Discuss John 3 Page 7

Page 1.

Thank you GiGi for your thought-provoking comments here, as also on the Character Traits of God, now His Sovereignty & being Superlative. So, to continue here.

Going through your list of mankind's condition before God & God's Work towards man's renewal, I will list those, & other points, with verse(s), & in the order that I understand them.

a. Man's total depravity ( Romans 3:9,10,23).

b. God's Love & Mercy for all sinners ( John 3:16: 'loved the World' of sinners, not only the Elect; 2 Peter 3:9: 'God suffers long, not willing that any (all sinners) should perish'.

c. God's Foreknowledge, Predestination, Calling, Justification, Glorification ( Romans 8:29,30: Paul shares this order pertaining to believers, where the logic is, if God foreknew those who would be His, it is understood that He also knew those who would reject Him). And through His Knowledge, God chose us before the foundation of the world to be holy & blameless people ( Ephesians 1:4).

To what have we been predestined to? To be conformed to His Son's Image (v29), according to God's Purpose ( Ephesians 1:11), & to be adopted into His Family ( Ephesians 1:5).

Calling. Various types of Calling given in the Bible, but pertaining to salvation: 1 Peter 2:9, 'having called us out of darkness (our sinful state without God) into His marvellous light (our forgiven state with God & His Son). Do we then just transition from darkness to light without a work of God the Spirit in us? And it is to this point that our discussions have focussed. Paul in Romans 8 is speaking to believers, so the matter of repentance wasn't mentioned, but may have been implied here.

However, Paul in Acts 17 spoke to the idolatrous Athenians, 'that God calls on all men everywhere to repent'. And here we read that unregenerate men were called to repentance. Continued on Page 2.

What I believe and understand is that mankind is a spiritual being created by God, in God's image. God not being lonely desired to create mankind for fellowship and to become like God (through Jesus Christ). That is why it is referred to in the bible as a "high calling".

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2 KJV

According to the bible all of God's creations, including mankind, have a purpose. We are saved by the gift of grace, then to change to accomplish good works (or have the desire to live right and please God).

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Philippians 2:12 KJV

Even though Jesus paid mankind sin debt, mankind still has to accept Jesus and live according to God's word (commandments, statutes, laws, ordinances, etc.)

Ge.9:21-26 "Naked"

"And (Noah) he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent."

Noah is set as the double for Adam. "And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed." Adam was naked as Eve was and they were covered with the glory of God, which is the outward manifestation of Power and Wisdom principles at work. So Jesus says, "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work." Jesus Christ of God has become wisdom to us. With one man's sin death entered into the world. So shame is the state of man coming short of the glory of God. As with man's own righteousness it is filthy rags as the apron of fig leaves man and woman wore. God showed the truth without shedding of blood, is no remission.. The coats of skins figuratively expressed righteousness of God established in the emblem of the slain Lamb. In the light of the above nakedness merely defined the world of nations, their outer darkness.

Nakedness becomes an issue indicative of the flesh and blood. Flesh and blood shall not inherit eternal life. "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."(1 Co.15:50).

In the life of Noah we can see the same inversion principle working as in case of Jesus. He is the Lord of heaven who came down in his humanity in order to lead us to glory. Before the great flood he is set as the double for the Son and after, he is set after the likeness of Adam. He became a husbandman. Where Adam felt no shame before his fall we find Noah cursing Canaan over it.. The sinful earth required the Advent of Jesus Christ, to redeem the earth from the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8)

God demanded account of the blood from man and as a steward over His creation. "And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it." God warned Adam of death in his disobedience. It is in the day, decreed for his Son.

Ge.5:1 "After our image and after our likeness" (1 of 2)

"This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;"

The Spirit is giving us one narrative thread to show the sons of Adam and the other in the likeness of God. Because in the holy family of God the latter had the seed in itself and would show with their fruits that they were blessed under the covenant in the Man component. The first example to be called the righteous one is Abel. By offering,"the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof," he showed that he was planted by God. His works proved it. (1 John 3:12). Seth proved it by stepping into the breach made by Cain. (4:25-26) His generation proved by faith. "Then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.". It answers the period 'in the beginning' the book opened with. Ge.1:1

"These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens," (2:4) The Spirit now begins with the period in the day that God created which also is tacked on to the generations of Adam where after our image and after our likeness are made distinct.

