Discuss Luke 1 Page 11

Adam, the doctrine or dogma of the Trinity, debated first at Nicaea AD 325. The trinity today basically is God exists as three persons but is one being, having a single divine nature. The members of the Trinity are co-equal and co-eternal, one in essence, nature, power, action, and will. Let me know if this is incorrect.



Most Churches I have been to and believe me I have been to many they have said you have to believe in the trinity or you can not be a Christian. Most have a hard time even explaining it.

If the trinity determines being a Christian, does that also say you have no salvation without believing in the trinity?

Are there any scriptures in the Bible that say you have to believe in the trinity for salvation?

Can we believe God would be behind hundreds of thousands of early believers of Jesus to be killed for heresy because of this man-made doctrine?

If Jesus had the same will as the Father how do we explain this, Jesus just before he was arrested. Luke 22:41-42 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone's throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42 saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done." It is very clear they had a different will but the Son was obedient to the Father. Throughout the new testament it was always His Fathers will not His.

Is the Son equal with the Father? Is the Holy Spirit equal to the Father? Why did the Son ask the Father to send the Holy Spirit in Jesus' name if all three are equal?

It is said if we deny the trinity, we deny the divinity of Jesus. Can we as mortal man tell someone, what is not clearly said in scripture, you must believe something that was not taught by any of the Apostles or Jesus? We as one can only inspire others to study the Lord is the judge. I believe doctrines and traditions that places burdens, causes divisions, we need to flee.

In love, Ron

Blessed be the name of the Lord!

Thank you for the encouragement.

Glory to God, for I can take no credit as I am nothing, but all is due to the Holy Spirit that reveals all things by His word.

I can see that our Father is leading you into all truth as well.

Yea we can only speak as the oracles of God, and let the chips fall where they may; so to speak. Jesus never debated or strove with anyone, even saying to his 12 disciples; will you leave too? After the multitude departed from the 'hard' saying that they must eat of his flesh (the word) and drink his blood (his Spirit) in order to have life eternal.

Be encouraged and blessed as you abide in the words and doctrine of the Master Jesus Christ,

Andrew

Hi Sacha If there's nothing wrong with you holding on with what you believe in it shouldn't bother you if others feel the same way! Listening to your recent posts you're critical on people debating their differences but you join the debate and you presents yourself the same way in this Post when you say I'm quoting you. "you know it's nasty", and "you know it sounds spiteful," You've said before you "struggle"with Loving the brethern, it was something you have to work on", You've said "you slip out a curse word every now and then", end quote. No one is perfect, our flesh provokes us to do these things, but it's something the Spirit convict us of, ""ITS NOT A TESTIMONY " No one has defeated the flesh. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. Romans 8:11-12. That same Spirit teaches us all things, Including patience and Longsuffering, And he opens our eyes to the Scriptures. And he causes us to Love the brethren, "We are to hold one another accountable to provide truth in the scripture"

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for instruction in righteousness: Iron sharpens Iron! No one should get upset over the truth! We grow by the "Sincere" milk of the word.

We preach the cross and the cross means nothing if we don't believe in who the Lord say he is,

Revelation 1:8 (KJV) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY. We're not ashamed of that!

The cross is an offense to those who don't believe!!

I Pray you examine yourself, May the Lord be with you.

Hi Adam ,im sure that i dont need to tell any one on this site the difference between LORD and Lord ,i know it too .

Luke 10:21

In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

It's the same spirit of the pharisees, the mystery of iniquity, that rejects truth and cleaves to the teachings of men. This is why Jesus said:

Mark 4:9

And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Praise the Lord for ears to hear and eyes to see o/!

I have a brother who often says: if someone grew up on a deserted island and all they had was a kjv bible, they would never come up with the heretical idea of a "trinity" of gods.

Be encouraged Sacha, and pay no mind to the gainsayers/theologians. They must be born again of the seed (the word of God- 1 Peter 1:23) to see the truth, and only God can do that.

I pray that you are well this day, in Jesus' name.

P.S. I'd love to hear from you concerning your baptism in 1996 (as to how it was administered) if you care to email me, my address is just my screenname on here @ gmail (this app won't let you post addresses on here)

Sacha,

I just read Deuteronomy 6:4. Would I be misreading it if I believe it is referring to God as Lord? Also, Does God alone have all authority over heaven and earth?

