Discuss Daniel 12 Page 5

Hello Ronald

Never mind about grk philosophy, no worry.

I want to do a study about that "spirit of life" that God breathed in Adam and I will come back to this conversation later on.

It is possible that it actually means the Spirit of God or it means that the Spirit of God created life in Adam. Anyway I will leave it for now. GBU

Hi Giannis,

Thanks, brother, I hope you did not take Greek Philosophy personally. I understand the Hebrew word nephesh, it can be any being, dog, cat, or cow. It can also mean a soul, a living being, a dead being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, and emotion, basically who we are. When I said the spirit of life, I did not mean it had anything to do with the Spirit of God, sorry for the misunderstanding. I meant spirit/breath as the word neshamah used in Job 27:3.

I understand our being or soul is the same thing it is who we are and who will someday be with Jesus and see God's face. But that day is the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30. In Scripture in death there is no remembrance of us, Psalm 6:5. In death we lie down until, Job 14:12-14 the grave is our house and our bed Job 17:13-16.

We will see death and the grave and our soul will be there Psalm 89:48 and this Ecclesiastes 9:5-10. I know our understanding may be different, but I do not see in Scripture where we or any part of us is immortal until resurrection day 1 Cor. 15:52-53 we will be raised from the grave, us, our soul/being, who we are.

The definition of death is the separation of the soul from the body I do not see in Scripture. It does say there is no knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, death, Ecclesiastes 9:10. I do not see that has changed. I know many understand as you and I hope you take this as just a little of where my understanding comes from, for it does not affect salvation.

The way I see it, we are waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with His reward of eternal life, either we will be alive or asleep in the grave.

God bless,

RLW

Hi Jema,

Thank you, it is a hard subject to discuss because the different understandings of the soul, spirit, and resurrection are so different.

God bless,

RLW

Thankyou so much Ronald , that was so well explained , I knew that and agree with everything you said but I could not have explained it as plainly and clearly as you just did :) .

Hello Ronald

I have visited some Hebrew sites to see how Hebrews understand the verse in Genesis 2:7, ""And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

1. Living soul. It is always interpreted as "living being". In Bible (in both Hebrew and Greek) the word soul apart from meaning actually a soul it oftens means "person", "life", "being". In Gen 2:7 it means "being"

2. The breath of life does not mean the Spirit of God. It just shows an action from God that made man alive and that life is shown by breathing.

3. The phrase "breathed into his nostrlis" is always written as "blowing into his nostrils'. In the Septuagint it is almost the same, " And God blowed to his face the blow of life, and man became a living soul (which again is interpreted as "being").

So the whole verse in Gen 2:7 has nothing to do with Spirits and souls. It just talks about the material side of man, soil from the earth that God gave it life.

GBU

Hi Ashleyreagen44,

I agree with Adam, as we see in Genesis 2:7 that when God breathed into the nostrils of Adam the breath of life he became a living soul. When this spirit of life that is given by God leaves us, we are no longer a living soul. Ecclesiastes 12:7 the spirit goes back to God who gave it, that is for all people, saved or not saved.

We cannot live without the spirit, our breath as James 2:26 said without it our body is dead. When we stop breathing and that spirit goes back to God, we are no longer a living soul, as Jesus said on the cross, I commend my spirit, His breath then He died. Jesus did not go to heaven He went to the tomb/grave the same as we will. Jesus did not ascend to heaven until after He was resurrected, John 20:17.

My understanding is the confusion comes from Greek Philosophy, the meaning of death, Hades, and the immortality of the soul that merged into the Church with Augustine with the teaching on human nature and the afterlife to Greek philosophies.

Daniel 12:2 is the same as John 5:28-29 that we see in Revelation 20:11-15, the sheep and the goats, we see the last enemy cast into the lake of fire death, and hell/grave. My understanding of Scripture we are mortal, and our breath/spirit goes back to God and our soul no longer lives but is asleep in the grave until we are resurrected from the grave. This body is not what is resurrected it is our soul into our new body, and that is when we will be absent from this body, 1 Cor. 15:42-58.

