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(Part 2):
So, if we choose to walk away, where will we go? Christ is coming for us. He owns us. His Spirit is the mark of ownership.
In 2 Corinthians 1:22, we see that God has sealed us, and He has given us His Spirit as a guarantee or pledge in our hearts that we belong to Him, and that He's coming for us. Christ has purchased us. He just hasn't come to pick us up yet but the giving of His Spirit to us is the guarantee that He is coming for us.
I like to describe it as purchasing tickets to a sporting event. We own the tickets, but we have not picked them up yet. They are sitting at the will-call. It's the same with us as believers. We are sitting at the "will-call" so to speak, waiting for Christ to come for us. We're not going anywhere until He comes for us.
It is my belief that a true believer (one who has been born from above) cannot commit apostasy. A person who belongs to Christ will always belong to Christ. They will never leave.
1 John 2:19 says, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."
Those who fall away were not true believers. If you look at the words "they" and "us," it's obvious that this is speaking of two classes of people, those who belong to Christ, and those who don't. According to this verse, those who walk away never were part of the "us," true born-again believers. A true believer will never walk away. I have been in discussions with people who say that salvation can be lost, that a believer can walk away from their salvation, and leave Christ. My response and challenge to them was to tell them that if they felt that they could walk away and denounce Christ and their salvation, go ahead and give it a shot. Prove it! They refused to take me up on the challenge. They mean someone else, not them! Go figure!
Blessings in Christ!
Well put!
In John 14:6 Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth, AND THE LIFE: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
When we recieve Christ we recieved LIFE!
We recieve Christ Spirit! ( A LIFE GIVING SPIRIT)
Christ Spirit cannot die!
We have been baptized by the Holyspirit into eternal life! We have eternal life now.
Eternal NEVER ENDS!
We were baptized into his death.
Our old man is crucified with him, he can never hurt us with our standing with the Lord!
We stumbled in these corrupt bodies every day! Even in thought!
And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1 John 2:1
1 John 1:8 says "If WE say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
John is talking to saved people! Not someone who has lost their salvation!
John included himself! (WE)
There will never be a time here in this world where you will ever have no sin.
So if anyone can lose Christ/Salvation then no one was ever saved and never will be.
You also see the work of Christ as our advocate in Romans 4:6-8.
Romans 4:6-8 reads, "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord WILL NOT IMPUTE SIN.
We're covered with Christ righteousness!
It's the heart that has changed in a true believer.
There is no desire to sin.
It grieves Christ Spirit that we now possess.
We're forever changing in the likeness of Christ but we will never be perfect until we are delivered from this body of this death.
Thanks again Brother.
God bless.
Amen! The only way we can have eternal life is if we have the eternal One living in us. I like to think that Christ didn't give me eternal life, He gave me Himself, and He is eternal. As long as He is in me, I have eternal life. And His promise is that He will never leave me. If that's not eternal security and salvation in a nutshell, I'm not sure what is!
God bless!!!
I respect and love you, but I must reply. Many Scriptures tell us we must endure to the end, to me, that's until we die; it is a lifetime journey, not a one-time event. Some Scriptures say some will walk away/fall away, but I will not list them.
There's a verse that says Jesus will not return until there's a falling away, 2 Thessalonians 2:3. This falling away involves saved people facing the beast that is to come. They are willing to give up the gift of eternity rather than face the death of this body. You cannot fall away from something you've never been part of. Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints states that true believers will stay faithful until the end. Still, the warnings, which I won't list, about falling away serve as a sober reminder of the importance of vigilance and depending on God's grace to stay steady, stay in the race.
As I said in another post, I feel the saying once saved, always saved may be false hope for someone weak.
God bless,
RLW
(Part 2):
As believers, we have to differentiate between the flesh and the Spirit. Are we being led by the flesh or are we being led by the Spirit of Christ in us? What would cause us to walk away? It is Satan who wants to take us away but he can't do that. God's Spirit that lives in us would not cause us to walk away, would He? So, if we are a Christ filled believer, who are we going to listen to, the evil one who wants us to walk away, or the Spirit in us that we profess to be followers of?
So, if I may ask, do you believe salvation is a work of God alone, or do we work for our salvation? I ask this because if you feel that you must endure to the end in order to be saved, how do you do that without involving human effort?
