Discuss Hebrews 4 Page 2

Brother S Spencer,

I am sorry if we do not agree, and sorry for the delayed reply.

My understanding, we have two trees, and two Adams one tree associated with the first Adam and the other with the last Adam. Did God know what the first Adam would do? Yes. Does that mean Adam was not made perfect without sin? No. Everything before the first day of creation until the new earth and the new heaven was and is in God's plan. Can we comprehend that? No. Can we know how God will judge anyone before the law or all the people after the law but never heard the commands of God or of Him sending His Son to die for us? Revelation 20:11-15

Two men walked this earth that did not have an earthly father the first and the last Adam. The first was disobedient and the second was obedient unto death. Three people came into the world without a sinful nature Adam, Eve, and Jesus. There was no sin in the first Adam until he disobeyed God, the curse was not given to him or mankind before Adam disobeyed and sinned.

In Scripture, we are told Jesus was tempted the same as we are, Hebrews 4:15 "yet without sin".

Jesus had a will of His own Luke 22:42 Jesus was not just a man His Father was God, He could be tempted, and He was obedient to the Father. If Jesus was unable to disobey and unable to sin if He chose to, how can we say He was tempted and how could He fulfill and overcome the curse of death, and the law and He/Jesus the Son of God die for our sins? Would Satan accept anything other than a man fulfilling the law and taking away his power of death Hebrews 2:14?

God bless,

RLW

Brother Ronald.

When Adam sinned it was his imperfections manifesting itself.

Adam and Eve eyes were opened after they ate of the fruit. They were now able to see things that were there that they never seen before!

Is it possible that without the knowledge of good and evil sin is not imputed as we see in Romans 5:12-13 and John 9:41.

Let's take a closer look at Romans 5, being that it seems relevant to our discussion.

Romans 5:12-14 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

(For until the law sin was in the world: BUT SIN IS NOT IMPUTED WHEN THERE IS NO LAW. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

What do we inherit from Adam? Just his offence?

What about his nature before and after the fall?

I'm having trouble presenting this so let me give an example by way of a hypothetical scenario.

Let's imagine Adam and Eve had children before the fall, (eating of the fruit of the tree) and also children afterwards.

Would all of them inherit Adam's offense or just those born afterwards?

I believe they all would because Adam had a nature that was bound to fall.

One that was subject to sin.

As for Christ We've been over Matthew 4:1-11.

That wasn't a test to see if he would sin but rather to prove him.

It was to show he was who the Scripture say he was.

The Son of God.

And you are referring to Hebrews 4:15. My understanding of that is Christ "being in the flesh" he was able to relate to our testing but WASN'T ABLE to Succumb to the testing and sin.

God bless.

The Day of the Lord arrived,the 7th and last Day,or 7th and last millennium.There are many things to happen from now on

according to the Word of GOD.As all of us know,the Word of GOD is from everlasting to everlasting,the Word is GOD,GOD Himself,self-executing,so the most important thing to be LITERALLY fulfilled now is the establishment of GOD's Kingdom,understand?which was preached by our Lord around 2000 years ago to establish it in this time:Hoseas 6:2-3 and 1Corinthians 15:24-27 and Revelation 11:15-18,take a look,there are many biblical references.

The main focus now,and from now on,is the establishment of GOD's Kingdom preached by our Lord JESUS Christ as said Paul Apostle: Philippians 3:20-21

20For our conversation is in heaven(heaven? Ephesians 1:3-8);from whence also we look for the Saviour,the Lord Jesus Christ:

21Who shall change our vile body,that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body,according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.-->Is this promise OK for you,is it in your remembrance/mind?

2Timothy 2:4-5

4No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please Him who has chosen him to be a soldier.-->(or to

please the One who enlisted him to the war--> Revelation 12:7-12).

5And if a man also strive for masteries(dominion),yet is he not crowned,except he strive lawfully-->by the Word of GOD: Hebrews 4:9-13)

Revelation 11:15-18

15-...The kingdoms of this world are become the Kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ;and He shall reign for ever and ever.