Can I tell someone who thinks their loved one is in heaven their wrong? No, that would be hurtful. If they ask for my understanding, this is what Scripture says to me.

God bless,

RLW

That's not the only place the Bible says people will sleep to await Jesus's return. Here are more...

Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:18-20, Matthew 9:24.

Hello Ashley. In my understanding, there are two aspects for those who belong to Jesus at their death: the mortal body goes into the ground & the immortal spirit returns to God ( Ecclesiastes 12:7). Some believe that both the spirit/soul & body remain together in the ground.

In Daniel 12:1,2, we read about the resurrection of the body in that final day, but there is no mention of the fate of the spirit of the deceased. Then in the account that Jesus gave of the wealthy man & poor Lazarus ( Luke 16:19-31), we note that Jesus spoke of three men: one in torment in hell's flames, one in relative peace & comfort in paradise, & with Abraham at his side. If any of these men just remained in the grave, Jesus would not have spoken of life beyond the grave soon after their deaths & such a life where either torment or peace can be experienced.

Even the Apostle Paul expressed his desire to leave this Earth ( Philippians 1:21-24) & to be with Christ, though he was required to continue to be used of God in the Gospel for a little longer. Paul didn't expect to lie in the grave, but his hope was that death would actually be welcome, for it meant that he would be with his Lord & Savior. And in passages such as Revelation 4:4; Revelation 5:5-10; Revelation 19:4; etc. we read about the Elders around God's Throne in Heaven. So I believe that at death our spirits return to God to join the host of Heaven worshiping the Lord of Glory. And when Jesus returns in the clouds to receive His beloved, those who have died in Christ will have their bodies re-formed to join their spirits, & those believers alive at that time will arise physically to be with the Lord forever. All this points to Jesus snatching away His people off the Earth before the awful Judgements of God come upon the unbelieving world. And then we all reign with Christ on the Earth in the Millennium period.

I was always under the assumption that when saved Christians die, they go to Heaven immediately. Daniel 12:2 has somewhat perplexed me. Do people just "sleep" in their graves until Christ's Second Coming? Or are they waiting in Heaven for us? Please help me understand.

Thanks brother S. Spencer. I believe you have understood Daniel 9:24-27 as I have, but to add a little. I realize that the "HE shall confirm the covenant with many...." (v27), is the main point of difference that comes up. The question: is the 'He' speaking about Christ or the Anti-Christ? And this question raises different answers even from renowned commentators.

From your discussions with brother Ronald, I have tried to place Christ in that verse & read it as he shared. However, it just doesn't fit there given what is written before & after. As far as what was revealed to Daniel, the Messiah will be cut off (i.e. die). Daniel doesn't know anymore about Him. So everything after the death of the Messiah, the texts given must then refer to "the prince that shall come", the people of whom (the Romans) would come first to destroy Jerusalem & the Temple.

Now we're not told when that 'prince' would come, as well we don't have any record of any individual or power confirming (or, affirming) the covenant for seven years in this interim period. This could be the Covenant already in place that Anti-Christ assures Israel will come to force, or even raising his own covenant that aligns with the old giving it sanction. However he implements it, the sacrifices & oblations that have long ceased, he will reinstate, but mid-way in his rule, he will renege on it. Not just disallowing it, but he will desecrate the Temple with his own abominations. And the mention of 'abominations' in Daniel, have always applied to wicked acts & never to Christ (e.g. Daniel 11:31: ref to Antiochus IV Epiphanes, erecting a statue of Zeus in the Temple, and Daniel 12:11: again to the Anti-Christ, where the Jewish sacrifices are removed & the abomination set up). But Daniel wanted to know more ( Daniel 12:8,9), but all was sealed till revealed at the end.

If this was Jesus in v27, when did he forcefully remove the sacrificial system? The Jews continued to sacrifice after His death & resurrection.

Hi Brother S Spencer,

Some of those questions may be answered in God's Word.

The purpose of my original question posted is to collect verses and I still only have 1 supporting salvation now which is the one I found. Of the verses posted I don't see any saying we're saved immediately on earth before judgment. Some cited being born again and being a new creature which are great verses but being transformed is not salvation.