Again, thank you for the reply.
Blessings to you!
Sorry, it should have been choose life over death.
God bless,
RLW
Thank you, brother, for clarifying that!
God Bless!!!
Thanks. We are justified by faith in the sacrifice and blood of Jesus. By grace through faith, we are saved. We cannot earn salvation through good works, but we are transformed to do good works. I understand you see hupomeno differently than I do; you study Greek, I do not. What I see is that it means to endure and persevere. Also, in Rev. 2, Rev. 3, and Rev. 21, the word overcometh, Greek 3528 nikao, meaning to conquer, overcome, prevail, and get the victory.
Is our salvation initiated by our choice to believe, John 3:16, free will? When we hear the gospel, we decide to believe in God and His Son, Jesus, and receive salvation by the grace of God through faith. Just like Abraham, who chose to believe and depend on God instead of relying on himself, even when God asked him to sacrifice his son, his choice is rewarded. Do we decide to choose death over life, or are we predestined, chosen beforehand in God's plan?
In the falling away, I do not see a believer and a true believer as two different people; to me, you either believe or you don't. Falling away is apostasy; those who apostatized had previously held the Christian faith. You can't fall off a roof you are not on. My understanding is that this refers to people walking away from their faith.
Something similar happened around 250 AD when Emperor Decius required Christians to sacrifice to the gods and obtain a certificate; some apostatized, many were killed, which is just a small sample of what's to come. Nobody, including Satan, can take us out of our Father's hand. We are free moral agents capable of accepting or rejecting salvation.
If one decides to become unrepentant and disobedient and chooses to walk in the world and not the Spirit, and God turns them over to a reprobate mind, it will be far worse if they had never known Christ. Thank you, Jesse, for discussing this controversial subject. I hope you can make sense of what I wrote.
God bless,
RLW
(Part 1):
I'm not sure that we differ much in our understanding of the word HUPOMENO. Patience, endurance, and perseverance can be attached to this word. The word HUPO means under, and MENO means remain. So, we are to remain under our circumstances, and we are to endure hardships and whatever else is thrown at us. The word HUPOMENO expresses a remaining under or an endurance in circumstances.
As I mentioned previously, a person who is born of God's Spirit will endure to the end. God's Spirit gives us the ability to remain under and endure. His Spirit gives us the ability to persevere. Without His Spirit, we would never endure or persevere to the end because without His Spirit, all it leaves us with is this body of flesh which will never submit to Christ.
To your first question asking, "Is our salvation initiated by our choice to believe, John 3:16, free will?" Biblically speaking, the salvation process is initiated by God the Father. Jesus said, in John 6:44, "No one is able to come to me, unless the Father who has sent me should draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day."
Consequently, if the Father does not draw a person to Christ, that person cannot be saved. It is only after the Father draws a person to Christ, and they surrender their life to Him, that the Spirit of Christ enters into the spirit of that person and a spiritual birth takes place. So, it is God that initiates salvation, it is God that saves, and it is God that keeps a person saved. We can't keep ourselves saved.
(Part 2):
You mention that you do not see a believer and a true believer as two different people, that you either believe or you don't. The reason I differentiate between a believer and a true believer is because a person can believe in God, a person can believe what the bible says is true, a person can go to church religiously twice a week and still be void of God's Spirit. There are people in our churches today that have never received Christ. Oh yea, they believe alright, but they never surrender their life to Him. To me a true believer is someone who has been born of God's Spirit. Anyone can believe. The bible says that even the demons believe. They know who Jesus is and they believe. They just will never submit to Him.
To your second question, "Do we decide to choose death over life, or are we predestined, chosen beforehand in God's plan?" When we are drawn to Christ by the Father, when we are convicted by His Spirit of our sin, when we come to the realization that the only cure for sin is Christ, we are then at a crossroad and have a choice to make. If we choose to reject Christ, then yes, we've chosen death over life. If we truly convicted in our heart and surrender our life to Christ, He will save us. But again, we didn't initiate the salvation process, God the Father did. Predestination is a totally different topic that has been discussed in this forum in the past.
