John
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I agree! I believe to present God as an angry God is misrepresenting God.
I would present God as Holy!
Nahum 1:3 reads "The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked (kjv).
However, "the wicked" is in italics. Perhaps it should read "The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit.
That means no one gets off!
Sin has to be paid for and the wages of sin is death!
And all have sinned and come short of the glory of God; Romans 3:23.
Romans 6:23 reads "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
At this junction I would present God as a loving God pointing a lost soul to Romans 5:6-9 and " John 3:16-21" "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Romans 5:18 reads "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Adams sin has been imputed on to us. All human beings are counted as having sinned in Adam!
Jesus is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2.
God is Holy, Just and Love.
God bless.
More on my previous reply.
I don't believe that Man is born perfect and has to wait on his actions to determine his fate.
The world is already separated from God and Man is a part of the world and is Born separated from God.
Man comes into the world in need of a rebirth. (Born from above) One that the first Adam could not provide, (a sinless nature!)
Adam was made an Earthly vessel and could never give life and was never meant to.
The second Adam was is a life giving Spirit and is not a part of this world! HE WAS SENT INTO IT.
"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." John 3:17.
Man in his sinful condition and in his present state can not conceive how bad he is.
I believe the same way that the children of God is identified/baptized IN Christ is the way the unsaved is identified/baptized in Satan and suffers the same fate as Satan.
Satan is their father.
Everlasting punishment is given to an Everlasting unrepentant rebellious heart
Blessings
I would like to share mt beliefs in regards to this topic.
(Not that it has any authority)
1st, THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE OT AND NT MINISTRIES.
When it comes to God's mercy there is no difference. ( There was a mercy seat" as a solid gold covering placed on top of the Ark of the Covenant in the OT which is seen as a foreshadowing or type of Christ. )
The mercy seat is shown as a symbol of means of forgiveness following a law given that is known as the Administration of condemnation and Administration of Death.
2 Corinthians 3:7-9.
As for the penalty of sin and God's wrath which is to come.
The wrath to come was initiated or caused in the Garden of Eden.
There is an curse on ALL creation and an unrepentant sin nature on Man.
This nature loves darkness.
If you gave man a 1000 years in hell he'll still have that sin nature after the 1000 years was filled.
If you gave man peace on earth for a 1000 years without the devil influence and release the Devil when the 1000 years is filled Man will still display that rebellious nature.
You see a glimpse of this type of unrepentant rebellious demonic nature in Revelation, even while being tormented! Revelation 16:8-11.
Man is needing to be redeemed! Initially he doesn't know and want it.
However,
I believe there is the true light or/and restrainer (all the same being) that reveals and restrains evil and to recieve truth provided to all men.
This light is to reveal their depravity and to lead them out of darkness to Christ or openly reject him and be condemned with the world.
REFERENCES.
2 Thessalonians 2:6-7
John 1:8-10.
John 3:17-21
Man has an everlasting Spirit and it's either one that is forever rebellious and continuously influenced by Satan in this life and the after life or he is continuously influenced by the Holyspirit which brought him to Christ and abides in him.
Blessings.
Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness
Seems to agree with the OT verse I gave you. God does not change. But He does work according to His own pleasure, will, and purpose in the OT, NT, and in the time from the ascension through the end of times.
Here are other relevant verses from the NT that speak of the wrath of God being upon the wicked. I think this is present tense from an English perspective, but the Greek may be different.
I think that God is always the same in every way. He is true to His attributes in the OT as well as the NT. And will continue to be true to Himself in this age.
Giannis, I stand by what I have shared with you because I believe that Scriptures teach that God both hates wicked sinners and also desires that many will turn to Him and be saved, but not all will do so because not all have been elected to salvation since before creation.
Ephesians 5:5-6
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Colossians 3:5-6
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.
One has to discriminate the OT from the NT. Many things in the OT are not valid in NT, eg in Psalms King David always asks God to take revenge against his enemies, which is something we should not do in NT, we must love our enemies.
Yes God is angry and dissapointed with the man He created. But when we talk about God's wrath we mean God distructing people not just the feeling of being angry.