...

18-And the NATIONS were(will be)angry,and GOD's WRATH is come...(GOD's WRATH comes upon all the NATIONS,get ready not to suffer GOD's WRATH,but to receive glorious rewards as says the verse)

Ro.8:18-19

18I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us

19For the earnest expectation of the creature waits for the manifestation of the sons of GOD

Page 2. Jaz.

The other point: Hebrews 5:8,9. Unfortunately, I don't share your understanding, as you wrote, "those sufferings brought him to a state of obedience". If Jesus had to learn how to obey, through His sufferings in life & leading to the Cross, it implies that He had times of disobedience at various stages in His Life. We know that Jesus was perfect & sinless; why should these life's lessons teach Him how to obey when He was sinless & always obeyed?

Rather, when we look at both verses, 'obedience' wasn't a trait He had to learn (as how we sinners have to learn how to behave & obey). But He always obeyed His Father, so that when He "became the author of eternal salvation", the suffering He had to endure caused Him to cleave to His Father even more in unflinching obedience to His Will & thus showed His full suitability as a Sacrifice for sin. Obedience was not something Jesus had to learn to do, rather to put His Obedience to a very practical test through sufferings & identifying with us in ours & we in Him ( Hebrews 4:15, Hebrews 2:10,11). So Jaz, you have stated your points clearly here. Thank you.

I also do agree that Christ was impeccable. I believe Scripture does agree also as in,

Hebrews 2:14

"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;"

Hebrews 2:18

"For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted."

Philippians 2:7

"But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"

SUF'FERED, participle passive Borne; undergone; permitted; allowed.

TEMPT'ED, participle passive Enticed to evil; provoked; tried.

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin."

1 John 3:5, KJV

Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:"

1 Peter 2:22, KJV

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

Hebrews 9:28, KJV

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

Hebrews 4:15, KJV

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

2 Corinthians 5:21, KJV

I understand why some look at this differently, but I do feel if He could sin How could He be GOD ALMIGHTY? God cannot sin, has no part with sin... Tempts no man to sin. I do agree with you Brother so I hope I'm not coming off as I do not. Have a good day God Bless...

Hi Ronald.

Part 1.

You stated; "We are told

our Savior our priest and the only mediator between us, and God was tempted as we are tempted, would not this temptation only be valid if he could succumb to temptation and was able to sin?

As you said,

I know we have discussed this in the past and yes we know each other stance on this.

However, let me share my understanding on this from what I have gathered and some from this very site.

When dealing with whether Christ could have sinned, the short answer is no He's God. I know we don't agree on that so no need for a debate there.

Now, one would ask "how could God (IN THE FLESH) be tempted? That's who Christ was here on earth. God in the flesh. 1 Timothy 3:16.

You referenced Hebrews 4:15. It reads "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

This doesn't say Jesus was tempted to sin as if he had a sin nature inherited from Adam.

The word tested here is "peiraz" which is to test (objectively) that is endeavor, scrutinize entice discipline: - assay examine go about to prove.

Christ was tested while in the flesh and "can be touched with the feeling of our infirmities;

This doesn't mean he is fighting back the urge to sin! It means he's being enticed but yet his testing was to prove him.

You see an example of the word temptation being used this way in James 1:12. The word here is peirasmos. It means putting to proof (by experiment [of good] experience [of evil] solicitation discipline or provocation); by implication adversity: - temptation.

Also;

The mocking Christ on the cross was not a test. He was where he wanted to be and doing what he came to do.

They had no power over him and the nails didn't hold him to that cross, love did.

He could have come down any time he wanted to.

He was in control, not them! John 19:9-11.

See Part 2.

The tempting of Satan.

Hey Jesse,

Yes, brother you understood correctly I believe Jesus if He chose, He could have given into a temptation and been disobedient to His Father. Hebrews 2:18 says He suffered being tempted and in Hebrews 4:15 Jesus was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Jesus did not have a sinful nature like we do, He was not from man but was conceived in the womb of Mary by the Holy Ghost, He was the second man the last Adam.