Simply evaluating this on a Biblical support basis there are far more verses supporting future salvation instead of the present one people commonly cite. I believe I listed 7 to 1 before and I found more that support future too, so it might be 10 to 1.

So if there are no other verses supporting this why does a majority of believers believe in something so hardly supported by the Bible? Could it originate from cultural factors? Funerals for example- often people try to comfort others by saying they're in heaven right now despite Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:18-20, Matthew 9:24.

Just because there are questions does the questions themselves do not invalidate the truth of God's Word. God bless.

AMEN Brother Ronald:

You are correct: Daniel is a prophecy of Christ, not antichrist.

Most don't understand the abomination that maketh desolated. It was SET UP the same time the daily sacrifice was destroyed .... Daniel 12:11

Hebrews 3:9 But Christ a Son over his own HOUSE, whose house we are .....

Matthew 23:38 Behold your HOUSES are left unto you DESOLATE ....

All men DIED, their house (BODY) was left desolate, no life, dead on the cross, then CHRIST ONLY arose.

All men arose a NEW CREATION; joint HEIRS of Christ, the body of Christ, the life now the SPIRIT of GOD.

Most don't understand the GREAT TRIBULATION.

Matthew 24:22 And unless those days be SHORTENED, no flesh should be SAVED ....

Christ and ALL MEN DIED on the cross, three SHORT days latter, ALL MEN were made ALIVE by the RESURRECTION.

ALL the wrath of God, that ALL MEN deserved, was POURED OUT on Christ, that was the GREAT TRIBULATION, three short(en) days, for the elects sake.

The same things is pictured in Revelation, all the 7 plagues and 7 vials had to be poured out before ANYONE could enter the TEMPLE, God Almighty and the LAMB are the TEMPLE .... Revelation 21:22

Revelations 15:8 ... NO ONE could enter the temple, until the seven plagues were fulfilled ......

God bless you!

Hi Jema,

Jesus tells us below - that we should fear God as He can cast us into hell.

Luke 12:4-5

4And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Here a just a few of many verses stating that the unjust/unbeliever/unrepentant sinner will suffer for eternity in Hell.

Luke 16:22-25

Matt 25:41

Matt 3:12

Matt 25:46

Daniel 12:2

Mark 9:44-49

2 Thess 1:8-9

Rev 20:10

Rev 14:10-11

I know in the world we live in today, the popular belief among many preachers and Christians is that God is only good, kind, loving, and forgiving, and because of this - He will not throw anyone into Hell - to suffer for eternity. But that God will only leave us dead for eternity. This kind of teaching is false doctrine and does not conform to the bible, and Jesus own words. As Christian's we must always have a healthy fear of God.

Proverbs 1:7

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."

God tells us Hell is real!

Read and Believe!

Hi David0921,

Good discussion: my understanding of scripture is as yours, man will not be in the lake of fire for eternity, but also somewhat different. In Daniel 12:2 John 5:24-29 Revelation 20:11-15 we see all good, bad, and ugly will be resurrected so everyone will have a conscious existence to answer and be accountable on judgment day, the last day, and my understanding is that is Revelation 20:11-15.

Greek philosophy of the immortal soul has influenced the understanding of death so, if the soul is immortal and cannot die the burning in hell/lake of fire will be forever. Scripture says to me we are mortal, Romans 8:11 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 2 Corinthians 5:4. We see in Genesis 2:7 that man became a living soul, not a soul was placed in man, so when that breath of life/spirit is gone the body/soul is dead. The breath of life, Ecclesiastes 12:1-8 there will we be until the resurrection.

I could say more but in short, just for consideration, if there is eternal punishment, on resurrection day the unsaved will be given what scripture says only the saved will receive, an immortal body and eternal life? "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" So, the penalty for sin will be eternally over and done with, no more sin, and no more death for eternity, forever and ever.

God bless,

RLW

Thank you Jema for that encouragement.

