Romans
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Brother Giannis. Always glad to hear from you & receive your understanding of the Word of God. This subject of election I have temporarily laid aside, as I await GiGi's commentary on it specifically, as she continues with her subject of God's Attributes/Character which I've appreciated very much.
But since you've raised it here, and cited Romans 9:9-16 in respect of Esau & Jacob, I also referred to this Scripture in my response as you've seen. My emphasis was on the fact that God's Sovereignty in Election in this case was based wholly on His choosing the descendency of Israel, His chosen people, and NOT for the salvation of their souls: each one in Israel, along with Isaac, Jacob, Esau & all of Israel, were still responsible before God for their faith, obedience, & devotion. So, there would be many in Israel, then & now, who would be rejected by God for salvation in spite of their Election, receiving the Law & Promises. Indeed, "not all Israel which are of Israel" ( Romans 9:4-6).
I understand from what you've shared here, that you too believe in the "foreknowledge of God" in His election of those to be saved. Romans 8:29,30 and 1 Peter 1:2 particularly reveal this Truth. Now, I realize that some have 'reinterpreted' 'Foreknowledge' (Gk. prognosis) to be in relation to His Sovereign Plan without any factor affecting it (whether from man or God Himself): i.e. He simply chooses & it happens. Whereas, I believe, and please correct me if I'm mistaken, that 'Foreknowledge' in the New Testament refers to the prior knowledge of God, particularly seen in His Omniscience and Sovereign Plan. It implies God's prior knowledge of all events, all individuals, of all time, and quite often in the context of His redemptive purposes for mankind. This term is used to express the concept that God, in His infinite Wisdom, knows all things before they happen and has a predetermined plan for creation and salvation according to that knowledge. To Page 2.
Pt. 2
God, as the only God, who is sovereign above all, is utterly free to show mercy to whom He will - and He has chosen to be merciful to His people who have been elected, called, and reborn in the Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Mercy of God made human. He himself was, and is, the mercy of God to us
In ( Exodus 34:6-7) God again highlights to Moses that He is gracious and merciful.
God is not unjust; by no means will He clear the guilty and simply ignore or sweep sin under the rug. Yet, as these verses show, the first and greatest truth for His people to know about Him is He is "a God merciful and gracious."
His grace and mercy shine as the apex of his glory. He is "slow to anger" - He is patient and yet, even in such justice, he is slow to anger. Wrath is his righteous response to evil, but it is not his heart.
Romans 9:22-24 gives us the deepest glimpse into God's heart, and what we find at bottom is mercy. This is perhaps as deep as the Bible goes in explaining to us why God governs his creation as he does. Paul puts it in the form of a question, not because he's unsure of the truth, but for rhetorical effect, because it is awesome and sobering to contemplate.
"22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"
God does, indeed, show his righteous wrath. He is holy. To not demonstrate wrath in a world of sin and rebellion against Him would be untrue to Himself and unloving to His people. God is able to do just as He promised concerning unregenerate humanity. Severity in God always serves his heart of mercy - "to make known the riches of his glory to his people, who are the vessels of his mercy."
See Pt. 3
2 Corinthians 3:15-16But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
( The it mentioned here is their heart!)
It is Israel that was blinded because they sought righteousness by the Law. Romans 9:31-32 and other places.
Also Romans 11:6-11 reads
"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the ELECTION hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Let their eyes be darkened that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
A temporary blindness! Romans 11:25-26.
Quoting you!
Paul says very clear, very open, very bold, you know exactly what the gospel is. It isn't hidden. It's not behind a vail. It's out in the open.
That's very clear. The Gospel, "The Good news, or A good message "
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; Romans 9:30-32.
Peter sums this up in Acts 15:5-11.
Great study!
God bless.
How lovely is this verse in Lamentations to the ears of forgiven sinners who believe the gospel and put their faith in Jesus Christ!
GOD'S COMPASSION
Pt. 1
Compassion is deep empathy towards those in need. It is concern, sympathy and pity for the suffering of others and a desire to alleviate their suffering.
Compassion is being moved in the affections of our inner being when we see the distress of others, coupled with a subsequent outer movement of action in which we seek to alleviate that distress out of love for God and love for neighbor.