The second narrative thread gives us that of Jesus, "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham."(Matt.1:1) Jesus as the son of David is "after our image" meaning according to the flesh as stated in this passage, "that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;"(Ac.2:29-30) There is another connection with regards to Abraham. Jesus tells the Jews that "Before Abraham was, I am." How did they receive it? They were the sons of Adam and did not have the truth in them. The truth signifies the seed that is in itself. "Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by."( John 8:58-59)

Ge.4 "Cain and Abel"

This chapter began with Adam, "And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from theLord." Carnal knowledge of sin begets only sin. It is thus Cain went bad. His name signified gift from the Lord. On the other hand the Spirit does not give a meaning to the name his sibling carried. But his works pleased the Lord. He had respect to the knowledge by the light shown into his heart. (2 Co.4:6) Knowledge when applied leads to understanding. Abels offering pleased God because of the slain Lamb. It signified the divine care that compensated for the loss of glory associated with his parents. He remembered the loss of God as well that his offering was some kind of compensation. Abel "brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And theLordhad respect unto Abel and to his offering." Every good and perfect gift is from above.

Cain was a gift from the Lord but it cannot be said of his offering, to which God had no respect. The ground was cursed for his father's sake. "Cain was a tiller of the ground./And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto theLord." Abel viewed offering from God's point of view as it were. Whereas Cain gave 'a tip' from the accursed ground with a 'take-it- or- leave-it' attitude. "Not as Cain,whowas of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous."(1 John 3:12) In short his works showed his parentage.

Page 2. David0921.

Ephesians 2:1,8-10. As earlier mentioned, these verses show that we were dead in sin, but now made spiritually alive. And this has happed by God's Grace & God's Faith that are given to the sinner under conviction so that he might be saved. Grace & Faith must be present before re-birth - not after; if after re-birth, then there is no point in such needed Grace & Faith after salvation, for salvation is already received.

You may "fail to see how my understanding fits with any of the verses you have quoted", so I've shared what my understanding of those verses is. "Universal Atonement", or better, 'The Gospel to be brought to all people' is taught in the Bible ( John 3:16, Matthew 28:18-20), that all need to hear of this Good News of Salvation & express faith in Jesus' finished Work to be accepted of God. Or else, the Holy Spirit should have alerted Paul, Peter, and others as to specific individuals that should hear, receive the Gospel & be saved, to the exclusion of all others. And I simply don't find them doing any such thing or even teaching it. True, the Lord knows who will come to Him in repentance & faith, but all must have the opportunity to hear & respond. And those who seriously attend to the Gospel & affected by it, will surely engage the Spirit's ministry to lead that lost sinful soul to the point of repentance & calling upon the Lord for salvation. Romans 10:12-17.

Ge.3:17 "Thorns and thistles" (1 of 2)

"Of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;"

Ground also implies human existence where disobedience sown by one man brings a bumper crop of misery. Labor is wasted and famine and pestilence are ever waiting to come in. Tree of life judged man who ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. What good is to use killer weeds and have the forever chemicals in the water you drink? What good is to save a burning brand out of fire only to have it set your own house in fire?

Only God is good and who is restoring the world ravaged by sin. "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." (1 John 3:8). The West is as much compromised by the works of the devil. We often heard ad nauseam the six millions Jews perishing in the holocaust. Do we hear as much of lives lost by the West. In 1943 was the Bengal famine owing to the wrong policies of Great Britain. Three million lives perished by their policies. Have they even publicly acknowledged their guilt? It is thus nations have shown their hypocrisy.

The West has thus interfered in the 'Jewish question' of the last century to see another kind of ethnic cleansing and genocide now going on before them in the present times. Growing up complacent and being complicit in their crimes does not leave the future generation free from guilt. It is sin where faithless generation shall flounder in the moral morass of their fathers. It is what law of sin demands the devil's due since sinful man is a servant to the devil.

The ground is only one part. Without considering both ground and the heavenly places carnal wisdom gives the ungodly a wrong prognosis. War on terror in Iraq led to something least expected. It has been thus from the beginning.

Hello JBTthe3rd. The word 'Sanctification' is from the Latin, 'sanctificare' (to make holy), and 'sanctus' (holy). We also get the word, 'Saint' from this word. The very real meaning of 'Separation' is also involved in this word, as that which is unholy cannot fuse with that which is holy, but must be set apart from it.