We must always remember that any truth we may have come to is not because we are smarter or wiser than any one else. It is God Himself that must reveal truth to us from His Word, if indeed He has. And He will do that in accordance with His good pleasure on His time table, not ours.

I will say that I did not come to my beliefs regarding the nature of God's Judgment and Salvation Programs and my current understanding of end time events and what God declares about the churches and congregations of our day, solely by my own personal study while isolated somewhere in an ivory tower. But I have been blessed by faithful Bible teachers that have diligently searched the scriptures faithfully applying the principles of Bible interpretation that God has given us in the Bible itself. Some of that teaching can be found today in the ministry of SearchingHisWord and Alameda Bible Fellowship as I referenced previously.

We must also recognize that there are certain truths that could not be understood even by True Believers until we approach the time of the end as we read in Daniel 12:4

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

And Habakkuk 2:3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.

So if there was ever a time when we should be "searching the scriptures to see if these things be so", it is now.

True, David0921, 'stagnation' would be too subtle a word to more fully describe how the Church at large treats God's Word & deals with sin & rebuke of erring ones. Unfortunately, from my limited experience, it seems that the larger the Church (congregation), the weaker they are in some of these areas we've referred to. The smaller, & probably the more exclusive (sectarian) of them, keep a much more rigid control on behavior & adherence to the Word. Yet, saying that, often their teachings also tend to be a little off-track. A few however, I believe, have found the right balance.

Now, I have a query on what you had earlier written (& now), in discussion with Jema a few days ago: "So when we look at the nature of God's Judgment program very carefully, we find that the Final Punishment is annihilation, that is destruction". And I quote this as you also shared here, "When was the last time you heard a sermon that focused on the Judgment and Wrath of God for sin?" Obviously, I think I have misunderstood you, where it appears that you believe that the final state of man is, either he's enjoying eternal life with the Lord, or a cessation of all existence (annihilation, as you put it). And then the "Wrath of God for sin" as you now stated. Without making any further assumptions, maybe you could clarify your belief, as in my mind I'm unable to reconcile the two statements.

I believe that Matthew 10:28 was quoted as a reference to the complete destruction of soul & body, to which the Greek word does support; as it does to John 3:16 ("perish"), Romans 2:12, 1 Corinthians 8:11, 2 Peter 3:9, and many others. But reference wasn't made to Daniel 12:1,2; Matthew 18:8,9; Matthew 25:46; Jude 1:7; Revelation 20:10,14,15; & others. In the light of these other Scriptures as well as the essence of the Gospel message which requires an eternal suffering, or else we don't have any Good News of salvation to give, how should we understand your statements? Blessings.

Heaven part 3

Rewards in heaven

Genesis 15:1 is the only scripture I have found that shows that God Himself is our reward. Certainly it is enough; and will be enough for those saved even without receiving rewards to know that He fulfilled what was needed on their behalf despite only getting to heaven as though "through the fire." ( 1 Cor. 3:15). Hebrews 11:6 states that we MUST believe that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. That is part of the nature of God; and should help us desire to see our brothers and sisters exalted and rejoice in the small ways God can use our service to help build them up in the faith. The admonition of Revelation 3:11 should also keep us pursuing the Lord until the end as we can lose our rewards to another if not careful.

I have probably discussed before several pasages on the type of rewards due to particular service which we do based (hopefully) on our gifts and calling. The reader can look up passages related to faithful preaching of the Word (and the more stringent judgments attached to that responsibility); those who patiently await His coming as Malachi 3 discusses with the book of remembrance and other verses talking about patient endurance until the end; and of course rewards for the martyrs for Christ.

These would no doubt represent levels of authority in some respect in heaven; and I have also brought up the verses in regard to ruling few or many cities; also we could look at 1 Cor. 5:41 for that. We should also note the reward of the evangelist those who lead many to righteousness shining as the stars in Daniel 12:3. That could also refer to end time events as with that of the great multitude martyred seen in heaven in association with the 144,000 taken from the Great Tribulation ( Rev. 7:9).

To be continued.

