
See part 3.
Part 3
The seventh trumpet, the last trumpet, announces the second coming of Christ to establish His Kingdom on this Earth. We see this in Revelation 11:15-18, which says, "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
It also says the righteous, both dead and alive, are judged and rewarded, and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. We see this after the battle of Armageddon, Revelation 20:4.
In 1 Thessalonians 4:17, the word meet is the Greek word apantseis, which is found three times in the New Testament. It means a decisive going out to greet an arriving person of importance, honoring and welcoming them back. We will be meeting Jesus in the air, welcoming Him back to set up the kingdom, not going to heaven.
I could go on, but I hope this is enough to show my understanding. I do thank you for your time and discussion. We must keep our eyes and ears open so that we may see and hear the truth. If we have preconceived ideas, it gives us eyes to see, and see not, and ears to hear, and hear not. We, as the body of Christ, should inspire each other to pray and study God's word for the truth.
God bless,
RLW
Thank you, this is my understanding.
I understand many believe in the rapture, some say pre, mid, or post. In all three views, we are taken to heaven. I have not found any Scripture that explicitly states we are taken to heaven; it is an assumption, and it must be read where it is not written. I don't see the bride mentioned in the rapture doctrine; that's another discussion.
I see the coming of Jesus not as a secret event, but as one the world will witness. This is supported by Scripture: Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, and Revelation 19:11-16. This event occurs after the seventh angel sounds the last trumpet, Revelation 11:15. Then, we see the angel summoning the birds for the battle of Armageddon.
The ones in the first resurrection, Revelation 20:4-6, will be with Jesus during the battle, Revelation 17:12-14. Afterward, we observe the judgment of those in the first resurrection, Revelation 20:4.
A thought, over the past nearly 2000 years, believers in Christ, the body of Christ, the Church have faced beheading, burning at the stake, being placed on poles soaked in oil, lit as lamps along roads, among other horrible deaths. Why would the last of the Church be spared? We have been told we will face much tribulation, and if we endure, Matthew 24:9-13. The Great Tribulation and the wrath of God are not the same.
God bless,
RLW
I hope you don't mind me asking just a few questions. I am trying to follow. I understand, as you have presented, the Church is raptured, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, and taken to heaven. You say, "Rightly dividing the scriptures and letting scripture interpret scripture". Where in these Scriptures does it say we are taken to heaven?
You say the rapture is before the seals, trumpets, and bowls; these three are the wrath of God. How does that agree with 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52? Do you see the rapture as secret?
You say that after the rapture, the antichrist rises, and the 7-year tribulation starts, where only those not in the body of Christ and Israelites are left. How does that agree with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, where Paul is comforting them not to worry that the coming of the Lord will not happen, before there is a falling away/apostasy, and the man of sin is revealed?
Will the Church/the body of Christ be in heaven or on earth during the 1000 years?
Is the great tribulation and the wrath of God the same thing?
Thank you, I hope I have quoted you correctly.
God bless,
RLW
We are while on this earth subject to trials. I have gone into detail as to God chastising His own; and of course part of the testing of our faith is how we react with persecution and suffering. Remember the verse Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. IF we are walking in the Spirit He gives us strength and our souls are given peace as well. Our souls are subject to spiritual attacks so we need to be on guard. Our confidence is in Him; and His promises to save us from this world with eventual physical removal. This is also something the whole body of Christ can look forward to. We are therefore to encourage one another with these words ( 1 THessalonians 4:18) at the end of a chapter discussing the Rapture. How often we see this is unknown; I surely haven't heard much about it short of being pesky and constantly prompting a response.
When our lives are relatively comfortable we don't sense that we want to get out of here; but surely others in the fires of open persecution feel differently.
With all this obsession on the Rapture I don't honestly know how to feel. If I were a betting man I would say that most likely this month of September will come and go and the datesetters will for the most part chill out until next year and come up with some other prediction. No wonder the Philadelphia church is said to continue faithfully with little strength ( Revelation 3:8). These are the ones going through the open door at the Rapture and it seems the only church promised in general to make it.
It is better to focus on our strength in the Body of Christ as we are already seated in heavenly places; so if we are martyred or die before He comes to be absent from the body is present with the Lord ( 2 Cor. 5:8).
It seems He is coming soon but it is His decision.
Agape.