We can look at Sanctification in generally three aspects:

a. a true believer in God, having been saved & redeemed through Jesus' Sacrifice, is said to be 'Positionally Sanctified'. That is, by virtue of now being a child of God, through Jesus His Son, the Christian is Separated & made Holy unto God by this position in Christ ( 1 Corinthians 1:30; 1 Peter 1:2).

b. as the believer walks this new separated life, he is also 'Experientially Sanctified'. When we grow in knowledge & experience of our Lord & Savior, we grow to be more like Jesus, hating & avoiding sin and displaying more & more of the Fruit of the Holy Spirit ( Philippians 2:13, Galatians 5:22-25).

c. we can know that we are truly in Christ, separated from the world & its lusts; we can also desire to grow to be more Christ-like in all our ways; but since the pull of the flesh is always at war with our spirit, we long for the day for our 'Future Sanctification', when our earthly struggles will be over and we will be taken into Christ Jesus' Presence (whether in the Rapture or through the veil of death), and we will be entirely perfect (without any stain of sin) & become as He is Holy & Perfect (1 John 3:1-3, Ephesians 5:27, Jude 1:24,25).

Page 1.

Thank you David0921 for your response. I would align myself with most of what you've written concerning biblical inspiration, that the Word of God is indeed wholly authored by God. Yet, when I read 2 Timothy 3:16, that "ALL scripture is given by the inspiration of God", I would be in conflict with some who hold fervently that what we read now (from the ancient recordings, also the KJB) are the actual Words that God (by His Spirit) spoke to godly men to write. "Inspiration" to me, doesn't mean that God dictated the Words to record, nor does it mean that the fingers of the writers were gripped by Him to pen those holy Words. Rather, as men recorded down what they saw or learned, God's Spirit was present to help them record accurately and remember correctly. That said, since you brought it up, I'll move on.

"What do I believe the Bible says about the term BORN AGAIN?" When we have Scriptures such as John 3:3-8, 1 Peter 1:22-23, 1 John 2:29, 1 John 5:1, & others in John's epistle, we can believe that this re-birth is wholly of God & not of man's doing or involvement; that re-birth is a spiritual birth, whereby God gives us a new spirit (His Spirit) Who always inclines us towards God & His Son; that God's Ministry to us can only be to our revived spirit in us and not to the flesh that has no desire after godly things. Therefore, we are to continue to crucify our flesh which lusts against the Holy Spirit ( Galatians 5:17) in us & distracts us from serving God acceptably & in fear. Therefore, by the Holy Spirit in us, we have become new creatures in Christ Jesus, reckoning ourselves to be dead unto sin but alive unto God through Jesus Christ. This re-birth must be the final Work of God in the sometimes lengthy course in a person's struggle dealing with conviction of sin, brokenness, humility, & cry for a Savior to save & redeem him. (continued on Page 2).

Hi David.

Here's what I believe.

John 3:15-18.

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Also. 1 John 2:2.

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: (AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY)...BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD.

God bless

Hi you might want to consider using this website's "Bible Trivia" you'll find that at the top of the website. Testing your bible knowledge is a way to create more curiosity or desire for God's word and build your faith. It takes time to build faith and desire the things of God. Vegetables are good for children, at first some children don't like what's good for them, however as a child matures and grows a taste and appreciation for vegetables for what is good for them can be established.

Similar for believers the cultivating of the mind of Christ Jesus is new and it takes time to rid the old mind or way of thinking. It takes time to adjust to new things. Jesus is very patient and long suffering with each believer.

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV

If you accept Christ, you may not feel new right away, even though you are new, just believe it and live right, only believe what God's word has said about you. Only believe...God will satisfy your longing soul.

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2 KJV

Believe the truth of God and not the untruth of the enemy. "(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)" 2 Corinthians 5:7 KJV

Believer's don't walk by feelings, this is a learning way.

Also, you might want to try other types of Christian activities, like art, drawing, music, puzzles, crosswords etc. just to stay motivated and excited about your faith and believeth in God.

For example, I have a picture of Jesus walking on the water I look at this picture it reminds me of that same scripture and helps me think about our wonderful Lord and Saviour Jesus the Christ. Let us not give up on ourselves, because God will not give up on us.

Adam,

I never said that a saved individual does not sin.

1 John 3:7-9

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John3:9 is referring to being Born Again in our soul existence when God miraculously applies salvation to our life.

