Discuss Isaiah 45 Page 4

Chris,

These are my comments structured around Isaiah 45:7.

God creates the evil and is the letter that lets Satan prove us ( 2 Thessalonians 2:7).

Satan and his angels would be defunct without God propping them up, needing them as an opponent to fulfill prophesy.

God creates the evil until the 3 spirits are placed in the lake of fire, &

God comes down for the first time to dwell face to face with the born again.

God bless and pray for the homeless.

Michael. If you're thinking of Isaiah 45:7, please don't assume that there is any evil within the Godhead to produce evil. We need to understand that verse properly. Just as the LORD "formed the light", so too can He "create darkness". That is, when God chooses to remove the light, darkness remains - darkness is the default. God had to introduce light to dispel darkness ( Genesis 1:1-5); Jesus had to become Light unto men to reveal & dispel their inner darkness ( John 12:46).

Likewise, God said, "I make peace and create evil". Evil came from the father of evil & sin, who is the devil. And the devil has controlled the world with his wickedness ( Ephesians 2:1-3). But in that overwhelming wickedness, the merciful God has still brought peace to the hearts & lives of many: to His people, Israel, if they obeyed: Psalm 119:165; Proverbs 16:7 and to all others who come to Him through the Cross of His Son ( John 14:27; Ephesians 2:13-18).

But what happens when God chooses to remove His Peace? And what happens when God chooses to remove His Light? If Peace goes, evil will immediately take over - if Light is removed, darkness instantly prevails. So, God is not the author of evil, but that evil is the result when His Peace is removed; hence, as it is written, "I create evil", or, 'I have allowed evil to take hold (or, make evil happen), because I have removed My Peace'.

Maybe if Satan was bound soon after him troubling mankind with evil, there would be no need for such verses that would require God to act against evil, but in the Wisdom of God & to make His Power, Love & Salvation known to all, we who have been drawn to & choose His Light & Peace, can always know His Power constantly working in us. But if that Light & Peace fades away in us, we know it's because we have given Satan a foothold in us, bringing us into darkness & sin.

Ginny, may CHRIST IN US grace us with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.

It's better to to know what GOD SAYS than to say things that OPPOSE God's word.

You says Satan created evil, this OPPOSES:

Isaiah 45:7 I (GOD) form the light, and CREATE darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the LORD DO ALL THESE THINGS.

You say God gives us the choice to choose good are evil, this OPPOSES:

Philippians 2:13 For it is God that WORKETH IN YOU both to will and do of HIS GOOD PLEASURE.

You say Satan was the highest angel in heaven and rebelled, this OPPOSES:

Job 26:13 By his Spirit he garnished the heavens, his hand hath formed the CROOKED SERPENT.

John 8:44 ...He (Satan) was a murder from THE BEGINNING (not perfect and fell), and abode not in the TRUTH ....

Misheal,

You missed the meaning of God's message to man; He's saying "know your place". That is my message to those putting weight on a false doctrine. There is no such thing as a "rapture", only a structured, 2 part resurrection.

Isaiah 45:9

9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Lenny, the way that I can understand this verse (in Isaiah 45:7), is to see the contrasts given therein. The Lord God says that He forms (creates) light. If that light is removed, the result is darkness. So in a sense, He has also created darkness (or, at least chosen not to remove that darkness by some other means, other than using light).

Likewise, God makes (or, gives) peace. If He chooses to remove that peace, that absence of peace is unrest, war, turmoil (evil). So I don't believe the verse indicates that God specifically chooses to create evil (sin?), but when He removes peace & serenity from a person or from the world, the result is not good at all. Maybe we could ask, 'Why would God want to remove the peace He gives?' It could be for accomplishing of His purposes in man or in the world & to show man how deep his wickedness can go when God is not in his view & His Peace is not in Him. And we remember, that these words were spoken to Cyrus (verse 1), a Persian ruler, whom God used to accomplish His purposes on behalf of Israel. So these words came to remind Cyrus who this God of Israel was with Whom he was dealing with.

Without delving too deep in theology, Divine Election is essentially God choosing who are to belong to Him.

We have the Old Testament references to God's choosing Israel: Isaiah 42:1; Isaiah 45:4; Isaiah 65:9; Matthew 24:22 (Matthew is still OT in this respect). Israel wasn't a nation at the time of God's choosing nor did its forefathers deserve anything for God choosing them, but that He wanted a "special people, to set His Love upon them, & to keep His Oath made to their forefathers" ( Deuteronomy 7:6-8).