Thinking it was Peter's angel as his spirit to me would be a stretch; it would be like seeing a ghost, our souls or spirits don't move around after we die. Angels are messengers; to me, they may have thought it was someone delivering a message. They knew he was in prison.
If we look at Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, the Earth is round. When Jesus returns, there will be saints all over it. The angels Jesus sent to gather us, the air where we meet Jesus, is the Greek word 'aer,' meaning the air we breathe.
The angels will gather all the saints from across the earth to meet and escort Jesus as He descends to earth as King. This aligns with 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and Jude 1:14-15.
When Satan was cast out of heaven down to earth, his angels were cast down with him. We see many verses portraying angels as an army, like in 2 Kings 3:17 and Isaiah 37:36.
The Bible doesn't say this explicitly, but with all the fallen angels cast down here, I believe it will take an army of angels, along with the resurrected saints, to cleanse this world of evil. After the angels go back to heaven.
Thanks, brother,
God bless,
RLW
1 Thessalonians 5:1-10. Agreed, 2 Peter 3:10 speaks of the Day of the Lord coming unexpectedly with the major upheaval of the heavens and Earth, as does Paul, who possibly infers that there is a wider time frame or meaning regarding that Day ( 1 Corinthians 5:5 & 2 Corinthians 1:14). In any case, it involves all things associated with Jesus' Day of appearing. So here in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10, Paul iterates that that Day will come suddenly, thus it being a useless exercise to attempt placing it in a time frame, but as the Church is the children of God living in the light and not as those who live in darkness, that Day would not suddenly come upon them. Rather they should be comforted and fully clothed with the Spirit because God has not appointed them to His wrath (of verse 3) but to be saved from this through the Lord Jesus' (v9). If this saving from God's Wrath is to refer to His Wrath against man's sins, then there appears no reason for mentioning this in this context. His Wrath here is anger towards unbelievers at that time who will face His "sudden destruction". And to give further support to this meaning, we can look at 1 Thessalonians 1:10, Paul stating that the Church was "to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come".
Yes, Matthew chap 24 is about Jesus' Second Coming and particularly Matthew 24:29-31, that the powers of the heavens will be shaken, Jesus' appearing in the skies, the tribes of the earth mourning, and the gathering together of his Elect from all over the world. Some would assume that not only this scene is connected with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51,52, but also that the Elect referred to are all those in Christ. To Page 3.
Apologies GiGi, have only now been able to devote some time to respond to you.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10. I would agree that if we take the 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 on its own, then there may be room for other interpretations. But Paul has devoted a part of this epistle to answer the believers' question (and fear) that those believers who died before Jesus came would not share in His Kingdom (v13). That they too will be resurrected by God as certain as God had resurrected His Son (v14). This verse may also imply that the spirits of deceased believers will come with Jesus, as God sends them with His Son. Still on the matter of those who have died before Jesus comes, the apostle states (as given him directly from the Lord), that the dead will rise first, before the living saints: that's how important this resurrection is; that when Jesus comes, the priority is to those who have died and raised to life, and then He will lift the living unto Himself, so all believers in their new bodies will rise into the sky to meet their Savior, to ever remain with Him (vv15-17).
How is all this important & pertinent to our discussions? I shared the above for one reason: that we should see that what Paul taught here was not just some nice comforting reassuring words to the distressed perplexed Church, but to show that this was a special act of God to extract His people from what He would begin to do to the unbelieving world. And of course, this 'extraction/rapture' is singularly different from what is given us when the Lord Jesus returns to overpower/destroy God's enemies & commence His 1000 year reign on Earth, in Jerusalem. We simply cannot fit this removal of the saints into the sky with Jesus in any other part of the teaching of Jesus' second coming. To Page 2.
I'd like to share with you some Scriptures that show to me that the Rapture of the Church is something distinct from Jesus' second Coming and it is the next thing to occur for Christ's Church. However, you asked for verses that explicitly communicate this, but as you have also found, there is no verse(s) that we know of that says something like, 'the following information is given to you in clear chronological order depicting the imminent return of Jesus Christ for His Church and then His coming again in judgement'. Not dissimilar to the old Trinity debate, where one asks to be convinced by showing him a verse where the Trinity is mentioned in the Bible. As we learn of the Triune God from many Scriptures that show His full revealed Nature without the word Trinity mentioned, so too we must bring in all the references that lead us to the belief of Christ's next appearance to the world.