Yes, I agree that falling away is called apostasy. But I'm not too sure about those who apostatized had previously held the Christian faith. It is my belief that a person who belongs to Christ will never commit apostasy or "fall away." How can a person claim to love the Lord and walk away from Him? Brother, if there is one question that I'd ask you personally, could you walk away from Jesus Christ right now? I'm not asking you whether or not you have the "free-will" to do so, I'm asking will you do it today or maybe even tomorrow?
(Part 3):
You mention that you can't fall off a roof you are not on. That is true. You also cannot fall off a roof if you and are permanently secured to an anchor point. Sure, I can unhook myself and jump off, but I use the word permanently because Christ has sealed me with His Spirit, and that is permanent. I'm permanently secured to Christ and can never be separated from Him. If I decide to walk away, He goes with me because He says He will never leave me nor forsake me.
There are three verses I must consider, Deuteronomy 31:6, 31:8, Joshua 1:5, and Hebrews 13:5. These verses tell me that Jesus will never leave me nor forsake me. Sure, you might say I can leave Him, but if I leave, where does Christ go? Will He leave me? I must take Him at His word.
Now here's how great the Greek text is. In Hebrews 13:5, it says "I will never leave thee nor forsake thee." What a beautiful statement. What a beautiful promise. You see, here's something we don't get from our English text, but in the Greek text, just in this statement alone, there are 5 negatives.
The word never represents two negatives. Whenever a writer in Greek uses two negatives, he's talking about an impossibility. Jesus says, "I will never," in other words, it will be impossible for Me to leave you. And then He says, "Nor forsake you." Now the word forsake comes with three negatives, so this gives us the five negatives. The only way a person can lose salvation is if Christ leaves them, and that's never going to happen according to Him.
(Part 4):
Lastly, to your last statement that "If one decides to become unrepentant and disobedient and chooses to walk in the world and not the Spirit, and God turns them over to a reprobate mind, it will be far worse if they had never known Christ."
My dear brother, this comes from Romans Chapter 1. The phrase "God gave them over to a reprobate mind" comes from Romans 1:28."
But who are the "them" that this is speaking of. When I read Romans Chapter 1, beginning at Romans 1:18 which leads up to Verse 28, I see who the ones are that God gives to a reprobate mind, and it doesn't seem to line up with the context you put it in.
It's clear to see that those who God gives over to a reprobate mind are not saved believers who "decide to become unrepentant and disobedient choose to walk in the world and not the Spirit," but people who have been shown the truth and choose to reject it. These are people who reject Christ and will always reject Him.
The word reprobate means to reject. When a person continues to reject God, even when they are given every opportunity to receive Him and they still continue to reject, those are the ones God gives over to a reprobate mind. The context you put it in does not seem to match up with what I am reading in Chapter 1 of Romans.
If you take this from Romans 1:18, what this is showing us is the doctrine of condemnation. If there is anything you see from Romans 1-18 through Romans 1:28 that describes a person who is saved being given over by God to a reprobate mind, please show me how you come to this conclusion.
Ronald, I thank you also for this discussion. And yes, I agree that this is a controversial subject. And yes, I can make sense of what you wrote, but only if I see it through the mind of those who believe salvation can be lost!
May the Lord continue to lead us and minister to our hearts and minds and cause us to be obedient to Him until the day He brings us home.
God Bless!!!
We are not far apart. First, to answer your question, will I walk away? The answer is NO! I know Romans 1:28 didn't fit, but it reflects what I was thinking of someone I knew when I wrote it. Only God knows the heart of man. What was in my mind was a person I knew, and anyone who knew them would say this person was a true Christian.
This person lost a child, and they completely changed. Over time, they turned into the opposite of who they were, and this verse fits what I saw happen to this person. This is one of the reasons I believe someone can fall away; only God knows if that is what happened. John 6:44, we may see this as the gospel today, the words of God are preached, which draws people, but that is not coming to Christ himself.
Then we have Matthew 22:14: Many are called, but few are chosen. Some who hear will fully embrace it and be accepted by God, while others will not. We are drawn or called, but is it not up to us to go and believe?