The first Adam was not formed with a sinful nature, but he sinned and was disobedient, Jesus was sinless and obedient to the end, Romans 5:19. He had to know how it feels to battle temptations to become our priest and mediator. If Jesus was incapable of giving in to temptation His perfect sinless life has no meaning and if He was not capable of being disobedient being obedient to the Father unto death has no meaning.

The miracles Jesus did were not by His power but by the power of the Holy Ghost that God the Father gave to Him without measure John 3:34-35 Acts 10:38 Jesus said many times it was not His will but the Father's will who sent Him, and He also said the words He spoke were not His but the Father, John12:49-50 That is why Jesus's name is called the Word of God, Revelation 19:13.

Now after God raised Jesus from death, He is at His Father's right hand on the throne of God and has been given power of the throne over all until the last enemy, death is under His feet, Ephesians 1:19-23 Revelation 20:14.

I know you may disagree but that is how I understand it.

God bless,

RLW

Hebrews 4:16: Let us therefore come boldly

unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain

mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Psalm 38:22: Make haste to help me,

O Lord my salvation.

Hebrews 4:16: Let us therefore come boldly unto the

throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find

help in time of need.

Thank you for sharing Natasha. I stand in faith for

you in Jesus Name. By His grace. For His glory.

He understands precisely. Be encouraged.

Hi David0921.

Thanks again for replying and sorry for such a long delay in me responding, as I mentioned I have been very busy throughout the week.

I have read through the comments.

David, I don't think I can improve on anything that Brothers Chris, Giannis, Ronald and others have shared.

I do not hold the view that you and GiGi has shared.

Here is what I would share with you in answering your question to me.

You asked.

"If Christ indeed paid the full penalty required by the law of God for every sin of every person, how then would anyone stand guilty before the law, their debt having been paid?

David, as I said in an earlier post, "the invitation went out to ALL the world" I have provided verses.

Here's my reasoning.

Romans 5:18. "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

We can draw a picture out of the writing to the Hebrews concerning Israel.

We are to join him (God) in his rest.

Hebrews 4:2-11.

Here is how we Join him, vs 3- For we which have believed do enter into rest,

There is a lot more said in this verse alone concerning this topic.

1) This rest was pre-ordained from the foundation of the world. "If" they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

2) There is a condition that has to be met. "IF" they shall enter into my rest.

3) You have to believe to enter into the rest.

Verses 10-11. "For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Do you notice verse 11? (Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest,) lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

The only way to enter in is to believe and the only way "not to enter in" is unbelief.

Running out of space, See part 2.

Amen Brother Chris!

"God has provided, salvation is given; and this is just the sinner's response to a Work that has already been done by God alone"

We are to join him (God) in his rest.

Hebrews 4:2-11.

God bless.

Momsage

I didn't mean to offend or confuse, I read the rapture as 144,000 total and 12,000 from each church that's a very small number when there are billions of people on earth alive and almost everyone thinks they are going in the rapture. I was not thinking of the rapture that you think of when I said I pray you don't know death in this life. I believe I read that Christians are persecuted during the tribulation time which means not all are raptured. which is a different discussion. but if you could show me the verses that prove the rapture you believe I would greatly appreciate it.(maybe the Holy Sprit guided me to answer you to get me here so you could show me what you see and I don't.)

I am only reading the KJV 1611, and if its hard to understand I go to the KJV standard.

So about u-tube I am not asking strangers for advice there, I travel for my work so I have found a church that broadcast there sermons, This is a Christian minster whom went to a seminary and also has lectured at them, and is the main preacher at this church. You do not have local tv that broadcasts church services? The way he is doing it reaches far more people and I am sure the Holy Sprit inspired the man to do what he is doing.

I didn't say Jesus replace the Moral or Civil Laws or the 10 commandments (Moral Laws) just the Ceremonial

So to your question.

