More thoughts on knowing the Word and living it out
Living by example: The good; bad and the ugly
Revisiting the theme from the last post; let's consider the situation where someone fails in a mission through no obvious fault of their own. In the example of witnessing in a dangerous neighborhood an incident can quickly arise that abruptly ends our attempts at sharing God's truth. No computer can give us wisdom to fall to our knees and pray; or tell us where to go and when to move on. Paul faced times such as the desire to go to Bithynia and the Spirit said NO; and other times when he was called elsewhere (such as the call to go instead to Macedonia). When someone is in need we can discover what we are supposed to do but not how to help. In Acts we read about someone that couldn't be helped with silver or gold but was healed by Peter ( Acts 3:6) during the time of his unique unction.
We can no more explain God's calling and choosing to reveal Himself to a previously dead heart than we can explain a heart of unbelief that Satan has blinded and who cannot find objective truth (such as the Pharisees finding a need to ask for a sign after all of Christ's miracles). Judas' betrayal made no sense when all the riches of heaven were there for the asking if he would only believe.
In short the spiritual dimension is only comprehended by someone with an eternal soul; namely man albeit the animal kingdom and all of creation reacts to what is happening but only men can truly be judged based on eternal truths evident in the creation as Romans 1 states either sentenced to eternal condemnation or eternal reward of heaven's joy depending on their spiritual state.
What the world doesn't get is that once we are removed as "salt and light" that once 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 occurs (the restrainer removed) the preverbal you know what is going to hit the fan. Antichrist somehow will be able to craft a deception uniquely appealing to every particular person (AI?)
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. ( 1 Corinthians 1:25).
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. ( Romans 1:22-25).
2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Man has often sought one of two courses. The first result of man's degenerate state is wars; whether we look at the first murder involving Cain the firstborn son of Adam and Eve and their second child Abel; or the wars early on in Genesis and overall violence and corruption of the earth. The second is the attempt to replicate a "utopia" on earth. Often especially with the kings; emporers and dictators that came later on we see both occuring at the same time. This theme was apparent in ancient Rome and Greece where the materialism along with worship of idols led to eventual moral malaise and the self destruction within of civilizations which we see so often today.
It is clear that we are heading for the final consummation; the final dictatorship of the Beast Antichrist so clearly described in Revelation; and seen in repeated past rulers who partially fulfilled the prophecies as to the character. His end is thus ( Psalm 2:9-10)
The Lord will devour them in his anger,
and fire will consume them.
10 None of their descendants will survive;
the king will kill them all.
Always keep in mind that we CANNOT escape judgment without Christ; OR the call to worship Antichrist if unregenerate.
I assume you mean Jehovah's Witnesses when you said JW's, but I assure you I am not. I understand many believe in the rapture of the Church, but I do not. I can't say that it's wrong; that would just lead to debate. We can share our understanding in hopes of inspiring each other to seek the truth.
Revelation is filled with images and visions given to John. In my understanding, if we look at Revelation 7, where people from the tribes of Israel and all nations that cannot be numbered are described, verses 14-17 refer to a time after everything is over, when God wipes away all our tears.
This is similar to what we see in Matthew 17 when Jesus took Peter, James, and John up on the mountain, where they saw Jesus' transfiguration. Jesus said it was a vision in verse 9. My understanding is that it was a vision because if Moses and Elijah were really there, Jesus would not be called the Firstfruits of those who slept, as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:20.
Looking at 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 it discusses the Lord's coming and the first resurrection. Paul also touches on this in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. This coming is announced with a shout, the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God, as seen in Revelation 11.
In my view, in none of the verses regarding Jesus' second coming does it say He will carry the saints of the first resurrection back to heaven. My understanding is that all who are Christ's, when He returns, will be gathered to meet Him as He descends to earth, as described in Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Corinthians 15:52, at the last trump, and Revelation 11:15-18. We will reign with Him on earth, Revelation 5:10.
There are only two resurrections of the dead in Scripture: the first, in Revelation 20:4-6, and the second, in Revelation 20:11-15. My understanding is that Jesus does not return to heaven after He comes back; if He does, that would mean three resurrections.
Thanks for your reply. I understand many see this as comfort, similar to what you hear at a funeral when the preacher says Bob is with Jesus in heaven. Am I going to tell that loved one No, he is not? NO, but what is the actual truth?
Ecclesiastes 9:5, if we die, we know nothing. Psalms 115:17 I believe that if our spirit were alive in heaven, we would be praising the LORD. Our only hope of eternal life is in Jesus; this comes when we are resurrected, not before, 1 Corinthians 15:52-54.
Not to drag this out, I will say, if we all have an immortal spirit, there is no death and no true gift of eternal life because we already possess it. John 3:15, John 10:28, Romans 2:7, Romans 6:23, 1 John 2:25. This is our promise. The others receive death; they will perish, John 3:16, 2 Thessalonians 2:10, 2 Peter 2:12. The word perish is to destroy fully, permanent, absolute destruction. Revelation 21:8 their part, their punishment, and death will fit their sins, not burn for eternity.
Death is not a separation, as Greek philosophy puts it, which has influenced today's understanding.
Thanks 'Meek and seek' for restating your understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:7,8. I think we generally agree on this passage, except of v8a, "And then shall that Wicked be revealed..". You believe that God restrains Himself until the time of ending the anti-Christ's reign; my understanding is the God restrains Himself until the appearing of the anti-Christ (i.e. when the restraining force is removed, then the anti-Christ ("that Wicked") shall be revealed. No one knows who this anti-Christ is, until God removes His restrainer so that he might be exposed & presented to the world to do the works of the Devil, eventually bringing his demise. I guess it's how we read this passage that causes our differences. So, I think we have exchanged our ideas well on this, so I will leave the discussion. Thanks again and every blessing.
Thanks Meek and seek for your reply. I agree that the point of the apostle's discussion on these misunderstandings by the Church (in both his letters to the Church there) is about the deceased believers missing out on the resurrection ( 1 Thessalonians 4:13), and that the Day of Christ had come ( 2 Thessalonians 2:1,2).
In the first passage I quoted, Paul's teaching was that the spirits of the deceased believers were already in Heaven and that at His Coming, Jesus would bring them with Him and their bodies buried in the earth would join with their spirits. So the believers should be assured that God had not forgotten those who were in their graves at His Coming, since they were very much alive with Him & together would join with those living believers on Earth. At least, that is how I read that passage.
Then in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, where the believers believed that the Day of Christ had already come & somehow had missed that event, or maybe it was all a lie. Paul assures them that the Day of Christ (or when Christ appears) & "our gathering together unto him" (i.e. the Rapture of Paul's first letter) will not happen until there is a great 'falling away & revealing of the man of sin'.
And then Paul goes on to elaborate on this 'man of sin', the anti-Christ who presents himself as God & demands worship. But he hasn't appeared on the scene as yet because God has set a restrainer to prevent him coming to power. But when that restrainer is removed, then the beginning of great Tribulation begins, primarily to Israel I suspect (according to Jesus' teachings in the Gospels). But you ask, "who is taken away? The anti Christ". Onto Page 2.
I agree, when Jesus returns, it will not be a secret, as all the Scriptures proclaim, it will be with the sound of the trumpet, the last trumpet, 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 11:15. As you said, every eye shall see Him coming in the clouds, Revelation 1:7, Revelation 19:11-16.
The resurrection of the righteous, which is the first resurrection, will happen at Christ's return, Revelation 19:11-16, Revelation 20:4-6. Scripture does not say Jesus goes back to heaven. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Paul is comforting them that those who are asleep/dead in Christ would not be left out of the return of Christ and the resurrection. Nowhere in these verses does it say we are taken to heaven.
If we read and study Scriptures with preconceived assumptions, it fogs the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is about the return of Jesus and our gathering together unto Him on earth, at His coming. It says do not let man deceive you because Jesus will not return until two things happen. The falling away/apostasy, and the man of sin is revealed.
Revelation 19:20 is where the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. In Revelation 17:14, they are the ones in the first resurrection who are in the battle of Armageddon with Jesus, and in Revelation 20:4 are the ones in the first resurrection who are being judged at the judgment seat of Christ, here on earth.
Hi Meek and seek. I read with interest your reply to Richard and for the most part, I agree. That is, 2 Thessalonians 2:3,6,7a I do agree with you on.
However, in verse 7b, "only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way". If you read it like this: 'only he who now letteth (or, restrains), will continue to restrain, until he (i.e. the one who is doing the restraining) is taken out of the way (i.e. the restraining barrier is now removed)'. Only after this barrier is removed then will the Wicked one be revealed (v8), who will be consumed/destroyed by the Lord Jesus at His Coming. Can you see the difference in our understanding of this passage?
