Discuss Genesis 17 Page 2

Blessings to all through our lord and savior Jesus Christ.

I have accepted our divine lord as my father of all my existence. I am studying the Bible and getting to be closer to my Father Abba through his teaching.

I have read this chapter and would like to know what it is meant by circumcising? What motions or act is done when a person is being circumcised spiritually?

Hi Giannis.

Part 1

As I promised I would get back to you on your reply and questioning.

Let's start with the verses you gave as the promises that Israel forfeited over to the Church.

1. Genesis 12:1-3,

2. Genesis 12:7,

3. Genesis 13:14-17,

4. Genesis 15:5-7

5. Genesis 15:13-15,

6. Genesis 15:18-21,

7. Genesis 17:4-10,

8. Genesis 21:17-18

You stated, "Abraham and his seed pass to Jesus and His children. and you say according to

Galatians 3:16. Paul atributes these verses to Christ it is obvious that they are for Israel as well.

Let's look at Galatians 3:14-17.

If you notice in the link the promise/covenant was not a land covenant. Verses 2-8 you gave are all the land covenant.

Did you notice in Genesis 15:15-17. God told Abraham he would die before they would enter the land?

Look how Stephen put in Acts 7:4-5.

"and is is after God performed the covenant!!" So when will he inherit it? Hebrews11:8-10.

Now the 1st verse is a preview of both. The Promise his seed going to be given land. "Israel"

( and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. ) "Christ"

This is the only portion associated with Galatians 3:16.

Here is the covenant Paul is speaking of in Galatians.

( And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; AND THY SEED SHALL POSSESS THE GATE OF "HIS" ENEMIES;

And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. )

Genesis 22:16-18.

The Gospel was preached even before there was a law to be broken.

Galatians 3:8.

" Important verse"

I removed "if it" because I believe it's in italics and shouldn't be there.

( Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet be confirmed, NO MAN DISANNULLETH, OR ADDETH THERETO.) Galatians 3:15.

Part 1.

DearSpencer, lets talk about God's promises to Abraham.

Lets go to Genesis. The verses that describe God's promises to Abraham are the following:

1. Genesis 12:1-3,

2. Genesis 12:7,

3. Genesis 13:14-17,

4. Genesis 15:5-7

5. Genesis 15:13-15,

6. Genesis 15:18-21,

7. Genesis 17:4-10,

8. Genesis 21:17-18

Now in most of them God gives His promises to Abraham and his seed. Who is this seed. the obvious answer is that it is his biological descedants. Paul in his epistle to Galatians 3:16 disagrees, he says "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.". So we can agree that all the promises given to Abraham and his seed pass to Jesus and His children, Which are they? The 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and the 8th. Only one is left the first. You will argue that although Paul atributes those verses to Christ it is obvious that they are for Israel as well, the land covenant as you call it. You are right about that. But that promise that Cannan will be given to Israel by God wasn't fulfiled when Joshua and his descendants conquered that land? Yes it was. So what other promise/covenant given to Abraham is left to be fulfiled? I cannot see any other, correct me if I am wrong. GBU

Hi Elle.

Great question., Here's a few scriptures you can look over that may have answers to your questions.I would chime in when time permits. In the meantime hopefully someone can help us.

NOTICE THE PROMISES AND COVENANT MADE BY GOD WITH NO PARTICIPATION ALLOWED BY MAN.

Genesis 15:1-12.

Genesis 17:18-19.

Romans 9:6-9.

Galatians 4:22-31.

EMPHASIS.

This Promised Covenant is the work of God and can't be annulled by man.

Likewise you see a similar method as a allegory in the birth of Jacob and Essau.

Gods elected way, "By grace ".

Romans 9:10-12. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

All for now

God bless.

GOD is = GOD , Genesis 1,

GOD is = GOD ALMIGHTY, Genesis 17:1, Genesis 28:3, Genesis 35:11, Genesis 48:3,

JEHOVAH, Exodus 6:3, FATHER : Matthew 23:9, Matthew 6:6-10, GOD of thy father, GOD of Abraham, GOD of Isaac, GOD of Jacob, Exodus 3:6,

Many times GOD is referred to by what HE has done: GOD that sees; Genesis 16:13, GOD that provides,

Hopefully this is helpful

I understand what you are saying, but not everyone on our planet has a belief in it.

