Calvinism is ruining my life ..... Please pray for me, I am not that strong!! Constant debating and discord is really wearing on me, I have no joy, no fire, I am just always waiting for the other shoe to drop.... I pray but I feel like I hit a wall I need help....
Thank you Richard!! Valley's are hard, but I know God is Good!!! I love Him... This is a season of tribulation. I just pray for peace on my heart and soul, I do not like reacting in the flesh! So any prayers are welcomed with much Joy!!! God bless Richard P.
Not sure if I stated this previously but the end is near. Many of the persuasion you mention don't believe there is a Rapture at least before the Tribulation; most think the Second Coming is the end of the Millennium as it is taken symbolically as the church age.
I am not sure what He has revealed to you; but if you are anything like me the burden of the coming Tribulation is overwhelming.
I am convinced God is well into judging His church; who in the most part unfortunately look ready to embrace the coming Antichrist. I can say this with confidence as Revelation 13 makes it clear that ALL those whose names are NOT written in the book of life will worship the Beast. In that light of course predestination is very clear. That may disturb you but I doubt anyone who has bugged you is willing to acknowledge that truth. For now at least the gates of hell will not prevail against the church at least the true remnant; but Daniel states the saints WILL be overcome in the soon to come judgments on the earth.
IF He has called and equipped you to warn what is to come there will be no doubt. As Jeremiah said when he tried to say nothing His Word was like fire in his bones.
I should add that some Lutherans in particular have come very close to "transubstantiation" in regard to the communion setting. Much imagery as well seems to have come down from the Catholic church in the stained glass; etc. Infant baptism is the main thing which is held by most Reformed camps and is in error and doesn't conform to the public confession of one being dead; buried and resurrected in Christ. Children also are as Psalm 8:2 states praising God and also as other verses show too young to understand sin and hence also saved by grace. No ritual is going to change that; it could be argued their knowledge of the faith would heap greater condemnation; but since the son can't be held accountable for the father's sin and vice versa to hold some sort of expectation or family blessing in that situation is absurd. At best it reminds parents that they are in a vow to God as Joshua stated "as for me and my house we will worship the Lord." To have some sway at least externally parents need to raise a child in the fear and admonition of the Lord as well as not being hypocrites.
Hi Richard H Priday: I hope you will not mind a correction to the scripture in Joshua 24:15 that you quoted:: As for me and my house we will serve the LORD. somewhat of a difference. God Bless :)
Addendum: I feel led to say keep praying as well; it seems almost all denominations are at a cripplingly low level of such necessary spiritual activity today. Look for those who are open to prayer and also look for opportunities to pray for others.
That solves a lot of other issues that tend to come from myopic spiritual eyes which need to focus on above and have a vision; lest the people perish.
Dead religion is a result of placing anything above the Word of God. As to spiritual gifts; you also will likely be in a conundrum with many of the reformed or Orthodox circles who tend to hold to the 5 points of Calvinism. They actually had some vote on the subject in one of those denominations in the 1970s or so and couldn't come to a consensus. Sadly there are so many aberrant ministries displaying either obvious fraud or under demonic influence where many may claim to speak in tongues or have some prophetic statement that the few who may have a genuine insight are often lost in the flood of falsehood.
It is dangerous to make a blanket statement about cessation of gifts because it is an attempt to put God in a box that we can understand. As to tongues; for instance it is clear from those familiar with the occult that demonic tongues exist; so clearly God can counter it with angelic ones if He so chooses. I have had a few dreams and or words of knowledge from others that were clearly from the Lord. Such things tend to be rare. All these so called specific predictions for the Rapture; for instance clearly go against scripture. But as you probably know the Reformed churches tend to be what is called "Post Millennial" or Amillennial; and they disregard numerous scriptures about the 1000 year reign of Christ found not only in Revelation but Isaiah and other O.T. texts. This is another attempt to symbolize what they consider to be a past event rather than acknowledgment that the Old Covenant on promises of land; etc still could be in conjunction with the New; although of course some things are unique to the Church Age. Again; that gets into another subject; covenant theology vs dispensations which I argue are both clearly indicated in scripture.