You read it as the 'anti Christ is taken away' and I read it as the 'restrainer is taken away'. In my understanding, it is the restraining force that has to be removed by God before the anti-Christ is revealed, or else, what would be the need of a restrainer (as also in verse 6, "withholdeth)? But I can see how you read this, if the word "letteth" is not 'restrain' but to 'allow'. So, you might read it as, 'God is allowing the anti-Christ to rule until he is then removed later by God'. But the Greek word for "letteth" is 'katecho' and that means 'to hold fast, to restrain, to keep'. So, I believe that the word 'restrain' is the right word to use in this instance and not 'allow', which then means that God restrains the anti-Christ from appearing, but once God removes His Restrainer, then anti-Christ appears and all that follows from that. And after the anti-Christ's course on Earth is finished, Jesus at His appearing, will destroy him. GBU.
Jesus said "knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
And then we come to verse 20) Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
He's standing outside knocking, not to come in!
He's calling out individuals! " if any man hear my voice,"
You also quoted, "Mathew 16:18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
The gates of hell shall not prevail against it!
What a saying that is!
Gates are put up for defense!
He's saying these defensive gates will not prevail against the Church!
This is one of many reason why I believe the Antichrist can't come until the Church is removed.
It puts 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 in perspective and also the saints mentioned in Daniel 7:25 couldn't be talking about the Church.
Thanks and that's a great question about the Tribulation.
From a dispensational view, the Great Tribulation ( Mt 24:21) and the Day of God's Wrath ( 1 Th 5:9) are distinct in emphasis yet coordinated within Daniel's 70th week ( Dan 9:27). The Day of the Lord is the overarching heavenly program of judgment; the Great Tribulation is the intense, earth-side experience-especially the last 3 years-when the beast persecutes Israel and the nations ( Mt 24:15,21; Rev 12-13; Jer 30:7).
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 marks the transition: the Restrainer is "taken out of the way," the man of sin is revealed, and the Day of the Lord proceeds. Most see the Restrainer as the Spirit's restraining work through the Church; at the catching away that restraint is lifted ( 1 Th 4:16-18; 2 Th 2:6-7). This does not make evil sovereign; it means God judicially permits lawlessness to ripen so He may judge it openly.
Revelation shows judgment initiating from heaven as the Lamb breaks the seals ( Rev 4-6). Seals, trumpets, and bowls are decrees from the throne, answering the martyrs' cry and culminating in the King's appearing ( Rev 6:9-11; 19). Thus the Day of Wrath is truly a continuum: it begins with restraint lifted, escalates to direct plagues, and finally crests in the cosmic dissolution Peter describes ( 2 Pet 3:7-12).
Romans 1 helps explain the "early phase" you sense: God's wrath is already "revealed from heaven" when He gives society over to its chosen rebellion ( Rom 1:18,24,26,28). Applied eschatologically, the removal of restraint is itself an act of wrath-God handing the world to the consequences of rejecting truth ( 2 Th 2:10-12).
Therefore, while Great Tribulation and Day of Wrath can be distinguished (earthly persecution vs. heavenly initiative), they belong to one coherent action of God from heaven that begins with removing the Restrainer and runs through world-ending judgment, after which the promised kingdom is installed ( Rev 20; Acts 3:19-21).
I have gone through your recent posts Lbooth1955 and am in agreement with your eschatological timeline, and particularly that the Church at Christ's coming for her, will be taken to Heaven (as the Scriptures you cited show), escaping God's Judgements that will be poured out on an evil, Christ-rejecting World. The Great Tribulation/God's Wrath is against the unrepentant sinful unregenerate men, not against the Church that has been cleansed and purified through His Son. If the Church should also have to bear God's Wrath, which comes to the unbelieving, then a case of double jeopardy would be in play, which would go against the Righteousness of God.
Yet, the question that I deal with is: if the Great Tribulation ( Matthew 24:21) and the Day of God's Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 1:18) are different events, but pertaining to Daniel's 70th week, is it possible that they are actually part of the same action of God in Heaven? When I read 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, I sense that this period of time starts with the removal of the Restrainer and the revelation of the 'man of sin'. Even though we don't see that great outpouring of God's Wrath upon the world ( 2 Peter 3:7-12, and others) leading to the destruction of the world and evil men, I feel that God's Wrath in its early stages of revelation when He removes His Restrainer that has thus far held the world to some degree of normalcy and decency, though now rapidly degenerating.
I take the example of a dam, holding back a large volume of water from passing to the other side. When water is to be released, the release valves are opened incrementally letting out a little water at a time, or else there would be catastrophic consequences to the inhabitants on the other side. Likewise, when God's 'valves' begin to open (i.e. His Wrath begins as He removes His Restrainer & all that brings), the world might know that their time is short & the little suffering that life threw at them, will be insurmountably horrendous. GBU.
The rapture, the antichrist, and the 7-year tribulation.
From a dispensational perspective, the rapture ( 1 Thess. 4:16-17; 1 Cor. 15:51-52) is the catching away of the Body of Christ before God's wrath is poured out on the world. Once the church is removed, God resumes His prophetic program with Israel. At that point, the Antichrist arises, confirming a covenant with many for seven years ( Dan. 9:27). This initiates the tribulation period, divided into the first half of false peace and the second half of unparalleled persecution, known as "the time of Jacob's trouble" ( Jer. 30:7).
In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, Paul reassures the Thessalonians who feared they had missed "the day of Christ." He reminds them two prophetic events must occur before Christ's second advent to earth: (1) a "falling away" (apostasia), and (2) the revelation of the man of sin, the Antichrist. The key distinction lies in understanding Paul's use of "our gathering together unto him" (v. 1) as the rapture, which he taught was imminent and without signs. The "day of Christ" (often used interchangeably with "day of the Lord" in prophetic context) refers not to the rapture but to the coming judgment and tribulation leading to Christ's visible return.
Thus, Paul is not teaching that the rapture cannot happen until the apostasy and Antichrist appear; rather, he comforts believers that the fearful "day" they dreaded had not arrived, since those events were not yet in motion. For the Body of Christ, the blessed hope is always imminent. The falling away and the Antichrist's revelation belong to Israel's prophetic timeline after the church's removal. Once the church is gone, those left-unbelieving Gentiles and Israel-will see these signs unfold.
In short, dispensationalism harmonizes the passages by keeping programs distinct: the church is raptured prior to the tribulation, while the apostasy and Antichrist belong to the prophetic sequence that unfolds afterward.
I hope you don't mind me asking just a few questions. I am trying to follow. I understand, as you have presented, the Church is raptured, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, and taken to heaven. You say, "Rightly dividing the scriptures and letting scripture interpret scripture". Where in these Scriptures does it say we are taken to heaven?
You say the rapture is before the seals, trumpets, and bowls; these three are the wrath of God. How does that agree with 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52? Do you see the rapture as secret?
You say that after the rapture, the antichrist rises, and the 7-year tribulation starts, where only those not in the body of Christ and Israelites are left. How does that agree with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, where Paul is comforting them not to worry that the coming of the Lord will not happen, before there is a falling away/apostasy, and the man of sin is revealed?
Will the Church/the body of Christ be in heaven or on earth during the 1000 years?
Is the great tribulation and the wrath of God the same thing?
In considering the end times; where we certainly are headed quickly as I see it-we see that proclamations are made beforehand as to the general state of the "last days" such as attitudes of people in 2 Timothy 3 as well as with the 144,000 and the 2 prophets in Revelation. We also see angels themselves as we get to the time the bowl judgments are about to occur as a final warning.
In reality; of course for an unregenerate person it only seals their fate and increases their judgment once their impenitent hearts are challenged. The lack of love of the truth ( 2 Thessalonians 2:10) allows the world to accept the Daniel 9:27 covenant also known as the covenant with death and hell in Isaiah 28:18 which is deliberately agreed upon despite the obvious ramifications.
People as they do now will hear what they want to hear and disregard the rest. As with the Prophets of old God says He will do nothing without first revealing the matter to the prophets ( Amos 3:7); and we see this process most clearly it seems with Jeremiah but also of course with the warnings in Deuteronomy as to blessings and cursings. Deuteronomy 30:19 says to choose life and live but of course Jeremiah 17:9 shows the human heart is desperately wicked and who can understand it?
Again a repeated concept here that I have mentioned is that the world is aware of what's coming. It is the same sort of idea when Christ came the first time with the Pharisees denying the obvious and committing the unpardonable blasphemy against the Spirit saying that it is evil; and likely the same sort of thing will be heard by the son of perdition and the world at large once judgments start to fall as we see several times during the bowl judgments ( 2 Thessalonians 2:3). He will say "unheard of" things against the Most High ( Daniel 11:36) and will come in his own name yet declare himself to be god (see John 5:43).
We need to be ready to desire seeing the Day of the Lord ( Amos 5:18
This truth is exactly what the Apostle Paul is teaching in his second letter to the Thessalonians. In 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Paul declares that God has chosen His people "from the beginning unto salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." (v. 13-14). This means that the whole process of repentance, faith, and obedience is not something that originates in man, but it is the outworking of God's sovereign choice and the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit.
The evidences that God is already at work within that person. When God draws a sinner, He grants them both the will and the ability to repent and to believe. Paul emphasizes that salvation is by "belief of the truth," but that belief itself is a gift produced by the Spirit's sanctifying work.