The Covenant of the Land was CUT between God and Abraham; Abrahams children born ONLY with Sarah: Gods Perfect Will.

In Gods PERMISSIVE WILL, he blessed Ishmael too. It was not a covenant for any lands God set apart for Israel.

Israel's Lands (boundaries) are recorded in heaven and in the BIBLE. Look at the ancient maps of Abraham's time.

Throughout History, those boundaries have been illegally changed. God does Not Change. He personally cut the covenant Himself.

Most modern day maps of Israel deny what is recorded in the Bible: the Original Deed.

More info: God cut the covenant Himself. The Deed to the Land= Genesis 17:7:8

Genesis 16:10-16, 17:36-21

Genesis 21:14-18, Genes 25:12-17

Promise & blessing on Ishmael

Genesis 17:18-26. Story Gen. 21:16-21

ISRAEL's SIZE TODAY=

Israel stretches 424 km (263 mi) from north to south, its width ranges from 114 km (71 miles) length, to 15 km (9.3 miles) width, at its narrowest point. *Israel and New Jersey are similar in size.

Folks, this is why the end of this fight/war__ will be fought at ARMAGEDDON__in Israel, in the the Valley of Megiddo. As it is written in the Bible, so shall it be done.

There will be NO PEACE until THE PRINCE OF PEACE returns

We're getting close to that time. "wars, rumors of wars, nations rising up against each other. Read Matthew 24, Luke 21 and the Book of Daniel, minor prophets books: if you want to know what's going to happen. If you don't read much; listen to some Nelson Walters videos on YouTube.

There's going to be 7 Seals opened; 7 Trumpets; 7 Bowls of Judgment.

The internet "thought leaders" are going to force one world currency (money system, one world government and one worldwide religion. Look for it now.

Don't be deceived. Choose Jesus NOW. Lack of food , water and fuel are signs. Somebody please preach this every day. Signs are speeding up.

Ishmael the son of Abraham :

Genesis 25:13-18, 1Chronicles 1:29-31,

Genesis 16:10-12, Genesis 16:15, Genesis 17:20-21, Genesis 25:8-10,

Genesis 28:9, Genesis 36:3,

Ishmael the son of Nethaniah

2Kings 25:23,25, Jeremiah 40:8,14,15,16, Jeremiah 41:1-18,

Ishmael the son of Azel

1Chronicles 8:38, 1Chronicles 9:44,

Ishmael the son of Jehohanan

2Chronicles 23:1,

Ishmael the son of Pashur,

Ezra 10:22,

1Timothy 1:4,

In Genesis chapters 12 to 50, there is only one Covenant, that God made with Abram.

Genesis 12:1-3, the Covenant made. But of this Covenant, several 'expansions' to it were made to fully express it. And they are:

Genesis 15:18, God ratifies that Covenant in a national perspective.

Genesis 17:4-6,16, God ratifies that Covenant in an international perspective.

Genesis 17:7, God ratifies that Covenant as an Everlasting Covenant.

Genesis 17:10-14, God ratifies that Covenant by an act of circumcision (also in Stephen's message in Acts 7:8).

So, if you're thinking of these 'aspects' of the Covenant, then one can see & appreciate several Covenants. However, I believe most would deduce that only one Covenant was made with Abram, which composed of these four separate parts of the One.

Hi Wayne. Do you mean, "why was Titus not required to be circumcised"?

If that's what you're enquiring about, then that was, in part, because Titus was a Gentile (a Greek) & not a Jew. Every Jewish male at eight days of age, was required to be circumcised ( Genesis 17:10-12 ff) as part of the Covenant God made with Israel, separating them as a special people from the surrounding heathen.