Thanks, Richard,

God gives us one gift, His Spirit. I agree with you in that "God shall choose what gifts to bloom through His Holy Ghost in all His different members of the body of Christ. By His Will."

It's through His Spirit who has the ability and capacity to do all these things through us that we call "gifts." And yes indeed, I fully agree that it is by His will, not ours!

I am looking at 1 Corinthians 12:1 that says But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

I can see where the confusion comes in. We look at that and we think that we are supposed to seek for and ask God to give us the best gifts/s. But God only gives us one gift, His Spirit. I mean if God sovereignly gives according to His will, it doesn't make any difference what we ask for, right? He does what He wants. And that's the emphasis!

The last phrase, "And yet I shew I unto you a more excellent way."

Paul has already talked about the ministry of the one Spirit of God who He Himself has all the abilities and capacities. And God sovereignly ministers to me and through me, by His one Spirit, through various expressions of grace according to His will.

It's very simple until we start getting into the teachings that twist things like that last verse. People will say that God wants you to come and ask for the "best gifts" for yourself. But that's not what it's making reference to!

Dear Sacha,

If you're a Christian and don't believe Jesus is Lord then that is mystifying. If you don't believe in the many scriptures in the Bible that say not only Jesus is the son of God, but is God, then that is mystifying. You are in the minority who believe that. Many think saying such things as what you just said is a heresy, but I wouldn't go so far- I think it's just misunderstanding in the same way the other person did. Much of it involves falsely assuming a format like this: "Jesus has one title, therefore he can't (with my own human interpretation) have other titles, because my personal reasons." You suggested that Jesus is not Lord, but that's a foundational belief in Christianity and is throughout the Bible. It's sad that someone has to also assume false motives of another Christian too. Did you pray to God the Father about this before posting such controversy?

Examples of Jesus is Lord: Link

Romans 10:9

Romans 6:23

Philippians 2:10-11

Luke 6:46

Isaiah 44:6

John 13:13

1 Thessalonians 4:16

2 Timothy 1:8

Acts 16:31

1 Corinthians 12:3-5

Did you reach each of the above?

Romans 10:9 for example says: ""That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."" - some translations word it as "...if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord..."

Deut 6:4, Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

This verse is similar to: 1 John 5:7-8, John 10:30, and John 1:1, John 1:14, and so many others that say Jesus is God. This doesn't mean Jesus is God the Father, but Jesus is God the Son.

When it says "we are one" that does not mean they are separate. It means they are one. So, when a man says they can't be one, or Jesus is separate somehow, because it says they are 'one' that idea self-contradicts itself. I believe the Bible as it is written.

S Spencer, may the Spirit grace us with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.

Isaiah 9:6 ..... HIS NAME shall be called

Christ bears the NAME of his Father just as we bear the name of our earthly father; but the Father (through Jesus) gives us a new name. We will bear the name of our true Father.

Revelation 2:17 .... To him that overcometh .......I (the Father) will give him (the overcomer) a white stone (the cornerstone, Christ) and in the (new) stone (us) A NEW NAME written, which no man knoweth SAVING HE THAT RECEIVED IT.

I Know HIS wisdom and HIS understanding will grace you with the answer.

Romans 8:29

Revelation 22:13

Ephesians 2:15

1 Peter 2:24

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Hi Andrew ,Deuteronomy ch 6 v 4 ,how can any one misread this ,ive spent a while over the last few days looking up the references for both sides and i am genuinely mystified as to why any one can ever believe that Jesus is God ,im dumbfounded by it ,it reminds me of when i was a child ,my parents divorced when i was 7 and my mum would occasionaly have a boyfriend and she once asked me if i wanted to call him (brian i think ) ,dad and even at that age i knew what was false and said 'but hes not my dad is he ' , im starting to wonder if we are reading the same book ,i was brought up without religion and when i wanted to know about it i didnt ask any ones opinion ,i came to the Bible as an ignoramus ,i took it all at face value and wasnt interested in what any one else thought about any of it ,i knew that if God wants us ,me ,to get to know Him he wont make it hard to understand ,He doesnt want us to be confused or unsure ,He says what He means plainly ,im not highly educated yet i can understand it ,i can only think it must be some sort of outside influence ,maybe subconcious ? I just dont understand why people have this belief ,its mystifying .I hate to say this as it does sound aggresive but i wonder if its the 'i know something you dont ' attitude ,causing division in order to exclude people who dont agree with you ,i know thats a spitefull thought from me but i just cant understand the reasons behind it .Sorry if i sound nasty i really dont mean to but im completely at a loss to figure it out .