Therefore, we understand that the New Resurrected Soul and the continual growth in grace are direct fulfillments of what Paul describes: being called by the Gospel so that we may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is entirely the work of God, from beginning to end, and it gives the believer assurance that what God has begun He will also complete.
13 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.[b]
16 "Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me."
These statements seemed to come out before these 70 were sent out; if not at the time they were out there. Whatever the case it shows how quickly the doom of these places was declared and that it appears they only had one fleeting moment (in general) to come to the truth. Of course this doesn't stop a few from coming to true faith but speaks overall of the cities and their mindset and overall lack of faith. It also reinforces the message given means rejection of Christ and God the Father as we see from the end of verse 16.
These passages also illustrate the RESPONSIBILITY people have alongside their predestined outcome. We can argue whether their reaction was predestined or their fate to not be able to believe. The fact is BOTH seem to be clear from scripture; just as faith comes from hearing the Word ( Romans 10:17) that is God's methodology to reach those elected; called and chosen or Predestined whatever word we wish to use to describe these things has the same concept. Or to put it another way we read in 2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Hence; knowledge of the truth alone doesn't save. We still are given minds that intersect and commune with our souls and we make a public declaration of what is in our hearts through our mouth; also stated in Romans. With more knowledge we have greater judgment.
Further details about the Antichrist and mark of the beast
It is clear from Revelation 13 that all those worshipping the Antichrist go on to taking his mark and these are all individuals not in the Book of Life; predetermined before time itself it appears here.
I can't speak for anyone else here but I have had times many years ago when I was not right with God about being compelled to take the mark; as a sort of vision of the future and horror is an understatement for the pure terror I felt. Now I have discussed before what seems to indicate some who are left behind; but I am considering the state here of whoever is in the Tribulation. Man may indeed be terrified and serve Satan with fear who are unregenerate but the emphasis of scripture is rejection of God because men would not LOVE the truth and be saved. 2 Thessalonians 2:10 puts it this way: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Our Lord often stated let this sink into your ears; and this is one of those cases it seems. The sad truth and reality is that we all NOW would worship the Antichrist if we are unregenerate. Try that for size sharing the Gospel with someone; I wouldn't recommend it too often but if man cannot accept his sin nature that is a wake up call. As my "famous" quote states Satan is the equal opportunity destroyer; and (I'll borrow another common phrase) will use any means necessary to bring about his purpose and will. There will be no Atheists as I have shared before in regard to the 6th Seal by the time this mark ensues; and there will be no halfhearted followers. The signs and wonders will be worldwide and no doubt be more than sufficient to convince the masses to think that they indeed have utopia; and likely will live forever taking this mark. Perhaps some will glee in making themselves unredeemable through DNA alteration; in reality their souls already are lost.
Based on my last post; many seem to think that Satan gets great glee in deceiving souls and sending them to hell. Considering that he is going there himself he may be mad enough to somehow think he can avoid his fate but anyone else being there with him I doubt gives him any consolation. We are to him most likely a means to an end to achieve a dream that is destined to fail; that is worldwide worship as the Godhead has only reserved for itself and of course the only Creator to be praised. Unlike our Lord who chastises everyone He loves; and in fact allows those angels who haven't left their first estate to observe and learn from us; nothing more constructive is or can be gained by Satan or his minions in their fallen state. Not being able to control his own fate has no doubt contributed to maniacal schemes to seize control once 2 Thessalonians 2:10 states For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
What we see from Revelation 17:16 is men (10 kings of the earth) destroying the woman on the Beast which is the false world religious system the first half of the Tribulation. This is no doubt to allow their beloved Antichrist to fulfill Satan's desire that he alone is worshipped and this facilitates their ability to have worldwide rulership for that short 3 and a half year time frame. There is much detail as to how the false religious system is a smokescreen; or a means to an end along with the parallel influence of a false prosperity for some in the worldwide economic boom as it were; which apparently extends even further the already bloated super rich class from others who are dying like flies from the plagues and poverty on the earth from the earlier seal and ensuing beginning of the Trumpet judgments. More study on this timing can be pursued later.
All who worship the Beast are NOT in the Lamb's book of life; the mark seals the deal
Thank you bro Ronald for those added comments. I do understand why you, as well as many others, understand the coming of Jesus as a single one-time event. And ordinarily, if it were not for Paul's writings on these end-time events, I too, could very well accept this. And for the rest of what you have shared here, I respect your views and they certainly could make more sense if this 'rapture inclusion' was excluded.
Of course, whether the Great Tribulation and God's Wrath have the same meaning or not, is again according to one's reading of the Scripture. As mentioned previously, 2 Thessalonians 2:6,7, "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way", are probably the verses that to me, instigate God's Wrath/Great Tribulation which then gets progressively worse for the World.
If the One Who restrains (whether the Holy Spirit or the Church or something else for argument's sake), is removed by God or allowed to be removed by Him, it tells me that God has begun His action to allow the Anti-Christ, who resembles Satan incarnate (v9), to begin his reign, evil work, all in fulfilment of God's end-time Plan. In other words, it's all downhill from this point - as I see it anyway. Now, whether living believers will be present at that time of God's initial action against the World, or at some later time remove them, I can't say for sure (the Bible is unclear). Onto Page 2.
My understanding of the coming of Jesus, the first resurrection, and the gathering of saints to Him, which I see as a one-time event. I understand many may disagree, but I feel in my heart that the teaching of the rapture as a separate event may be incorrect. We must understand that in Revelation, the events recorded in the book are not a linear timeline.
Jesus returns only once, which is what Paul warns about. In 2 Timothy 2:16-18, I believe Paul is addressing the same issue he talks about in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8. Paul says, Let no man deceive you by any means, and he is speaking about the coming of the Lord. He states that that day will not come unless there is a falling away first, meaning apostasy or a turning away from faith, and the revealing of the man of sin, the son of perdition, which signifies destruction.
Both of these events must happen before Jesus returns. Just as back then, false teachings about the timing and details of Jesus' return, as I feel the idea of a separate rapture, many are expecting something that is not going to happen, and when it becomes evident to those still here, that moment will lead to the falling away. I feel great tribulation and the wrath of God are not the same.
When Jesus returns, we observe the first resurrection, the battle of Armageddon, and the judgment of those in the first resurrection in Revelation 19:11 through Revelation 20:4-6. This judgment includes those who did not worship the beast or take his mark. This proves it is after the great tribulation. Those who fought with Jesus in this battle are the chosen and faithful, Revelation 17:14. These are the ones in the first resurrection; they will reign with Jesus on earth, not in heaven.
Thank you, brother, for this discussion that I feel is very important and will continue to study. It is up to each of us to pray in search of the truth.
And of course Paul writes in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3: "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition". To assure the believers in that Church, Paul writes that the Day of Christ's appearing and our GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM, will only come after a falling away & the revelation of the Anti-Christ. After this happens, Christ appears & we are gathered (the Rapture & Resurrection of 1 Thessalonians chap 4?) unto Him. Then the Great Tribulation begins, as God's Wrath is displayed first in its infancy (the removing of His Restrainer), then with increasing suffering, culminating in Matthew 24:29,30.
Your reference to Revelation 12:12 has bearing on the whole chapter and I perceive we don't understand it the same way and it would be too long to exegete here. Then to Revelation 19:7-9, comparing with Revelation 21:9-11. I can see the connection that the Lamb's wife is the New Jerusalem as stated here, but when we read Revelation 19:7-9, we see that 'she (the New Jerusalem?) hath made herself ready; she would be arrayed in fine white linen which is the righteousness of the saints (can a city or a people be so arrayed?); and there is to be a marriage supper (with a city?)'. This can be quite confusing if one is to believe that Jesus is marrying a city. Or maybe, there are two references: of a city & the Church represented together in marriage. I can't tell. To Page 3.
Thank you for your input here bro. Ronald. From my little research, I agree with you that when we consider the writings of the early Church fathers, there was generally an understanding of a rapture, but not necessarily a pre-tribulational one. So, it could well be that Darby, Irving, Scofield, et al, pushed this teaching which has become accepted by many today. However, as I tried to convey in my post to GiGi, my position on this is not based on the beliefs of those venerable men, but from personal Scriptural examination of associated Scriptures.
To state, I don't believe that the Rapture of the saints is a resurrection. My understanding of a resurrection (and I could be corrected), is that one has to be dead first to be resurrected; the Rapture I don't see as a resurrection, but a 'catching away' of living believers. And with the deceased being resurrected, they come out of the grave (or wherever) and stand on terra firma & not being raised to enter Heaven. And these resurrected saints, will go on to reign with Christ during His Millennial Rule. Reference to this will come up when I respond later on to GiGi's comment to me.