In the New Testament (post Cross), the Apostle Paul speaks of God's Elect as being from both Israel & the Gentiles: under "the election of Grace" (Romans chapter 11) and Colossians 3:12; 1 Peter 1:2.

So we understand from Scripture, that God chooses whomever He desires to be His very Own. Yet, after the advent of Jesus Christ & His Sacrifice for all (Jew & Gentile), God's choosing is based on the Cross & yet the remnant of disbelieving Israel will still figure at the end times.

Then maybe your question is in respect of how that Divine Election affects sinful mankind now: are some forever lost without hope, or are some dragged kicking & screaming into the Kingdom, none having any choice because of Divine Election? To answer this, God's choosing of those to be saved is entirely because of His Determination & His Plans. Since we know that God is an Omniscient God (He knows all things from eternity to eternity), His Plans must include those who come into the world, the life path they take, their hearing of the Gospel & their response to it.

Acts 13:48: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." "Ordained to eternal life". This is election, showing that God, Who had appointed some to eternal life, followed through with believing on His Son. In other words, whom God chooses will be saved - those who refuse His Son are not part of the elect or chosen of God.

Thanks Earl,

Isaiah 10 is a great, and humbling example.

S Spencer, the Spirit is blessing you with His great insight. Isaiah 10 is an example also of God using man as the labour of HIS WORK.

THY WILL BE DONE, come quickly O Lord.

Our's IN CHRIST your servants, Amen

Hi Dr Marvin.

That's a humbling, valuable truth to consider isn't it.

God used Moses, He used Abraham, and Many others in scripture and Many he is using today,

But he also used People like Cyrus! ""Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;""

He used King Nebuchadnezzar.

To seize Israel.

And the Chaldeans.

Habakkuk 1:6. For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not their's.

Since God's eyes are in every place; it's a blessing to understand that God is still a mystery, therefore He can do what his Holy Word is! Remember God created all things, therefore He can utilize anyone or any thing, to get His Will done! Be blessed!

Hello Adam, where is Eve? Jokey joke.

Insult on whom? I'm showing the fact that God knows all things and that He created evil and death for a purpose of a temporary earth. I know it's hard to believe, it was for me too, but it's plain to see in the word of God.

If you can accept ISAIAH 45:7 about evil, then understanding will come easily. Remember the slaughtered lamb before the foundation of the world? There's no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood. The lamb's blood was shed only for sin before sin was. Don't you see the plan God is showing us?

Why God did not allow Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of life after they sinned instead He put them out of the garden? The plan of salvation is not by eating or works but by the shedding of a sin free blood, God's own blood. God bless you

To Ingrid Li,

Notice God did not mentioned to Adam the tree of life until after Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And no, it was not the tree of wisdom. Wisdom is achieved through knowing good and evil, and understanding is to know the difference.

You can more understanding this if you realize that Adam and Eve were both void of understanding which can only be achieved by knowing that the opposite of good is evil. Did you know that there are good and evil spirits? And that God created them both? You can find this in ISAIAH 45:7. God is the creator of both things seen and unseen. He, God created evil. He did so for a purpose, to give us knowledge and understanding so we can be wise to know God. I can go on forever on this, but I don't want to bore you or anyone else, so I'll stop here. God bless you

Hi Richard, it's me again.

Actually God said "you S H A L L surely die" referring to the entire creation that's why we see animals, trees and everything lives then die. You see, the whole concept of death is God's plan from the start. It's not because of Adam and Eve's sin that death came to the creation; Adam and Eve activated the death process by obedience to the spirit of evil which the serpent was possessed with. God created EVIL ( Isaiah 45:7) and did so for a purpose. God is the creator of all things seen and unseen. God also said in ( Isaiah 55:11) the words of His mouth will not go forth void, so when the words EVIL and DEATH left God's mouth they now become apart of His creation. When and where did God created EVIL? This happened in the garden of Eden where God said "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." This word evil left His mouth and will do it's purposed which is sin then sin will do it's purpose which is death.

I pray you understand God's purpose of balance. By this I mean, everything has it's equal and it's opposite like left with right, back with front, top with bottom, hot and cold etc.