The most important object this word is used to describe is God Himself. God is the root and foundation, the spring and fountainhead, of all true compassion ( 1 John 4:16). God's compassion is extolled throughout the Bible. Below are two particularly pertinent passages.
"Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression for the remnant of his inheritance? He does not retain his anger forever, because he delights in steadfast love. He will again have compassion on us; he will tread our iniquities underfoot. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea" ( Micah 7:18-19).
God's compassion is related to His mercy, kindness, patience, grace, forgiveness, and love. In fact, some of these attributes are so related and interwoven as to make clear demarcations between them difficult.
God's compassion compels Him to take action. He is not an impotent observer, nor is He unmoved by our sufferings and enslavement to sin. He is the omnipotent sovereign ruler of the universe ( Romans 9:14-16) and in Christ He suffers with us when we suffer ( Hebrews 4:15).
For sufferers, one of the most hope-giving promises is Christ's assurance, "I am with you" ( Matt. 28:20).
See Pt. 2
In Romans 9:15,18, we read of the selection of Jacob & his descendants over Esau & his, that "the election of God might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" (v11); i.e. through Sarah & not Hagar. And v18: where Pharoah's heart was hardened by God in the matter of the Israelites departure from Egypt. These examples serve to show that God indeed has every right to do with us according to His Purposes. But how should this be understood when referring to the sinful condition of the human heart and its need for salvation, given the Holy Character of God? Can we expect that God will apply the same conditions of Election as seen in those examples: Moses' standing before God; the descendency of His special people through Isaac & Jacob; & using a heathen ruler to accomplish His Will, when the very essence of His Offer & Provision of His Salvation through His Son is bathed in Holy Love & Mercy for all, for all have sinned?
I am glad to respond to you on this topic. Please read what I posted to Chris and what I post to you here will follow that post to Chris.
In using the word favor, I am not speaking of favoritism, but biblically as it is used in Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:18. God's favor is God's good pleasure extended to undeserving creatures. Hope that clears that question up a bit for you.
The other matter of "righteousness". No one gains God's favor for their own good deeds because Scripture is clear that no one is righteous, seeks God, or can merit God's favor. It is the righteousness of Christ every elect person must have to be justified before God. But if we are dead in our sin and rebels against God, not wanting to obey Him at all when unregenerated, how can anyone turn to God to be saved unless God performs in us what is needed to do such a repentance of turning to God to be saved.
God is not capricious or arbitrary in His election because to be that way would be sinful. Nor is He a "respecter of persons" (such as deciding "I will only elect men" or some other aspect He finds in a person) because that would be sinful, too. God is just and righteous. Therefore His reasons for electing who He does in hidden in His internal counsel in the persons of the Godhead. We are not given the reason why He chooses some and not others in Scripture. But it does say in Romans 9 that it is not according to someone doing anything good or evil such as with Jacob and Esau, or because some unregenerated people will choose to be righteous due to their faith in God because they CANNOT have faith in God unless God graces them with it.
Thanks for responding to my post. I always am glad that you "press into" what people post to get more clarity or to engage in discussion of differing ideas on a topic.
Blessings to you tonight and always.
I can understand your query on this topic of God being free to favor whomever He wishes and to not favor whomever He does not.
We see God speaking this way to Moses in Exodus 33:19 when Moses asked to see God's glory and also in Romans 9:18.
I will speak on this more when I get to the topic of election, but for this post I will say that I don't think we really know why God chooses the way He does in election and in extending His grace and mercy to some to save the elect and not to others. But I do believe that everyone who is not elected is not condemned so much because God determined it to be so (which is strict determinism) but rather stand condemned because they freely chose to sin against God as we all have done and are therefore completely responsible for being vessels of wrath as Romans 9 states. However, the elect were chosen by God before creation and before any of us had done anything good or evil, as Jacob and Esau are given as an example in Romans 9.