Of course for us as individuals; we need to focus on holiness which comes from a contrite spirit ( Psalm 51) and certainly not exclusive of scripture knowledge but also being led by the Spirit.
The scriptures are our ultimate authority; and as you are probably aware the "Arminian" or free will camp as well as Calvanists have proof texts that are used to pidgeonhole a given doctrine into scripture whether it fits or only partially applies; along with avoiding ones that clearly contradict their hypothesis.
I would submit that there is evidence for both camps in the Word. Other verses may apply to a nation as opposed to individuals in regard to predestination; for instance. I would also say that when taken to an extreme or "hypercalvinism" and repentance isn't preached as a necessary element for salvation when witnessing red flags go off. Calvin; and in fact Luther as a person weren't exactly displaying Godly character; for instance when Silvanus was martyred; or when clearly anti Semitic statements were repeated that Martin Luther said when Hitler came to power. Calvin basically wanted to rule as a king or worldly lord. Also marriage in many cases has been reduced to a contract rather than a covenant which makes people excuse divorce as well as remarriage; and a legalistic framework of the "Westminster Divines" along with endless catechism studies which can run one's faith dry in the process. To be fair the free will camp has some problems in regard to expectations that without God granting repentance as the book of Acts and other verses suggest that anyone can freely come to God. Our decisions are prompted by stirring of the Spirit of God.
In reality; there is no contradiction that man can turn to the Lord and God in His foreknowledge is aware of it; and also predestines it. God is fair ultimately; and whatever number is saved or lost is already established. As Deut. 29:29 suggests WE don't know it however. You know them by their fruits ( Matt. 7:16). One can be a 5 point Calvanist and lost (albeit in the most narrow way possible to hell).
Hi Richard: I'm not sure I understand, do you accept the teaching that God predestinated specific souls some for heaven and some for hell and mankind has no free will to be born again or not. That the ones he has predestined to heaven He will draw to him and will therefore ask to be saved and the others will go to hell? So how does a great and loving God send people He allowed to be born, have no choice but to go to hell? God Bless :)
I would say that rather than arguing that concept that I would say even taking into account choices; decisions; etc in the end it is foreknown who would be saved and who wouldn't have been. Or one could say our choices also are predestined as God is the one who gives us a mind and options available; and clearly there are things limited to this life. The passions of this world and flesh and the devil; or more simply for "self" won't be applicable in the next life; for those in hell of course there is nothing left to choose for pleasure; and in heaven we will for now be souls that are in His presence; and later with new bodies that will be perfectly suited for heaven and where we will serve the Lord for all eternity.
There is the argument that those who are "Arminian" make which I also accept; namely that it is the PLAN of salvation that is predestined which is certainly true; whether or not we ascribe it to the level of an individual. God's PLAN is that only through the Son is one saved; and we need His atonement through His substitutionary death to bring us to life. There are many cults and religions that mention Christ but not as God; but a great "Prophet" usually or teacher; or "ascended master". It takes supernatural insight to realize He is God in the flesh or part of the Godhead bodily. Not believing He is who He says He is of course involves deliberate rejection of the truth and the authority of God's Word despite the history; eyewitnesses; and changed lives we see around us. Perhaps more damaging or damning are those who make claims to believe but don't truly have a root in Him and fall away; these individuals ignore John 14:15 about keeping His commandments if we love Him.
We again need to see that God called out from other nations those who would be the Patriarchs of Israel; such as with Abraham and Moses. God knows who will respond and sends either missionaries or dreams and visions for these people.
Hi Richard: I appreciate your comment and, of course, God knows the outcome of all of this. I do believe that predestination in scripture is referring to the Church Of God that Jesus founded during His ministry so that no other church can claim to be her as it would need to follow the teachings in the scripture exactly as Christ said She would be. That certainly leaves out the Catholic Church and many others. I believe the true Church Of God is all the true saints God has and will have at the rapture at which time we will all be in unity. But you didn't answer my questions. I will list them below and can you give me just a straight forward answer? A yes or no and then why you believe this way:
!)Do you believe God chooses some souls before they are born to be the elect destine for heaven and those who are not the elect destine for Hell?