When the Apostle Paul & Barnabas went up to Jerusalem to meet with the Jerusalem Council of Apostles & Elders (see Acts 15:2), he took Titus with them as well. But the Council agreed that Titus, a gentile, should not be circumcised; some were believing & requiring (chiefly by the Judaizers: Galatians 2:4), that gentiles must first be circumcised (i.e. become 'Jews') before they could be accepted as (Christian) believers. So with the agreement & blessing of the Council, the apostles & the early Church were unified that neither circumcision nor the workings of the Law ( Galatians 2:16; Galatians 3:2-13) should ever be imposed on gentiles, even as the Law no longer had strength on anyone (Jew or Gentile) when only God's Grace through faith brought salvation & liberty to those now in Christ. This was a major aspect of the early Church as they battled with not only Gentiles being brought into the body of believers, but that all the Laws that served to show the Jews their inability to keep them, were also now cast aside, because of "Christ is (now brought) the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" ( Romans 10:4).

Hi Charles.

The conflict over Israel is not the wrong DNA.

GOD said he will make a nation out of Abraham. Genesis 12:2.

God confirmed a covenant with Abraham and his seed afterwards. Genesis 17:7.

These promises was also confirmed with Isaac and Jacob.

It's the heir of promise given to Abraham.

Down through Isaac and Jacob that is fought over.

See: Galatians 4:29-30. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

The seed that was promised to come that would bless the world is Christ.

Galatians 3:16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

If you study the Genealogy of Christ you will see they're Gentiles in it. Ruth being one. and also Rahab.

God sanctified Israel and gave them the seal of circumcision. "A cutting away the filt of the flesh " Gentiles was considered unclean. but if the wanted to come into the camp and remain they had to be circumcised.

Genesis 17:12. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

TODAY CIRCUMCISION AVAILETH NOTHING.

Galatians 5:6.

Galatians 6:15.

We become that new creature through our new birth in Christ. "Baptism of The Holyspirit ".

God bless.

Hi Charles.

The conflict over Israel is not the wrong DNA.

GOD said he will make a nation out of Abraham. Genesis 12:2.

God confirmed a covenant with Abraham and his seed afterwards. Genesis 17:7.

These promises was also confirmed with Isaac and Jacob.

It's the heir of promise given to Abraham.

Down through Isaac and Jacob that is fought over.

See: Galatians 4:29-30. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

The seed that was promised to come that would bless the world is Christ.

Galatians 3:16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

If you study the Genealogy of Christ you will see they're Gentiles in it. Ruth being one. and also Rahab.

God sanctified Israel and gave them the seal of circumcision. "A cutting away the filt of the flesh " Gentiles was considered unclean. but if the wanted to come into the camp and remain they had to be circumcised.

Genesis 17:12. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

TODAY CIRCUMCISION AVAILETH NOTHING.

Galatians 5:6.

Galatians 6:15.

We become that new creature through our new birth in Christ. "Baptism of The Holyspirit ".

God bless.

Hi BMW.

Part 7 of 7.

(3) Gentiles were not required, but had the privilege of, joining the Hebrew family via the proselytization process (cf. Acts 2:10; 13:16). Additionally, there were many instructions in Moses' law designed to benefit the "strangers" (Gentiles) who came among Israelite people ( Leviticus 19:33ff).

(4) The Lord sent Jonah to the Gentiles of Nineveh ( Jonah 3:1). Archer said that the theme of the book of Jonah "is that God's mercy and compassion extend even to the heathen nations on condition of their repentance" (1964, 295). Jonah is sometimes called "the first apostle to the Gentiles."

(5) Four Gentile women were woven into the genealogical fabric of the Messiah-Tamar, Rahab, Ruth, and Bathsheba-in both legal and biological senses ( Matthew 1:5-6; Luke 3:31-32).

(6) In addition, the prophets clearly revealed Jehovah's redemptive concern for the Gentiles, who were to be grafted into the New Testament church on an equal basis with the Jews ( Genesis 17:4; 22:18; Psalms 2:8; Isaiah 42:1, 6; 49:6; cf. Romans 11:1ff; Galatians 3:28; Ephesians 2:11ff).

Conclusion

There always has been a way for honest people to be right with their Creator-if they seek after him and choose to please him ( Acts 17:27ff). God so loved the entire world and gave his Son as a potential redeeming sacrifice for all who avail themselves of his gift ( John 3:16). He is the loving benefactor to everyone who submits to his will in faithful obedience ( 1 Timothy 2:4; Hebrews 5:8-9; cf. 2 Peter 3:9).