The following are the fundamental principles of Bible study that the God Himself lays down in the Bible:

Christ is the author of the whole Bible. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we behold his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." John 1:1,14

"Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit" 2 Peter 1:21

Christ spoke in parables, earthly stories with a heavenly meaning. "But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples." Mark 4:34

We compare spiritual with spiritual. "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." 1 Corinthians 2:13

The historical-grammatical method of interpretation employed by the churches seeks to discover the writer's intended meaning, and thus fails to recognize that God is the author and that we are to compare spiritual things with spiritual to discover the underlying gospel message.

Moreover, the churches fail to recognize that as we approach the end of the world, where we are today, God is unsealing truths that have been kept sealed until the time of the end ( Daniel 12:9-10). This is spoken of in the Bible as a vision that will speak at the end and not lie.

"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand."

"And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it. For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry." Habakkuk 2:2-3

The Bible

There has been a great deal of dialogue on this site recently regarding the authority of various translations of the Bible. Following is my understanding and belief:

1. Every single word and phrase in the original Hebrew and Greek is exactly the word and phrase that God chose to be included as His Holy Word. In other words, God is the One and Only Author of the BiblePaul, Jeremiah, Mark, Isaiah, etc. were inspired scribes taking what can be characterized as "dictation" from God Himself. Any other view has the result of diminishing the absolute authority of the Bible, no matter how we would argue that point.

2. God has guided and preserved the manuscripts that we currently have, and that were used by the King James translators (maybe others) and are 100% faithful to the original Words of God Himself.

3. The job of the translator, while not inspired as the original scribes like Paul and Jeremiah, etc., is to be as faithful as possible to a WORD FOR WORD translation. This is why the King James translators used italics to represent words that they added in order to make the sentence structure flow more easily in the translation.

4. In the English language, God has graciously given us in recent times, concordances and interlinear Tools so that we can check out the King James translation with the original Hebrew and Greek. That is what was to be done by the churches, and anyone that claims to be a teacher of the Bible.

5. Unfortunately, Very little intensive serious Bible study has been done by the churches and denominations after establishing their initial confessions and creeds. Sadly, this is the reason there were and are so many different understandings of various doctrines being taught in the churches. The Bible has lost it's Authority in the churches.

6. God has sealed up certain truths in the Bible that are being revealed only in our day as we approach the end. Daniel 12:9

7.THE BIBLE ALONE AND IN ITS ENTIRETY IS THE WORD OF GOD.

The Bible

This is a very long thread which I have not read through and do not plan to. I will just say this.

If we hope to come to truth, we must start with the understanding the Bible is the very WORD OF GOD. That is, in the original Hebrew and Greek every word and phrase is from the Mouth of God. God did not merely plant thoughts and ideas in the minds and hearts of Paul and Peter and Isaiah and Jeremiah, etc. and then guide them to write in their own style so that we cannot compare a word or phrase in Romans to Peter or Jeremiah or Isaiah. Some would teach this but it is not so. The Bible has ONE AND ONLY ONE AUTHOR. And that is God Himself.

This means that we want a translation that is as faithful on a word by word basis to the original languages as possible. Even if the translators did not understand precisely what God was teaching in a particular passage.

I am not a Bible scholar, but my understanding is that, in the English language, the King James version comes closest to this principle.

Fortunately, in our day, God had given us tools like concordances and interlinears so that we, and especially anyone that claims to be a teacher, can check out the translation of any word or phrase from the original languages where those words and phrases are used by God throughout the Bible.

In approaching the Bible we must understand that the Bible is its own interpreter as we compare scripture with scripture using the principles that God declares in the Bible itself. And that, particularly in our day, God is revealing or clarifying certain truths from the Bible that were there all the time but it had not been God's time to reveal them to believers ( Daniel 12:9).

Ultimately it is God Himself that leads us into truth as we search the scriptures applying the principles that God Himself declares in His Word.

TammyC:

The last day has been going on for 2000 years, Paul understood he was living in the last day.

The word of God is written to each person; as you study and read, it's YOU, his church, the SPIRIT of Christ is speaking to, not a collective BODY, your the body of Christ.