How do we understand verses like Hebrews 3:12-14? This is directed at those in Christ. 1 Timothy 4:1-2, My understanding, this goes with 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and Revelation 13:7-10; here is the patience of the saints. This is a true falling away, John 1.5:4-6; we must continue to abide in Him. Romans 11:19-22, we can be cut off.
James 1:12 is another blessed is a man that endureth, if he does, he will receive a crown of life. As in Revelation 2:10, faithful unto death. I respect you, but to me, there are too many warnings to endure and overcome until our death. We cannot ignore that; we must encourage each other to stay strong in our faith.
Not to spark another debate, I believe the great falling away is connected to when the beast rises and the persecution begins. Many think they will be taken out, but are not; they will be here. My understanding is Christ will never forsake us; the only thing that can separate us from Him is us.
Thanks again, brother,
God bless,
RLW
(Part 1):
Thanks again for your reply. I am happy to hear that you will not walk away from Christ. I suppose if I were to ask you the same question every day for the rest of your life, you would give me the same answer.
There are many reasons why people say they will not walk away from Christ. I have asked this same question to others who believe salvation can be lost and they always have given me the same answer. Most of the people who tell others that salvation can be lost seem to only want to apply it to others, not themselves, because when you press them on it, they will tell you that they don't believe they will ever lose theirs.
The biggest and most common reason I have heard from those who say they will not walk away is because the "love Jesus too much to do so." I guess the people they are trying to warn about losing their salvation don't love Jesus the way they do?
This person you know who lost a child perhaps was angry with God for letting this happen which prompted them to walk away. As a parent, I know how tragic and painful this must have been. Personally, I can't imagine myself walking away from the Lord for any reason.
You ask, and say, "We are drawn or called, but is it not up to us to go and believe?"
Here is how I understand this:
When a person has been testified to about the truth that there is a God (which creation itself is a testimony), there will always be a response. A person will either be receptive to the testimony, or they will want to get away. But there will always be some sort of response in a person's heart. God knows everyone's heart. He knows those who are receptive and those who want nothing to do with the testimony. Those who are receptive, God will continue to draw to the point that they eventually receive Jesus Christ.
(Part 2):
Now, those who are not receptive, those whose hearts are not open to the truth, God continues to give them opportunities to come to Christ, but if they continue to reject the testimony, eventually God will give them over to a reprobate mind, a mind that allows them to continue to reject. Once that happens, there is no hope for that person.
This is why I was unable to connect the dots on what you were saying about this individual and using Romans 1:28. You say that those who knew this person considered him/her to be a Christian but if you read Romans Chapter 1 beginning at Verse 18, this person who seemed to be a Christian doesn't fit the description of a person who God gives over to a reprobate mind. If you go beyond Verse 28, it gives a long list of things which describe the things they were involved in. Also, they rejected the truth from the beginning and continued in their rejection, and the outcome is given to us in Verse 28.
Anyway, we stand in disagreement on whether or not salvation can be lost. I don't believe I will lose mine, and it has nothing to do with me being a good or righteous person because I have no righteousness of my own. But as long as I have Christ, I have righteousness because He is righteous. And He will never leave me, impossible!
If you don't mind, can you please give me your understanding of 1 John 2:19? Who are the "us" and "they" in this verse, and what is this verse saying to you? Thanks, brother!
God Bless!!!
I failed; I apologize to you and everyone else who has been part of this discussion, and I don't want to do anything that might harm our fellowship. I appreciate your question. Would you ever walk away from Christ? I gave you the wrong answer, just off the top of my head. It's what we all think we wouldn't do until we're faced with death, or what we'd do to save a loved one. Or what would we do if we are still here when the beast rises?
Your question opened my eyes, showing me I need to study more before I reply, not to lead anyone astray, 2 Timothy 2:15.
God bless,
RLW
I second Brother Jesse, You doesn't owe me any apology either, especially with this being a worthy topic!
There is so much wrapped around this topic and should be carefully studied and carefully presented!
If one neglect studying it properly one can get tripped up and believe they can sin all they want.
On the other hand we can improperly study and neglect the power, role and significance of the Holyspirit!
The Lord is shepherding us today with his Holy Spirit!
A sheep may leave the flock but he will always come back!
Jesus will go get him!
Christ is our Great Shepherd. When we become his sheep we're his responsibility and he cares for his sheep.