Article by Wayne Jackson.

I share this information for one to go over. I haven't had the time to do no more than glance over the beginning being I'm out town on business again.

Hopefully some others can share on this great question you asked.

God bless.

MUSLIMS BELIEVE JESUS IS MESSIAH TOO!

Muslims, Christians and Jews alike serve the one true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Jews are under Isaac, Muslims are under Ishmael and Christians are under Jesus.

As it is written in the Hebrew Tanakh (Torah & writings of the prophets/Old Testament), Abraham had two sons; one of a bondwoman Hagar unto Ishmael and Isaac born of a free woman Sarah the bloodline unto the descendants of Abraham ( Genesis 21:12). God called as this bloodline for the Messiah but God did not forget Abraham's first son Ishmael. God Honors Ishmael and promised Abraham he will make Ishmael a great nation ( Genesis 21:13) which is long before God promised Moses to make the Jews a great nation ( Exodus 32:10).

When the Lord first made a covenant with Abraham ( Genesis 17) God said it will be an everlasting covenant with he that is born of the house and he that is bought with money as servant of the house ( Genesis 17:13) and the covenant is the circumcised flesh. All of Abrahams house was circumcised in Genesis 17. Isaac who the covenant unto the elect of God is through wasnt born yet and it was Ishmael who was circumcized.

There is only one God, the God of Abraham. Ishmael grew up with God And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer ( Genesis 21:20). Ismael had 12 princes ( Genesis 25:16) which are the bloodline of Arab (Muslim) tribes today.

The blood lineage of Prophet Muhammad directly descends from the tribe of Ishmael's second son Kedar ( Genesis 25:12-17). God told Abraham that Ishmael Shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren ( Genesis 16:12).

ALL THE NATIONS OF THE WORLD WILL BE BLESSED IN ABRAHAM ( Genesis 22:18)!

Abraham's circumzied himself and his son Ishmael ( Genesis 17:26) and all the males of his house who were born into house or were bought as servants and circumcised them ( Genesis 17:23) grafting them all into the promise also!

Muslims, Christians and Jews alike serve the one true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Jews are under Isaac, Muslims are under Ishmael and Christians are under Jesus.

As it is written in the Hebrew Tanakh (Torah & writings of the prophets/Old Testament), Abraham had two sons; one of a bondwoman Hagar unto Ishmael and Isaac born of a free woman Sarah the bloodline unto the descendants of Abraham ( Genesis 21:12). God called as this bloodline for the Messiah but God did not forget Abraham's first son Ishmael. God Honors Ishmael and promised Abraham he will make Ishmael a great nation ( Genesis 21:13) which is long before God promised Moses to make the Jews a great nation ( Exodus 32:10).

When the Lord first made a covenant with Abraham ( Genesis 17) God said it will be an everlasting covenant with he that is born of the house and he that is bought with money as servant of the house ( Genesis 17:13) and the covenant is the circumcised flesh. All of Abrahams house was circumcised in Genesis 17. Isaac who the covenant unto the elect of God is through wasnt born yet and it was Ishmael who was circumcized.

There is only one God, the God of Abraham. Ishmael grew up with God And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer ( Genesis 21:20). Ismael had 12 princes ( Genesis 25:16) which are the bloodline of Arab (Muslim) tribes today.

The blood lineage of Prophet Muhammad directly descends from the tribe of Ishmael's second son Kedar ( Genesis 25:12-17). God told Abraham that Ishmael Shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren ( Genesis 16:12).

Ishmael's name means: God has heard thy affliction ( Genesis 16:11).

Abraham did not only marry Hagar who bare Ishmael and Sarah who bare Isaac but Abraham also took another wife Keturah whom he married after Sarah died ( Genesis 25:1) and she bare him six sons ( Genesis 25:2). With Hagar, Sarah and Keturah ALL THE NATIONS OF THE WORLD WILL BE BLESSED IN ABRAHAM ( Genesis 22:18)!

I've listed eight references to Ishmael in chronological order:

Genesis 16:11,16; Genesis 17:20; Genesis 17:25,26; Genesis 25:9; Genesis 25:13; Genesis 25:17.