Revelation is the revealing of Jesus Christ TO YOU; his church, his bride.

That (Christ) WHICH IS, and WAS, and WILL BE.

The words of Revelation mean the same TO YOU as it did to the person reading them 1900 years ago.

The words in Revelation are; ALSO, prophecies found in Mosses and the Prophets, Revelation is just a second witness.

In Matthew Jesus said, to be AWARE of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel

The prophecy says the messiah will be CUT OFF in the middle of the week, and the abomination that maketh desolate SET UP, his happened at his death and resurrection.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be TAKEN AWAY (Christ become the once for all sacrifice) and the abomination that maketh desolate SET UP, shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days,

This 1290 days is the same 3 1/2 years spoken of in Revelation, the second witness.

The BEAST with seven heads and ten horns is also spoken of in Daniel.

Daniel 7:23 ...the FORTH BEAST shall be the forth (and last) kingdom on earth ....

The kingdom of Babylon (1st), the Medes and Persians (2nd), the kingdom of Grecia (3rd) and the KINGDOM OF GOD the 4th BEAST.

Luke 16:16 the law and prophets were until John, since that time the kingdom of God is preached ....

The forth BEAST: the kingdom of God has been on earth since John and will never cease to be, WHICH IS, and WAS and WILL BE: the last day, the sixth day in Genesis when man was CREATED by his resurrection with CHRIST.

God bless you.

Hello,

The Bible says we will sleep until Christ's return:

Daniel 12:2

Job 14:12

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

1 Corinthians 15:18-20

Matthew 9:24

A common reason why people assume they go straight to heaven is misinterpreting 2 Cor 5:8-10. The misinterpretation has been repeated so much its become standard dogma to many well meaning Bible readers. But the only problem is the Bible doesn't say that. Paul only says he'd "rather" absent from the body and present with the Lord. The word Rather is a preference. He's not making a broad statement about the afterlife that 100% of the time, when 100% of all people die, that instantly you skip judgment and are immediately with the Lord 100% of the time.

Adding further support to this is Paul in the previous book in 1 Corinthians 5:3 already said he was "absent" from the body when he couldn't meet with the Corinthians in person. Based on the same wording used, I think people are extrapolating way too much from Paul's preferential (rather) statement while ignoring the verses that already say everyone will face judgment and all the sleeping until Christ returns, etc. I would find it hard to ignore 5 verses in favor of one "rather" statement that Paul already used before. Paul also preferred everyone remain single like him- so the inferences seem to be disproportionately applied.

God bless.

Jimbob:

Show me the scripture that says there is a single antichrist.

All of Revelation has been explained in Moses and the Prophets,

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do NOTHING, but he REVEALETH to his servants the PROPHETS.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice (replaced by Christ being the LAMB) BE TAKEN AWAY, and the abomination that maketh desolate SET UP, shall be a thousand two hundred ninety days.

42 months, 3 1/2 years, this is the same 42 months in Revelation, Christ ministry on earth.

God Bless You!

Bro Chris love ya my man...But lemme give ya my slant on all the hermeneutics and exegesis in the world cd not open that book the new covenant in the right hand of the Father....John said i wept much b/c no one in heaven or earth cd open the book that Jesus wrote with his own blood....Remember that image in Daniel 2 had to be destroyed completely which is Churchanity....Thats y Paul was saying when that which is PERFECT is come ( the new covenant in his blood ) that which is done in part will be done away with...( Hermeneutics/Exegesis,..we see in part etc)....All the Hermeneutics and Exegesis of the world cd not open that book that was sealed by God himself with 7 seals....In Daniel 12:4...The woman cd not get pregnant till the book was opened simply b/c the contents of the book are the seeds of the sower the seeds/words of the bridegroom that is gonna initiate a birth of Christ in everybody ...The manchild in us Sinners....I will know them all from the least to the greatest... Jeremiah 31:34 kjv...She brought forth a manchild that is gonna rule all nations....Thats y Jesus was saying these things are HID ( sealed with 7 seals ) from the wise and prudent but only revealed unto babes and sucklings...The woman's Children the real H.G. the Children of Promise...As that which Is born of the spirit is spirit which is the spirit of truth the H.G...The manchild.. John 16:13