2 Corinthians 5:19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the word unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Good morning! Was it not the flesh of Jesus with no sin of its own that suffered as God in man while the Spirit of God looked on?

I agree, John was unique, we're probably splitting hairs here, God bless

I enjoy your posts

May you continue in your seeking truth , And sharing it .

You have good clarity of thought and good bible understanding, a few points I may not agree with but I never met anyone I fully agree with either. But those things can be worked on .

But outright error is not of God that many have , unknowingly , because they look to men for answers , and not in Gods word .

Yes John inherited flesh from Adam and needed to be born again .

But When God the father wants to do something or use someone, no one can prevent him from his will .

Remember Jesus said God could raise up stones to worship as Jesus came into Jerusalem on a donkey ?

With God all things are possible, he proves that often .

If God chooses to use anyone he will equip and use them .

So John the man was used by God , read about it ...

God seems to enjoy doing the impossible for those that trust him . How about the parting of the Red Sea ! That's contrary to the laws of nature . So many examples in the bible .

Dear Adam,

With all due respect, I've given you the word of God, not my interpretation, and you have rejected it choosing to cleave to the witchcraft/theology of rome and her 501c3 seminary indoctrinated sorcerers.

The problem here is when I read John 1:1, "and the Word was God"; I believe it as it is written, the written (yes every word of the kjv) or spoken word/logos was God (in the beginning it was only spoken). The Word was with God and the Word was God. Verily in the same way my Word also is with me and I am my Word, it represents me.

But when you read John 1:1, you believe the word; Word: actually means Son of God or Christ. This is because you have been taught to believe this by Rome. This is called witchcraft, the purposeful twisting of words to mean something other than what they mean.

God didn't die on a cross.

God cannot die, and has never been born. He is without beginning or ending.

The Holy Spirit is eternal.

The son of God, the man Christ Jesus( 1 Tim. 2:5) died on a cross, and God resurrected him.

Yes Jesus Christ was a man.

But he wasn't just any man, he was the son of God born without sin, because the Holy Spirit was his Father and a virgin was his mother, therefore he was not born under the curse of Adam, and he lived a sinless life yet being tempted in all the ways we are so he would be the sinless sacrifice for all humanity.

He was also that prophet spoken of by God to Moses:

Deuteronomy 18:18

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Just because He spoke the words of His Father (as you referenced John 8:58), does not make Him a "person of the godhead". Many prophets spoke the word of God and didn't claim to be part of the godhead. That is heresy. The word godhead is a singular word, not plural and there are no "persons" in it.

This is your final admonition to come out of Babylon (rome).

Be well.

Jesus Christ, the Son of God; is called the Everlasting Father because He is now seated on the throne on the right hand of the Father (remember God is a Spirit he doesn't have hands- right hand just means place of authority(like "right hand man" - this is why he said in Matthew 28:18 " all authority has been given to me in heaven and earth") in his glorified body and the same Holy Spirit dwelling in that glorified body.

This is how Jesus and the Father are one:

By the Holy Spirit (who is His Father) dwelling in Him.

That same Holy Spirit dwells in Christians and causes them to speak in tongues & prophesy.

Praise the Lord!

Thanks for sharing your evidence. I agree with all the scriptures and believe and trust in the Bible. I don't trust your interpretion of it, however, as to arrive at such a conclusion you first have to cherrypick a few verses and ignore many verses. Secondly, the few cherrypicked have to then be interpreted in an unconventional, distorted way.

So, it sounds like you don't believe Jesus is God, despite the scripture clearly saying that in these scriptures and elsewhere: John 10:30, John 1:1, 1 John 5:7-8. Jesus is the Word and the Word is God is 100% clear to even children readers.

The first piece of evidence you used to claim He's not God is Matthew 16:15-17 saying He's the Son of God. But these aren't mutually exclusive. It sounds like you're assuming Jesus somehow can't be both God and the son of God. That's not much different than someone claiming God the Father can't be God, because He's the Father. So, I think your interpretation of this being 'evidence' that Jesus isn't God is a false assumption.