I like to answer biblical questions mostly with Scripture because I believe The HOLY Spirit will teach us.

This full thought of the scriptures you want clarity on : Acts 10:26-46, starts in Acts 10:10-15, with the vision.

Acts 10:28 , I believe Peter was referring to Leviticus 10:10-11, Old Testament Law,

Acts 10:26, Peter didn't want Cornelius to worship him, or reverence him that way, he corrected him.

Mark 1:1-11, Luke 3:21-22, Luke 4:14-15,

Mark 16:6-17, New tongues, Jesus risen from the (grave), ate with them,

Acts 7:8, promise of Covenant, circumcision ; Genesis 17:10, Romans 4:11-12, 1 Corinthians 7:18,19, Galatians 5:6, Colossians 3:11,

Hopefully these are all helpful & pray for understanding

Dgjot, Paul spoke about this extensively in Galatians and elsewhere. At the council of Jerusalem that Paul attended with James, John, and Peter, the decision was made tat Gentiles do not need to be circumcised to be saved. Paul said that it does not matter if one is or not. With that said, I don't really think that it was customary in the early centuries for gentile males to be circumcised. Whenever it came into practice in the Gentile world it had become custom. It has no spiritual significance. But it seemed to be recommended for sanitary purposes in less sanitary times than today. It would be easy for a male to get infections between the foreskin and shaft without good hygiene. In more modern times, I think most people had their male infants circumcised so they would resemble their fathers and other males they may view. That was our reason for circumcising our three sons. I know of people who didn't without any problems and some who did have problems with infection. It is a personal choice parents can make for their infant, but it may not be covered by insurance.

I suppose you could google the history of it and find out more. I just haven't felt a reason to do so, but you may find information that answers your question.

In regards to Ishmael, he shouldn't have been. Sarah was faithless. Instead of waiting on God's promise that she would bear a child, she coerced Abraham into lying with Hagar the Egyptian. For the last 1400+ years, we have witnessed the long term effects of Sarah's faithlessness. Ishmael is the father of the idolatrous Islamic hordes.

If circumcision is an agreement between God and Abraham, why have all male babies (Jewish or Gentile) since Jesus died and God raised Him from the dead and he ascended into heaven, also been required to be circumcised?? Since Jesus was born into a Jewish family, I'm sure he too was circumcised. But I don't remember reading anywhere, where he required it for His followers.

In other words, here in 2021 why are male babies (regardless of religious affiliation) still being circumcised? That's a Jewish ritual, not a Christian one.

Genesis 17 has never and will be not change God's promise to Abraham with wife Sarah and son, Isaac. God cut the covenant Himself. The Deed to the Land= Genesis 17:7:8

Genesis 16:10-16, 17:36-21

Genesis 21:14-18, Genes 25:12-17

Promise & blessing on Ishmael

Genesis 17:18-26. Story Gen. 21:16-21

Isaac was the son prophesied of when the 2 angels came back from destroying Sodom and Gomorrah.

God cut the Covenant of Land with Abraham with Sarah his wife. Hagar was called bondwoman. God blessed Ishmael; gave him wealth, princes, kingdoms. But Israel was Isaacs Inheritance.

The Bible says that God was with Ishmael.

We have to understand that Ishmael was born of the permissive Will of God.

Gods perfect Will was to Abraham and the prophesies son, Isaac. Then Jacob.

No matter how history unfolds, The lands and boundaries of Israel are under Gods protection. If you think about looking at a map, Ishmael's portion of the lands are greater. But through the scriptures we know this war will continue to Armageddon.

All countries of the world have a part of the ending of this story. Even Russia, China and the USA. It's written in Daniel.

Everybody is going to have to witness the final destruction of this very ancient war. All this land peoples have fought and shed blood upon; will be destroyed at the end of all days. 2 Peter 3

It's inescapable. It's been written and it will happen. Believers in Messiah Jesus will escape from it. He's the Son of Man, and the Son of Jehovah God.

It's written the earth will be renewed for 1000 years following its total destruction. We have to be born again, book of John chapter 3 verse 5.