Re: the Great Tribulation & the Wrath of God. I can understand that this phrase (Great Tribulation) can certainly imply 'a greater intensity of suffering and persecution than before'. But why do I connect this with the Wrath of God? In 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8, Paul writes of the Restrainer removed by God so that not only will The Anti-Christ appear & be installed, but all the horrors associated with his rule will fall on Earth's inhabitants. I see that as a pre-cursor to the Great Tribulation (of God's Wrath) commencing at this time, when God initiates an act to bring forth a time of suffering leading to greater suffering for those decided to spurn His Love. To Page 2.
a) Revelation 3:10 (to the Philadelphian Church). This refers to the final seven year tribulation period in which the antichrist will be allowed to deceive the world ( 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12). Believers can have hope that should this final period come to pass in their lifetimes, they will be kept from having to face God's wrath during the tribulation period; and this Great Tribulation as Jesus spoke about (in Matthew 24:21-31) is the Day of God's Wrath, from which the Church is to be kept from. Even in Zephaniah 2:3, a little glimpse is given of those who will be "hid in the day of the LORD's ANGER".
b) 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and 1 Thessalonians 1:10: believers are not appointed to bear God's Wrath but to receive His salvation from it. While it is true that God's wrath is most fully poured out in the sentencing of unbelievers to hell, Revelation 6:15-17 makes it clear that God's wrath is also being poured out upon the earth during the tribulation period (for that is what it means) and believers will not be a part of that. However, those who come to faith during the tribulation will have to suffer the effects of God's wrath, not having received the promise of being kept from the hour of trial. But those days will be cut short for His Elect's sake ( Matthew 24:22).
c) Revelation 19:7-9. The Church is already in Heaven with the Lord, clothed & prepared for the marriage of the Lamb. It is following this that Jesus is seen with the armies of heaven coming to earth to lie waste the armies of the earth and to cast the beast and false prophet into the Lake of Fire ( Revelation 19:11-21). Thus, the church must have already been raptured and taken to heaven before Jesus comes the second time. To Page 3.
I have enjoyed this discussion. We agree on many points. Salvation is a gift from God that we cannot earn, and nothing can take it from us. I know you and others believe one cannot walk away or fall away, but to me, that is what is going to happen, as told us in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. We cannot see into a person's heart; only God can, but I have seen people like the one I mentioned before totally change from who they were and never repent and return.
2 Thessalonians 2:3, falling away meaning apostasy, this is to happen before Jesus returns. This will be an enormous betrayal of the faith, as in 1 Timothy 4:1. My understanding this would not be an apostasy if these people were not saved in the faith of Jesus.
We are not far apart. First, to answer your question, will I walk away? The answer is NO! I know Romans 1:28 didn't fit, but it reflects what I was thinking of someone I knew when I wrote it. Only God knows the heart of man. What was in my mind was a person I knew, and anyone who knew them would say this person was a true Christian.
This person lost a child, and they completely changed. Over time, they turned into the opposite of who they were, and this verse fits what I saw happen to this person. This is one of the reasons I believe someone can fall away; only God knows if that is what happened. John 6:44, we may see this as the gospel today, the words of God are preached, which draws people, but that is not coming to Christ himself.
Then we have Matthew 22:14: Many are called, but few are chosen. Some who hear will fully embrace it and be accepted by God, while others will not. We are drawn or called, but is it not up to us to go and believe?
How do we understand verses like Hebrews 3:12-14? This is directed at those in Christ. 1 Timothy 4:1-2, My understanding, this goes with 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and Revelation 13:7-10; here is the patience of the saints. This is a true falling away, John 1.5:4-6; we must continue to abide in Him. Romans 11:19-22, we can be cut off.
James 1:12 is another blessed is a man that endureth, if he does, he will receive a crown of life. As in Revelation 2:10, faithful unto death. I respect you, but to me, there are too many warnings to endure and overcome until our death. We cannot ignore that; we must encourage each other to stay strong in our faith.
Not to spark another debate, I believe the great falling away is connected to when the beast rises and the persecution begins. Many think they will be taken out, but are not; they will be here. My understanding is Christ will never forsake us; the only thing that can separate us from Him is us.
Thank you for the reply. Mutual respect and love to you, my brother. We as believers have love for one another because His Spirit gives us that ability.
As far as enduring to the end, a true believer will endure to the end. I touched on this during my Greek studies. Our English bible makes it sound like it is a challenge, "if" we endure to the end. But in the Greek text, it is not a challenge. We endure to the end because His Spirit gives us the ability to do so. It's not a challenge. Enduring to the end shows proof of those who are saved.
Salvation is all of God. We cannot save ourselves. If you believe you must endure to the end for your salvation, how do you do that without involving human works?
In 2 Thessalonians 2:3, I do not see this speaking about saved believers falling away. Yes, there will be a falling away (Apostasy) first, but not a falling away of saved believers.
Paul speaks on this in 1 Timothy 4:1 where he says, "now the Spirit speaks expressly that in the latter times, some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of demons." We have that in our day. There are many people in cult groups who profess to be Christian but are chasing after false doctrines and teachings.
So, as you mentioned, there must be an apostasy first. This falling away will be those who profess to be Christians but belong to various cult groups. They are the ones who will be deceived into chasing after Satan's lies. The deception will be easy for them, and they are the ones who will fall away.
I respect and love you, but I must reply. Many Scriptures tell us we must endure to the end, to me, that's until we die; it is a lifetime journey, not a one-time event. Some Scriptures say some will walk away/fall away, but I will not list them.
There's a verse that says Jesus will not return until there's a falling away, 2 Thessalonians 2:3. This falling away involves saved people facing the beast that is to come. They are willing to give up the gift of eternity rather than face the death of this body. You cannot fall away from something you've never been part of. Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints states that true believers will stay faithful until the end. Still, the warnings, which I won't list, about falling away serve as a sober reminder of the importance of vigilance and depending on God's grace to stay steady, stay in the race.
As I said in another post, I feel the saying once saved, always saved may be false hope for someone weak.
While we can't hold all spiritual truths to the exclusion of the Tribulation there are some things; no doubt functionally that He will work with once the church is removed and the restrainer mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Joel 2:32 states along with verses in Romans that all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved; but the focus in Joel is no doubt the Tribulation with God's judgments on the earth; albeit the earlier fulfillment at Pentecost.
There are other verses which warn in the end that although men cry out to the Lord He will not hear them and they are destroyed.
Whatever happens at Armageddon; no doubt the fate of those are sealed who have taken the mark and fight against Christ at His return.
In terms of Predestination I quote in Revelation 13:8
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
This fits into other scripture such as Daniel 12:10 that only the wise will understand what is going on at that time.
Thus; the finality of the wheat separated from the chaff occurs. I would say that begins with the false one world religious "Babylon" which has an economic and religious headquarters and power structure. The beast himself destroys this at the midpoint of the Tribulation in accordance with the wishes of the 10 rulers who rule with him for one hour so as to receive worship only for himself. ( Rev. 17:16).
We all need to remember that this horrible time; the worst the world has ever or will ever again endure is all in God's plan to finish the work of purifying His people including the nation of Israel ( Zechariah 13:8 and many other verses). His saints; therefore will be the living testimony along with Christ's physical return of His faithfulness and will usher in the promised Millennial reign. Sadly that will end with one more rebellion; sinful man can never learn on their own.
In tandem with my earlier post I thought it would be good to consider what it means to walk in the Spirit. I am underscoring this message with what should be an obvious general attitude and spiritual mindset of loving and obeying the Lord; having personal time with the Lord; having a forgiving and open heart; and service whenever able to help to be a support in the Christian community.
I feel unqualified based on my own history to comment on this subject based on personal experience; but I will say that a godly husband and wife can do much with maintaining a testimony in their personal conduct as well as whenever possible opening up their home for prayer meetings; or Bible study. Interaction among families is stronger depending on the demographics of a fellowship and maturity of one's walk in the Lord.
We are ever mindful of Revelation 3:11 and I thought I should also quote the previous verse:
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
I will say once again as I have before that may His work be done; let someone else take my reward for the sake of reaching lost souls; for His purposes to be accomplished and so that I can join in acclamation of their reward justly deserved. I'll deal with my own loss privately there is no reason in heaven; of course for unwarranted jealousy.
The Spirit works in a believer; and no doubt is involved as the restrainer ( 2 Thessalonians 2:3). God will use a donkey if necessary; and also in the end of the Tribulation will use mighty angels for a final warning for those living under the Antichrist's rule to worship God and not take the mark.
I'll have to continue these thoughts in the next post.
Chris has given you a good reply. However, if we examine the saying, "once saved, always saved," it can be true or false; we can use Scripture to support or refute it. So where does that leave us?
In John 3:16, it says that if we believe in Jesus, we will be saved. Jesus promises never to fail. Salvation is based on the grace of God, through faith, not by our efforts, Ephesians 2:8-9. Our salvation depends on the righteousness of Christ and God's mercy, Titus 3:5.
We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23-24. We are justified not by works of the law but by faith, Galatians 2:16. We are called not because of our works but because of God's purpose and grace given to us through Jesus, 2 Timothy 1:9.
Our salvation is founded on our faith in Jesus Christ. In John 10:27-29, we are His sheep, hear His voice, follow Him, and are granted eternal life, which no one can take from His hand. Our salvation is secure because it relies on Jesus' work. As Hebrews 10:23 states, we are to hold fast to our faith without wavering because He is faithful.