I can't truly say why God chose you or me or anyone who is given faith by God to believe the Gospel and place our faith in Jesus alone for salvation. But I do believe that our election is not because God looked forward I history to see that we would choose to believe these things on our own because Paul speaks clearly in Romans that no one is righteous or seeks God or can please God, being dead in sin and blind to the gospel of grace. Although God does know all things past present and future and works history out according to His perfect, wise, and holy will, pleasure, and plan for creation. This does not mean that He is the cause of all things that happen, but that He is sovereign in whatever comes about in history as a whole and in individual lives. He brings about circumstances to affect people for His purposes and allows or disallows events according to this same wisdom and will. But this is not determinism because every person chooses freely their actions, words, and motives . see Pt. 2
On its own, that Truth certainly stands firm without question. But the question that arises in my mind is: if that's all we had to go on, then God is indiscriminate in granting His Favor, Mercy, & Graciousness, and by extension, those not receiving that Love are consigned to complete estrangement from Him & His Salvation for no fault of their own since that was already His Will for them. To deal with such a thought & undergirding it with John 3:16 for example, that God loved the world (of sinners), I've always believed that there was something behind God's election of people, that caused Him to show or withhold favor to some & not others. Maybe this thought of mine goes outside the purvue of your submissions, but wanted to share, as you've invited comments.
As an example, & this would particularly be of interest to ex-military, our drill sergeant asked us to form a single line before him, with the tallest men at the ends, descending to the shorter ones in the center. From the left, each guy had to shout out numbers from 1, 2, etc. Then the command for only the odd numbers to take two steps forward (always had that one who forgot his number). And then with the two lines of men before him, the command given to turn right. What we had now were two lines of men that still maintained the height order that the sergeant wanted & without any other requirement (i.e. not character or expertise-based). This then would be an authority figure who randomly elected each one to a position in the squad, without any pre-knowledge or pre-qualification.
Should we understand God to also be so indiscriminate in selection, randomly appointing some to receive His Favor, others not?
Since we know that Scripture reveals God's right and authority and power and prerogative to do as He pleases and we know that whatever He pleases to do is always holy, good, righteous, and pure, we must admit that He is free to determine the judgment and curse of sin for sinners according to His wisdom, not ours. And we must admit that He is free to show favor to whomever He pleases and to withhold it from whomever He pleases. ( Exodus 33:19; Romans 9:15).
God alone determines what is morally right and wrong. He alone decides how He will deal with sin, evil, and wickedness in His creation. He alone decided that He will unconditionally redeem those He has chosen before creation to receive His mercy, grace, and favor. He alone determined that those who are unredeemed sinners are under eternal condemnation and recipients of His unmitigated wrath. In all of these determinations, God is just, right, and sovereign.
That Damascus Rd experience must have truly set his heart on fire for the Savior & for lost souls. He heard Jesus speak, he believed & went forth with a singular determination in his heart. We haven't seen with the physical eye or heard with the ear, yet with Spirit-given faith we ought to have the same heart & fervour for Jesus and those lost without Him: "blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed" ( John 20:29). Every blessing.
Great to see you back. It looks like you had a very enjoyable vacation in Florida and the Caribbean. I assume you made it back home safely. The Lord is good!
You are understanding correctly, and I do agree that Paul had a burning passion for their salvation as you say. If Paul truly wished for them to be anathema before God, then I would have to agree that it can be viewed as being hypocritical. My thoughts on this are that Paul was perhaps giving warning to not only those who were rejecting the gospel message, but also to those who professed to believe but, in their heart, they had no love for the Lord.
A person who does not have love in their heart for the Lord is already in a cursed state. This is not to say that they will always remain in this condition, but if they continue to reject the gospel message, Paul says let them be accursed. I think we both agree that Paul had no desire to see anyone lost or accursed. In fact, in Romans 9:3, Paul makes a very powerful statement. We know he was the apostle to the Gentiles, but he had a deep love for his fellow brethren, Jewish, Hebrew brethren. He was willing to suffer the separation from Christ throughout eternity so that they would be saved, even though that's not possible.
Brother, it is truly amazing how we can recall certain messages given many years ago. That message had to be powerful to stick with you for so long. I notice in Colossians 3:3 that it says we are dead, and the word for dead in the verb tense is Aorist which means that it has already happened in the past. Upon salvation, we died to our old self and put on Christ, so we are dead, and our life is hidden with Christ in God.
You gave a great summary passage in Romans 8:38-39. There isn't anything that can take us and separate us from the love of God. Jesus is interceding for us. The Holy Spirit is interceding for us. We are in God's mighty grip with a salvation complete and secure in Christ Jesus!