2 Corinthians 5:19 - God in Christ. That too doesn't mean Christ isn't God's son or isn't God. That involves making yet another assumption.

John 20:17 - this is your strongest piece of evidence, but again, I believe you have to make another false assumption and ignore earlier in the same book where it clearly says the Word (Jesus) was God. How can you refute that verse so easily. The Bible says Jesus is God in many places, He had the power of God to perform miracles, He died for you, and you prefer to ignore the parts of John that say He's God in favor of the part that says His father is God to draw such a conclusion. Just because you have a hard time understanding the trinity doesn't mean one must rush to such a conclusion to disregard John 1:1, John 1:14, John 8:58, Titus 2:13, Matthew 1:23, etc.

One thing I do agree with you on is to not trust man's interpretation. That's why I don't trust your interpretation, but trust what the Bible says. God bless you.

Very good detail to come up with in your study Jesse. As I checked you are correct and the word "gifts" is not in the Textus Receptus in ( 1 Corinthians 12:1. Great job! God shall choose what gifts to bloom through His Holy Ghost in all His different members of the body of Christ. By His Will. Amen.

John 17:5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

When he was returned to his Glory he addresses his self the way he did in the old testament.

Isaiah 9:6(KJV) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, (((THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, THE PRINCE OF PEACE ))).

Can someone tell me why is the SON called the everlasting FATHER inIsaiah 9:6??

Look at the opening of Revelation 1:1.

( The Revelation of Jesus Christ.)

""The unveiling "" The climatic declaration of who he is.

Look how he declares himself to John.

Revelation 1:8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, ((THE ALMIGHTY!!))

Here is how Almighty is defined in Revelation:

Greek:

Transliteration: pantokratr

Pronunciation: pan-tok-rat'-ore

Definition: From G3956 and G2904; the all ruling that is God (as absolute and universal sovereign): - Almighty Omnipotent.

KJV Usage: Almighty(9x), omnipotent(1x).

Occurs: 10

In verses: 10

"" ME AND MY FATHER ARE ONE""

Furthermore, on an equally serious topic:

May I ask; unto what were you baptized and have you received the gift of the Holy Ghost (as evidenced by speaking in an unknown tongue) ?

Verily, I have received this truth by revelation of my Father in heaven. The same way Peter received it and proclaimed when Jesus asked him

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

- Matthew 16:15-17

Jesus is the Son of God.

Do you see?

He's not the pagan babylonian/roman "god the son"

2 Corinthians 5:19

King James Version

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

The Holy Scriptures proclaim

God was in Christ.

Not God was Christ. Or Christ was God.

This is why Jesus told Mary after he was risen:

John 20:17

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God

Jesus had a Father and a God and that God was in Him and in Heaven @ the same time.

When you say Jesus was fully God you exalt the flesh and create an idol for yourself.

All the pagan religions have a trinity: starting with the original mystery of iniquity in Babylon (nimrod semiramis and tammuz) to Hinduism, greek gods, roman gods etc.



Christian's only believe in one God, the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ who is the Holy Spirit.

The verses you referenced speak nothing of a "trinity" of Gods. 1 John 5:7 is speaking of God the Father who is in heaven.

And 1 John 5:8 is speaking of the blood covenant by baptism of water and Spirit on the earth.

John 8:31-32

Trust in the word and forsake the teachings of deceived men.

Be well, in Jesus' name

Respectfully, that is your opinion, and not what the scripture declares. You have chosen to interpret the Bible a certain way and that is your opinion. Most Christians don't read the Bible in the way you describe and disagree with you. But what really matters is what God says the truth is. There's been some fake news circulating around lately where some are claiming Jesus isn't God, but a few Bible scriptures debunk that lie very quickly.

Here's what the scripture declares: John 10:30. John 1:1. 1 John 5:7-8.

The heresy of claiming Jesus didn't become man and wasn't who he said he was even occurred back in Jesus' times and is even in the Bible! 1 John 4:2; 2 John 7. It literally calls these people spreading the lies the antichrist.

So, the Bible clearly says that Jesus is God and was fully man. Since it says that, the phrase Jesus was fully God and fully man sounds true. Just because the phrase in that word order doesn't appear in the Bible doesn't mean it's not 100% true. The Bible also doesn't use the word restroom anywhere, but that doesn't mean people never had to use a bathroom or toilet.