Ronald you have always showed Brotherly love,
That's a sign that you are a Brother.
What makes one a Brother is because he's a son of God not because of our "head knowledge" of the word of God.
You can walk away from a fellowship but you can't change identity even when these bodies die.
I would like to see someone conduct a good study on the Holyspirit.
Blessings
That night after I replied to Jesse, I felt I had given a half-answer, and that is why I felt to apologize. I am thankful that you, Jesse, and others on this site are brothers and sisters who treat each other as such.
I agree that this subject is profound and deserving of study, and I also emphasize the importance of the power, role, and significance of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is our comforter, our teacher, and guides us to truth, and the Holy Spirit plays a vital role in our sanctification.
We should not overlook, and we should also question and study why there are so many warnings to stay faithful, discerning truth from falsehood, and remaining steadfast in the face of various temptations and challenges. We are to stay faithful, avoid sinful behaviors, and be vigilant against false teachings and influences. We must stay on the path of righteousness and remain faithful to God.
Just a question we should ask, pray, and study when we truly accept Jesus in faith, and we are justified to receive the Holy Spirit: why are there so many warnings? These warnings are addressed to us, for our benefit and encouragement, not to those who have not even read a Bible.
Thank you, brother. I agree that a study on the Holy Spirit would benefit us all.
God bless,
RLW
As born again children, we are to behave like children of God.
We can't take our father's name in vain!
God loves us and he chasteneth those he loves.
Hebrews 12:2-8 sums it up.
"Looking unto Jesus THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
FOR WHOM THE LORD LOVETH HE CHASTENING, AND SCOURGETHE EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVETH.
IF YE ENDURE CHASTENING, GOD DEALETH WITH YOU AS WITH SON'S; FOR WHAT SON IS HE WHOM THE FATHER CHASTENING NOT?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
We know our Great Shepherd voice! The Lord keeps his sheep in line whether by chastening or even by death but he will never let us depart from him and he will never forsake us as we see in
1 Corinthians 5:5!
"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, THAT THE SPIRIT MAY BE SAVED IN THE DAY OF THE LORD JESUS.
Also.
Man righteousness is as filthy rags!
Thank God for blood of the Lamb that made us righteousness before the eyes of our Father!
I couldn't grab hold of salvation with my filthy rags and I certainly cannot restore salvation with my filthy rags.
Praise God for this new heart of flesh that causes us to WALK in his statues and praise God for his rod when I don't!
Blessings!
Chastising is one thing we don't think of as much as we should. How many times do we overlook events that we should learn and grow in our walk with the Lord? I guess that is what it means to quench the Holy Spirit. I agree that without the blood of Christ shed for us, we are just a walking, unclean thing.
God bless,
RLW
God bless!
You've always demonstrated brotherly love so it would be hard for me to believe that you would ever do or say anything that would harm our fellowship. The answer you gave was "no," which brought joy to my heart. Please correct me if I am mistaken, but I believe the point you are making is that a person might choose to walk away or deny the Lord if they are faced with a life-or-death situation, or perhaps one of the things you just listed?
I'm reminded of Peter who followed Jesus, but Jesus told Peter that he would deny Him. Peter says, "Oh no, I will never deny you (my paraphrase). In Matthew Chapter 26, we find that Peter witnessed Jesus being taken away. What I notice is that Peter didn't try to intervene. We see in Verse 58 that he followed from a distance. Peter saw the clubs and swords as they were taking Jesus.
He must have known that if He tried to intervene or identify with Jesus, he might end up dead. Something else that may have been going through his mind, and this is only a guess on my part, not scripture, but Peter saw Jesus perform many miracles and perhaps believed no one had the power to take Him. But when he saw them take Jesus away, his hopes may have been dashed.
Peter denied Jesus. I suppose in that particular predicament that Peter was put it, it's like do I identify with Jesus and perhaps face the same fate, or do I deny Him to save my myself?
I have to wonder that if Peter would have had the Holy Spirit dwelling within his spirit, would he have walked away from Jesus or denied Him? Peter denied Jesus but Jesus never denied Peter. We are blessed to have been given God's Spirit, and I trust that it is His Spirit that will keep us from ever denying Christ.