If you go by just the 10 commandants which I think you are implying. on 6/9 one in some peoples mind and none in my mind and if I read Paul correctly none. Romans 14:5-8

I believe every day is GODs Holy day and Thank Jesus everyday since I repented and ask his forgiveness. GOD says keep his Sabbath Day. Enter my rest (his Sabbath Day) Hebrews 4:10 but if you like start from 4:1.

Sean Paul

The King James Version uses Lord because it fortunately is the true translation approved by the Holy Spirit. You did not make mention what verse you have compared, anyway Lord may be JESUS or others biblical personage, as you may know JESUS is the LORD of the lords; who are the others besides JESUS?

The KJV is correct and true, Biblehub is not, and its translation in this specific case is one among others that will be burned with everlasting fire, because Yahweh is the esoteric, and kabbalistic and spiritist name used by the esoteric, and kabbalistic and spiritist Judaism as it was GOD's name, but it is not, it is the name of the father of the Jews- John 8:44KJV-that is their God- 2Thessalonians 2:3-4KJV.

JESUS said: John 8:41-43KJV

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to JESUS, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even GOD.

42 Jesus said unto them, If GOD were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from GOD(take a look in Hebrews 1:1-4); neither came I of myself, but He sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my Word.

Hebrews 4:12-13KJV

12 For the Word of GOD is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do. or we must render an account

Dear Diana, I stand with you. In Jesus mighty name.

Hebrews 4:16, Exodus 14:14, Exodus 33:14.

Just Scripture,

Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

1 John 2:22-23 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Acts 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Luke 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

God bless,

RLW

Bennymkje

To end the discussion, I'm glad you have repeated what I said and listed in my post. i.e. ''GOD did choose 24 men unto which He would reveal His Word-even He Himself-to write the books of the Old Testament, and 'They already are enthroned around GOD's Throne clothed in white raiment and they have on their heads CROWNS of gold. They're already crowned''. Yes, I work with the Word of GOD- Hebrews 4:12-13.

In the other hand, you said me I'm wrong and I do suppositions because I stated who are the 24 elders that are crowned, and you asked: ''is it for writing merely Old Testament?'' Now, now, the OT is NOT mere writings as you say, no, absolutely no, it is the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, GOD Himself, GOD is Spirit, self-executing, understand? The Word of GOD is from everlasting to everlasting, not a MERELY writings as you have posted. Fear GOD.

No, 'I don't also make it sounds mechanical' as you said in your reply, your peculiar verbiage in the second, and third and fourth paragraph only sounds like metal, like mere tinkling bells, nothing more than a comment without form and void. Fear GOD- Matthew 10:28.

Bennymkje

As I affirmed in prior post, I work with the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, GOD Himself, self-executing, the Word is from everlasting to everlasting, understand?

And you said to me in your reply, it is 'Well and Good' to work with the Word of GOD as I do. This is the reason by which in the list of the 24 elders that I have posted, Enoch is not one of them. So, I told you Enoch is NOT one of the twenty four elders.

The wisdom of GOD is in mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which He ordained before the world unto the glory of the true believers, as is written in 1Corinthians 2:9-10

Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which GOD hath prepared for them that love Him. But GOD hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of GOD.

In the other hand, you said you 'work with what you can', and regarding what you have sowed here saying Enoch is one of the 24 elders,it's not true. You are working with devilish LITERATURES of the Jews, you are working with esoteric, kabbalistic and spiritist trash about Enoch spread mainly through Internet by devilish messengers of the father of the Jews- John 8:44.HOW CAN YOU BELEIVE IN THEM?INCOMPREHENSIBLE.

No surprise THE EXISTENCE of devilish lieteratures of Enoch,the esoteric and kabbalistic and spiritist Jews also invented 10 fictitious names for my GOD Father,and printed them in the Old Testament(Tanack) as:YHWH,Yahweh,Jehovah,HaShem,Adonai, Yehovah,Elohim,Yahusha,YEHshia,YEHvah(fictitious NAMES of GOD or NICKNAMES)that will be burned with everlasting fire from now on.