Conversely, there is the risk of apostasy or falling away. Luke 8:4-15 illustrates this. In verse 13, it describes someone who received the word with joy and believed for a while but fell away when tempted. This person was a believer who later turned away; individuals can walk away on their own.
We must live by faith and be led by the Spirit. Paul says in Colossians 1:23, "If ye continue in the faith." We also see in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 about the great falling away when the beast rises, along with many other verses too numerous to list that emphasize we must endure to the end, like Revelation 2:10, also we are told to hold fast. If we remain strong in our faith, nothing can take our salvation away.
I understand that some say those who fall away were never truly saved, but I do not see that supported by Scripture, and it may be false hope for one who is weak.
Living by example: The good; bad and the ugly
Revisiting the theme from the last post; let's consider the situation where someone fails in a mission through no obvious fault of their own. In the example of witnessing in a dangerous neighborhood an incident can quickly arise that abruptly ends our attempts at sharing God's truth. No computer can give us wisdom to fall to our knees and pray; or tell us where to go and when to move on. Paul faced times such as the desire to go to Bithynia and the Spirit said NO; and other times when he was called elsewhere (such as the call to go instead to Macedonia). When someone is in need we can discover what we are supposed to do but not how to help. In Acts we read about someone that couldn't be helped with silver or gold but was healed by Peter ( Acts 3:6) during the time of his unique unction.
We can no more explain God's calling and choosing to reveal Himself to a previously dead heart than we can explain a heart of unbelief that Satan has blinded and who cannot find objective truth (such as the Pharisees finding a need to ask for a sign after all of Christ's miracles). Judas' betrayal made no sense when all the riches of heaven were there for the asking if he would only believe.
In short the spiritual dimension is only comprehended by someone with an eternal soul; namely man albeit the animal kingdom and all of creation reacts to what is happening but only men can truly be judged based on eternal truths evident in the creation as Romans 1 states either sentenced to eternal condemnation or eternal reward of heaven's joy depending on their spiritual state.
What the world doesn't get is that once we are removed as "salt and light" that once 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 occurs (the restrainer removed) the preverbal you know what is going to hit the fan. Antichrist somehow will be able to craft a deception uniquely appealing to every particular person (AI?)
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. ( 1 Corinthians 1:25).
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. ( Romans 1:22-25).
2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Man has often sought one of two courses. The first result of man's degenerate state is wars; whether we look at the first murder involving Cain the firstborn son of Adam and Eve and their second child Abel; or the wars early on in Genesis and overall violence and corruption of the earth. The second is the attempt to replicate a "utopia" on earth. Often especially with the kings; emporers and dictators that came later on we see both occuring at the same time. This theme was apparent in ancient Rome and Greece where the materialism along with worship of idols led to eventual moral malaise and the self destruction within of civilizations which we see so often today.
It is clear that we are heading for the final consummation; the final dictatorship of the Beast Antichrist so clearly described in Revelation; and seen in repeated past rulers who partially fulfilled the prophecies as to the character. His end is thus ( Psalm 2:9-10)
The Lord will devour them in his anger,
and fire will consume them.
10 None of their descendants will survive;
the king will kill them all.
Always keep in mind that we CANNOT escape judgment without Christ; OR the call to worship Antichrist if unregenerate.
I assume you mean Jehovah's Witnesses when you said JW's, but I assure you I am not. I understand many believe in the rapture of the Church, but I do not. I can't say that it's wrong; that would just lead to debate. We can share our understanding in hopes of inspiring each other to seek the truth.
Revelation is filled with images and visions given to John. In my understanding, if we look at Revelation 7, where people from the tribes of Israel and all nations that cannot be numbered are described, verses 14-17 refer to a time after everything is over, when God wipes away all our tears.
This is similar to what we see in Matthew 17 when Jesus took Peter, James, and John up on the mountain, where they saw Jesus' transfiguration. Jesus said it was a vision in verse 9. My understanding is that it was a vision because if Moses and Elijah were really there, Jesus would not be called the Firstfruits of those who slept, as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:20.
Looking at 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 it discusses the Lord's coming and the first resurrection. Paul also touches on this in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. This coming is announced with a shout, the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God, as seen in Revelation 11.
In my view, in none of the verses regarding Jesus' second coming does it say He will carry the saints of the first resurrection back to heaven. My understanding is that all who are Christ's, when He returns, will be gathered to meet Him as He descends to earth, as described in Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Corinthians 15:52, at the last trump, and Revelation 11:15-18. We will reign with Him on earth, Revelation 5:10.
There are only two resurrections of the dead in Scripture: the first, in Revelation 20:4-6, and the second, in Revelation 20:11-15. My understanding is that Jesus does not return to heaven after He comes back; if He does, that would mean three resurrections.
God bless,
RLW
Thanks for your reply. I understand many see this as comfort, similar to what you hear at a funeral when the preacher says Bob is with Jesus in heaven. Am I going to tell that loved one No, he is not? NO, but what is the actual truth?
Ecclesiastes 9:5, if we die, we know nothing. Psalms 115:17 I believe that if our spirit were alive in heaven, we would be praising the LORD. Our only hope of eternal life is in Jesus; this comes when we are resurrected, not before, 1 Corinthians 15:52-54.
Not to drag this out, I will say, if we all have an immortal spirit, there is no death and no true gift of eternal life because we already possess it. John 3:15, John 10:28, Romans 2:7, Romans 6:23, 1 John 2:25. This is our promise. The others receive death; they will perish, John 3:16, 2 Thessalonians 2:10, 2 Peter 2:12. The word perish is to destroy fully, permanent, absolute destruction. Revelation 21:8 their part, their punishment, and death will fit their sins, not burn for eternity.
Death is not a separation, as Greek philosophy puts it, which has influenced today's understanding.
Thanks again, brother,
God bless,
RLW
In the first passage I quoted, Paul's teaching was that the spirits of the deceased believers were already in Heaven and that at His Coming, Jesus would bring them with Him and their bodies buried in the earth would join with their spirits. So the believers should be assured that God had not forgotten those who were in their graves at His Coming, since they were very much alive with Him & together would join with those living believers on Earth. At least, that is how I read that passage.
Then in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, where the believers believed that the Day of Christ had already come & somehow had missed that event, or maybe it was all a lie. Paul assures them that the Day of Christ (or when Christ appears) & "our gathering together unto him" (i.e. the Rapture of Paul's first letter) will not happen until there is a great 'falling away & revealing of the man of sin'.
And then Paul goes on to elaborate on this 'man of sin', the anti-Christ who presents himself as God & demands worship. But he hasn't appeared on the scene as yet because God has set a restrainer to prevent him coming to power. But when that restrainer is removed, then the beginning of great Tribulation begins, primarily to Israel I suspect (according to Jesus' teachings in the Gospels). But you ask, "who is taken away? The anti Christ". Onto Page 2.
I agree, when Jesus returns, it will not be a secret, as all the Scriptures proclaim, it will be with the sound of the trumpet, the last trumpet, 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 11:15. As you said, every eye shall see Him coming in the clouds, Revelation 1:7, Revelation 19:11-16.
The resurrection of the righteous, which is the first resurrection, will happen at Christ's return, Revelation 19:11-16, Revelation 20:4-6. Scripture does not say Jesus goes back to heaven. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Paul is comforting them that those who are asleep/dead in Christ would not be left out of the return of Christ and the resurrection. Nowhere in these verses does it say we are taken to heaven.
If we read and study Scriptures with preconceived assumptions, it fogs the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is about the return of Jesus and our gathering together unto Him on earth, at His coming. It says do not let man deceive you because Jesus will not return until two things happen. The falling away/apostasy, and the man of sin is revealed.
Revelation 19:20 is where the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. In Revelation 17:14, they are the ones in the first resurrection who are in the battle of Armageddon with Jesus, and in Revelation 20:4 are the ones in the first resurrection who are being judged at the judgment seat of Christ, here on earth.
God bless,
RLW
However, in verse 7b, "only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way". If you read it like this: 'only he who now letteth (or, restrains), will continue to restrain, until he (i.e. the one who is doing the restraining) is taken out of the way (i.e. the restraining barrier is now removed)'. Only after this barrier is removed then will the Wicked one be revealed (v8), who will be consumed/destroyed by the Lord Jesus at His Coming. Can you see the difference in our understanding of this passage?
You read it as the 'anti Christ is taken away' and I read it as the 'restrainer is taken away'. In my understanding, it is the restraining force that has to be removed by God before the anti-Christ is revealed, or else, what would be the need of a restrainer (as also in verse 6, "withholdeth)? But I can see how you read this, if the word "letteth" is not 'restrain' but to 'allow'. So, you might read it as, 'God is allowing the anti-Christ to rule until he is then removed later by God'. But the Greek word for "letteth" is 'katecho' and that means 'to hold fast, to restrain, to keep'. So, I believe that the word 'restrain' is the right word to use in this instance and not 'allow', which then means that God restrains the anti-Christ from appearing, but once God removes His Restrainer, then anti-Christ appears and all that follows from that. And after the anti-Christ's course on Earth is finished, Jesus at His appearing, will destroy him. GBU.