God saw what He created was good but He never declared it so, therefore all things created was for a temporary purpose of knowledge and the next phase of God's creation will be the permanent and the everlasting perfection. The word evil will never be mentioned again, by then it's purpose would have been complete and will never ever be in existence. PRAISE THE LORD JESUS.

Hello, those are interesting questions. If you got a fishtank and stocked it full of fish, but noticed one fish harassing, assaulting, and killing the other fish through relentless mean attacks... would you show mercy to the 99% of the fish (peaceful) and kill the evil mean fish. Or would you show 'mercy' to the evil mean fish, and show no mercy or justice to the 99% of the fish and let them continue to suffer?

Satan is pure evil and destroys countless lives, dragging everyone down. Why should evil be rewarded? Isn't rewarding evil actually harmful to everyone else who strives to do what is right?

Maybe you like your community, like your family, and maybe have precious daughters you love. Let's say your state governor tried to show 'mercy' to a prisoner and let him out and he moved in next door. He was convicted of horrific crimes against young girls and now lives next door. And he's watching as your kids play out in the yard while you're at work. Are you 100% ok with that? What if he then assaults your daughters, are you still ok with that? Because mercy, right?

The point is people often see one side of 'mercy' and don't always acknowlege that rewarding one person's evil can steal from others and harm them- and that's not truly merciful if you're harming others.

So, why doesn't God just create a bunch of robots that are 100% perfect? He loved us enough to give us the freedom to choose. Which is more meaningful to you? If your spouse and kids be forced to say I love you, or if they say it voluntarily and mean it? The latter of course and that's one reason God gave you the freedom to choose to follow Him or not. He won't force you to spend eternity with Him if you don't want to.

Finally, the 'evil' in Isaiah 45:7 means environmental evil like natural disasters, not a moral evil. God is perfect is cannot sin against Himself. He is loving and merciful and loves you enough to give you freewill. Most choose evil, but some choose good.

God bless...

Why does God have to kill the devil, toss him in the lake of fire? Why can't Jesus baptize the devil, show him a little sympathy?

If Isaiah 45:7 states that God creates the evil, then what is God's punishment?

No.

Ezekiel 27 & 28 describes the King of Tyre as making himself a "god" and was called a "cherub" and referenced "Eden, the garden of God" This Cherub was "perfect" in beauty, faultless in his ways from creation onward until unrighteousness was found in him. Ez 27:3, 28:12,15

Isaiah 42:12 Reference the God of Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jacob, Joseph, David, Josiah, Ezekiel, John the Baptist, Jesus, the Apostles, etc. This Almighty God of Israel is the creator of all living things. In Psalms 83:18 he is called Jehovah God.

If you look in one of the earliest King James Bible of 1611 you'll see that name. Most modern translations have removed that name and substituted it with Lord claiming since the original pronunciation was lost it makes sense to remove it as if the Almighty doesn't exist. Also the divine name Jehovah or Adhonai or Elohim in some translation appears in the Tetragrammaton close to 7000 times so removing the name removes the knowledge and understanding of the Almighty and creates confusion. He just wasn't a tribal God in Isaiah 54:5 it says "....He will be called the God of the whole earth." Psalm 124:8 Jehovah is called the maker of heaven and earth.

Jesus who was a Jew also recognized the God of Israel as being Jehovah or Yahweh. Remember the Jewish clergy during the time of Jesus wanted to bring charges against Jesus in order to put him to death for blashemy so any of worship or acknowledgement he gave to any other god would have given them this opportunity. Plus Genesis 17:1, Isaiah 45:18, Psalm 83:18 refers to Jehovah God being one God. Deuteronomy 6:4,5 also call Jehovah one Jehovah. This is in harmony with Mark 12:29, Romans 3:29-30, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:4-6, 1 Timothy 2:5 all these scriptures refer to one God.

For Jesus to believe in multiple gods or a triune god would be paramount to apostasy for a Jew and thus grounds for death. Also Roman Zeus was a triune god and existed during this time.

I found something sacred and significant..hidden very secretly only for trustworthy people to inherit.