The bible is precious n holy...but the book in the right hand of the father cd not be opened till the 7 seals were broken...Which are spritual seals not anything to do with literal seals....The writen word...Nothin availeth anything in Christ Jesus but a new Creature... Gal 6:15....Not circumcision nor uncircumcision but only by that New Creature...Which is our new innerman the H.G. That Child of Promise....A baby Christ in the spirit...She brought forth a manchild which is gonna rule all nations...Which is that spirit of truth that is gonna reprove the whole world of sin and righteousness, judgement.

Because of some of the comments I see here, I feel compelled to again state what the Bible declares regarding how we are to view and interpret the Bible.

> Christ is the author of the WHOLE Bible. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we behold his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:1,14

> the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit 2 Peter 1:21

> Christ spoke in parables (earthly stories with a spiritual meaning). But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. Mark 4:34

> We compare spiritual with spiritual. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:13

The historical-grammatical method of interpretation seeks to discover the writer's intended meaning, customs of the times, and the writer's intended audience. This method, however, fails to recognize that GOD is the AUTHOR of the WHOLE Bible and that the WHOLE Bible is written for us TODAY.

Moreover, as we approach the end of the world, and the coming of the bridegroom, God is unsealing truths that have been kept sealed until the time of the end ( Daniel 12:9-10). This is spoken of in the Bible as a vision that will speak at the end and not lie ( Habakkuk 2:2-3).

God did not write the Bible so that it is easy to come to truth. Faithful Bible teachers that apply these principles can guide us in our understanding.

But THE BIBLE ALONE AND IN ITS ENTIRETY must be our ultimate authority as we compare scripture with scripture praying that God in His mercy would open our our understanding and lead us into Truth.

Hi Jesse,

Not to debate just something to consider.

I know many have this understanding of this abomination of desolation and applying it to Daniel 9:27. As you said it is in Daniel 9:27 Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11 and only in 11:31 and 12:11 does it say the abomination that maketh desolate.

As what happened in 167 BC with Antiochus Epiphanies committed two blasphemous acts in the second Jewish temple by setting up an altar to the Greek god Zeus and also, he sacrificed a pig on the altar, and much more, that is thought something similar will happen in the future with the antichrist.

The abomination of desolation is this horrible person or beast that will do this action that is vile, vicious or terrible in the temple that is said to be rebuilt that makes it desolate. This being is the one who does the act to make it desolate.

If we look at Daniel 9:27 it says, "for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." For the overspreading of abominations, this is saying because of abominations they have done, he shall make it desolate, not what he does makes it desolate.

Jesus disrobes this in Matthew 23:24-37, and He says what we read in Daniel 9:27. Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For their abominations Jesus is the one who makes it desolate for the overspreading of abominations they have done and their rejection of Him. "and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. The Roman army and total destruction.

I agree they may flee from Judea in the future they did just before 70 AD the believers in Jesus fled to Pella a region across the Jordan river and were saved.

Just something to consider.

God bless,

RLW

Mr. Spencer,

You mention "Hermeneutics". That is that key. The churches pretty much without exception and throughout the Bew Testament period have used the historical-grammatical method of interpreting scripture.

The historical-grammatical method of interpretation employed by the churches seeks to discover the writer's intended meaning, and thus fails to recognize that God is the author and that we are to compare spiritual things with spiritual to discover the underlying gospel message.

Moreover, the method of Bible interpretation employed by the churches fails to recognize that as we approach the end of the world, where we are today, God is unsealing truths that have been kept sealed until the time of the end ( Daniel 12:9-10). This is spoken of in the Bible as a vision that will speak at the end and not lie.

And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it. For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry. Habakkuk 2:2-3

Christ spoke in parables and without a parable spoke he not. That includes the language used by God in the Bible to convey actual historical events and prophecy.