Brother, you owe no apology. I do cherish our fellowship together. I pray that the Lord might bless us as we come and study His word together, and that we might experience all of the fullness of Christ as He reveals to us Himself and His truth.
God Bless!!!
Should we ask what salvation truly is? Is it a one-time event, as it is often strongly preached today, 2 Timothy 4:3-4, or is it a lifelong journey? I see salvation as encompassing the past, present, and future. When we accept Jesus through faith, our past sins are forgiven, we are justified by faith, declared innocent of sin, and covered with a white garment, clean and pure.
We then begin a lifetime of sanctification, becoming more like Christ, and we must continually repent of our sins, walking in the Spirit to keep our garments spotless, as 1 John 1:9 states. I believe this is why there are so many warnings that we must endure, to overcome, and keep our garments spotless. We must maintain our garments, which signify a lifelong relationship with Jesus through the Holy Spirit on the way to our glorification when we are resurrected.
Our robes are made white not by us but, Revelation 7:14, unrepentant sin defiles, Revelation 3:4-5, staying steadfast in our faith, Revelation 16:15. This is lifelong; we are to be faithful until our death, Revelation 2:10, Revelation 12:11. There is a reason for these many warnings; we should at least ask why.
Thank you, brother.
God bless,
RLW
(Part 1):
You mention that you should have included that if you continue to abide in Christ as in John 15:6-7, then you are secure. Well, if I may share with you some good news, you and I will continue to abide in Christ and Christ will continue to abide in us.
I'm not sure if you recall me mentioning quite some time ago that John Chapter 15 is my favorite chapter in the entire bible. I have been blessed by studying Jesus' teaching of the genuine vine and the branches. There's a special Greek word in this chapter that is also found throughout the NT.
The word is MENO which means to abide, dwell, remain, or stay. This word denotes permanency. It is a word that is used to describe our relationship with Christ. We abide/MENO in Christ, and Christ abides/MENO in us, continuously and permanently.
I believe the same as you that one who continues to abide in Christ is a true believer because a true believer continuously abides in Christ. As far as walking in the Spirit, Galatians 5:25 says, "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."
If we live in the Spirit, we should also be walking in the Spirit. What this is saying is that if we're saved, if we have Christ's Spirit in us, then we should also be walking in the Spirit. This is not encouraging those of us who are saved to do it. What this is saying is that if we live in the Spirit, then we should be walking in the Spirit.
(Part 2):
So, what is salvation? For me, salvation happened the moment I received Christ and His Spirit came into my spirit. That was a one-time event. I can only be born of His Spirit once. But like you, I also see salvation as past, present, and future. In other words, I was saved, I am being saved, and in the end, I will be saved.
I'm looking at Philippians 1:6 which reads, "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"
The first thing I notice is that Paul says, "being confident." This is actually a Perfect Tense which should read "having become confident." Paul can confidently say about this very thing that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform (literally complete it), until the day of Jesus Christ. God's promise to us is that whatever work He began in us, He's going to complete it until Christ comes. That's how permanent our salvation is!
I also agree that when we receive Jesus through faith, our sins are forgiven, we are justified by faith, and covered with a white garment, clean and pure. We are covered in the righteousness of Christ. He (Jesus) is pure and clean ( Philippians 3:9).
Please notice that I didn't use the word "accept." I'm not sure if you knew this or not, but the bible never tells us to accept Jesus. It does tell us to receive Him ( John 1:12). I don't mean to be fastidious, but in my mind, there's a difference between the words accept and receive, especially when it comes to Christ. To accept just means to mentally agree with something, or someone. We must receive Him.
(Part 3):
I do agree with you that we are to confess and repent of any and all known sin. On the two words, endure, and overcome, I have shared much on those words that are found in several places so I don't see much point on repeating other than to say that these are not conditions placed on a believer if they want to remain saved.
Our English text makes it seem as though these things are conditional, but in the Greek text they are not conditional. A true believer, one who belongs to Christ will endure. And a true believer has overcome. So, it's not "if" we endure and "if" we overcome. We endure because the Spirit of Christ in us causes us to endure, and we have overcome because Christ overcame!
Sorry for being long-winded again. Blessings to you, my brother!