Since it clearly says in the Bible it's true, it seems like an unusual argument to make against it being true. It doesn't seem like such an argument would come without scripture evidence or without serious prayer asking God if this is true or not, before spreading such information around. The Bible calling someone an antichrist is not a joke- that is a serious offense to mislead others and try to stir up doubt in the body of Christ. So, what is your evidence of this and have you first prayed to God and asked for confirmation if this idea contrary to scripture is "true"?

God bless...

Good evening Richard, I am like many, happy to read your thoughts and quickened use of scriptures that back them up. It is a gift.

Thank you, Carleton

Concerning "spiritual gifts" being given to believers, years ago I was taught that the only gift we are actually given is the gift of the Holy Spirit. Our English bibles seem to indicate that God gives us other gifts. But does He?

I did a study in both the KJV and the Textus Receptus about gifts. I began in 1 Corinthians 12:1 where it says "Now concerning spiritual gifts." Our English bible says spiritual gifts, but the Greek does not have the word gifts.



The literal translation from the Greek text reads "Now concerning the things of the Spirit."

The things that we call "gifts," as if God is giving these gifts to us, are not gifts we receive. We are given His Spirit. That's the gift. Everything else that we call a gift, and I think there are nine things that are mentioned, they are not actually gifts that God gives us, but manifestations of His Spirit.

Throughout the NT, there is only one place that the Greek word for gift, as in giving a gift to someone is used. Every other place the word gift is used, a different Greek word is used and it describes the capacities of the Holy Spirit. Paul taught that there is one Spirit and He has all the abilities and capacities for all of the ministry things of God.

The Greek text uses two different words for our word gift. The only place I see the word gift used in the New Testament that refers to a gift that is actually given to us is the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In Acts 2:38, Peter says you shall receive the (gift) of the Holy Ghost. The word gift here is actually a gift that's given. It's the word DIDOMAI. It means to give. Every other place where the word gift is found, the word used is CHARISMA. It comes from the word CHARIS which means grace. CHARISMA is an expression of God's grace. It has nothing to do with a gift that is given to us.

The only gift we are promised and given is the gift of the Holy Spirit. All the other gifts (CHARISMA) are the capacities of God's Spirit and expressions of His grace.

I understand. I've always loved the stories and prophesies about how Jesus came to earth: John's birth and then Jesus. Then the one when John was imprisioned; before his death.

Luke 7:16-39

Especially what John said from the depressing darkness of prison, awaiting death:

And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, "Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?" Luke 7:19

[Showing that from the least to the greatest, sometimes we have doubts in loneliness and darkness]

24: And when the messengers of John were departed, he (Jesus) began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?

25: But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in kings' courts.

26: But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet.

27: This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

28: For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

>Thank you for enduring my posts that are about fond scripture passages that I find comforting.

Mishael

Respectfully,

Jesus was never "fully God & fully man" (that term is not found in scripture)

The man Christ Jesus is called the Christ, because he was annointed with the holy Spirit of his Father. This is the definition of the word; Christ - the annointed one.

When was he annointed? :

Luke 3:22

And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

This is when the fulness of the Godhead (God the Father who is the Holy Spirit - John 4:24/ Leviticus 11:44) began to dwell in the body of His Son ( Colossians 2:9).

Not at His birth.

Yes, Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit (God the Father)-( Matthew 1:18) in the womb of a virgin.

But the Holy Spirit (God) did not begin to dwell in His Son until His baptism by John in the Jordan.. and only then did Jesus begin His 3.5 year ministry of miracles signs and wonders.

This is not my opinion, this is what the scripture declares.

Hi Carleton,

As you stated I believe Jesus Christ was filled with the Spirit of God since He was in Mary's womb.

God Bless.

Jesus was Born of God through Mary and the Holy Spirit .

At Jesus baptism Jesus was anointed by the father with the Holy Spirit for Jesus ministry that he finished! Amen

Anointing is for service to God .

It shows how the father is in control of the Holy Spirit ...

Without anointing by God , all is vain service . We need to walk holy lives to please God , a challenge indeed. You can not sin and be lead by the Holy Spirit , John was an exceptional man being led by the Holy Spirit from the womb . Yes John had a special service to be a light for the Lord Jesus .