WHAT IS THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION spoken of by Daniel

Matthew 24:15 Therefore when YOU SEE the abomination of desolation; spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the HOLY PLACE (whosoever readeth, let him understand).

You are the HOLY PLACE, the temple of GOD.

Christ was talking to those around him, so this APPLIED to them, as well as us, it was AT HAND, near to be reality.

Daniel 12:11 From the time the daily sacrifice (of animals) shall be TAKEN AWAY, and the abomination that maketh desolate SET UP, there shall be one thousand three hundred and thirty five days.

What is this 1,335 days? It's the changing of the COVENANTS, Christ coming as sinful flesh, and defeating

death; LIFE by Spirit, not blood.

Before the resurrection; LIFE was in the BLOOD, after the resurrecting, LIFE was from the Spirit.

Matthew 23:38 Behold your HOUSE is left unto you DESOLATE.

Man is THE HOUSE, now desolate without INHABITANT, it died on the cross.

Revelation 18:19 .....for in ONE HOUR (MAN, sinful fleshes death on the cross) is she made DESOLATE.

Revelation 17:17 ...and SHALL MAKE HER DESOLATE AND NAKED ..

Psalms 69:25 Let their habitation (house) be DESOLATE; and NONE dwell in their tents.

Isaiah 5:9 ...of a truth many houses shall be desolate ....

Are you DESOLATE; or has the Spirit of LIFE COME TO YOU?

Romans 8:2 For the LAW of the SPIRIT OF LIFE in Christ Jesus, has made us FREE from the LAW of sin and death.

Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over HIS OWN HOUSE, whose house you are ...

You died on the cross; and become DESOLATE, no LIFE, you were raised a body, a new creation, life no longer of the blood; but OF THE LIFE OF CHRIST, by the Spirit of our Father.

Colossians 1:27 ...this mystery .....Christ in you ....

God Bless YOU!

ISRAEL MY ELECT.

Isaiah 45:4.

Part 1.

Romans 2:25-29.

Colossians 3:11-12

and Galatians 3:27-39

These scriptures can trip you up when we use them for doctrine when talking about NATIONAL ISRAEL.

Some day God will open the eyes of Israel to show them that all their services was pointing them through the same door that the Gentiles goes through to get to the father. "CHRIST".

There will be two folds that will come together under one shepherd. There's no advantage to either fold. That's what Colossians 3:11-12 and Galatians 3:27-39 is saying. Angels, People, The Church and Israel is called elect in the Bible.

Israel and the Church has different origins and has a different path and destiny.

( Don't mistake that for having a different path for salvation.)

They have a separate purpose. When Jesus speaks of Israel as his elect in Matthew 24. he speaks of Israel as a nation. National Israel.

The Church isn't National Israel or "The new Israel. Is the Church Jacob also?

They're both are Chosen or elected by God to do the will of God for different purposes.

The bible makes references to both National Israel and the remnant.

Paul makes that distinction in Romans when he says all Israel is not Israel and when he mentions Kinsman of the flesh. Paul hammers away at this in Romans chapters 9,10 and 11.

Daniel 12:1 Speaks of National Israel.

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the ( CHILDREN OF THY PEOPLE ): and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time (THY PEOPLE) shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

"Daniels people is not the Church"

See key verses Daniel 9:24-27 in

Part 2.

Jimbob i just read your post saying where are the words of God....Remember God told Daniel 12:9 the book has the words of life but this book is sealed till the time of the end....Which answers to Rev 5...That book in the right hand of the father....That N.C. That Jesus wrote with his own blood....And Jere. 31:34....God Almighty tells us i will put my words in your hearts and minds....As Jesus says the sower will sow his seed the living WORD in our hearts and minds....by hearing his VOICE....And God tells us in Joel 2 :28 i will pour out of my Spirit on ALL FLESH....Which are his words his voice the living word...Your sons and daughters are gonna prophecy impling the whole family....I will KNOW THEM ALL from the least to the greatest....Thats everybody...That N.C. IN HIS BLOOD at Calvary....If i be lifted up ( his blood ) I will draw ALL MEN unto me....ok gbu