So lets have a look in NT.
Jesus said in John 3:17, "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."
When the disciples asked Jesus if He wants them to bring fire from Heaven to burn the Samaritans since they didn't accept them Jesus said, "... But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.". Luke 8:54-55. Not to mention the case with that woman condemned for fornication whom Jesus let her free
We live in the age of grace. We must distinguish the spirit of the OT which was condemnation/punishment from the spirit of the NT wich is grace/mercy. We are "of another manner of spirit" in this age. So God is.
Doesn't it seem strange to you that God asks us to love our enemies while He is angry with them? Or is He not angry? He actually loves His enemies, that is why we become God's true children by also loving our enemies "That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:..." How de we really become God's true children? By being in "His likeness".
The will of God is all people to be saved, If you search the word 'wrath" in NT you will find it always refers to the Judgement Day. Only in the OT and in Rev we can find it in this life. And to me this is another point that grace will not be available after the rapture of the church. People will have to be slaughtered to be saved. The grace will go together with the church and another age will start. I will not use the word dispensation since I am against that idea, but still the grace will be gone at that time
Isaiah 52:14 "As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:"
Belief in the Son was emphasized even by John the Baptist as a second witness as Jesus started His public ministry ( John 3:23-36). Nonetheless He often hid who He was; particularly early in His ministry ( Matt. 16:20 may be a later statement to this affect). As stated in my last post He often told people to tell no man about who did a miracle ( Matt. 8:4) so He didn't want any necessary noteriety. Those who didn't have eyes to see and ears to hear ( Matt. 13:16) simply thought He was a Prophet; or good man at best; or an illegitimate child to Mary ( John 8:41).
Given these facts and the blindness of man without the revelation of God ( 2 Cor. 4:4) we shouldn't be surprised by the world's expectations of a superman or bermensch as Neche called this individual. Men who didn't see the Lord as coming to save rather than destroy men were blind to their own state. They should have realized who Christ was regarding the clear prophecies particularly in Isaiah 53. There was a reason for the delay in what indeed will involve Christ coming to destroy His enemies and establish His Kingdom on earth; and some Jews seem to have the concept of two different figures to make sense of apparently diametrically opposed characteristics of Christ as suffering servant and conquering King.
The fact is that God planned it so the nation of Israel would be blind in part until the fullness of the Gentiles came in ( Romans 11:25). Given the fact that Naaman the Syrian and the widow who Elijah helped to feed and raise her child to life were Gentiles (Jesus enraged the Pharisees mentioning that God exclusively met her need at the expense of many others with similar situations that were Jews at that time ( Luke 4:25) was important.
Further questions
How does God work with man in order to facilitate His Kingdom and bring it to fruition in time? How do we find a balance between God being an impartial judge ( Deut. 10:17) and His personal relationship literally "possessing" us with His Holy Spirit for those who He has called and chosen? This causes Him to show favor among His children.
How do we wrap our heads around God who can't even look at sin and yet so loving the world that He sent His only Son? It is easy to brush off our understanding of John 3:16 with what Christ did for us and its effectivity for all who believe His Name but if the Father had to look away when Christ bore our sin ( Matthew 27:46) how can He even care about us; miserable worms that we are? (Spoiler alert He sees Christ in us when we are sealed with the Spirit)
How can we understand eternal destinies as compared to what we can see and sense today with those around us and the world in general as to its appearance? What can we make of our new bodies ( 1 Cor. 2:14). What about 1 Corinthians 15:35-36. Are we to understand we are foolish to ask such questions of what it will be like in Resurrected form?
35 But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. I'll try to delve more into that later but it has to do with the context for that church as to how Paul was speaking.
Why were many things hidden as to Christ's first 30 years before beginning public ministry?
Why did God prophesy and bring about Judas the Betrayer and the future Antichrist Beast?
The last thing I will post tonight is the thought of why and how the Lord both REVEALS truth and CONCEALS it to those receptive and rejecting Him. 2 Corinthians 4:4 is a good start but it is still mysterious and thought provoking. I will get more into this in later postings as to how it relates to evangelism.