I have enjoyed this discussion. We agree on many points. Salvation is a gift from God that we cannot earn, and nothing can take it from us. I know you and others believe one cannot walk away or fall away, but to me, that is what is going to happen, as told us in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. We cannot see into a person's heart; only God can, but I have seen people like the one I mentioned before totally change from who they were and never repent and return.
2 Thessalonians 2:3, falling away meaning apostasy, this is to happen before Jesus returns. This will be an enormous betrayal of the faith, as in 1 Timothy 4:1. My understanding this would not be an apostasy if these people were not saved in the faith of Jesus.
God bless,
RLW
I also have enjoyed our discussion. I completely agree with you when you say that nothing can take our salvation from us. Nothing would have to include ourselves, otherwise the word nothing would be meaningless.
I know you disagree, but I stand by my original post stating that a true believer cannot commit apostasy. No doubt that there will be many people who profess to be Christians, they will even play the part well enough to where others will believe they are Christians, going to church, reading their bibles, saying they believe, but because they have never been born of God's Spirit, they will be the ones who will fall away because they do not have the Spirit of God dwelling within them to keep them from doing so.
Brother, I truly believe in my heart that you have God's Spirit in you, so I do not have to worry or be concerned in the least bit about you ever walking away or committing apostasy (if it were even possible). I speak only for myself now when I say that I know my salvation is secure in Christ. For me, it all boils down to who I'm placing my trust in. I'm either going to trust in my own power and human ability to keep myself saved, or I'm going to trust in God's power to keep me saved until the Lord comes for me.
It is true as you say that only God knows a person's heart. He knew my heart from the very beginning. He knew my heart when He saved me, and He will always know my heart until the day I depart this world to go be with Him throughout eternity. I have to wonder if He would have saved me knowing that one day I would turn completely away from Him and commit apostasy? Just a thought!
Thank you for hearing me out as I have also done the same with you. As always, I enjoy our fellowship together in His word. Yes, we agree on many things but there are some things we will probably never agree on.
Many blessings to you, my brother!
It doesn't take long for some of the things we post to be gone. I like the way this site used to be, where you can look through several pages. Now, if you are unable to visit this site every single day, things that others have to share, you may never see.
There are some things I would like to respond to. I am in agreement with much of what you are saying, but I would like to just touch on a couple things. Please give me a little more time to read over your message again and time to gather my thoughts. I wish I could respond tonight but I have to go and pick my daughter and her family up from the airport soon, so I will get back with you tomorrow, Lord willing!
Blessing to you in Christ!
When Christ was taken all the disciples turned away. The Holyspirit have not been given yet.
Peter is mostly noted because he said he would never do it!
No one wanted to risk death and witness nor was they equipped to do so.
In Luke 22:31-32 Jesus tells Peter, "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
In Acts 1:8 Jesus reminds them of what he told them in Luke 24:49.
"But YE SHALL RECEIVE POWER, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: AND YE SHALL BE WITNESSES UNTO ME both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Afterwards Peter taught and preached boldly the rest of his life while knowing his fate.
John 21:18-19.
Blessings!
Thank you! I believe Peter was sincere when he told Jesus he would never deny Him. But Jesus already knew what Peter would do despite what Peter said or convinced himself of. This was something that God planned and ordained for Peter to go through. Peter didn't fail Jesus by denying Him because Jesus already told Peter what he was going to do. This was all part of God's plan and Peter unknowingly followed along perfectly. There was no way that Peter was not going to deny Jesus because God ordained it to happen. Luke 22:31-32 that you shared is a great piece of scripture. Jesus says to Peter "when you are converted," which in the Greek text it is Aorist Tense which shows us that Jesus is not saying (if) you have enough faith to make it through this trial, then I will be able to use you. None of this was based on what Peter did or did not do or if Peter had enough faith or not. Jesus says when you are returned, not if you are returned based on what you do.
In that little phrase "that thy faith fail not," Jesus says 'thy faith," meaning Peter's faith, not the faith that's produced by God's Spirit. We know that God's Spirit had not been given yet. So, all Peter had was human faith. There are other places where Jesus says "O' ye of little faith." It's literally O' ye of no faith. They did not yet have the faith of God because they did not have the Holy Spirit yet.