2) If souls are chosen before birth to go one place or the other, why would a greatly loving God create souls that He has already deemed not of the elect to end up in hell?
Hello Momsage. If I might throw in my understanding to your first question to Richard (i.e."Do you believe God chooses some souls before they are born to be the elect destined for heaven and those who are not the elect destined for Hell?"). I believe that Romans 8:29,30 answers this:
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
To loosely transliterate/expand: God KNOWS all things beforehand, including those who would come to Him in faith through His Son (heaven bound) & those who would refuse Him (hell bound).
In His Foreknowledge, he predestined those (in verse 30) to increasingly bear the Image of His Son, thereby Jesus being truly the firstborn of God's children (firstborn, both as a forerunner & Chief Cornerstone of His Church ( Hebrews 12:23; Ephesians 2:20), as well as being the firstborn where both Deity & Humanity coexist together ( 1 Timothy 3:16; 1 Corinthians 3:16).
In fulfilment of His Predestination Plan to one day have those of His creation to bear His Son's Image & be filled with His Spirit, God, IN HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE, called (those He chose) to hear & receive the Gospel message. And these very ones who received the Word with all readiness of mind ( Acts 17:11) & joy, God justified ('declared as righteous', having our slates cleaned, as it were). And to those He justified, he glorified (Gk. edoxasen: 'God brings Christians to a heavenly dignity and condition').
Since, we as believers evangelising with the Gospel, have no idea of those who will be saved & those who will not (known to God alone), the Gospel seeds are scattered/sown that all might hear, particularly those to whom the Spirit leads us to. Sadly, most will refuse, but we can rest assured that all known of God will be saved - none lost.
My discussions with Jesse are whether the KJB is Holy Ghost inspired (my belief) or if it is not (his belief) not Calvinism, unless I sent an answer, about predestination, to him by mistake.
I would like to say: that you and I are brother and sister in the Lord. I believe you and I both love the Lord dearly and our lives belong to Him. I have said this because I feel it is time to end our discussions on this topic. I don't want to be accused of running a topic into the ground and I think we have said all that can be said for ourselves and others. Please know that I am not angry, hurt, annoyed or anything else. I love you in the Lord, Chris. God Bless :)
Dear Momsage. Thank you for your kind sentiments expressed here. I know that you, and so many others here, love the Lord with all their hearts & your desire is to bring forward your understanding from the Bible, and where there is a difference of opinion, then a good, hearty & loving discussion can ensue. I don't believe that a topic being discussed at great length as 'being run into the ground', since a discussion is as good as those who are prepared to engage in it & want to keep it going. If exchanges cease, then the topic ends, and as often is the case, without agreement, whether in full or part.
Concerning the inspiration of the KJB translation, I believe that brother Jesse has explained it very well, in that inspiration came in the original writings, when holy men of God & prophets had direct interactions with the LORD, or as in the case of Genesis, where Moses was so directed to pen those words or to access other writings from those preceding him, giving us the history. What we have now in our modern translations (including the KJB), is wholly dependent on the texts that they have derived from & the quality of the translators. Does this mean that those translators of the NIV, NASB, etc. were not inspired or diligent in their work? Or rather, their source material, though older, may not necessarily be the more reliable (for they even differ between each other, depending on which one is used or used in combination with the others).
Just as an example concerning the translators themselves: take 1 Timothy 3:1 or Titus 1:7, focussing on the word 'bishop'. Today, we envision a bishop as a senior member of a clergy, maybe in charge of a diocese & one who confers 'holy' orders to his parishes. As well, he robes himself in a long embroidered gown with a mitre on his head. Do you feel that Paul when writing those words in his letters pictured such an official person in the Church, so admirably dressed to lead Christ's Church? Onto Page 2.