Basic Gospel: They say the Gospel of John is best; certainly it encapsulates well known passages such as John 3:16 and has much to say about Christ's closest Disciple; as well as themes related to Predestination. They say to start with the Gospels and then read Acts and other New Testament writings such as Paul's Epistles when starting off in the faith in particular.
The Law: Probably emphasized more in Reformed Circles; it certainly is a good start to understand God's basic principles such as with the 10 Commandments (check out Deuteronomy and Exodus).
Psalms and Proverbs: These give wisdom and practical examples from David's life along with his failures and God's promises of deliverance. Passages describe ways to be wise about money; and show how God is ever faithful in the lives of His saints.
Prophecy: Probably the last thing common to devotionals although something I started off with heavily.
It is hard to divide scriptures by books; for instance when Psalm 119 talks about the law; Psalm 22 is focused on prophecy; etc. How do we stick with just one subject matter or reading from one chapter of a given book without cross referencing?
I am looking for answers here; I will say that we all should "preach to ourselves" when not actively sharing to remind ourselves of the basic elements of forgiveness and salvation if anything to keep ourselves humble and have grateful hearts for what He has done for us.
Prayer: Basic types
We can look at examples of David as to types of prayers in scripture and of course Christ and the prophets.
Prayer to get us out of dire straits by David; Psalms shows us how we should always praise God and have a heart of thanksgiving when approaching His throne.
How do we handle "impreccatory" prayers today as a Christian related to God judging the wicked? Open for suggestions.
Prayers for others. I usually try to pray what I feel the Lord leads me.
Jesus was telling Nicodemus , the Pharisees that he need to be born again in the Spirit of the kingdom of God on earth with the King Messiah Jesus Christ. Born again was for the Jews to take notice of there new kingdom.
John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
In the four gospels, Jesus told Nicodemus to be born in the word and the Holy Spirit to receive Salvation.
John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
The water is the word .
1 Peter 1:23
Beingbornagain, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
The Twelve Disiples never knew that Jesus Christ was going to die for all our sins and be buried and rise again for our Salvation, they wanted there King Messiah on earth ruling.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Begotten Son is nothing new, it's talking about the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ but it was hid in God.
Psalm 2:7
I will declare the decree: theLordhath said unto me, Thou art mySon; this day have Ibegottenthee.
Apostle Paul never speaks about being born again, it's a Israel thing for the kingdom on earth, the New Jerusalem.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Continuing on personal interpretation of a passage; there are infinite ways something can be twisted and at times there are more than one truth that can be expounded from a passage as well. Isolating scripture is a classic error; taking John 3:16 for example a universalist may say that shows everyone is saved but the next couple passages through verse 18 show that those who don't believe are condemned already. Those "prosperity" Gospel folks are insanely trying to justify that anyone not wealthy isn't blessed by God. Along with the fact that Christ and the Apostles had to live in want most of the time; these folks ignore the fact that Abram moved away from his comforts of home and Moses from the riches of Egypt ( Heb. 11:26 even mentions Christ as the reason he did that). Wealth was not something that was coveted in these cases; and when it was such as with Solomon things didn't go well (and God warned him of the dangers of multiplying gold and silver and horses and such beforehand).
The literal vs figurative subject certainly can affect just about any scripture as to correct or incorrect interpretation. The few scriptures that are clearly figurative still have specific applications and related to real people and situations. Disregarding or interpreting something we don't understand or haven't seen fulfilled yet prophetically is a dangerous precedent; this led many to reject Christ as they couldn't conceive Him coming without taking over immediately as a warrior; king and national savior. We can't go the other extreme and say well; this proves everyting was fulfilled already either which taken to the fullest extent means we think Christ has already returned or won't come back physically which is heretical teaching.
THere is a way which seems right to a man but it is the way that leads to death ( Prov. 14:12). Not everyone that says "Lord Lord" will enter heaven either ( Matt 7:21). Let us love God by obedience.
Hebrews 3:19
So we see that they could not enter in because ofunbelief.