Blessings!
Romans 9:13 - As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
What a serious statement to make! I have shared this in the past about these two words. The terms love and hate are called words of comparison. The words themselves don't mean He loves them, and He hates them.
The Greek word for hate, MISEO means to love less. It doesn't mean hostility. In Matthew 10:37, Jesus says, "He that loves father and mother more than me is not worthy of me, and he that loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."
Jesus is talking about comparisons. He's saying that we must love Him so much that in comparison to everybody else, it looks like we hate them.
Romans 9:22 - What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
This word "fitted" is what's called the middle voice in Greek. That is, the vessel itself made itself a condition of a vessel for destruction. Nowhere in the text does it ever say God makes a good vessel for a vessel of destruction.
Just like Judas Iscariot, he didn't become evil and filled with Satan because God says, "You come here, I need to put Satan in you because I need somebody to be an evil disciple." The bible says he was evil already, and that Jesus literally chose, and that's what He said in John Chapter 6, "Haven't I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a demon." He needed somebody who was evil to fulfil the role of an evil disciple. But Judas was already evil.
So, a vessel fitted for destruction, and the word fitted means that the vessel conditions itself to be fitted for destruction. God doesn't do it! But once it's fitted for destruction, and it is a vessel of destruction, God uses it. He uses both honorable vessels and dishonorable vessels. He'll use them both for His glory and for His honor out of His choice.
Romans 8:26 - Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
With groanings which cannot be uttered. Some say that this is speaking in tongues. They say that this is "praying in the spirit." I would say to them no, you didn't catch it. It says groanings which cannot be uttered. The word uttered in the Greek means unspeakable. It's not words. The Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be spoken.
Romans 8:28 - And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
The word good is AGATHOS, spiritual good. Human good is KALOS. That makes a big difference because if I'm looking at it religiously, humanly, and on a horizontal physical plain, when it says, "all things work together for good," that means in the human, God's going to work things out good for me in the human and in the flesh.
But this is spiritual good. Also, please notice that it doesn't say all things are good. It says that all things are going to be worked out for the good. What's good and bad in the human, that's our judgment system. To God, everything is good because He's doing everything. And when we have things "go wrong," in God's vocabulary, that's not even in there. To Him everything is going right. Why? Because everything's going to work out according to the will of God, so that when I do pray for the Lord's will to be done, I can know because this is a promise right from God, that all things work together for the good.
Romans 9:2 - That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
He says I have great grief. The term heaviness is the word LUPE for grief. The term sorrow is the same word used for birth pains, the labor pains that a woman goes through. So, in his heart he has great grief and unceasing birth pains.
We find that the unfolding of God's salvation plan is in no sense haphazard or random, but that every aspect of that plan is worked out in time. We can't separate time from the law, they are inextricably linked together. Galatians 4:4 declares
"4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons."
Today there are a number of people who are saying they know the timing of Christ's return. Whether God shall reveal the timing remains to be seen, but one thing is certain: Christ's return is imminent, and the time to make our calling and election sure is now.
Hebrews 2:3,4
"3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?"
2 Corinthians 6:2 "(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)"
Romans 9:27,28 "27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the [Greek: logos, proclamation of the gospel], and cut it short in righteousness: because a short [Greek: logos, proclamation of the gospel] will the Lord make upon the earth."
May the LORD open our spiritual eyes and ears as we search the scriptures, applying the principals that God Himself has laid out in His Word, the Bible. Praying that God, in His Mercy, might open our understanding. And that He might give us an earnest and ongoing desire to be obedient to that Word.
2 Timothy 3:16,17
Part 2. The Way.
That way is grace alone!
You see it in Romans 9:10-11 "And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
In the wilderness when God provides Moses with THE WAY for the children of Israel to be saved in Numbers 21:8-9 there was nothing asked of Israel but to look upon the provided way that would lift the curse.
Blessings.
I am sure we all have thought about that, but it is hard to answer. We have a loving and just God wanting all to come to Him and be saved because He gave His only Son for the redemption of sins. Some may say no since the only way to the Father is through the Son but what about those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus?