Likewise, did Timothy & Titus also understand it in that way? Rather, we have a large group of translators (KJB), in the 17th Century AD, unable to render any other meaning to the Gk, episkopos (which is a superintendent, an overseer, an elder), simply because 'episkopos' was a bishop in the church of that day, but for us in the evangelical community, that is not how we should read it, as it gives us an incorrect understanding. Many of the recent translations change it to 'overseer' - I'm unsure whether any of them use 'elder'.
Now when we look at Acts 14:23 for example, the Gk, word for 'elder' is 'presbuteros', from which we get 'presbytery' (a body of Church elders & ministers). Yet, the KJB translators, being faithful to the Greek had to differentiate between the two (episkopos & presbuteros), which would have been meaningful to those of their day & Church structure, but forces us to re-word those passages to fit our present evangelical Church structure. Were the KJB translators or other modern translators wrong in what they've understood & translated? I don't believe so, they just did what they understood & from the material they had before them. So then back to the old question: how then do we decide which translation is the most accurate & inspired? Is it seen from the original manuscripts/original writings, or just believing that the KJB can be the only one from God for us today? For me, I only read & study from the KJB: it's the one I grew up with, memorized from & love. However, since it didn't come to us in English/modern English, I am constantly on guard to ensure that I am reading the Scriptures as originally given, without the culture & era of the translators impeding on my understanding. Yes, they were inspired to translate, but did so within the limitations of their time & with the understanding that no translation from one language to another can ever be perfect (differences in grammar, syntax, nuances, etc. always apply). Onto Page 2.
If I might relate two examples (shared here a long while ago) with just word-for-word difficulties. A language translator missionary (I personally know her) doing her work amongst a tribal group in Papua New Guinea, came across Isaiah 53:6 as part of her work: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all". She couldn't get a word for 'sheep' in her target language, simply because they knew nothing of sheep/never seen one. Her dilemma: should she be faithful to the Word and use sheep, maybe giving them some type of picture & their habits to help them, or should she substitute the word for another. If she described a sheep to those with her now, others in later years reading the Bible, may not have the same benefit of her present teaching/translation. So she changed the word to 'pig' ('all we like pigs have gone astray'). Pigs they knew, for they herded them & seen them in the wild, with their propensity to wander off if left unwatched.
A personal example, when sharing from the Word in Pakistan with a Church group. Not having a good grip on Urdu (Pakistan's national language), I used a translator & as is always good practise, to go through the message with him so that he too can be prepared. I referred to 1 John 4:10, "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins". 'Propitiation' is a big word even for English-speakers, so asked my translator for the Urdu word for it & how he understood it. He gave the word as 'kaffara', which simply means 'atonement'. I asked, "was that all it meant to him (& by extension to all Christians in Pakistan)?" He replied, "Yes, that is how we all read that verse", because they have no word for 'propitiation' = to appease, or satisfy God's Anger. Obviously, I had to explain further to both him & the congregation, its meaning.
How sad, that from a translation, whether the KJB or RSV (as Urdu Bibles are taken from), believers are missing out on the richness of certain words. And to reiterate, this will always happen, for that is the nature of languages when translated (unless copious notes are also included to further explain or expand).
Sorry Momsage to hit you with such a long response, even though you probably were not looking for one from me. But thought to share in some detail, to show that what brother Jesse is meticulously reading & bringing out for us from the original Greek, should not only be helpful to us in our reading & study, but also to confirm that no translation (even our beloved KJB) can be a perfect rendering of the original. It's one of the best, though not perfect.
Now to Calvinism! No, I won't burden you with that also, but just to say, there are aspects of Calvin's beliefs (otherwise, summarized in those 5 points (five articles of faith: TULIP) accepted by the Synod of Dort in 1618 AD as being the "Rule of Faith" rather than accepting the presentation by the Arminians); that some aspects of Calvin's beliefs are worthy of consideration & acceptance, thereby not throwing out 'baby with the bath water'. Again, it all boils down to, how we read & understand the Scriptures. Thanks for your concern & input on these matters - they are read diligently. Every blessing Momsage.