What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD,the Word is GOD,GOD Himself,self-executing. Hebrews 4:12-13. Take a look.

Be careful or else get ready,GOD is a consuming/devouring fire.

Every man's work shall be made manifest:for the Day shall declare it,because it shall be revealed by fire;and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

The most important thing, Jesus, the Son of God.

Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, Matthew 1:20 of the seed of a woman/Mary, Genesis 3:15, and born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God, John 1:13. Jesus grew up the same way that we do, Luke 2:40.

He was subject to the pulls of the flesh. He was tempted and influenced by Satan, Luke 4:1-2. He had a will and human desires, Luke 22:41-42. Although Jesus was filled without measure with the power of the Holy Ghost, and gave all things into his hand, John 3:34-35 Jesus humbled Himself and was obedient unto death, Philippians 2:5-11.

To be the payment for sins of man and to be the Savior of mankind and destroy the works of the devil, Jesus had to be a human, Hebrews 2:14-18, the promise God made was to Abraham and his seed, that was Jesus the Messiah/Christ, Galatians 3:16.

Jesus the last Adam came into this world sinless as the first Adam and had to be laden with what we are as humans. The man Jesus, Romans 5:15, had to endure and overcome sin and rise above the influences of Satan to become the payment for the sins and this atonement made way for our deliverance from Satan's bondage, Romans 3:21-26.

He also was prepared to be a merciful and faithful High Priest, Hebrews 4:14-16. God sent His own Son to condemn sin in the flesh that the law could not do that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled, Romans 8:3-4.

Jesus the Son of God a human being had to deal with life as we do. He lived in the same time, space, and constraints as we do. He was born under the law, He became tired, He became hungry, He was subject to persecution, subject to pain, subject to the Roman rulers, He had to deal with all the things the same way we do, and all was the for the will of the Father, not His, Matthew 26:42.

Only in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth do we have hope, and are saved, Acts 4:12.

We are to hold fast in our faith to the end.

God bless,

RLW

Bryanna.

Barring fruit.

Part 2.

Staying intimately connected to the True Vine is the only way to "bear fruit in old age" ( Psalm 92:14), to "run and not grow weary" ( Isaiah 40:31), and to not "grow weary in well-doing" ( Galatians 6:9).

One counterfeit to bearing good fruit is pretense. We can become experts at the routines, the lingo, and "acting Christian," while experiencing no real power and bearing no eternal fruit. Our hearts remain self-centered, angry, and joyless even while we go through the motions of serving God. We can easily slip into the sin of the Pharisees of Jesus' day in judging ourselves by how we think we appear to others and neglecting that secret place of the heart where all good fruit germinates. When we love, desire, pursue, and fear the same things that the rest of the world does, we are not abiding in Christ, even though our lives may be filled with church-related activity.

And, often, we don't realize that we are living fruitless lives ( 1 John 2:15-17).

Our works will be tested by fire. Using a different metaphor than fruit,

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 says, "If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved-even though only as one escaping through the flames."

God is the judge of even our thoughts and motivations. All will be brought to the light when we stand before Him ( Hebrews 4:12-13).

God knows what He has entrusted to each of us and what He expects us to do with it ( Luke 12:48). Our responsibility before God is to be "faithful with little" so that He can trust us with much ( Matthew 25:21).

God bless.

Ecalarese

Now, even now, from now on, what will happen it's only and only the Judgment of GOD. It's a matter evil ones to render an account according to the righteous Judgment of GOD, the Judgment Seat of Christ.

In my vision, I see our Lord JESUS revealing through His angel- Revelation 6:14-17- the LITERAL fulfillment of Scripture you have quoted and interpreted it from Isaiah 2:21.

Revelation 6:14-17

14 And the heaven (heaven? Ephesians 1:3-8 and 2Peter 3:7) departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were MOVED out of their places. (Every religious, and politic, and economic, and social, and military structures will be moved/dissolved/destroyed, including the Dispensations of the OT and NT(heavens)will be dissolved). IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the Great Day(Lord's Day-seventh and last Day) of His wrath is come( Revelation 11:18); and who shall be able to stand?