For me, understanding this teaching must come, not from Darby or anyone else, but from the Word itself, from verses which I believe give support to those familiar passages found in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (presenting a separate appearing of Christ for the Church as opposed to His second Coming to battle & then reign), and 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (the mystery of the dead & living saints raised to an incorruptible state and very unlike Christ's second Coming to war and to reign, where this does not occur). Onto Page 2.
Somehow I missed this response from you.
I saw it on my email.
Sorry for such a late response.
I see you mentioned 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 along with 2 Peter 3:10-15.
Peter is talking about the day of the Lord.
He says "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.
I agree what you said in an earlier post "you must compare scripture with scripture!
I respect that! so go and compare all the scripture describing the day of the Lord and show me DEFINITIVELY where there is a removal of saints.
We are looking for "single one verse or scripture that definitively proves each viewpoint.
There is a lot to be said but that's all I have on this at this time until I discourse with Gigi and give my reasoning of scripture and get an understanding on where and how she comes up with her viewpoints.
May I ask, how do you view yourself when it comes to interpreting the Bible?
PREMILLENNIAL.
POST MILLENNIAL
or AMILLENNIAL?
Thank you and God bless.
There certainly will be a rapture and resurrection of true believers on the Last Day when Christ returns on the clouds of glory to wrap up his judgment and salvation program, destroy this sin-cursed earth, and create New Heavens and New Earth.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 "13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
2 Peter 3:10-15 "10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;"
See earlier response re Kingdom of Christ.
You have to compare scripture with scripture" throughout the WHOLE Bible using proper hermeneutics.
You'll get definitive answers.
You can't study past writings to settle theology or doctrine disputes.
I've read some of Gigi's questions and they're answered in most the scriptures!
When we build a doctrine, there's 2 ways to do it.
1) We look for what's definitive,
2) We have to use proper hermeneutics and interpret scripture.
When you ask for a definitive answer to a doctrine and seek to find it in one scripture, you leave off from studying and interpreting scripture.
You can't ignore the whole counsel of God.
You cannot hang everything on one scripture.
If you use scripture in its proper context and collaborate the whole counsel of God it gives a definitive answer. Of course hermeneutics is important.
The issue I have is when people set aside the scripture and wants to deal with theology or doctrine without giving their own ( Scriptural ) reasons for their rebuttal.
(THEIR OWN SCRIPTURAL REBUTTAL!)
That's the only way I see to bridge the disconnect.
I need to see Gigi's present a Scriptural definitive reasons she declines these questionable doctrines.
For instance, She says she doesn't see any Scriptural proof of the rapture in the Bible.
You find it here in 1 Thessalonians 4:17
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be "CAUGHT UP" together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. ( It's also found in other places)
The Latin word "rapturo," which translates to the Greek "harpazo," meaning "caught up.
It means to snatch away!
Whether it's pre-trib or post-trib. there is a definite removal of saints according to that verse.
If not what does it mean?
You shouldn't reject ones interpretation without giving your own!
What does it mean and provide Scriptural proof of your own if you don't accept the dispensationalist interpretations.
Blessings
The New Testament reveals that the Church, the Body of Christ, has a heavenly calling and destiny, distinct from Israel's earthly kingdom hope. While it doesn't say in one verse, "the Church is going to heaven," Paul's epistles clearly show that our citizenship, position, and eternal home are in heaven.
In Philippians 3:20, Paul says, "For our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour." This points directly to the believer's true home being heavenly, not earthly. Similarly, Colossians 3:1-2 tells believers to seek those things which are above, because Christ, who is our life, is there. Our focus is heavenly because that is where our eternal life and inheritance are secured.
Ephesians 2:6 explains that we are already spiritually "seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus," meaning our position in Christ is established in heaven, even though we currently live on earth. This aligns with 2 Corinthians 5:1, which promises that if our earthly body is dissolved, "we have a building of God eternal in the heavens." The believer looks forward to being clothed with a glorified, heavenly body.
At the rapture, described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, the Church will be "caught up... to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Since Christ is currently in heaven, and we will be forever with Him, this implies a heavenly destiny for the Church.