As is Ezekiel 36:24-27

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A NEW HEART also will I give you, and a NEW SPIRIT will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

But that new soul resides in a body that still lusts after sin. And we will never be sinless in our whole personality until we receive our resurrected spiritual body on the Last Day. 1 Corinthians 15

Romans 7:21-25

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

But thank you for responding.

Thanks again David0921. To your first two paragraphs, I find complete agreement: that God alone grants salvation to man, for man in his filthy sinful state could never contribute anything to assist in that glorious Plan of God.

But to your third paragraph. From what I gather, you're stating that God did not know (nor did He try to know) who would or would not respond to the Gospel. But He chose to save some regardless. So, would I be correct in understanding that God just picked out certain ones to save & the rest of mankind He rejected? Two areas of concern for me are: I don't believe that anything is outside the Knowledge of God - He knows all - He sees all. If knowing who would respond to Him is outside that knowledge, then you might find it very hard to support that belief, if you believe that God has, or has chosen to have, limited knowledge.

Secondly, Scriptures as John 3:16 ('God so loved the Worldthat WHOSOEVER believeth in Him'), and 2 Peter 3:9 ('The Lordis longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish'), show to me that all sinners, I repeat, ALL sinners are loved by God & the merits of His Son's death availed to all. I simply can't read it as 'God so loved the ones He picked out for salvation, that even though He didn't want any to perish, He, by His selection, would preclude some (or, many) to receive it'. This would also alleviate the necessity to preach the Gospel, even taking it to far off lands, for why should it be done, if God had already picked out His chosen ones & they will be saved regardless of them hearing and responding to the Gospel?

If we are at odds over these few matters, then even the matter of 'salvation being wholly of God alone' doesn't even arise at this stage. Maybe, you could show me what Scriptures support God not having foreknowledge of all things, and also that He selects some, refusing others for His salvation.

John 6:37 states "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

THE INVITATION IS TO THE WHOLE WORLD!

John 1:7-9. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that ALL MEN through him might believe.

He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

That was the true Light, WHICH LIGHTEST EVERY MAN THAT COMETH INTO THE WORLD.

1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: (AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY)...BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD.

( John specifically included the Greek word holou, which means "whole, entire, all, complete.")

Revelation 22:17. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And LET HIM THAT IS A THIRST COME. And WHOSOEVER will, let him take the water of life freely.

God loves each and every person ( John 3:16)

an atonement limited by God as a denial of the omnibenevolence of God.

Out of love God sent Christ to atone for the whole world. But nit everyone will respond.

God bless.

Hi David, it sounds like you believe you're on some kind of autopilot then after becoming a Christian, so you don't believe you have freewill and maybe assume everything you do is perfect?

>Noticed that every single action is GOD's. action, not OUR action.

I think you're cherrypicking a verse like 1 John 3:9 and making a dogma over it while disregarding the context. If you look at the verses before it, it clearly says believers sin. It's just that believers' sins are forgiven, if you abide in Christ.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Even believers need to purify themselves. The book is talking to Christians, as the verse before indicates.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

God will take away (forgive) our sin if we abide in Jesus Christ. It doesn't say that those who don't believe or don't abide in Jesus are forgiven. It doesn't say Christians are physically forced to not sin, and have no freewill to sin. No where in the Bible does it say that. The metaphor is from God's perspective, just like Hebrews 8:12 doesn't mean God has a memory problem. And just like drinking the blood of Christ doesn't literally mean his blood and those who eat bread aren't literally eating his body. And it doesn't say that a person loses their freewill or ability to even conduct themselves and become marionettes.

A few verses later it offers this strong warning (still addressed to Christians)

v8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

So in the same chapter it says the same Christian can sin, just not to Jesus (if abiding), because of grace.

Yes Adam, God commands us to "choose", to believe, to repent, to obey, to love, etc. The whole Bible is God's Law Book for mankind. But we have to read the verses you quote in the light of what God declares about the condition of mankind. And that is that all of mankind (Adam and Eve excepted before they sinned) WILL NOT and CANNOT "choose" to obey, to repent, to love, i.e. to keep the Law of God in a way that is pleasing to God. Read Romans 3:10-18 and other verses teaching this. And that we are Spiritually "Dead in Trespasses and sins". And that God must raise us from Spiritual Death to Spiritual Life. Eph 2:1.