The reason why we have Unbelief right now, it's because the word of God is Spiritual. We must worship God in Spirit.
John 3:12
If I have told you earthly things, and yebelieve not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Jesus Christ wrote the Whole Bible, that means we must believe with all our heart and soul.
John 5:47
But if yebelieve nothis writings, how shall ye believe my words?
The Jews still couldn't believe Jesus in the flesh, how can we believe his words, by Faith alone.
John 6:36
But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, andbelieve not.
If they believe not in the beginning of time and want to betray Jesus, they are doing the same with Apostle Paul's epistles .
John 6:64
But there are some of you thatbelieve not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
We have a choice to believe God's word.
John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if yebelieve notthat I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
My Gospel of Grace by believing only
I have been considering your questions and praying how I can respond to help you. First of all, I will say that you can receive thoughtful responses on this forum. You can also find good answers to these two questions by searching the internet with these questions. The responses there may be as good if not better than what I or others have done so here on this forum. Not all internet sources are equally sound from a biblical perspective just as not all responses to your questions here are such. I would recommend the Got Question site as a start. They give a fairly concise explanation to your questions.
As I was thinking on your questions, I came to these responses:
1) Does Scripture speak of Jesus existing prior to His conception in Mary?
The first Scripture I will cite is John chapter 1. It does tell us that Jesus is the Word of God, who also is God, who was with God from the beginning. Jesus is said by John to have created all that has been created. And that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
John 8:56: Jesus says that He existed before Abraham existed. He used the term "I AM" in this verse which is a specific reference to the name God gave to Moses in Exodus 3, which means "I self-exist" or "I exist because I exist".
In many verses Jesus states that He came from heaven to earth, from the Father, being sent from the Father, that He is from above. The Gospel of John is replete with verses that state this.
John 8:23; John 1:18; John 3:1,17; John 6:38; John 17:21; John 3:34; John 18:36; John 1:15; John 3:12-13, 31-36; John 16: 27-28.
John 12:41refers back to Isaiah 6:5 where Isaiah saw the LORD seated on the throne and all the angels said "Holy, Holy, Holy".
John here says that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus on the throne because he was speaking of Jesus is verses 37-40.
The New Testament states explicitly in many places that Jesus is the Christ (Jewish Messiah). In Micah 5:2 states that the Messiah existed for all eternity past.
Was Jesus in heaven before creation? My understanding is no. Many will say Jesus is part of a Triune God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three distinct persons, all co-equal, and co-eternal so that would put Him in heaven before creation.
God is a Spirit John 4:24, so if Jesus were in heaven His form would be Spirit. Are there verses on their own that would support the Trinity, yes. But we must keep a verse in context and compare it to other Scriptures about the same subject and not start with the answer, or a preconceived idea. We should let the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit give us the answer and meaning.
A few thoughts. In John 1:1 what beginning is John referring to, the beginning of creation or the beginning of Jesus's ministry, when He was anointed with the Holy Ghost becoming the Messiah, Matthew 4:16-17. We see the same introduction in 1 John 1:1 and others. In Revelation 19:13 Jesus's name is called the Word of God is that saying Jesus is God?
God was manifested in Jesus through the Holy Spirit, 1 John 1:1, Luke 4:18, John 14:10. The life eternal that was with God was manifested on earth through Jesus that we may fellowship with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ 1 John 1:2-7.
I will not go on and on but to me, there is one problem the Trinity doctrine creates I cannot find an answer.
God is perfect and cannot change, in the doctrine that would be the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The law was made for man and a man had to fulfill it. A man who could sin had to live a perfect life without sin to pay the penalty. Jesus did and paid the penalties for sin with His death. God cannot die and God cannot sin nor can He be tempted James 1:13, so He could not fulfill the law. Jesus was born without sin as the first Adam but could sin, the first Adam was not obedient and sinned. The last Adam, Jesus, was obedient to the Father and sinned not Romans 5:19. If God sacrificed Himself John 3:16 is not true.