These scriptures collectively show that the Church is not promised a place in Israel's earthly kingdom, but rather has a heavenly inheritance, being part of a new creation in Christ. Paul's unique revelation of the mystery ( Eph. 3:1-11) includes this distinction. The Church is not waiting for a kingdom to come to earth, but for Christ to take us to where He is-in heaven.
Still it's not possible to mix the kingdom message meant for the 12 Tribes of Israel with the mystery message to the body of Christ the Church.
" 2nd Timothy 2:15"
I agree that the Church, the Body of Christ, is not the bride; I do not agree that the bride metaphor is rooted in prophecy and tied to Israel. The New Jerusalem is the bride that is dressed in fine linen, pure and white, for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints; Revelation 19:6-8. This is the city that Abraham looked for, Hebrews 11:8-10.
This bride, the New Jerusalem, will not descend until everything is fulfilled and all is made new. Revelation 21:1-3. Then, the marriage and the feast will mark the beginning of our eternity on the new earth with God and Jesus.
Revelation 19:7-9: Let us be glad, rejoice, and honor Him: for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb." And he saith unto me, "These are the true sayings of God."
I also disagree with the teaching of the catching away or the rapture as being carried to heaven. You mention 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, but where does it say we are taken to heaven? This passage describes Jesus returning to earth at the last trump, Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, and Revelation 19:11-16.
God bless,
RLW
Any thoughts?
Right Division ( 2 Timothy 2:15)
The Church, the Body of Christ, is distinct from the Bride of Christ-a truth revealed uniquely through the Apostle Paul under the dispensation of grace. While traditional teaching often blends Israel's prophetic promises with the Church's heavenly calling, a right division ( 2 Timothy 2:15) reveals that believers today, saved by grace through faith alone ( Ephesians 2:8-9), are part of a new creation: the Body of Christ ( 1 Corinthians 12:12-13; Romans 12:5).
Paul never refers to the Church as the "Bride of Christ." Instead, he consistently identifies the Church as a body in which Christ is the Head ( Ephesians 1:22-23; Colossians 1:18). This organism is spiritual, made up of both Jew and Gentile, reconciled into one new man ( Ephesians 2:15-16). This unity was a "mystery" kept hidden from ages past ( Colossians 1:26; Ephesians 3:1-6), never prophesied or associated with Israel's covenantal promises.
In contrast, the bride metaphor is rooted in prophecy and tied to Israel. Revelation 21:9-10 calls the New Jerusalem "the bride, the Lamb's wife," a city prepared for redeemed Israel ( Isaiah 62:4-5; Hosea 2:19-20). John the Baptist called himself a "friend of the bridegroom" ( John 3:29), which places him outside the bride. Paul, while using marriage as a metaphor in Ephesians 5, still emphasizes the Body-not a bride-saying, "We are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones" ( Ephesians 5:30). The analogy teaches love and unity, not identity.
Confusing the Bride with the Body blends Israel's earthly hope with the Church's heavenly calling ( Philippians 3:20). We are not awaiting a wedding ceremony, but rather a catching away ( 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) to appear with Christ in glory. As members of His Body, we are already spiritually one with Him ( 1 Corinthians 6:17). Understanding this distinction preserves the truth of God's separate programs for Israel and the Church.
God Bless
Death is an enemy ( 1 Corinthians 15:26); but God aso states that He is the God of the living not the dead ( Matthew 22:32).
We read in 1 Corinthians 15:55-57
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
It may seem like overstating the obvious here; but death for a believer; TRULY BORN AGAIN is a victory while for the unsaved is anything but. It may be true at funerals that relatives claim that their loved one is with the Lord; but for someone who is clearly saved should have a more demonstrative rejoicing in that regard than the world in their feigned attempt to convince everyone of the same fact when it is likely the person is suffering in hades.
I state this after seeing a reaction at a funeral for someone in our church the other week; apparently someone there was very uncomfortable hearing scriptures related to where we go as a believer after death. This is probably why many dumb down what should in reality be an atmosphere of joy. I am not saying that grief shouldn't occur but as Paul stated in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
(Whew thought I lost all this work)...
All this discussion at the funeral led to this particular concept of sleep; but our Pastor does NOT believe in "soul sleep". We certainly rest from our works and for a while in His presence ( Rev. 6:11)
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 - The Classic Rapture Passage
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout... and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air..."
(vv. 16-17, KJV)
Paul describes:
A resurrection of dead believers.
A snatching away (Greek: harpazo, Latin: rapturo) of the living believers.