Hi Marilyn, Evil didn't start in Eden, Isaiah 45:7, I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. I think you are meaning "The tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil" Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. What happened to man wants he ate of that tree? Genesis 3:7, And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were "NAKED"; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. naked in the bible often expresses sin exposed, and garments often expresses righteousness. Some would say Adam and Eve was clothed with light before the fall, The question is when did they become naked/sinful? When they bit of the fruit? I believe eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil revealed their nakedness to them, The issue was what they did afterwards, "clothed themselves". Their fall was no surprise to God, he set forth the plan of redemption before the world begun, 1st Peter 1:18-20. Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world. The scripture says by one man sin entered the world, not evil. I believe there is a difference between the two by means of definition. Apart from the Holy Spirit man is flesh and lost in the wilderness, and easy prey for Satan. In the millennium man will have a thousand years in the best conditions to evolve with Satan chained up, and prove himself. but after all those years of practice here is what happens. Revelation 20:7-8, And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth. THKS

Alex you left out a couple of verses. Exodus 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 3:14-15 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Interesting, Chris!

Alex comments about Exodus 3 v 15 God tells Moses that he is the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob and that is my NAME forever and my memorial to All generations .

Isaiah 45:7, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

These verses from verse 1 to 7, is a discourse to Cyrus, the Persian King, revealing Who this God is, Who will use the king as His instrument. So verse 7 comes as a further reminder to Cyrus that this God is unlike anyone else: He creates Light & He has the power to remove it (once Light from a source is removed, darkness prevails - it's the default with light's absence). He can bring about peace (or, happiness, prosperity) & also can remove that (thereby evil will become present & rampant, as a default state, with Satan's affectation upon man & the world). The Lord has the power to do all things, which the Persian gods could never do.

To be able to correctly understand the 'behaviour' of a Holy God Who can do no evil, for evil is never present within Him, the only way that I can read this verse, is to know that the God Who creates, can also remove (i.e. the opposite is 'created') & not that God has any unjustified evil planned that He wants to create. However, it is true, God does bring on 'evil', as in consigning men to hell, but that comes as a justified punishment for man's disobedience & rejection of Him.

Light = good = understanding and knowledge Christians gained from the written word of God

Darkness = evil = trials, tribulations and all sorts of problems encountered by Christians = use by God to test our faith in God

If & when Christians chose not to rely on own understanding, seek God's wisdom, able to go through trials/problems, by faith able to solve problems. During the process - made mistakes but learned new things - what works, what doesn't work gained wisdom, leads to success

Prosperity - successful life on earth while having intimate fellowship with God.

Disaster - however, if and when Christians because of prideful desires, chose not to seek God's guidance, continue to struggle, makes mistakes after mistakes, discouraged, get addicted into something - bring disaster to self - broken relationships.

God created all these things for our common good. God loves us, gave us freedom to see the light, darkness, prosperity and disaster to teach us lessons, to purge and cleanse us from our self-centered free will walking in the flesh versus walking in the spirit.

I remember reading that the first time and thinking the same thing.

The first thing I'd say is not to use NIV, instead use KJV. Modern translations are less accurate.

God created people, and is therefore responsible for His creations. As an example, if someone chooses to do someone else harm for an unholy reason, that person must reap what they've sown. It's up to God to give that person a perfect punishment(assuming they are unrepenting nonbelievers), and in order to do that God must create a situation in which there's a fitting disaster for them. Only then is "balance" restored, and do people get what they deserve.

Loving doesn't mean God won't uphold morality and justice, but it does mean He is merciful.

Disaster exists because of sin. God doesn't enjoy causing disaster, but it is necessary.

Why would a loving God "create darkness" and "disaster"? ( Isaiah 45:7)

7 I form the light and create darkness,

I bring prosperity and create disaster;

I, the Lord, do all these things. (NIV)

Heaven on Earth...

That's a good 'catch', noticing the words, "there is no God" in Isaiah 45:14. In Hebrew, the LORD in the first part of the verse, is 'Yahweh', but in the latter part of the verse, it is "El" & "Elohim", which can used of the true God but allows for use of other gods, angels, kings or judges.

So in context of the verse, these others (gentiles) that come to Israel will come in brokenness & humility, and acknowledging that "God (El) is the God with Israel, & there is no god (Elohim), there is none else". So it is the cry of the gentiles, though not coming to faith in the true God of Israel, did however acknowledge that there is none beside Him. Since they didn't know the true God as Israel knew God, the word 'El, Elohim' is being used to signify this.

I don't recall this verse saying, "...there is no God." I recall it as, "...there is no other God."

If I am incorrect, can anyone provide interpretation or meaning to that specific part of the verse?

The tree of Life was moved to Heaven.

Revelation

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day. evil existed befor adam I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. i couldn't be any clearer