God bless,
RLW
There are many verses in the Bible that show the human nature of Jesus. But also there are many verses that show the divine nature of Jesus. Some of them are many parts of John's gospel (especially the begining) such as John 1:30, John 2:19, John 3:13, John 8:58-59, John 10:30-33, John 14:9-10, John 14:23, John 20:28, Acts 20:28, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, Hebrews 1:8, Matthew 1:22-23, 1 Cor 10:9, Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1, Zechariah 11:12-13, Romans 9:1-5, and many other that I can not recall now. Jesus also accepted people to kneel infront of Him, something that is only permitted for God. Also compare Psalms 102:25-27 where it talks about God to Hebrews 1:10 where it talks about Jesus. Also compare Joel 3:5 to Acts 9:13. Compare Jeremiah 17:9 to Rev 2:23, etc.
So we have two kinds of scripture. One says that Jesus is human, the other says that Jesus is God. So what do we make out of these two? The obvious, that Jesus is the God, one person of the Godhead, who became man.
Lets think it in another way. We know that God loved people so much so that He sacrificed His own son for us. Now lets use another example. Suppose I love my brother and want to help Him. and the only way to help him is to give my own life for him. How does it seem to you that I would sacrifice instead of my own life, my son's life for Him to help Him? Why my son? And not myself? The most sensible thing is that I would sacrifice my own life for him, not somebody's else. That would be very egoistic. Somebody else to suffer for my intention to help somebody that I love? I think you can understand what I trying to say. So what did God do? He sacrificed Himself for us, one person out of the Godhead took on Him our nature, became a man and gave His life for us. So it is God's love that attracts people to Him. It wouldn't be love if He sacrificed somebody else, an innocent person's life, for his intention to save us. I hope I haven't done it so complicated to understand. GBU
Please forgive me, I believe all that I posted, I just do not want anyone to believe what I do unless they study for the truth on their own. I am sorry if I have placed any doubt in you, I just wanted for you to study where you know the truth, not just take what I believe as truth. I enjoyed and agree with all you replied to me. The division on this subject is harsh, I believe God the Father is the one and only God.
Jesus is God's only Son, as John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Jesus our Lord whom God has placed above all that is in heaven and earth. Everything is reliant on God the Father and His glory including Jesus. Jesus did the will of the Father, not His. Jesus was first in God's plan before anything was created. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary.
Jesus had no earthly father therefore He was born without sin same as the first Adam. Is He self-sustaining, all are reliant on God, without God nothing exists including Jesus. My understanding is God the Father is the only eternal being and only in Him is immortality.
Keep studying the Bible and please forgive me if I caused any doubt the truth is in the Bible with prayer and guidance of the Holy Spirit.
God bless,
RLW
But when I read other verses to show that Jesus wasn't created from an earthly platform, but came down from Heaven (e.g. John 3:13), then my long-held belief must be thrown into question & I then submit to the whole of Scripture, or else, avoid/reinterpret those verses that could cause me problems. And that is why your quote of John 21:20-24 would be so important to not depend on what we would like to believe (as it makes sense to mind and logic), but what the Lord (& His Word) are actually wanting me to know & believe. And that can only come when we have all the evidence before us, as given & without human coloring. Blessings.
What is true love today ? Is love giving the wife a new car , house, jewelry or a great dinner.
Most men don't think of love when the wife is sick or ill , they become blind to true love.
True love is God. We must love first in order to love one another.
1 Corinthians 16:22
If any manlovenot the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.
If we that are saved by believing the gospel is to be married to Christ Jesus as for example, then we should show true love for Christ.
2 Corinthians 11:2
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to onehusband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
If the man love the church, the body of Christ Jesus, then he should love the Wife the same way.
Ephesians 5:24-27
24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
This is God's true love for all of us.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
May God give us the strength to love one another in truth, truth is believing and sharing the gospel .
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 the love of this gospel
The Bible's definition of sin is found in 1 John 3:4, which states, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law".
The Hebrew word for sin is khata, which means "to fail" or "to miss the goal".
The Bible says that all people have sinned, and that sin leads to death.