I like what you said to Brother Ronald that "You can walk away from a fellowship but you can't change identity." How true is that! When applied to our relationship with Christ, we can walk away and break fellowship with Him, be we can never lose our Father/son relationship. That can never be broken!
God Bless!!!
Jesus said "when thou art converted!
There's no if there.
I've noticed that as well!
He does the something similar in Acts 1:8"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: AND YE SHALL BE WITNESSES UNTO ME both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
And ye SHALL BE WITNESSES unto me.
I believe you shared this before.
The Lord done it all!
Blessings.
[Comment Removed]
Out of love, I believe it's best to end this discussion. I sense that your questions are steering the conversation away from its original purpose. Forgive me if I'm sensing something that's not there.
God bless,
RLW
(Part 1):
Thank you for the reply. Mutual respect and love to you, my brother. We as believers have love for one another because His Spirit gives us that ability.
As far as enduring to the end, a true believer will endure to the end. I touched on this during my Greek studies. Our English bible makes it sound like it is a challenge, "if" we endure to the end. But in the Greek text, it is not a challenge. We endure to the end because His Spirit gives us the ability to do so. It's not a challenge. Enduring to the end shows proof of those who are saved.
Salvation is all of God. We cannot save ourselves. If you believe you must endure to the end for your salvation, how do you do that without involving human works?
In 2 Thessalonians 2:3, I do not see this speaking about saved believers falling away. Yes, there will be a falling away (Apostasy) first, but not a falling away of saved believers.
Paul speaks on this in 1 Timothy 4:1 where he says, "now the Spirit speaks expressly that in the latter times, some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of demons." We have that in our day. There are many people in cult groups who profess to be Christian but are chasing after false doctrines and teachings.
So, as you mentioned, there must be an apostasy first. This falling away will be those who profess to be Christians but belong to various cult groups. They are the ones who will be deceived into chasing after Satan's lies. The deception will be easy for them, and they are the ones who will fall away.
"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."
2 Peter 2:21
"For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."
2 Peter 2:22
"But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Blessings
(Part 2):
So, these Hebrew people were given the knowledge of the truth, the gospel of Jesus Christ, and they had a difficult choice to make, at least difficult for them. Many of them turned away from the truth and went right back into old Judaism because life would be much easier for them that way. No salvation there!
And that's what we see also in Hebrews 10:26. Hebrews was written to Hebrew people. There were three classes of people that were being addressed, Hebrew believers, Hebrew non-believers, and Hebrew people who were following along with the crowd and hearing the same message but had not yet made the decision to receive Jesus as their Savior or go back into Judaism.
So, the writer of Hebrews says, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins."
Again, receiving knowledge does not save anyone, and the writer is telling them that if they sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth (the gospel message of salvation through Jesus), and they reject that knowledge and go back into Judaism because it was much easier, the writer tells them that there is no other sacrifice that will take away their sin.
Again, thanks for sharing these verses.
Blessings!
"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"
John 14:15
"If ye love me, keep my commandments."
James 1:22
"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves."
Titus 1:16
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."
Matthew 7:21
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
Blessings
(Part 1):
Thank you for sharing these pieces of scripture. Perhaps you may have missed Hebrews 6:4-6 which is another verse, along with the ones you have shared, that some use to show that salvation can be lost. However, they all fall short of proving the loss of salvation.
In 2 Peter 2:20-22, Peter is speaking to Hebrew people. Nothing in these three verses show that Peter is referring to saved individuals losing their salvation.
A person can receive knowledge of Jesus Christ and the gospel message of salvation and still never surrender their life to Christ. This is the same thing we see in Hebrews 10:26. Knowledge of the truth does not save anyone. A person must receive Jesus Christ and be born of His Spirit in order to be saved.
If you ever do a study of Judaism and what it means for a Jewish person to receive Jesus as their Savior, it puts these scriptures you've shared into a much clearer perspective.
You see, for a Jewish person to receive Christ, they would be completely cut off from society. They would no longer be allowed in their temple, they would lose their job, and no one would hire them. Their own family would disown them. Their family would consider them dead and literally hold a funeral for them if they denounced Judaism and received Christ as their Savior.