All of us have a conscience and the knowledge of good and evil, some get to a point of no return and God gives them over to a reprobate mind, Romans 1:28. Some go so far into evil that their conscience is seared with a hot iron, 1 Timothy 4:2, they do not know good from evil. I do not know if you have ever met someone like that, but you can see cold darkness in their eyes.
If we read Romans 1-16 it is not the hearers of the law but the doers of the law for they, have it written in their heart and their conscience bears witness. Our conscience records all we have ever done or thought. I believe this is about those who have heard the gospel and those who did not have a chance to hear it.
Many take the great white throne judgment as for the lost only, but I believe this is for those who are not in the first resurrection, Revelation 20:4-6. My understanding is the great white throne judgment goes with Daniel 12:2 John 5:28-29 Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15.
As it says in Revelation 20:15 all that was not found in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. So, to me, this is all the rest of the dead Revelation 20:5 if some were not found, some are found in the Book of Life. Some who lived before Jesus first came and some after Jesus came who never heard the gospel, their conscience bearing witness, will be found in the Book of Life. As we see in John 8:9 Acts 24:16 Romans 9:1 2 Corinthians 1:12 1 Timothy 3:9 Hebrews 13:18.
This is my understanding.
God bless,
RLW
Whether we seek in the Old or New Testament to those who were considered the followers of the true God we see evidence of a remnant that truly seek after Him; in other words not just confessors of Him but possessors of His Holy Spirit; His favor and His blessings. The fact that there are tares in with the wheat is discussed in churches that are true to proclaiming the Word; but conversely in today's typical Laodicean type churches it isn't discussed much if at all along with other hard doctrines. I have brought up the fact that God has His reasons for allowing wheat and tares to grow up together; although there certainly are some mysteries there on this side of heaven we can't comprehend fully as to why God is patient with vessels fit for destruction ( Romans 9:22).
Having briefly discussed the Apostles Peter and Paul I will go on to look at a case study; that of the Corinthians. We of course at face value tend to find this church as an embarrassing affront to the stalwart record of many other churches in the Epistles. We should remind ourselves that the Ephesian church had it all going seemingly right for themselves but they had developed what could have resulted in a fatal error in losing their first love according to Revelation 2. The Galatians had serious errors as well. The important fact is that at least in the short term the Corinthians really turned around in regard to their generosity ( 2 Corinthians 9) and obeyed Paul in regard to disciplining the man with the heinous sin (likely the one who was first mentioned in 1 Cor. 5:1). The idea of structured leadership and those in authority with integrity such as Paul; a TRUE Apostle results in the Body being built up. They had to get past the immaturity and being impressed with those bombastic individuals with convincing words that impressed those who were puffed up. ( 2 Corinthians 11:16-33). It doesn't seem this church accepted a false Christ; however.
"Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain." ( James 5:7).
There are many verses on the subject of patience or longsuffering both related to God and His approved servants who eventually enter into their reward. There is no doubt that God honors those who persevere but we also need to recall the situation of Lot who as 2 Peter 2:7 states ...And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked". We don't want to be too comfortable with evil around us and in particular become compromised to maintain a lifestyle of ease. As we see with Lot his choice to enter the well watered lowlands looked good when he split up from Abraham but in the end he escaped literally from the flames with the collateral damage of what happened to his wife.
Patience therefore with our own sin can't be tolerated. We also are to sound our voice as a trumpet as Jeremiah did and the other Prophets. God patiently endures vessels fitted for destruction ( Romans 9:22; read on to verse 23). Wickedness will not be tolerated in God's Kingdom when He reigns on earth after He comes again. We need to see that God is refining us through the wickedness of sinners opposed to us and generally in rebellion that we see all around us. We don't know who is going to come to Christ and also we should keep in mind John 15:2 and 2 Timothy 2:21 where the branches we possess as believers can be purged or other useless appendages cut out from sinful connections to our dead past that we hang on to.
God will complete the work He has started ( Philippians 1:6). He will see all His sheep who hear His voice eventually enter heaven and safe pasture; and all the goats will be judged.
These earthly trials will soon be over; let us encourage one another until He comes.