Romans 5:6-10 reads "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
This shows that God loves sinners and died for them while they were still sinners.
Christ was lifted up on the cross "That WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD, THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life.
This is a display of God's Love in his redemptive plans of salvation to a lost world.
(For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.)
SO YES! This display of Love and INVITATION is to all sinners!!
HOWEVER, God doesn't pardon the sinner BY his Love!
HE PROVIDED A SAVIOR BY HIS LOVE!
Christ was lifted up, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish!
Blessings
Pt. 9
Note: the Got Questions excerpt begins with this:
This statement, "all have sinned," is found in Romans 3:23 ("For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God") and in the last clause of Romans 5:12 ("because all sinned"). Basically, it means that we're all lawbreakers, because sin is the violation of God's law (1 John 3:4). Sinfulness is the general characteristic of all mankind; we are all guilty before God. We are sinners by nature and by our own acts of transgression.
and ends with this
"The Lord looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God" ( Psalm 14:2). And what does the all-seeing God find? "All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one" (verse 3). In other words, all have sinned."
To continue with my thoughts:
Some of Arminian persuasion do agree that fallen man needs God's grace to turn to Jesus, but tend to avow that God gives just enough grace for one to be free to make a choice for or against Jesus and His salvation. But my studies, especially in Romans, Ephesians, and Galatians, convinced me that God gives grace in full measure to His elect, not to only be freed to make a choice for or against the gospel, rather He grants His grace that ensures that the elect will repent and believe unto salvation. I will discuss this more in the next section. But for now, I think that when I came understand and accept the truth about man's depravity and inability to come to God before regeneration I can become so gladdened and thankful for what God has done in my life as one of His elect. These truths to me have become glorious as I came to the conviction that God's will is so much better than my own and His saving nature is supreme over my sinful nature. Therefore, I came to trust God more and more and surrender more and more of my reliance, reasoning, logic, and trust in what I thought was man's strengths to God.
See Pt. 10
Me being a member at West Angeles Cogic Church Cathedral Los Angeles California
Praise God for the beauty and majesty revealed in his creation "Jesus Christ is God + believe on him sons of God
John 1 :12 KJV"
Psalms 19:1 KJV
My Interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
" Heavens Showing God perfection - Malachi 3:10 KJV giving you what you want. Romans 1:20 KJV Confirming me as man according with Jesus Christ God the Father is Victory in Jesus Psalm 18:49 KJV."Jesus Christ is God + believe on him sons of God
John 1 :12 KJV"
Heavens-Everything is the LORD's thereof. Psalms 24:1 KJV. Firmament handiwork giving me what I want and to do (strengthen hands to work) establishments to all the world. Jeremiah 10:12 KJV
Note: Heavens being Firmament- armies defend it agaisnt prince and principalities of the air-evil one. Not to be tried-Triune God.
Psalms 19:4 KJV For the words of my mouth are pleasing in God sight. 1 John 3:22 KJV
Word Spoken and Written by REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY
Me being a member at West Angeles Cogic Church Cathedral Los Angeles California
Matthew 18:19 KJV
My Interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
" When done and praying is showing God as holy to believe. Principle-Holy to all religions. Always performaning righteousness, holiness in actions "to do it" of God, to have faith, hope, love is unity"
Confirmation to all the world. Confirmation is of the Gospel performing of miracle. Trusting in Jesus intercession asking in prayer. A guaranteed result I have received being Christian is utterance of the spirtual man.Accord with Jesus Christ God the Father Romans 6:23 KJV." Quoted on prayers being done must be of God expedient, earnest, faithful, preserving."
Expedient definition- serves to promote or advance any means which may be employed to accomplish an end.