Thanks for responding!
Revelation 3:20 is something to think about!
The church of the Laodiceans!
This is a proud group and lukewarm!
In their mind they were in need of nothing!
Jesus said "knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
And then we come to verse 20) Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
He's standing outside knocking, not to come in!
He's calling out individuals! " if any man hear my voice,"
You also quoted, "Mathew 16:18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
The gates of hell shall not prevail against it!
What a saying that is!
Gates are put up for defense!
He's saying these defensive gates will not prevail against the Church!
This is one of many reason why I believe the Antichrist can't come until the Church is removed.
It puts 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 in perspective and also the saints mentioned in Daniel 7:25 couldn't be talking about the Church.
Blessings.
Thanks and that's a great question about the Tribulation.
From a dispensational view, the Great Tribulation ( Mt 24:21) and the Day of God's Wrath ( 1 Th 5:9) are distinct in emphasis yet coordinated within Daniel's 70th week ( Dan 9:27). The Day of the Lord is the overarching heavenly program of judgment; the Great Tribulation is the intense, earth-side experience-especially the last 3 years-when the beast persecutes Israel and the nations ( Mt 24:15,21; Rev 12-13; Jer 30:7).
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 marks the transition: the Restrainer is "taken out of the way," the man of sin is revealed, and the Day of the Lord proceeds. Most see the Restrainer as the Spirit's restraining work through the Church; at the catching away that restraint is lifted ( 1 Th 4:16-18; 2 Th 2:6-7). This does not make evil sovereign; it means God judicially permits lawlessness to ripen so He may judge it openly.
Revelation shows judgment initiating from heaven as the Lamb breaks the seals ( Rev 4-6). Seals, trumpets, and bowls are decrees from the throne, answering the martyrs' cry and culminating in the King's appearing ( Rev 6:9-11; 19). Thus the Day of Wrath is truly a continuum: it begins with restraint lifted, escalates to direct plagues, and finally crests in the cosmic dissolution Peter describes ( 2 Pet 3:7-12).
Romans 1 helps explain the "early phase" you sense: God's wrath is already "revealed from heaven" when He gives society over to its chosen rebellion ( Rom 1:18,24,26,28). Applied eschatologically, the removal of restraint is itself an act of wrath-God handing the world to the consequences of rejecting truth ( 2 Th 2:10-12).
Therefore, while Great Tribulation and Day of Wrath can be distinguished (earthly persecution vs. heavenly initiative), they belong to one coherent action of God from heaven that begins with removing the Restrainer and runs through world-ending judgment, after which the promised kingdom is installed ( Rev 20; Acts 3:19-21).
Grace and Peace
Yet, the question that I deal with is: if the Great Tribulation ( Matthew 24:21) and the Day of God's Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 1:18) are different events, but pertaining to Daniel's 70th week, is it possible that they are actually part of the same action of God in Heaven? When I read 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, I sense that this period of time starts with the removal of the Restrainer and the revelation of the 'man of sin'. Even though we don't see that great outpouring of God's Wrath upon the world ( 2 Peter 3:7-12, and others) leading to the destruction of the world and evil men, I feel that God's Wrath in its early stages of revelation when He removes His Restrainer that has thus far held the world to some degree of normalcy and decency, though now rapidly degenerating.
I take the example of a dam, holding back a large volume of water from passing to the other side. When water is to be released, the release valves are opened incrementally letting out a little water at a time, or else there would be catastrophic consequences to the inhabitants on the other side. Likewise, when God's 'valves' begin to open (i.e. His Wrath begins as He removes His Restrainer & all that brings), the world might know that their time is short & the little suffering that life threw at them, will be insurmountably horrendous. GBU.
From a dispensational perspective, the rapture ( 1 Thess. 4:16-17; 1 Cor. 15:51-52) is the catching away of the Body of Christ before God's wrath is poured out on the world. Once the church is removed, God resumes His prophetic program with Israel. At that point, the Antichrist arises, confirming a covenant with many for seven years ( Dan. 9:27). This initiates the tribulation period, divided into the first half of false peace and the second half of unparalleled persecution, known as "the time of Jacob's trouble" ( Jer. 30:7).
In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, Paul reassures the Thessalonians who feared they had missed "the day of Christ." He reminds them two prophetic events must occur before Christ's second advent to earth: (1) a "falling away" (apostasia), and (2) the revelation of the man of sin, the Antichrist. The key distinction lies in understanding Paul's use of "our gathering together unto him" (v. 1) as the rapture, which he taught was imminent and without signs. The "day of Christ" (often used interchangeably with "day of the Lord" in prophetic context) refers not to the rapture but to the coming judgment and tribulation leading to Christ's visible return.
Thus, Paul is not teaching that the rapture cannot happen until the apostasy and Antichrist appear; rather, he comforts believers that the fearful "day" they dreaded had not arrived, since those events were not yet in motion. For the Body of Christ, the blessed hope is always imminent. The falling away and the Antichrist's revelation belong to Israel's prophetic timeline after the church's removal. Once the church is gone, those left-unbelieving Gentiles and Israel-will see these signs unfold.
In short, dispensationalism harmonizes the passages by keeping programs distinct: the church is raptured prior to the tribulation, while the apostasy and Antichrist belong to the prophetic sequence that unfolds afterward.
I hope you don't mind me asking just a few questions. I am trying to follow. I understand, as you have presented, the Church is raptured, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, and taken to heaven. You say, "Rightly dividing the scriptures and letting scripture interpret scripture". Where in these Scriptures does it say we are taken to heaven?
You say the rapture is before the seals, trumpets, and bowls; these three are the wrath of God. How does that agree with 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52? Do you see the rapture as secret?
You say that after the rapture, the antichrist rises, and the 7-year tribulation starts, where only those not in the body of Christ and Israelites are left. How does that agree with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, where Paul is comforting them not to worry that the coming of the Lord will not happen, before there is a falling away/apostasy, and the man of sin is revealed?
Will the Church/the body of Christ be in heaven or on earth during the 1000 years?
Is the great tribulation and the wrath of God the same thing?
Thank you, I hope I have quoted you correctly.
God bless,
RLW
In considering the end times; where we certainly are headed quickly as I see it-we see that proclamations are made beforehand as to the general state of the "last days" such as attitudes of people in 2 Timothy 3 as well as with the 144,000 and the 2 prophets in Revelation. We also see angels themselves as we get to the time the bowl judgments are about to occur as a final warning.
In reality; of course for an unregenerate person it only seals their fate and increases their judgment once their impenitent hearts are challenged. The lack of love of the truth ( 2 Thessalonians 2:10) allows the world to accept the Daniel 9:27 covenant also known as the covenant with death and hell in Isaiah 28:18 which is deliberately agreed upon despite the obvious ramifications.
People as they do now will hear what they want to hear and disregard the rest. As with the Prophets of old God says He will do nothing without first revealing the matter to the prophets ( Amos 3:7); and we see this process most clearly it seems with Jeremiah but also of course with the warnings in Deuteronomy as to blessings and cursings. Deuteronomy 30:19 says to choose life and live but of course Jeremiah 17:9 shows the human heart is desperately wicked and who can understand it?
Again a repeated concept here that I have mentioned is that the world is aware of what's coming. It is the same sort of idea when Christ came the first time with the Pharisees denying the obvious and committing the unpardonable blasphemy against the Spirit saying that it is evil; and likely the same sort of thing will be heard by the son of perdition and the world at large once judgments start to fall as we see several times during the bowl judgments ( 2 Thessalonians 2:3). He will say "unheard of" things against the Most High ( Daniel 11:36) and will come in his own name yet declare himself to be god (see John 5:43).
We need to be ready to desire seeing the Day of the Lord ( Amos 5:18
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14:
This truth is exactly what the Apostle Paul is teaching in his second letter to the Thessalonians. In 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Paul declares that God has chosen His people "from the beginning unto salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." (v. 13-14). This means that the whole process of repentance, faith, and obedience is not something that originates in man, but it is the outworking of God's sovereign choice and the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit.
The evidences that God is already at work within that person. When God draws a sinner, He grants them both the will and the ability to repent and to believe. Paul emphasizes that salvation is by "belief of the truth," but that belief itself is a gift produced by the Spirit's sanctifying work.
Therefore, we understand that the New Resurrected Soul and the continual growth in grace are direct fulfillments of what Paul describes: being called by the Gospel so that we may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is entirely the work of God, from beginning to end, and it gives the believer assurance that what God has begun He will also complete.
13 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.[b]
16 "Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me."
These statements seemed to come out before these 70 were sent out; if not at the time they were out there. Whatever the case it shows how quickly the doom of these places was declared and that it appears they only had one fleeting moment (in general) to come to the truth. Of course this doesn't stop a few from coming to true faith but speaks overall of the cities and their mindset and overall lack of faith. It also reinforces the message given means rejection of Christ and God the Father as we see from the end of verse 16.