Furthermore we know from the Bible that the penalty for even the slightest transgression of the Law of God is eternal Death. And in order for anyone to be saved, Christ, must have paid the full penalty required by the Law. And if that penalty has been fully paid, we no longer stand guilty before the Law of God and the Law cannot condem us. These are the Elect of God. We have no idea who these are. Only God knows. God's election program is God's business, not our business. But we know that God has obligated Himself to save everyone for whose sins He paid the full penalty.

But salvation does not end there. When God applies His salvation to one of His elect, He gives them a New Resurrected Soul, i.e. a New Heart in which, in itself, cannot sin. 1 John 3:9. And we become a New Creature in Christ 2 Corinthians 5:17. But we still have a body that has not yet been saved and that still lusts after sin. And though, once saved, we will have an earnest and ongoing desire to repent, to obey, to love God WITH OUR WHOLE HEART, we can, if we take our eyes off of Christ, fall into even grevious sin, as did David. But what was David's reaction when confronted with his sin? Read Psalm 51. So if we have become saved sin will become increasingly anathema to us. And we will long for the Day when God compleates our salvation by giving us our New Resurrected Spiritual Body.

I miss quoted here. I meant to reference 1 John 3:9 not John 3:9

Indeed bro Giannis. Leaving aside the matter of the water (whether it means from the Word or the flesh), I too sense the difficulty in understanding John 3:9,10 (..."Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"). As a teacher of the Scriptures, Nicodemus should have picked up, even a little, on what Jesus was trying to convey to him. My thoughts though turn to Psalm 51:10, Ezekiel 11:19,20 & Ezekiel 36:25-27 as passages that should have alerted Nicodemus' mind to Jesus Who was pointing him to a coming spiritual re-birth. And maybe his questions would have centered around those passages & what Jesus was speaking about. Unfortunately, Nico's mind couldn't recall those prophecies. GBU.

Becoming Born Again

John3:3-12

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Christ is here teaching Nicodemus and us something about the nature of salvation. The "water" is the Word of God, ie the gospel. As we read in John 7:38 and Rom 10:17.

The "Spirit" is God Himself as He applies salvation to the life of someone whom He is saving by miraculously giving them a New Resurrected Soul in which they have become a "new creature in Christ" and will have an earnest ongoing desire to be obedient to the law of God, ie to not commit sin. John 3:9 and 2 Corinthians 5:17. This is becoming Born Again, ie becoming "saved".

This is what God is teaching in Ezekiel 36:24-31

Thanks bro S. Spencer. I can see from what you've shared, & bro Giannis has also added to, that if we look at Jesus' Words to Nicodemus as purely from a spiritual point of view/understanding, then of course "to be born of water" must have a spiritual connection & not physical. But of course, I don't read that verse in that manner, rather as Jesus' direct answer to Nicodemus' question, which can be paraphrased, 'Yes, there is a physical birth but there is also a spiritual birth/re-birth which I'm telling you about' - 'that a man has to be born, yes physically, but also spiritually to enter God's Kingdom'.

A couple of Bible commenters have even suggested that this being 'born of water' (or, born of the flesh, John 3:6) is a reference to the amniotic fluid which surrounds an embryo in the womb. That this fluid is the water (representing the physical nature of birth) that Jesus refers to, and then to the other birth, which Nico had no inkling about, which is the new birth, not physical but from God's Spirit. But to this meaning (i.e. amniotic fluid), I would be cautious about. Anyway, remaining open over such passages is the key to spiritual enlightenment & understanding. Blessings.

Thanks David0921 for your comment, to which I fully agree. And welcome back to this Discussion Page. When you quoted Ezekiel 36:24-32 and verse 25 states, "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean...", I thought you intended to address the 'sprinkling of clean water' as reference to the Word, as some understand John 3:5 ('born of water'). However, you made no mention of this, so in respect of your comment, I agree, that salvation is all of God's Work - we contributing absolutely nothing to it, except to receive the Gift in brokenness & faith. GBU.

God gives us freewill to choose whether or not to follow Him. God will save his followers (sheep) not the wolves who do not believe or follow Him. 1 John 3:10. We aren't puppets and God is not a genie here to do everything for you.