Matthew 18:20 KJV
My Interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
" Associated scripture Hebrews 10:25 KJV. Jesus in the midst is Psalm 19:4 KJV to be pleasing in his sight 1 John 3:22 KJV. Jesus Christ is omnipresence amd omniscience to all the world. Quoted on blessing on united, congregational prayer. Jesus want you to have the gift of the Holy Ghost-cordial and sincere. Receiving the blessings -When speaking to have the presence of Christ is true and mighty Psalms 21:6 KJV Communion with his church as real. Speaking in advancement of position Psalms 16:11 KJV
Quoted: Measure is in believing the holy bible-Jesus Christ is life to follow. "
Word Spoken and Written by REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY
Therefore, if we had only John 3:16 to understand the afterlife (whether it exists or not), then we could well believe that 'perish' clearly means a complete cessation of life, as in someone (the body) who perishes in a house fire or perishes by drowning. But in relation to the Scriptures, we know that God has given us a spirit & that spirit is identifies who we are, given life by God, with an outer covering (a body) to house it, yet the spirit can never perish (die). Genesis 2:7; Zechariah 12:1; Job 32:8; 1 Corinthians 2:11; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; Ecclesiastes 3:21; Ecclesiastes 12:7.
And then we have the Judgement of God upon all, where those who belong in God's family, living a life consecrated to Him, are eternally secure from damnation, whereas all unbelievers (and their spirits can never be destroyed), suffer under God's condemnation. If only death was our final punishment for rejecting Christ, then we all still have to die as those in sinful, corrupt bodies; none can escape. This is a defective Gospel as most would prefer to cease to exist without any punishment & live life to the full, not answerable to God. But Christ's Sacrifice was to redeem lost sinful souls, not from death, but from God's eternal Punishment. Revelation 20:15; Revelation 21:8; Matthew 10:28; Matthew 13:49,50; Matthew 25:41,46; Mark 9:43; Luke 16:19-31; 2 Thessalonians 1:8,9.
Just a few Scriptures to show the Truth of an Eternal suffering in Hell & not simply disappearing forever in the grave. Every spirit (of man) is accountable to God.
West Angeles Church Consecration Calendar
Me being a member at West Angeles Cogic Church Cathedral Los Angeles CA
John 13:34 KJV
My Interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
"A language you can understand.How to love God. Loving God. Adorned-Example Reverence Scripture-Revelations 21:2 KJV. Not to default and defraud. Identified Christian to be in Love of God with another.
Ways you can be in the Love of God are listen to his voice and word to obey, follow and do it. Quoted scripture for Christians Romans 12:2 KJV
Examples of God's love ,loving God,Love of God is Galatians 5:22 KJV, 1 Corinthians 13 to have faith and holiness.
John 13:Verse 35
My Interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY
" Disciple-Showing the holy bible (Jesus Christ) is life. To see Jesus Christ commandments as the truth and believe (passed from death to life) John 3:16 KJV-Allowing the grace of God work upon your hearts.
Word Spoken and Written by REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY
West Angeles Church Consecration Calendar
Isaiah 41 Verse 10
My interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
"God doing everything he says he will for you of his Word examples such as complete,confirmation, comfortable whic is recieveing Jesus Christ in your heart( Romans 10:9-10) to believe and speak it by mouth faith of God to have and gain confidence to resist- James 4:7 and not covetousness. God gives abilities and makes you able to do it. Examples to do it are speaking, actions, attention of communications.
I Pray to God to be complete, God giving me confirmation in life and security. No challenges me having faith identity I John 3:2 KJV
Word Spoken and Written by REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY
Part 6.
Predestinated.
Ephesians 1:3-4Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
IN CHRIST.
I believe This speaks of Christ being the vehicle that was determined before the foundation of the world in which men would be saved. I believe it is Christ who is predestinated!
I believe God looks in his rear view mirror at the future.
He knows who will receive Christ.
I also believe John 3:16-20 'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that LIGHT is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than LIGHT, because their deeds were evil.
For every one that doeth evil hateth the LIGHT, neither cometh to the LIGHT, lest his deeds should be reproved.
But he that doeth truth cometh to the LIGHT, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
I also believe John 1:6-9
"There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, WHICH LIGHTETH EVERY MAN THAT COMETH INTO THE WORLD.
Verse 12!
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
See Part 7
Part 2
The Old Testament sacrifices and offerings was a foreshadowing of Christ, and the individual responsibility was on him and there were consequences. Some were saved and some were not!