These passages also illustrate the RESPONSIBILITY people have alongside their predestined outcome. We can argue whether their reaction was predestined or their fate to not be able to believe. The fact is BOTH seem to be clear from scripture; just as faith comes from hearing the Word ( Romans 10:17) that is God's methodology to reach those elected; called and chosen or Predestined whatever word we wish to use to describe these things has the same concept. Or to put it another way we read in 2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Hence; knowledge of the truth alone doesn't save. We still are given minds that intersect and commune with our souls and we make a public declaration of what is in our hearts through our mouth; also stated in Romans. With more knowledge we have greater judgment.
It is clear from Revelation 13 that all those worshipping the Antichrist go on to taking his mark and these are all individuals not in the Book of Life; predetermined before time itself it appears here.
I can't speak for anyone else here but I have had times many years ago when I was not right with God about being compelled to take the mark; as a sort of vision of the future and horror is an understatement for the pure terror I felt. Now I have discussed before what seems to indicate some who are left behind; but I am considering the state here of whoever is in the Tribulation. Man may indeed be terrified and serve Satan with fear who are unregenerate but the emphasis of scripture is rejection of God because men would not LOVE the truth and be saved. 2 Thessalonians 2:10 puts it this way: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Our Lord often stated let this sink into your ears; and this is one of those cases it seems. The sad truth and reality is that we all NOW would worship the Antichrist if we are unregenerate. Try that for size sharing the Gospel with someone; I wouldn't recommend it too often but if man cannot accept his sin nature that is a wake up call. As my "famous" quote states Satan is the equal opportunity destroyer; and (I'll borrow another common phrase) will use any means necessary to bring about his purpose and will. There will be no Atheists as I have shared before in regard to the 6th Seal by the time this mark ensues; and there will be no halfhearted followers. The signs and wonders will be worldwide and no doubt be more than sufficient to convince the masses to think that they indeed have utopia; and likely will live forever taking this mark. Perhaps some will glee in making themselves unredeemable through DNA alteration; in reality their souls already are lost.
Based on my last post; many seem to think that Satan gets great glee in deceiving souls and sending them to hell. Considering that he is going there himself he may be mad enough to somehow think he can avoid his fate but anyone else being there with him I doubt gives him any consolation. We are to him most likely a means to an end to achieve a dream that is destined to fail; that is worldwide worship as the Godhead has only reserved for itself and of course the only Creator to be praised. Unlike our Lord who chastises everyone He loves; and in fact allows those angels who haven't left their first estate to observe and learn from us; nothing more constructive is or can be gained by Satan or his minions in their fallen state. Not being able to control his own fate has no doubt contributed to maniacal schemes to seize control once 2 Thessalonians 2:10 states For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
What we see from Revelation 17:16 is men (10 kings of the earth) destroying the woman on the Beast which is the false world religious system the first half of the Tribulation. This is no doubt to allow their beloved Antichrist to fulfill Satan's desire that he alone is worshipped and this facilitates their ability to have worldwide rulership for that short 3 and a half year time frame. There is much detail as to how the false religious system is a smokescreen; or a means to an end along with the parallel influence of a false prosperity for some in the worldwide economic boom as it were; which apparently extends even further the already bloated super rich class from others who are dying like flies from the plagues and poverty on the earth from the earlier seal and ensuing beginning of the Trumpet judgments. More study on this timing can be pursued later.
All who worship the Beast are NOT in the Lamb's book of life; the mark seals the deal
Of course, whether the Great Tribulation and God's Wrath have the same meaning or not, is again according to one's reading of the Scripture. As mentioned previously, 2 Thessalonians 2:6,7, "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way", are probably the verses that to me, instigate God's Wrath/Great Tribulation which then gets progressively worse for the World.
If the One Who restrains (whether the Holy Spirit or the Church or something else for argument's sake), is removed by God or allowed to be removed by Him, it tells me that God has begun His action to allow the Anti-Christ, who resembles Satan incarnate (v9), to begin his reign, evil work, all in fulfilment of God's end-time Plan. In other words, it's all downhill from this point - as I see it anyway. Now, whether living believers will be present at that time of God's initial action against the World, or at some later time remove them, I can't say for sure (the Bible is unclear). Onto Page 2.
My understanding of the coming of Jesus, the first resurrection, and the gathering of saints to Him, which I see as a one-time event. I understand many may disagree, but I feel in my heart that the teaching of the rapture as a separate event may be incorrect. We must understand that in Revelation, the events recorded in the book are not a linear timeline.
Jesus returns only once, which is what Paul warns about. In 2 Timothy 2:16-18, I believe Paul is addressing the same issue he talks about in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8. Paul says, Let no man deceive you by any means, and he is speaking about the coming of the Lord. He states that that day will not come unless there is a falling away first, meaning apostasy or a turning away from faith, and the revealing of the man of sin, the son of perdition, which signifies destruction.
Both of these events must happen before Jesus returns. Just as back then, false teachings about the timing and details of Jesus' return, as I feel the idea of a separate rapture, many are expecting something that is not going to happen, and when it becomes evident to those still here, that moment will lead to the falling away. I feel great tribulation and the wrath of God are not the same.
When Jesus returns, we observe the first resurrection, the battle of Armageddon, and the judgment of those in the first resurrection in Revelation 19:11 through Revelation 20:4-6. This judgment includes those who did not worship the beast or take his mark. This proves it is after the great tribulation. Those who fought with Jesus in this battle are the chosen and faithful, Revelation 17:14. These are the ones in the first resurrection; they will reign with Jesus on earth, not in heaven.
Thank you, brother, for this discussion that I feel is very important and will continue to study. It is up to each of us to pray in search of the truth.
God bless,
RLW
And of course Paul writes in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3: "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition". To assure the believers in that Church, Paul writes that the Day of Christ's appearing and our GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM, will only come after a falling away & the revelation of the Anti-Christ. After this happens, Christ appears & we are gathered (the Rapture & Resurrection of 1 Thessalonians chap 4?) unto Him. Then the Great Tribulation begins, as God's Wrath is displayed first in its infancy (the removing of His Restrainer), then with increasing suffering, culminating in Matthew 24:29,30.
Your reference to Revelation 12:12 has bearing on the whole chapter and I perceive we don't understand it the same way and it would be too long to exegete here. Then to Revelation 19:7-9, comparing with Revelation 21:9-11. I can see the connection that the Lamb's wife is the New Jerusalem as stated here, but when we read Revelation 19:7-9, we see that 'she (the New Jerusalem?) hath made herself ready; she would be arrayed in fine white linen which is the righteousness of the saints (can a city or a people be so arrayed?); and there is to be a marriage supper (with a city?)'. This can be quite confusing if one is to believe that Jesus is marrying a city. Or maybe, there are two references: of a city & the Church represented together in marriage. I can't tell. To Page 3.
Thank you for your input here bro. Ronald. From my little research, I agree with you that when we consider the writings of the early Church fathers, there was generally an understanding of a rapture, but not necessarily a pre-tribulational one. So, it could well be that Darby, Irving, Scofield, et al, pushed this teaching which has become accepted by many today. However, as I tried to convey in my post to GiGi, my position on this is not based on the beliefs of those venerable men, but from personal Scriptural examination of associated Scriptures.
To state, I don't believe that the Rapture of the saints is a resurrection. My understanding of a resurrection (and I could be corrected), is that one has to be dead first to be resurrected; the Rapture I don't see as a resurrection, but a 'catching away' of living believers. And with the deceased being resurrected, they come out of the grave (or wherever) and stand on terra firma & not being raised to enter Heaven. And these resurrected saints, will go on to reign with Christ during His Millennial Rule. Reference to this will come up when I respond later on to GiGi's comment to me.
Re: the Great Tribulation & the Wrath of God. I can understand that this phrase (Great Tribulation) can certainly imply 'a greater intensity of suffering and persecution than before'. But why do I connect this with the Wrath of God? In 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8, Paul writes of the Restrainer removed by God so that not only will The Anti-Christ appear & be installed, but all the horrors associated with his rule will fall on Earth's inhabitants. I see that as a pre-cursor to the Great Tribulation (of God's Wrath) commencing at this time, when God initiates an act to bring forth a time of suffering leading to greater suffering for those decided to spurn His Love. To Page 2.