Pt. 5
God's Wisdom in Keeping Covenant Wtih Israel
Romans chapters 1-8 speaks to how God savs sinners. Chapters 9-11 speaks of the widsom of God in how He keeps His covenant with Israel
Romans 9:4-7
"Who are the Israelites, to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises. whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, in Isaac shall thy seed be called."
The issue as this chapter begins is whether or not God has failed to keep His covenant with Israel. Has the word and promise God made to Abraham failed? If the Gentiles are being saved by Israel's Messiah yet, as for the Jews, they have turned away from Jesus and rejected Him and the Way God in His infinite wisdom chose for them to be saved in Christ. If Gentiles are becoming children of Abraham by faith alone ( Gal. 3:7; Rom2 :24-29) and Jews rejecting Jesus are cast into outer darkness ( Mt. 8-11-12), then has the covenant God made with Abraham and reconfirmed over and over again in the OT amidst horrendous disobedience of the Israelites, fallen?
Paul affirms that" NO!", it has not failed. God does not reneg on His promises. God's way of staying faithful to His covenant with Israel while saving the Gentiles is so counterintuitive and so extraordinary that at the end of chapter 11, Paul breaks out in his doxology concerning the unfathomable wisdom of God.
Like the way of saving Gentiles through Christ, God's way keeping and fulfilling the covenant with Israel is infinitely wise, too. The end of chapter 11 sums up God's wisdom in both saving Gentiles and in keeping the covenant with Israel.
Continue to Pt. 6
Pt. 3
God's love is glorified in this eternal covenant within the Godhead. Out of His internal love withing the Persons of the Godhead, God's amazing love is brought forth in creating all beings in order to bring his love to the elect angels and the elect saints in history. He loves all that He has made, but His love is especially set forth in these two groups of beings, one eternally sinless and the other sinless but saved by grace through the Son, Jesus Christ. I believe that when we all get to heaven and the last judgement has occurred, the saints will all the more realize the perfection of God and His eternal plan in creating the church to be gloried in. Romans 9:21-24. Eph 1:6 shows us that the apex of the glory of God is the glory of His grace in the church. Without the redeemed saints from sin, death, and the devil, the fullness of God's glory cannot be manifested. His glory would be imperfect. So, this is why allowing for sin to emerge in Satan and the angels that followed him and in the Garden of Eden where Adam and Even were able to fall into sin when Satan led them to do so God is ordaining the way for his total glorification which is includes the redeemed saints in Christ Jesus. So, here God is the Victor, now and forever, even in the fall of man and angels.
I don't believe that Satan knew what God's eternal plan and covenant was (which was made before creation within the Godhead only). God did not reveal all of His plan or will to the angels. That is why Scripture says that angels long to look into the salvation of mankind to understand that was preached in the Gospel in 1 Peter 1:12. In the consummation of all things, both the saints and the elect angels will finally be able to understand together the fullness of God's eternal covenant and plan for creation and together we will glorify God all the more with our praise and worship.
Satan truly thought he won out against God. But he is always proved wrong in all of his actions.
The first Adam, his disobedience brought sin and death into the world, Romans 5:12-19. The last Adam by obedience to God brought forgiveness and life, the resurrection from the dead, 1 Corinthians 15:21-22.
Adam and Eve were naked and were not ashamed, their hearts were uncorrupted and free from sin. After they ate the forbidden fruit their eyes were opened, their consciences were opened to the knowledge of good and evil, and sin replaced the purity they had. They had a sense of fear and disgrace due to their disobedience.
The shame they now felt was due to the sinful nature that entered them and now they no longer perfectly perceived things, their view of their nakedness should be covered. Nakedness was not a sin, but a fallen perception of nakedness brought shame and sorrow they now felt.
As God covered Adam and Eve with coats of skins to cover their shame/nakedness. Our nakedness of shame can be covered with the garment Isaiah 61:10 given by Jesus. We in Jesus shall not be found naked, but clothed, with the garment of Christ's righteousness, our sins covered and cleansed by the blood of Jesus that makes it spotless and white as long as we continue in faith and overcome.
Concerning those that do not die in the Lord, that do not watch, and keep their garments will walk naked, their sins will be open to being seen, Revelation 16:15 1 Timothy 4:1-2 Revelation 20:15.