A lot of us have unsaved loved ones. To live after the destruction; we must choose Jesus. All have sinned, so we must choose the one who never sinned: Jesus.

With Christ's love I have taken the time to reach out to you. To Jesus, you were worth dying for.

Mishael

Chris

thank you for your reply, especially the additional information about Muhammed. I need to learn more about this since my oldest son just married a Muslim woman from Asia. She is kind-hearted and I am praying for her ehart to be softened to hear the truth of the gospel and believe.

Well written, GiGi & I fully concur. Indeed, Muhammed did learn & absorb some things from Judaism, but he also had a 'Christian' wife (one of several other wives of varying persuasions), & it's our understanding that this 'Christian' woman wasn't a true believer & had her beliefs rooted in Roman Catholicsm or some off-shoot of it. So there was that influence that he also had. As well, with the plethora of apocryphal writings around, Muhammed appeared to glean much from the 'Gospel of Barnabas'. He rejected the four Gospels that we have (even as the Jews also reject), as certainly that would create problems for him. We see this in his beliefs, the rejecting of the crucifixion of Jesus (claiming rather, that God had placed a substitute on the Cross: Judas Iscariot?), yet believing that Jesus was one of the most holiest of prophets, Whom God had raised up to Heaven miraculously. And of course, there were many factual errors & absurdities in that spurious gospel that helped formulate his own writings, which he claimed came from Heaven.

With the misunderstanding, hence denial of the Triune God, his belief that he was prophesied to come as the next prophet, the rejection of the New Testament & apostolic writings, & obedience to the Laws of God, especially as those revealed in the Quran & the Hadith, ensured that Muhammed remained disconnected from the Truth & to be the leader of others believing this deception & going into a Christless eternity. So when we (in Pakistan) gave out books containing the Gospels we know & love, or of the lives of Abraham, his sons, David & the prophets (all whom Muslims consider as prophets), many eyes were opened for the first time as they read narratives that were not found in the Quran. And when those readers enquired before the Muslim clerics, one can only imagine the anger & furore that resulted. But the Word of God cannot be bound & will always bring liberty, joy & peace to all who call upon the Name of the LORD through His Son.

Hello Chris, Great reply!

I would like to add that circumcision was a command for all of Israel, not only Jews. But by the time of Jesus, Israel had been scattered across the world along with many Jews, but in the holy land, mostly Jews lived there. The Israelites were people of the Law and circumcision before Christ. But they did not have to be bound by these through faith in Jesus. the law of grace set them free from the covenant of Law and circumcision Muhammed copied much from the Jewish faith and put himself and his followers under bondage to the Law when he could have lived free from this bondage if he had believed in Jesus, since salvation had already come into the world when Muhammed lived. Sad that he was deceived and led many down the wrong path. Part of the bondage of the Law makes one a slave to sin. The constant conflict, hatred, and killing that goes on between Jews and Muslims is a result of this bondage.

It seems that God worked differently in the Old Testament in setting a people apart for Himself than in the New Testament.

However, I believe that true faith in God as He revealed Himself in both Testaments is equivalent. When God appeared to Noah, Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Isaiah, Ezekiel Jeremiah, etc. and spoke with with them, they believed the True God they saw and spoke with, even ate with (as Abraham did). God decides who's faith is "saving faith" regardless of the time frame one lives in. This is not to diminish the knowledge of Jesus and the gospel message. Those who hear the gospel and believe it have "saving faith". Those who haven't heard the gospel due to living prior to Jesus' advent will be judged on belief in the True God as He revealed Himself to them in that time. The sacrifice of Jesus reaches back in time to the beginning, just as it is effective now and into the future.it is for all time.

Agreed. thank you for your reply

Believing and Faith It is interesting how many times it is said that there was spiritual faith in the gospels and old testament when in galatians 3:23+24 before faith came kept under the law spiritual faith came with what was accomplished by Jesus Christ and given the birthday of the church on Pentecost. Before pentecost a person could believe God and it was counted unto them for righteousness Abraham but that is different from spiritual faith of Jesus Christ. This is a case where the translators took the liberty to use the word pistis for either believing or spiritual faith at there liberty or according to there theology. Also Jesus Christ fulfilled and ended the law which ushered in the age of Grace which we live in and are able to walk in the spiritual law of love agape by our daily believing walk in the faith of Jesus Christ.