They all were under the same influence and given the ability to receive according to his response. Faith in that economy system that pointed towards Christ.
When the brazen serpent in the bible was lifted up it was an invitation for all!
We got to be careful to describe God's Devine nature as something he chooses to be. God doesn't choose to love! God IS Love! God doesn't choose to be Righteous! God IS Righteous! God doesn't choose to be Just! God is supreme Justice and those attributes work together and never cease.
When we lay all those attributes out it paint a picture of a merciful, loving God who so loved the "WORLD", that he gave his only begotten Son, that "WHOSOEVER" believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (It doesn't say just the elect and it don't cause speculation in the righteousness of God!)
If we say we don't know then everything we present should be considered opinion not absolute.
We may not be able to fully comprehend the degree of Gods attributes to the fullest, but we know God ways is higher than ours!
SO, by the word of God and the indwelling spirit we are expected to display the love of God in our lives.
1 John 3:17-18 reads,
"Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
How do we reconcile God not giving the invitation and opportunity and shutteth up his bowels of compassion to a lost world what is required for salvation considering Matthew 7:13. "for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
See Part 3
You referenced Jerimiah 3:13 in saying that God has loved us (His chosen) with an everlasting love.
Here is Jerimiah 3:13 "Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
Perhaps you had another verse in mind. Also, you can't take what was written for Israel and apply it to the church.
As requested, here is what I believe.
Part 1
When considering John 3:13-21 and many other scriptures and then to contribute God's Love, Mercy and Compassion to only the elect is error.
The scripture clearly says For God so loved the WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the WORLD to condemn the WORLD; but that the WORLD through him might be saved. John 3:16-17.
The invitation is to ALL!
Look at the conditions in verse 18)
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
However you stated, We are not given the reason why He chooses some AND NOT OTHERS or because some unregenerated people will choose to be righteous due to their faith in God because they CANNOT have faith in God unless God graces them with it. So I ask you, How is the Love of God and Mercy displayed to them?
Note;
I'm not asking how and why God chooses to do the things you say he do!
I'm asking how do God display the Love of God?
The crucifixion is God's Love on display!
This is important to understand considering Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
See part 2
And you're correct about 2 Peter 3:9 & of course, John 3:16,17. How could we speak of a loving God Who has 'suffered long with a wholly sinful & depraved world, & yet not be willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance'? And this verse could not be applied solely to the elect whom God will save, and not the world of sinners, because He would know that according to His Plan of Election, that the Elect would definitely be saved & could never perish into everlasting fire - for that is not His Will & Plan for His Elect. It therefore must mean that God is giving the world time to hear the Gospel, be convicted by His Holy Spirit, repent, & be saved - and this salvation & rebirth they receive reveals God's Election for them; and yes, God already knew they would be saved & those who would refuse His Son. GBU.
I will speak to your last pint first.
God so loved the world. He loves His creation and is benevolent in administering His reign over it.
I believe that God loved the elect from before the world began and works in the life of the elect to bring them to faith and salvation. I do not believe that He begins t love us after we are saved. Jeremiah 3:13 says that God has loved us (His chosen) with an everlasting love.
As to your point about the "whosoever" of John 3:16 and the availability of salvation to all I believe that the Gospel is to be preached to every nation, tongue, and people. It calls people to be reconciled to God. Unregenerate people cannot believe the Gospel because they do not want to. They are unable to respond to the call of the Gospel because they are dead in sin and cannot please God or seek Him. Unless God does a work of grace in an unregenerate person, they will to reject the Gospel call and will to be at enmity with God. They are truly hopeless to come to Christ. I believe that only those who God regenerates are able to obey the call of the Gospel and that these people are the "elect".
For now, this is all I wish to write in this post addressing some of your questioning of what I have posted. I appreciate your response and will spend some time considering your other points.
I would like to ask one thing of you, though. Would you explain what you think about the topics I posted on, not to query me but to explain your position as I have done. That will help me understand more fully your viewpoint. Thanks in advance.