Every human being, whether they're saved or unsaved, and regardless of their culture, ethnicity, or background, has a conscience, Romans 2:14-15. Inside this conscience is the battle between the flesh and the Spirit Romans 9:1 we can repent and be covered, if not we will be naked and found guilty. We cannot hide what is in our conscience, it records every good and evil we have ever done or thought. I feel this is where we are naked or clothed. Romans 4:6-8 2 Corinthians 1:12 1 Timothy 1:19 Hebrews 9:9 Hebrews 13:18 1 Peter 3:21.
God bless,
RLW
Or of course the reverse logic is why would God save anyone; we were all astray as Isaiah states; we were all children of wrath previous to salvation. Or perhaps I could state this God will not choose anyone to enter heaven who isn't covered by the blood; or wants to be there in order to have a pleasurable place to sin; or self rule or any other nonesense. Serving the Lord doesn't come naturally; the outer actions can happen but not the heart transformed to that of Christ who came not to be served but serve and of course greater love is this that a man dies for his friend.
Your second question of course can't be helped but to be sensed by me as another trap of the same venue. I don't wish to make or break fellowship because of quibbling these issues. I have to appeal to Deut. 29:29 there are hidden things of God.
Whatever our theological differences in the end a set number are in heaven and hell. It's your prerogative to think what you will of me; read the Word.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. S
He is simply saying mankind cannot will or make progress ( runneth: (trekh'-o Strong's/Bible Hub) to gain heaven. It is only through God's mercy for those who ask for it. you didn't answer my question: what happens to those who are not of the elect, those not chosen by God to be saved? It seems to me God is just disposing of them.
Ephesians 1:3-7 Is addressed to the to the church in Ephesus (us) and the Church of God was predestined to be established during Christ's ministry on earth NOT individuals.
Ephesians 2:1-10 is telling simply telling us that it is the grace and mercy of God through Jesus' death and resurrection the we can be born again.
Please show me through the actually wording of these verses how they interpret different then what I have shown. God Bless:)
What a great analogy! The inheritance is what has been predetermined for those who receive Christ. For those who reject Him, their fate has also been predetermined. It is man who chooses to receive or reject the things of God. Romans 9:11 (which you have shared) is a great verse. Thanks for that one. It says (For the children being not yet born). So, they hadn't even been born yet. But secondly, we notice what it says: Neither having done any good or evil.
And then thirdly, the purpose: The reason why God made His choice between Jacob and Esau, before they were born (without them having done good or evil), it is so that the purpose of God could be according to election (His choice), and it might stand, not of works, but of the one who calls;
So, it didn't have anything to do with Jacob and Esau as to who they were, what kind of people they were, whether they were good or evil, it had nothing to do with works or with man. It had to do with God's choice.
Blessings to you also!
That was an enlightening lesson on the topic of predestination.
I must admit, I didn't quite have that right
I have heard a teaching similar to that several years ago.
They used the scenario of a city bus that took the same route every day. It was predestined.
All you had to do is get on that bus.
It was your choice.
It is a free ride, you can't pay for it.
It is the "WAY" to point B from point A.
It is the WAY. God's way!
"THE WAY" is what is elected by God!
Paralleling with Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
IT'S ONLY SAVED PEOPLE GETTING ON THAT BUS! and at the end of the ride is an inheritance.
God bless you.
Let's have a look at a famous part of the Bible that is often misunderstood.
Romans 9:11-16,
11For the children (Jacob and Esau) being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
OK, so what was the reason God loved Jacob and hated Esau before they were even born?
Was it that Esau was going to be hairy and red so God didn't like his appearance?
Was it that Jacob was going to be maybe handsome so God liked him?
Some will answer saying that we don't know what God had in mind. Don't we really?
If we look at the lives of both what do we see? We see that Jacob loved to grab God's promise to Abraham, and we also see that Esau literally rejected and humiliated that promise considering that promise to be less valuable than a dish of soup. What a humiliation! Similarly Judas thought that Jesus, the Son of God, deserved just 30 pieces of silver. So I ask again. What did God know beforehand about those two so He loved Jacob but hated Esau? The answer is obvious, isn't it? Next question. On what God based His decision to select beforehand Jacob instead of Esau. Not on what He arbitrarily decided but on how those two would respond to His call. Maybe God did something supernatural to make Jacob respond and Esau reject Him? Why would He do that?