The Word of GOD reveals unto us: Hebrews 4:12-13:

12 The Word of GOD is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do (we must render an account)

The Word is GOD, self-executing.

GiGi,

Part 5 and last Trinity discussion,

Do you believe that Jesus lived a sinless life?

Scripture is clear Jesus had no sin, Hebrews 4:15 1 Peter 2:22 1 John 3:5 Romans 5:12-15.

Do you believe that the Father and the Son are one as Jesus said in Jn. 17 or that He and the Father are "in" one another and if they see Jesus, they see the Father?

Both, Jesus said I and my Father are one John 10:30 and in other places, one means unity. Jesus was one with the Father not because Jesus was God but because He was filled with the Spirit and God dwelt in him, John 14:10, as we see God was in Christ 2 Corinthians 5:19

God dwelt in Jesus and empowered Him by His Spirit that gave Jesus the power and authority like Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered to Jesus of His Father, Jesus did not have it, all was given to Him. God was manifest in Jesus, John 12:49 John 14:10. This is why Jesus said if you have seen me, you have seen the Father, John 14:9.

Jesus in His prayer asked the Father that we may be one, as He and His Father are one through the words of the disciples, John 17:20-23. God and Jesus will dwell in us and we in them, 1 John 4:13-16 1 John 3:23-24.

How is it that Jesus AND the Father send the Holy Spirit if there is only one person as God?

Jesus said He would pray to the Father to give another comforter, John 14:16, we see in John 14:26 the Father will send in Jesus's name. In John 15:26 Jesus said I will send but this is from the Father and the Spirit of truth that proceedeth from the Father. This is not a person it is the Spirit of God.

Please don't take this wrong, in the Trinity there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons: The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, each Person is fully God, coequal, coeternal, and consubstantial. I'm sorry my understanding, is Scripture does not support that, Scripture is clear the Father is above all.

Thank you, GiGi, I hope this is what you wanted I am not the best at this.

God bless,

RLW

GiGi,

Part 3 Trinity discussion,

Do you believe the Son is a created being?

What is the meaning of created? Does it mean something that is made out of nothing? I would have to say no, Jesus is the Son of God who was conceived in the womb of Mary, Matthew 1:20 Luke 1:35, I do not think I would say He was created.

If so, when did He come into existence?

In God's plan before anything and physically when He was conceived in Mary's womb.

Do you believe that the Son is only human in nature?

Jesus is the Son of God fully human but without sin same as the first Adam, Scripture is clear when Jesus was baptized, He was anointed with the Holy Ghost/Spirit without measure, John 3:34. All the works of Jesus were done by the Spirit of God, Matthew 4:16 Matthew 12:28 Acts 10:38.

Do you believe that Jesus became "the Christ" during His lifetime (Adoptionism)?

I had never heard of Adoptionism until now, I had to look it up, it's false. Christ and Messiah are the same; Jesus was anointed by the Spirit of God after He was baptized by John, He then was made the Messiah/Christ fulfilling the prophecy in Daniel 9:25. Jesus is the Son of God conceived in the womb of Mary by the Holy Ghost/Spirit.

Do you believe Jesus ever aquired a divine nature in His earthly life?

If you mean a divine nature is to have all the attributes that make God who He is I would have to say no. If so, Jesus could not sin or be tempted, Matthew 4:1 Hebrews 4:15. If so, Jesus living a perfect life without sin is meaningless. Jesus could not have died; Jesus was given the power of the Holy Spirit when He was anointed the Messiah. After He rose from the dead God gave Jesus all power in heaven and on earth, Matthew 28:18. God raised and placed Jesus on His right side, Ephesians 1:21-23. Jesus did not return to where He was before, God the Father placed everything under Jesus God's only begotten Son's feet and Jesus will reign until the last enemy is destroyed, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.

See part 4.