A meeting in the air-not Christ coming to Earth (contrast with Second Coming).
A comforting hope unique to the Body of Christ (v. 18).
1 Corinthians 15:51-53 - A Mystery Revealed
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed... in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye"
Paul explains:
This was previously hidden-a mystery not found in prophecy.
There will be a transformation of living saints.
The event is instantaneous and involves receiving glorified bodies.
Philippians 3:20-21 - Our Heavenly Hope
"For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour... Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body"
Paul emphasizes:
Our hope is not earthly (kingdom), but heavenly.
Christ will give believers a glorified body like His own.
Summary:
Paul teaches that the rapture is a mystery revealed only to him for the Body of Christ. It is a pre-judgment event ( 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9), sudden, and distinct from Christ's return to Earth in judgment (as in Matthew 24 or Revelation). This catching away is the blessed hope ( Titus 2:13) for those saved by grace through faith apart from the Law ( Romans 11:6; Ephesians 2:8-9).
The apostle Paul is uniquely identified in Scripture as the chosen vessel through whom God revealed the mystery of the Body of Christ. In Romans 11:13, Paul declares, "I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office." Unlike the Twelve Apostles, who were sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel ( Matthew 10:5-6), Paul was sent by the risen, glorified Christ from heaven ( Acts 9:15; Galatians 1:11-12) to proclaim a new message-not the Gospel of the Kingdom, but the Gospel of the Grace of God ( Acts 20:24). Paul alone speaks of the "Church which is His Body" ( Ephesians 1:22-23), a new creation made up of both Jew and Gentile, united by faith and baptized by the Holy Spirit into one Body ( 1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 2:14-16).
The Body of Christ was a mystery "kept secret since the world began" ( Romans 16:25) and not revealed until Paul. He was given this revelation by Christ directly ( Ephesians 3:1-9; Colossians 1:24-27) and is the only apostle who teaches its doctrines-such as salvation by grace through faith without works ( Ephesians 2:8-9), the heavenly position of believers ( Colossians 3:1-4), and the rapture of the Church ( 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). Paul calls himself the "wise masterbuilder" who laid the foundation for this present dispensation of grace ( 1 Corinthians 3:10). The other apostles, including Peter, recognized Paul's distinct apostleship and agreed to confine their ministry to the circumcision, while Paul went to the Gentiles ( Galatians 2:7-9).
No other apostle is identified in Scripture as the apostle of the Body of Christ. Only Paul received the full revelation of the mystery, the doctrines, and the heavenly calling of the Church. Therefore, Paul stands alone as the God-appointed apostle to the Body of Christ.
The Mystery Was Hidden Until Paul
Paul clearly states that the "mystery" was kept secret since the world began and was first revealed to him:
Romans 16:25 - "...according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began."
Ephesians 3:1-9 - Paul says "by revelation he made known unto me the mystery", and that it "was not made known unto the sons of men" in previous ages.
Colossians 1:25-26 - Paul was made a minister "to fulfill the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest."
This means Peter could not have preached what he did not yet know.
Peter Preached to Israel, Not the Body of Christ
Peter's ministry was to the Jews (the circumcision):
Galatians 2:7-9 - Paul and Peter agreed that Peter would go to the circumcision (Israel), and Paul to the uncircumcision (Gentiles).
In Acts 2 and 3, Peter preached Jesus as Israel's Messiah, urging Israel to repent so that God could send Jesus back and restore the kingdom.
Peter's message focused on prophecy being fulfilled-not a mystery being revealed.
The Mystery Involves the Church, the Body of Christ
The "mystery" revealed to Paul involves:
Jew and Gentile in one Body ( Ephesians 3:6)
Salvation by grace without the law ( Galatians 2:16, Romans 3:28)
A heavenly position in Christ ( Ephesians 2:6)
The rapture of the Body ( 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
These truths are not found in Peter's early preaching in the book of Acts.
Regarding the return of Jesus, I only see in Scripture that He returns once. As seen in 1 Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, Luke 21:25-28, John 14:3, Acts 1:11, 1 Corinthians 15:51-55, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Hebrews 9:28, Revelation 1:7, Revelation 6:12-17, Revelation 19:11-21, through Revelation 20:1-6, is the same event when Jesus returns, and it occurs after the tribulation of the beast. My understanding is that there is only one Day of the Lord, and that is when Jesus returns.