Similarly God's selection of each one of us is due to our response to His love which He showed to us by sacrificing His Son. There is no other possible reason
Yes, The whole Word of God is a PROPHECY of the Kingdom of GOD, including the book of Genesis; as you have said.
Genesis 1:26-27
27 So GOD created man in His own image, in the image of GOD created He him; male and female created He them.
28 And GOD blessed them, and GOD said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it
To frutify, and multiply, and to replenish th earth, GOD created the woman, by allegory the true Church of the Lord.
GOD sent JESUS and JESUS came in the fourth Day-the Greater Light- around 4000 yers after Adam- John 5:17. Around 27/30AD, i.e. in the beginning of the fifth Day, around 2000 years ago, JESUS said to the Jews: John 2:19 and 21: ->19 Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
21 But he spake of the temple of His body. (what our Lord JESUS said and revealed, physically He would resurrect in the third day (a day of 24 hours, of course); but spiritually, our Lord was speaking of his body the Church, it will rise up now in the 3rd Day, a Day of 1000 years, after have bear fruit, multiplied itself for 2000 years, and will replenish the earth with the resurrection of multitudes according 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17:
15 For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel(Michael- Daniel 12:1-3), and with the trump of GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the believers in Christ JESUS)
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the cloud(the same cloud in Acts 1:9-11,take a look), to meet the Lord in the air(on high, the 3rd heaven- Micah 4:1-8 combined with 2Corinthians 12:2-4 and Luke 20:35-36, among other biblical references, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
GOD BLESS
Isaiah 28:21 and 10:23; Romans 9:28 and 8:18-25
"Freewill" relative to salvation is not taught in the Bible. God does all the work in accordance with His Will, not our will.
Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Concerning 'election' & salvation, there is obviously a clear connection, but if Israel was God's Elect, then all Israel should have been saved (whether the election of God for selecting Israel as His people: Romans 9:11,12; or, said of Israel herself: Isaiah 45:4; or, even of the Church: Colossians 3:12). We know that when the Church is spoken of as God's Elect, then those comprising His Church must all be saved through His Son's Blood & Faith. But of Israel, they are God's Elect by position, yet still requiring Faith & Obedience to God's Word to be heirs of salvation through their coming Redeemer. If they disobey God, their election is of no use at all ( Romans 9:6.7), because even though "in Isaac shall thy seed be called" (election), yet of the elect, they must also "attain righteousness, which is of faith" ( Romans 9:30-33).
And so we conclude here, since your example of Numbers 15:32-26 being "a statement by God denouncing a gospel that includes any work whatsoever on our part", is too far removed from my understanding of this passage, indeed the whole Word itself. You see a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath that comes to us as a warning to not introduce works into the Gospel. I see simply a man who violated the Commandment and had to face God's Judgement as a result - nothing to do with our works, rather, of his and our Disobedience to God. Please, I know you are digging into the Scriptures to find the gold therein, which is commendable, but we all need to make sure that what we find & interpret as a precious find, is not just iron pyrite. Thank you for your time David - consider my input closed here. GBU.
The short answer to your question is God did not pay for the sins of everyone.
He paid only for the sins of those whom He chose to save. God calls these the Elect of God.
They are not elect because of any inherent goodness or worthiness within them as we read in Romans 3:10-18 and similar passages. They are not elect because they are more likely to respond to the Gospel than any one else. All mankind is DEAD in trespasses and sins. Eph 2:1.
God works in the Heart of those whom He is saving to CAUSE them to respond. And He gives them a New Heart, a New Resurrected Soul. This is becoming Born Again. It is a true MIRACLE of God. It is all the MERCY of God as He does 100% of the work to save His Elect and they enter into His Rest.
Romans 9:15,16
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Ezekiel 36:24-27
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A NEW HEART also will I give you, and a NEW SPIRIT will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
So what must we do to be saved? The answer is: We can do nothing! But we can cry to God for mercy as He commands us to do. Like Publican: " Lord have mercy upon me a sinner", in the very Real Hope that God might save us.
Joel 2:12-14
14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?