So to some pertinent portions from the Word:
a) Revelation 3:10 (to the Philadelphian Church). This refers to the final seven year tribulation period in which the antichrist will be allowed to deceive the world ( 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12). Believers can have hope that should this final period come to pass in their lifetimes, they will be kept from having to face God's wrath during the tribulation period; and this Great Tribulation as Jesus spoke about (in Matthew 24:21-31) is the Day of God's Wrath, from which the Church is to be kept from. Even in Zephaniah 2:3, a little glimpse is given of those who will be "hid in the day of the LORD's ANGER".
b) 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and 1 Thessalonians 1:10: believers are not appointed to bear God's Wrath but to receive His salvation from it. While it is true that God's wrath is most fully poured out in the sentencing of unbelievers to hell, Revelation 6:15-17 makes it clear that God's wrath is also being poured out upon the earth during the tribulation period (for that is what it means) and believers will not be a part of that. However, those who come to faith during the tribulation will have to suffer the effects of God's wrath, not having received the promise of being kept from the hour of trial. But those days will be cut short for His Elect's sake ( Matthew 24:22).
c) Revelation 19:7-9. The Church is already in Heaven with the Lord, clothed & prepared for the marriage of the Lamb. It is following this that Jesus is seen with the armies of heaven coming to earth to lie waste the armies of the earth and to cast the beast and false prophet into the Lake of Fire ( Revelation 19:11-21). Thus, the church must have already been raptured and taken to heaven before Jesus comes the second time. To Page 3.
I have enjoyed this discussion. We agree on many points. Salvation is a gift from God that we cannot earn, and nothing can take it from us. I know you and others believe one cannot walk away or fall away, but to me, that is what is going to happen, as told us in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. We cannot see into a person's heart; only God can, but I have seen people like the one I mentioned before totally change from who they were and never repent and return.
2 Thessalonians 2:3, falling away meaning apostasy, this is to happen before Jesus returns. This will be an enormous betrayal of the faith, as in 1 Timothy 4:1. My understanding this would not be an apostasy if these people were not saved in the faith of Jesus.
God bless,
RLW
We are not far apart. First, to answer your question, will I walk away? The answer is NO! I know Romans 1:28 didn't fit, but it reflects what I was thinking of someone I knew when I wrote it. Only God knows the heart of man. What was in my mind was a person I knew, and anyone who knew them would say this person was a true Christian.
This person lost a child, and they completely changed. Over time, they turned into the opposite of who they were, and this verse fits what I saw happen to this person. This is one of the reasons I believe someone can fall away; only God knows if that is what happened. John 6:44, we may see this as the gospel today, the words of God are preached, which draws people, but that is not coming to Christ himself.
Then we have Matthew 22:14: Many are called, but few are chosen. Some who hear will fully embrace it and be accepted by God, while others will not. We are drawn or called, but is it not up to us to go and believe?
How do we understand verses like Hebrews 3:12-14? This is directed at those in Christ. 1 Timothy 4:1-2, My understanding, this goes with 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and Revelation 13:7-10; here is the patience of the saints. This is a true falling away, John 1.5:4-6; we must continue to abide in Him. Romans 11:19-22, we can be cut off.
James 1:12 is another blessed is a man that endureth, if he does, he will receive a crown of life. As in Revelation 2:10, faithful unto death. I respect you, but to me, there are too many warnings to endure and overcome until our death. We cannot ignore that; we must encourage each other to stay strong in our faith.
Not to spark another debate, I believe the great falling away is connected to when the beast rises and the persecution begins. Many think they will be taken out, but are not; they will be here. My understanding is Christ will never forsake us; the only thing that can separate us from Him is us.
Thanks again, brother,
God bless,
RLW
(Part 1):
Thank you for the reply. Mutual respect and love to you, my brother. We as believers have love for one another because His Spirit gives us that ability.
As far as enduring to the end, a true believer will endure to the end. I touched on this during my Greek studies. Our English bible makes it sound like it is a challenge, "if" we endure to the end. But in the Greek text, it is not a challenge. We endure to the end because His Spirit gives us the ability to do so. It's not a challenge. Enduring to the end shows proof of those who are saved.
Salvation is all of God. We cannot save ourselves. If you believe you must endure to the end for your salvation, how do you do that without involving human works?
In 2 Thessalonians 2:3, I do not see this speaking about saved believers falling away. Yes, there will be a falling away (Apostasy) first, but not a falling away of saved believers.
Paul speaks on this in 1 Timothy 4:1 where he says, "now the Spirit speaks expressly that in the latter times, some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of demons." We have that in our day. There are many people in cult groups who profess to be Christian but are chasing after false doctrines and teachings.
So, as you mentioned, there must be an apostasy first. This falling away will be those who profess to be Christians but belong to various cult groups. They are the ones who will be deceived into chasing after Satan's lies. The deception will be easy for them, and they are the ones who will fall away.
I respect and love you, but I must reply. Many Scriptures tell us we must endure to the end, to me, that's until we die; it is a lifetime journey, not a one-time event. Some Scriptures say some will walk away/fall away, but I will not list them.
There's a verse that says Jesus will not return until there's a falling away, 2 Thessalonians 2:3. This falling away involves saved people facing the beast that is to come. They are willing to give up the gift of eternity rather than face the death of this body. You cannot fall away from something you've never been part of. Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints states that true believers will stay faithful until the end. Still, the warnings, which I won't list, about falling away serve as a sober reminder of the importance of vigilance and depending on God's grace to stay steady, stay in the race.
As I said in another post, I feel the saying once saved, always saved may be false hope for someone weak.
God bless,
RLW
While we can't hold all spiritual truths to the exclusion of the Tribulation there are some things; no doubt functionally that He will work with once the church is removed and the restrainer mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Joel 2:32 states along with verses in Romans that all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved; but the focus in Joel is no doubt the Tribulation with God's judgments on the earth; albeit the earlier fulfillment at Pentecost.
There are other verses which warn in the end that although men cry out to the Lord He will not hear them and they are destroyed.
Whatever happens at Armageddon; no doubt the fate of those are sealed who have taken the mark and fight against Christ at His return.
In terms of Predestination I quote in Revelation 13:8
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
This fits into other scripture such as Daniel 12:10 that only the wise will understand what is going on at that time.
Thus; the finality of the wheat separated from the chaff occurs. I would say that begins with the false one world religious "Babylon" which has an economic and religious headquarters and power structure. The beast himself destroys this at the midpoint of the Tribulation in accordance with the wishes of the 10 rulers who rule with him for one hour so as to receive worship only for himself. ( Rev. 17:16).
We all need to remember that this horrible time; the worst the world has ever or will ever again endure is all in God's plan to finish the work of purifying His people including the nation of Israel ( Zechariah 13:8 and many other verses). His saints; therefore will be the living testimony along with Christ's physical return of His faithfulness and will usher in the promised Millennial reign. Sadly that will end with one more rebellion; sinful man can never learn on their own.
In tandem with my earlier post I thought it would be good to consider what it means to walk in the Spirit. I am underscoring this message with what should be an obvious general attitude and spiritual mindset of loving and obeying the Lord; having personal time with the Lord; having a forgiving and open heart; and service whenever able to help to be a support in the Christian community.
I feel unqualified based on my own history to comment on this subject based on personal experience; but I will say that a godly husband and wife can do much with maintaining a testimony in their personal conduct as well as whenever possible opening up their home for prayer meetings; or Bible study. Interaction among families is stronger depending on the demographics of a fellowship and maturity of one's walk in the Lord.
We are ever mindful of Revelation 3:11 and I thought I should also quote the previous verse:
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
I will say once again as I have before that may His work be done; let someone else take my reward for the sake of reaching lost souls; for His purposes to be accomplished and so that I can join in acclamation of their reward justly deserved. I'll deal with my own loss privately there is no reason in heaven; of course for unwarranted jealousy.
The Spirit works in a believer; and no doubt is involved as the restrainer ( 2 Thessalonians 2:3). God will use a donkey if necessary; and also in the end of the Tribulation will use mighty angels for a final warning for those living under the Antichrist's rule to worship God and not take the mark.
I'll have to continue these thoughts in the next post.
Agape.
Chris has given you a good reply. However, if we examine the saying, "once saved, always saved," it can be true or false; we can use Scripture to support or refute it. So where does that leave us?
In John 3:16, it says that if we believe in Jesus, we will be saved. Jesus promises never to fail. Salvation is based on the grace of God, through faith, not by our efforts, Ephesians 2:8-9. Our salvation depends on the righteousness of Christ and God's mercy, Titus 3:5.
We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23-24. We are justified not by works of the law but by faith, Galatians 2:16. We are called not because of our works but because of God's purpose and grace given to us through Jesus, 2 Timothy 1:9.
Our salvation is founded on our faith in Jesus Christ. In John 10:27-29, we are His sheep, hear His voice, follow Him, and are granted eternal life, which no one can take from His hand. Our salvation is secure because it relies on Jesus' work. As Hebrews 10:23 states, we are to hold fast to our faith without wavering because He is faithful.
Conversely, there is the risk of apostasy or falling away. Luke 8:4-15 illustrates this. In verse 13, it describes someone who received the word with joy and believed for a while but fell away when tempted. This person was a believer who later turned away; individuals can walk away on their own.
We must live by faith and be led by the Spirit. Paul says in Colossians 1:23, "If ye continue in the faith." We also see in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 about the great falling away when the beast rises, along with many other verses too numerous to list that emphasize we must endure to the end, like Revelation 2:10, also we are told to hold fast. If we remain strong in our faith, nothing can take our salvation away.
I understand that some say those who fall away were never truly saved, but I do not see that supported by Scripture, and it may be false hope for one who is weak.
God bless,
RLW