Chris,

Part two,

Hebrews 2:7 Jesus was fully human and was tempted just as we are Hebrews 4:15 God cannot be tempted, James 1:13. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Philippians 2:9 again my understanding is all was in and through Jesus in the plan and forethought in the mind of God, logos.

1 Peter 1:19-20 Yes in God's plan my understanding the Greek is not by whom but through whom the Greek word dia, same as in John 1:3 it is through Him not by Him. In Jesus and through Jesus being the first in God's plan came everything like you said "God's Plan & Purpose for redemption" the new creation that was in God's plan.

Jesus was the beginning in God's plan and was begotten in Mary's womb. Like today where you and I are to God it is the same as if we were there with Him on the new earth and His plan has been completed. He is the beginning and the end, and it started with Jesus His Son before any creation and in and through Jesus came all and in the fulness of time He was brought forth into the world.

As in John 1 God's word was manifested in the flesh of His Son Jesus. When Jesus was anointed and became the Messiah/Christ by the Holy Spirit, God was in Jesus and the words Jesus spoke were God's words. The light that shined through Jesus was God, the works were done by the Spirit of God in Jesus, all was done for the glory of God.

I know you may not agree but that is my understanding and if you have any other questions, I will reply to the best of my ability, I own you that. Can I answer all, no I cannot, there are many verses that I am still in search of the truth of.

Love you brother and God bless.

RLW

Hey S Spencer,

I will send this to you as I feel we consider each other as brothers. I thought I was clear when I ended my conversation about the Trinity, but it does not sound like that is not understood with the comments I have read.

I will ask this question not to stump anyone, but it is one I have not ever answered.

First, I would like to say Jesus was before any creation, He is the beginning of creation, and all was created after Him and through Him, but it was in God's plan of creation that Jesus being appointed heir to, Heb 1:1-4. Jesus was the beginning of creation Rev. 3:14 and in the fullness of time He was conceived, Ephesians 1:9-10. There were two Adams and Jesus is the last Adam both Adams who were men who came into this world without sin. The first sinned and the last lived perfect totally obedient to the Father.

Question, Jesus was conceived and brought forth the only begotten Son of God to die for the sins of mankind. If Jesus was preexisting, an immortal being, God the son. How can an immortal being die? How can God be tempted, James 1:13, but it is clear Jesus was tempted as we are, Hebrews 4:15 and He died shedding His blood to cover our sins.

Can God die? If not, how are our sins covered? Could the works of the devil be undone if God fulfilled the law that was made for man? The law was made for man and a man had to live without sin to fulfill it. What is the meaning of Acts 2:24 if Jesus was not a man?

Sorry to send this to you but anyone can answer, Love you brother.

God bless,

RLW

GiGi

Greetings in Christ JESUS

You have just said in prior post that you have never met one believer that has not sinned in some way as a believer. Here's the great problem of those which justifies themselves as keepers of the Sabbath day according to the letter of the Law, for as said James in his universal epistle- James 2:10- , "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all". What more does the Word of GOD say? Romans 2:12 ->... as many as have sinned in the Law shall be Judged by the Law, therefore, he who sins in the Law becomes guilty of all, then by the Law he will be condemned for sure. Galatians 3:11 - ...no man is justified by the Law in the sight of GOD it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 5:4 - Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the Law; ye are fallen from grace.(are wretchad)

Galatians 3:8-10

8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that GOD would justify the Gentiles through faith(not by the Law), preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the Law to do them.

Romans 7:6 - But now we are delivered from the Law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Hebrews 4:

12 For the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom WE MUST RENDER AN ACCOUNT.

Worship in spirit and in truth.

Part 1.

Hi everyone, I would like to comment on the Sabbath rest mentioned in Exodus 20:10 and entering in that rest mentioned in Hebrews 4:10-11.

Israel as a Nation and under the Law did not enter in that rest and I will attempt to explain why.

There still remains a rest for the people of Israel. This speaks volumes on several topics; However, I would like to focus on one.

Now this is not the Church, we have joined him in his rest as mentioned here in Hebrews 4:3

Israel as a Nation stumbled as that Rock of offence by nonbelief. Yet for the most part they kept the Sabbath rest. Which was ritual pointing to one that could give them rest.