1 John 2:23-26 some choose to go astray. This is a warning to remain in the truth, and be on guard against lawlessness. 2 Peter 3. God made it 100% up to each of us to choose who and what we want to follow. And many will choose unwisely. Matthew 7:13

Bro S. Spencer, thanks for your thoughts here. It was bro Giannis who shared 1 Peter 1:23-25, though my reference to Ephesians 5:26 wasn't intended to lend support to the belief that Jesus' Words to Nicodemus meant that 'Unless a man be born by (from) the Word and of (from) the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God'. I'm not sure that by telling Nicodemus that a man must be "born of water (really, the Word)" would have given him any satisfaction that his question was answered. To him, Jesus would have still been talking in riddles. Jesus could have stated that 'a man must be born again by hearing & receiving the Word of God and also His Spirit' which seems to make more sense in answering his question. But Jesus' use of being 'born of water', when Nicodemus is given no explanation that actually water represents 'washing by the Word', doesn't seem helpful.

But I agree, that John 3:5 has nothing to do with water baptism, since water baptism doesn't generate a new birth, rather a declaration of one's identification with Christ's Sacrifice & Resurrection after the new birth, as an act of personal & public witness. Unlike today in Western countries, such a baptism being undertaken in other countries holding to anti-Christian faiths, most likely meant rejection, or incarceration, or even death to the new believer. Blessings.

Hi Brother Chris and Giannis.

I have heard and studied both views on John 3:5 with the water mentioned being either the word of God or the physical birth.

Your in good company either way it goes.

I lean over to the water mentioned in John 3:5 is the word of God because of the verses you both sited

1 Peter 1:23-25.

Ephesians 5:26.

However, I don't see how it relates to water baptism.

I don't believe water baptism represents a washing.

I believe it testifies in one's belief in the death of Christ and the resurrection.

I believe the washing by the word has to be taken place prior to water baptism.

John 15:3.

God bless.

Thank you again brother for your comments. I would have much trouble equating 1 Peter 1:23-25 ('being born again by the Word of God') with John 3:5 ('one being born of water'): that as you believe, water here represents the Word of God. Maybe, Ephesians 5:26 ('sanctify & cleanse the Church with the washing of water by the Word') might bear some resemblance of the Word to water.

Yet, in both cases, I really can't place such a meaning here, since Jesus was answering the question posed to Him by Nicodemus ('how can a man have a second physical birth?'). And so Jesus answered him, not in some mysterious, confusing way, but clearly, that one's birth onto the Earth can only come in a physical way, but to enter God's Kingdom, man needs to be re-born by God's Spirit & not by human involvement. And of course, Nicodemus did not query this (though he may not have fully understood Jesus' Words), rather went on in verse 9 to ask, "How can these things be?" So, I see that water in John 3:5 equates to the physical/the earthly, & the Spirit to the immaterial/heavenly. And Jesus again confirms this in verse 6, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh (earthly = water/physical birth); and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (heavenly = Spirit/spiritual birth)." Anyway, I will keep your understanding in mind, if I can find some support in my further readings.

To the rest of your comment, I do find complete agreement, in respect to infant baptism and God's Foreknowledge of those who will respond to the Gospel. GBU.

Hello Chris, 1/2

Sory but I quoted that passage incorrectly. You are right, it says "Except a man be born again...".

As far as my belief in what "water" stands for in John 3:5, is concerned, it means the Word of God. As I said before it is the seed that is sowed by the Sower in all people's heart. When the soil/heart is a good and soft soil then that seed gets inside it and it sprouts, in other words when a heart is soft then the word of God gets inside it and causes repentance and regeneration, 1 Peter 1:23-25 describes that clearly. So without the word of God nothing can be done. I don't agree at all with a "magical" (sorry for the expression, I know many believe it like this) regeneration. There is no possible way that God regenerates infants that most possibly will become atheists afterwards. The idea of predestination the way some believe it leaves me in complete disagreement. If God chooses whom to select and save, then He would have been a racist and discriminative God. But in 1 Timothy 2:2-4 says clearly, " For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth". So if God wants ALL people to be saved why does He choose some for salvation? Because the whole interpetation of that is wrong, in my opinion. God knows who is going to accept Jesus and had His plans for the salvation of all mankind completed before the foundation of the world. So His choice has to do with our decisions made with our free will. It is obvious in the parable of the Sower and the good seed where Gods tries to plant His seed in every heart. But the result is due to our heart.