Hi Chris: Thank you for this response. I appreciate the time and thought that went into it. Your friend who changed the word sheep to pig, I'm sure did the best she thought she could but then didn't she have to do that when the bible talks about Jesus being a sacrificial Lamb? Anyway, we can continue these discussions but since my answer will always be "every jot and tittle in the KJB is written by God." Ephisians 1:1-23 This chapter is talking to the Church as being predestined. Anyway, it's late so we can talk some more tomorrow.
Thanks Momsage for going through my long reply to you; and bringing up "Jesus being a sacrificial Lamb" may or may not have worked with that missionary, since both lamb & sheep are of the same breed & the tribe may have been none the wiser as a result. But in any case, you are very clear in your belief that "every jot and tittle in the KJB (in English) is written by God", so I suppose there can't be anything written to distract or detract you from it.
Ephesians 1: it is interesting to note, that wherever 'predestination' is referred to here ( Ephesians 1:5, 11) & also in Romans 8:29, the word is used not directly towards salvation as a destiny, but to the believer's adoption into God's family, to being God's Praise & Glory, & to be conformed to Christ's Image. So I can see that 'salvation' is implied in these phrases, for how else can believers achieve God's Purposes for them unless they are first saved? Yet it is believed by some that God has predestined each person to receive salvation or be rejected, however we must consider His Predestining Work (in the verses cited above) as to what He predestines believers for, rather than Him arbitrarily consigning some & not others towards salvation. For this reason, I quoted to you recently from Romans 8:29,30, emphasizing that God predestines His children towards salvation & conformation to His Son according to what He already knows about them (& all people) - or else God isn't as omniscient as first understood. And brother S. Spencer referred to these verses as well.
If we are to believe that God is indeed truly Omniscient, then He must already know who will come into the World & what their state in life will be & how they will answer His Gospel, should they come under its sound. So I do agree with you, that God does not accept or reject sinners arbitrarily, for then His Love for all people is brought into serious question - indeed the essence of the Gospel is misunderstood & weakened to the 'n(th) degree'.
Hi Chris: All I can say is, of course, God already knows who will be in paradise with Him and who will not be because of their free will to choose Christ or not. My issue is with the cruel teachings of Calvinism. God Bless :)
Hello Momsage, I do agree, I never even heard of Calvinism until about 5 years ago we went to a baptist Church (Grace gospel, i now know why Grace) and went to the Pastors house for Bible study and fellowship after and he came right out and said they were Calvinist. I picked up on that and thought, what is that? So I started digging and have been propelled into study every verse in my KJB giving my own Scriptural references and Noah Webster 1828 definitions of tough words throughout my entire Bible, highlighting every single ALL and IF and WILL... To me the only thing good about the whole draining situation is it has made me.study more... But when I have someone I love constantly wanting to debate and prove to me that Calvinism is correct it further makes me dig in my heals to hold to what I know and see Scripture says.... GOD bless... Amanda...
Romans 9:22 seems to indicate yes to the question. I don't want to be trapped with your anger in answering such a question; to be quite frank. We could of course ask the same question about Satan; but we must remember that he was in heaven and as a verse in Job states all the sons of glory saw the creation so there wasn't anything hidden as there is with man. As for God predestining him to fall it is the same issue though. The bottom line is scripture; as you rightly suggest all of it to determine a clearer perception of truth. I am not ignorant if you have read my posts on the fact that God desires the death of no man and hell was meant for Satan and his angels. Again; you could argue that God predestined these things because of the rebellion and sin of man; no one is in hell who isn't aware to some degree of sin; and that means that I don't hold to some Calvanist views that children need baptism or God would send anyone to hell; again backed by scriptures I have referenced before.
Or of course the reverse logic is why would God save anyone; we were all astray as Isaiah states; we were all children of wrath previous to salvation. Or perhaps I could state this God will not choose anyone to enter heaven who isn't covered by the blood; or wants to be there in order to have a pleasurable place to sin; or self rule or any other nonesense. Serving the Lord doesn't come naturally; the outer actions can happen but not the heart transformed to that of Christ who came not to be served but serve and of course greater love is this that a man dies for his friend.