THE LAW WAS THE VIHICLE WHICH BROUGHT US TO THE ONE THAT CAN GIVE US REST!

Galatians 4:1-5. Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

We join him in his rest by way of sonship.

So, what about the written articles of God? I will speak on that in a moment.

See Part 2. The early Church.

The Perfection of Christ

Christ being a member of the Godhead never sinned. We see that He was tempted in all ways as we are as Hebrews 4:15 states.

In His own strength Christ certainly always had the right to do anything as well as the capability; but as we know God cannot lie ( Heb. 6:18 and other related scriptures). Thus; Satan truly was the only being that had the authority to give the right of rulership over the earth as a temptation; and Christ was the only recipient other than Antichrist who will receive this offer. The man of sin will accept it; and the world will accept THE LIE ( 2 Thess. 2:11-12). It was for our sake that Christ humbled Himself; even to death on a cross emptying Himself of all self promotion of His own glory for the sake of the Father's exaltation later. This encompasses a number of scriptures (see Philippians 2:7; Isaiah 53).

Thus; we see that the relationship among the Godhead brings humility followed by exaltation. We also should follow that guideline; knowing that no servant is greater than His master; we are also to suffer while in this brief earthly existence. ( John 13:16). How much of our own troubles are caused by our own sins varies; it is something we should overcome if we are truly to embrace His sufferings.

When we consider sinless perfection on a surface level we think of avoiding commission of acctions against God as well as avoiding omission of things we ought to do which is often neglected at the expense of the first issue. We can think of someone who never makes mistakes; never says a word that is unfitting; and other like characteristics. When examining in depth this subject we see how eternal spiritual laws and principles were always first and foremost; undergirding Christ's miracles. Salvation was shown to be more crucial than just healing (see Matthew 9:6); as the paralytic received healing along with forgiveness. Salvation is complete at the Resurrection of the just; inheriting new bodies

Hey Momsage,

Sorry for the delay, thank you for your reply. My understanding in Genesis when God breathed the breath of life into the first Adam he became a living soul. The Hebrew word is nephesh, that means a living being, Adam was not given a soul he became a living soul/being. Same as the last Adam Jesus the Messiah was conceived in the womb of Mary, Luke 1:31-33, and He was a living being/nephesh.

As the first Adam, Jesus came into this world without sin, but not like the first Adam He lived a perfect life without sin totally obedient to the Father even though He was tempted as you and me, Hebrews 4:14-15.

God bless,

RLW

Moses was a law giver, Jesus was a law giver as well. The old laws of Moses nobody coukd keep the sabbath day. Just like today, the moment you get out of bed you broke the Sabbath day. It is not a pick and choose gospel, you keep the Sabbath day you are responsible for the whole book of Leviticus. Jesus became our rest as we rest in his words as the Sabbath day was a day of rest. When you are resting you are not sinning. We sin no more in Christ as he is our rest as God tge Father of Jesus is resting in the words of his Son Jesus. Those days are long gone as Jesus is now Lord of the Sabbath as he is the head of the Sabbath day for rest sake.

Hebrews 4:[8] For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

[9] There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

[10] For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

[11] Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Rev 14:13] And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

James 2:10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

We are to be holy in Christ Jesus as he is our rest our Sabbath everyday. The Sabbath day keepers are hypocrites as they break the Sabbath everytime they get out of bed and do work. The moment they got out of bed, they broke the Sabbath day. The Sabbath day was a day of rest, when you are resting you are not sinning. Jesus became that rest for us ss the Sabbath day was just a shadow of things to come. None of the Jews could keep the Sabbath, they kept breaking it. Christ is the end of the law of Moses the law of righteousness the Sabbath Day.

Isaiah 56:[2] Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

Isa.11[10] And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Matthew 11:28] Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

[29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

[30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Hebrews 4:8] For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

[9] There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

[10] For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Hebrews 10:1] For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Col 2:16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

[17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.