The two marks defining the people of God (Israel) were Circumcision & giving of the Law. No other people or nation received those directives from God ( Genesis 17:10,11; Leviticus 26:46). In regards to the Law, they were to learn God's requirements for a familial relationship to Him, to their society, & in their personal lives. For circumcision, they were to be marked out in a way distinct from any other (different from any body markings, cuttings or disfigurement of the heathen, even if there was an accidental loss of an organ or an appendage). And of course, the Apostle Paul spoke of this in Romans 2:25-29, connecting the two directives together - that one couldn't be without the other to the Jew - and since the Law couldn't be kept perfectly, true circumcision then must be of the heart & not of the flesh to count before God. I wonder whether what was given as a Mark of distinction & also for hygiene purposes, was also to alert the Jew that this seemingly unnatural act (of circumcision) was to point him to what the apostle now learned as a believer.

And this practise of circumcision continued, not only within Judaism, but also Islam. Yet as much as Islamists (Arabs) might have their heritage back to Seth, yet "in Isaac shall thy seed be called" ( Genesis 21:12 & Romans 9:6-8). And this rejection of Ishmael by God will always keep those adherents at odds with the "seed of Isaac", & will most likely figure in those awful days of devastation that lie ahead.

Abraham was given amazing prophecies and promises concerning his son, Isaac, and Isaac had not been conceived yet!

But God already knew Isaac from eternity's viewpoint.

Interesting that God called Abraham to walk with God and be perfect. But we all know that Abraham was a sinner like every person is. I get from this verse that as we walk with God, His righteousness covers us while His Spirit is sanctifying us (Making us holy) as He is changing us into Christ's image from glory to glory (bit by bit or moment by moment?).

Since Abraham knew he could father a child (Ishmael) he may have taken this promise into the marriage bed, anticipating conception more than before! And in 3 months Sarah did conceive just as God had said would happen. I'm sure that strengthened Abraham and Sarah's faith even more. Just like experience answers to our prayers strengthen our faith and trust in God.

Hallelujah to the Almighty God of Abraham!

The first covenant God made was with Himself for Abraham. The second covenant was between God and Abraham, that all males would be circumcised. God knew best to have babies circumcised. My dad was circumcised as an adult. My mom said he was very uncomfortable after it until he healed. She also said that he said that sex was more pleasurable uncircumcised. Maybe God commanded circumcism in order to help men be faithful or considerate of their wives by reducing the pleasure after circumcism. Don't know if this is the case for most men who are circumcised as adults after they have already sexually active. Interesting that other cultures with a low view of women circumcise girls in order that they do not feel much pleasure in intercourse. God's way is always better.

I can tell from this verse that Abraham loved Ishmael and wanted him to be included in the covenant, too. I think he laughed because he realized his and Sarah's age and knew that it would take a miracle for them to have a child. I don't think that he didn't believe God's promise. He just found it humorous. God did not punish him for laughing. He knew Abrahams heart. Ishmael's 12 princes are said to have seeded the Arab nations. Interesting, because that makes the Arab people Semitic if they trace their line to Ishmael or any of the 6 children Abraham fathered with Keturah after Sarah died. It seems that Jews want to own the sole right to be considered Semitic. Truth is, any person descended from Shem is Semitic and anyone descended from Eber is Hebrew, not just the Israelites. Something to think about. maybe broadening our ideas about the people that sprang from that area.

Interesting that He was making the covenant with Abraham, not with Abraham and Sarah. Does this mean that God saw Abraham and Sarah as one inn Abraham, harkening back to Adam and Eve in Genesis?

And Phillip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Mark 8:37

But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Matthew 13:16

Then Peter said into them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

John 6:38

And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Matthew 3:17

And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

Genesis 17:11

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing the word of God.

Romans 10:17

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Colossians 2:11-12

Know ye not, that so many of us were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:3

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in the likeness of his resurrection:

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Romans 6:4-8

10-27 Page 2