Regarding the Messiah, I have never asked a Jew about their understanding of it. What I have previously read about Jewish faith is that one day a charismatic Jewish leader, the anointed of God, a man with the characteristics of God, a direct descendant of the Davidic line, will gather Jews from around the world, and bring them back to the Land of Israel and restore the kingdom ridding them of all oppressors.
That was what they were looking for during the time Jesus was here during His 3.5-year ministry, a human conqueror. The disciples were looking for Him to set up the kingdom; they even asked Him after He was resurrected, Acts 1:6-7. They were looking for what we see will happen in the millennium when Jesus returns to earth.
It was mainly the leaders of Jerusalem who did not see or did not hear, which caused blindness in part to happen to Israel, who rejected Jesus; many accepted Jesus as the Messiah while He was here. The leaders of Jerusalem played a prominent role in turning the crowds against Jesus, and it was the nation of Israel as a whole that rejected Him. And today, most Jews do not believe the Messiah has come.
I know we may not agree, but I hope I answered your question.
God bless,
RLW
Part 1
This subject has been discussed before, and I don't reply to cause debate, but in my heart, I feel it is deception that people may be looking for something that is not coming. In Matthew 24, Jesus said, "Take heed that no man deceive you." I would like to point out a few things that may be considered for study in pursuit of the truth. The Rapture doctrine, where the Church is taken to heaven before the second coming of Jesus, does it fit scripture? If Daniel 9:25-27 has been fulfilled, how does that affect the Rapture doctrine?
Each one of us is accountable- Romans 14:12.
There are two resurrections: the first in Revelation 19:11-21 through Revelation 20:1-5. This aligns with what Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-58.
When Jesus returns, it will be with the armies of heaven in Revelation 19, and in Matthew 24, Jesus sends His angels to gather His elect. We see in Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, and Luke 21:25-28.
When Jesus returns, the Battle of Armageddon occurs, Revelation 16:13-16, Ezekiel 39:11-22, Revelation 19:17-19, and the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire, Revelation 19:20-21. Satan is imprisoned in the bottomless pit, Revelation 20:1-3, and judgment occurs for those in the first resurrection on earth, Revelation 20:4, not in heaven, then the 1000 years, Revelation 20:5-6.
I do not know of any Bible verses that agree with the rapture of the Church?
See part 2
Revelation 4:1 Continued
There are different theological approaches to the book of Revelation, and I'll try and point out some to you as we go through this. But Chapter 4 Verse 1 is the verse that's used by those who believe that the believers will be raptured prior to the Tribulation Period, because number 1, the door had been opened, and number two, a trumpet was talking to him.
It's the same as Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4:13, I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that you sorrow not, as others which have no hope. He had just said in this chapter that the trump of God would sound. It would be a great shout, and the trump of God would sound. And so here is the trumpet talking to John saying come up here.
And those who hold the Pre-Trib. position see that as equivalent to the rapture of the church that is happening. And from now on, John will see everything from heaven, and the church will no longer be on the earth, but the multitudes will be in heaven.
And many believe that's an indication, among other scriptures, especially 1 Thessalonians Chapter 5 where it gives us the Tribulation Period, and he says this is for the wrath of God, and we have not been chosen for the wrath of God.
Part 6
Trust and dependence on the Son of God, believing in His sacrifice on the cross and His resurrection, Romans 5:8-10. Titus 1:2 states that God has promised eternal life to us from before creation, but it is our future hope in Jesus through faith, as seen in Romans 1:16. This hope has been established for us in Jesus before time; this hope is eternal life. It is not seen or enjoyed now; that is not hope, Romans 8:24-25.
Is Jesus praying for just the disciples or also future believers? This was determined before the foundation of the world, as we see in John 14:3, and Paul confirms it in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18. We will see the glory of Christ that the Father has given Him when He returns to establish the kingdom.
Ephesians 1:4 tells us that God chose us in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world, and salvation was part of God's plan. The word " chose, " from the Greek word eklego, means to pick out for oneself, to choose, elect, or select. God's plan and purpose for humanity was for us to have eternal life in Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:19-20 explains that Jesus, through His obedience to the Father and His sinless life as a lamb without blemish and spot, shed His blood for us. This was foreordained before the foundation of the world. The word " foreordained " is derived from the Greek word proginosko, meaning to know beforehand, representing the foreknowledge of God, a plan manifested in the last times for us. Various verses refer to the foundation of the world, meaning from the creation of the earth and humanity.