See pt 2

Thanks bro Giannis for those additional thoughts. If I might address your first paragraph, re: Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus. You mentioned, "Jesus said that except one is not born again (or from above)", or as the Bible quotes, "Except a man be born again"; ordinarily, I can see that there's a difference in meaning here, but can also see that the difference can also be seen as negligible, or just creating an argument on semantics. For the word 'except', I could use it equivalent, 'unless', which then correctly addresses Jesus' Words, that 'unless a man IS born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God', as opposed to, "unless a man is NOT born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God".

Also, I take your point on, "he cannot SEE the kingdom of God", as honestly I've never observed any difference between 'see' & 'enter' (as in John 3:5), yet I stand corrected in my understanding. But, I note the difference in the Greek words in this respect & also how it cannot apply to infant baptism. But are you of the general persuasion that John 3:5 "born of water and of the Spirit" applies to water baptism & Spirit baptism, rather than my understanding that it applies to 'physical and spiritual births', as an answer to Nicodemus' perplexity? Or, if to the former (i.e. to water baptism), then the necessity of water baptism which must be essential for salvation. GBU.

Thank you bro. S. Spencer for sharing that article & your thoughts on this matter of 'infant baptism'.

That was an interesting read for sure, but I do particularly note at your Part 4 (2nd para), quoting Paul Owen, "being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be BORN AGAIN through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven". Here, Paul Owen is quoting John 3:5, which actually says, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"; Jesus is not speaking of being born again of water, but of being born of water (of = 'ek', from, from out of), which Jesus qualifies in verse 6, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit". So Jesus is equating "being born of water" with the physical natural birth (which Nicodemus was specifically questioning in verse 4), and only the birth of (from) the Spirit is what is needed to enter "the kingdom of God". So Paul Owen's slight change of verse 5 to read "except a man be born again through water and the Spirit", can easily lead one to accept that Jesus was proclaiming baptismal regeneration.

And of course, as you rightly stated, a child (of whatever age), when he/she is able to understand what sin is & their own falling short of God's perfection, and that the only remedy is not found in them but in God's Provision of a Savior, then that little one must be led to the Cross, in faith & love, embracing Christ. In this, I see a full warrant for 'child baptism', or else a premature sprinkling on an innocent unaware child would amount to simply a type of 'child dedication' by the parents, which dedication of course, is highly commendable, sans the sprinkling. Blessings brother.

Romans 8:18-25 - written in Corinth during Paul's 3rd missionary journey - around year 57 AD;

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (According Philippians 3:20-21 combined with 1Corinthians 15:51-57 and Luke 20:35-36)

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of GOD.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

...

John 3:31-36

31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.

33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that GOD is true.

34 For he whom GOD hath sent speaketh the words of GOD: for GOD giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into His hand.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of GOD abideth on him.

Hi Tdianne,

As to your question you have received several answers, my understanding in the Bible baptism is done only by immersion as the word means. As Jesse said sprinkling did not start until the 1300s and it was for the reason it was so inconvenient. So, this was done just because of convenience's sake, nothing Biblical about it. I agree with Giannis, and we must believe as Jesus said in Mark 16:16.

All we do is to be done in our Lord Jesus's name, Colossians 3:16-17. Many use Matthew 28:19 but we also see in the rest of Scripture that a person who is baptized in Jesus' name is someone who believes in Jesus as Savior, the Messiah, the Son of God who for us died, was buried, and was resurrected we acknowledge this by being baptized in His name, Acts 2:38 Acts 8:12 Acts 8:16 Acts 10:48 Acts 19:5 Acts 22:16 Romans 6:3 Galatians 3:27 Colossians 2:12 Ephesians 4:5.

Paul shows the importance of being baptized in the name of Jesus, Acts 19:1-6. God has placed Jesus and His name above all that is in heaven and earth, Matthew 28:18 Philippians 2:9-11. Salvation only comes in His name Acts 4:12 Romans 10:13. The name of Jesus is the source of power and authority for healing, miracles, and deliverance, Mark 16:17 Luke 10:17 Acts 4:7 Acts 4:30 Acts 16:18.

We are to give thanks in Jesus's name, Ephesians 5:20. Our faith is through Him and in His name, Acts 3:16. We must believe in Jesus, John 3:16 John 6:47 Acts 16:31 1 John 3:23 1 John 5:13. Whatever we ask for we are to ask in His name, John 14:13-14. We are to pray to the Father in His name, James 5:14. Jesus is our priest and the only mediator between God and men, 1 Timothy 2:5.

God bless,

RLW