Matthew 25:34 speaks of the glory in God's plan, in the mind of God, encompassing all things from beginning to end, something we as humans cannot fully comprehend. We see the culmination of this verse in Revelation 20:11-15.
See part 7.
No, it is not wrong to believe that your are "a sinner saved by grace", even though this phrase is not used in the Bible. As you know, in the Church today we use phrases or words to describe a Truth that is evident in the Bible but not the actual words used. Ephesians 2:8,9 is the Scripture that reflects the phrase "a sinner saved by grace". We could say the same about the Triune Nature of God (otherwise, referred to as the Trinity): where there are many verses that describe this profound Nature yet not using that word, Trinity (e.g. Matthew 28:19; John 17:3-5; 1 John 1:1-3; etc.). We use the word 'Rapture', which is derived from the Latin form from the Greek, which means 'to seize or to snatch' (e.g. 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17). So, there's nothing wrong with using words or phrases not found in the Bible, as long as it correctly & clearly expresses a biblical Truth. But if someone is against using such words or phrases, then I would be equally comfortable in using the direct biblical quotations in lieu.
But the main point of Ephesians 2:8,9 is that our salvation is all of God's Grace & Mercy afforded us - nothing we have done or ever can do could replace or even complement God's Work for us and in us. It is truly God's Gift to us - and a gift cannot be received in exchange for something else, or else it's no longer a gift.
Part 3
This spirit is not the person, nor is it immortal or eternal, nor does it have a conscious existence when the person dies. Those of us who have the Holy Spirit in us, Romans 8:11, But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you, this is the Spirit of God, for those in Jesus Christ, this happens at resurrection.
In Psalms 16:7 David said the LORD has given him counsel; this is his spirit communicating with God, as Paul calls it in 2 Corinthians 4:16 the inward man. Peter describes it as the hidden man of the heart, 1 Peter 3:4. When God communicates with us, it is not with our mind; it's a Spirit-to-spirit communication.
God gives the human a spirit, some believe it is at conception, Zechariah 12:1, Isaiah 12:5. We know He takes it back at the time of death, Ecclesiastes 12:7. Psalm 104:29, thou takest away their breath, they die, the Hebrew word for breath is ruach, it also means spirit. James 2:26, the body without the spirit is dead. All consciousness ends when we die. Psalm 6:5, Job 14:12-14, Job 17:13-16. Psalm 115:17. Ecclesiastes 9:5-10. We sleep in death until resurrection day, the day of redemption. 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15.
The Bible tells us a spirit can be good, bad, or broken, Psalm 34:18, God cares for us and wants to help mend our brokenness, Isaiah 41:10. When we do not have rule over our spirit, we can go so bad that God turns one over to a reprobate mind as we see in Romans 1:18-32, the door is shut. With God's Spirit, the Holy Spirit, we in our spirit grow in our faith and have comfort in His presence.
See part 4
1 Thessalonians 4:17 - Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
More literally, then afterwards in sequence, we which are alive and are remaining shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, for a meeting of the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The phrase "caught up together" is the Greek word HARPADZO which means to snatch up by force. It's used for a bird, like an owl that will swoop down and snatch up a mouse. And it's used for the Lord coming and snatching up His people. In fact, it's the same word in Latin (RAPTUS), which is where we get rapture from. It comes from the Latin Vulgate.
Some say that there is no rapture because there's no such word in the bible. Obviously, they don't understand that RAPTUS is the Latin word for the Greek word HARPADZO which means to snatch away or seize by force.
So, we which are alive and remain will be caught up together with them. They come up out of the grave first, and we get caught up with them to where when we get to the Lord, we get there at the same time. It will be simultaneous, though their action starts first, which is very understandable because they're underground and we're above ground.
1 Thessalonians 4:18 - Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
The word comfort is the word encouragement. He's showing them the procedure. He says don't worry about those who have died before you because this is what's going to happen. They will come back with the Lord in spirit, their bodies will be raised up first. And then we which live and remain will be caught up together. Our spirit is still in our body. By the time we all reach into the presence of the Lord in the clouds, our bodies will be changed into a spiritual body and we will forever be with Him.