Your second question of course can't be helped but to be sensed by me as another trap of the same venue. I don't wish to make or break fellowship because of quibbling these issues. I have to appeal to Deut. 29:29 there are hidden things of God.
Whatever our theological differences in the end a set number are in heaven and hell. It's your prerogative to think what you will of me; read the Word.
I was thinking some of the same things you posted to Momsage.
I agree that Romans 9 is a difficult passage to accept for most of us. And, like you mentioned, God could have, in his holiness, purity, sinlessness and justice willed that NO ONE would be saved and all sinners would be judged to the lake of fire as He has determined for Satan and the angels that sinned with him. But we know that His decision to save a selected people for salvation to live forever in His presence, forgiven of all their sins and made righteous through His Son. Just as some question how a loving, merciful God could predestine some and leave others to be condemned, we could say "How can a perfectly sinless, holy, pure, and just God forgive anyone's sins and gift them with salvation."
Or we can say, "If God is loving and merciful then He should save every person to be fair and just." But we know that that is not true.
The answers to these queries are deeply rooted in God's perfect wisdom, will, purpose, and that His ways are higher than ours, His thoughts are not our thoughts, as Isaiah said. We can, however, read what Romans 9 says and believe that God actually selected Abel over Cain, Shem's lineage over Ham's, Abraham over his brothers, Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Esau, Joseph over his other brothers, Moses over other Levites, to be set apart for His purpose and by His grace given favor, mercy, and blessing.
I believe that if God has indeed predestined some to be saved without any merit on their part and leaves the rest of humanity to continue in sin and be condemned to the lake of fire, then that is His sovereign choice to do so. It does not diminish His love or mercy at all, nor is He unfair. He is the one who decides what is good, morally right, and just. We are not to question His ways, but believe that He is right in all of His ways, choices, and actions.
It is hard at times to submit our thoughts, desires, and emotions to God when He does not choose all.
I am going to try to go to a more local but charismatic prayer group in an international church tomorrow night. Pray for wisdom and discernment.
As to this subject the intended recipient of it is very likely to react as I suggested since I've seen that sort of thing before; if not with her others. I don't want to sound presumptuous or predict reactions so pray about that also. Nonetheless these type things have proven to be dead ends as to discussion when emotions take over and we can't try to be Bereans or comprehend the ways of God. Again; many who would say they believe in the TULIP concepts can be arrogant. In answering these questions scripturally I am afraid the idea is that I have to be bigoted to conceive of God this way. I have appealed to even Judas Iscariot clearly predicted to be the son of perdition (first one then Antichrist being next). Jesus gave him the sop which was the highly sought after symbol of esteem for a friend; as well as the fact that the Psalms showed how a trusted friend would betray the Messiah. Truth be told our niceness can't save the nicest person in the world to the meanest without the Lord intervening and working on men's hearts.
However this works out; fundamentally man only understands how vile his state is by seeing the holiness of God. When the Spirit moves on a man there is the fear of the Lord and the world by and large resists. It should be clear the lack of persecution at least in most mega churches as well as others is due to the fact that somehow the Spirit is being quenched; either with dumbed down doctrines; a lack of emphasis on repentance and a lack of submission love and obedience of His commandments which is needed to be a true disciple of Christ. Such Spirit filled servants are feared and avoided because the conviction level is high and the enemy is threatened. Unless we know we are at war we become politically correct in regard to Satan; not treating him as an enemy we fight ( Ephesians 6)
Richard, I will pray for your involvement in the prayer group. May God make it fruitful to all who need prayer.
As to this discussion. My emotional side tends to resist that God only saves those who He draws to Jesus, having elected them to salvation in His Son. But as I have been studying the doctrine of the depravity of mankind, I know that no one can turn to God without His drawing us by grace. My rational side is fine with what Romans 9 says, since I know that God is far more holy than we tend to think and if we knew how far apart He is in His holiness from our sinfulness, we would marvel that He has selected those who are to be vessels of His mercy, though they are all children of wrath prior to His work of grace in all He chooses. And I believe that Romans 9 does speak to this in that when the vessels of His mercy truly discover the great work He has done in them and that without it they would be like those who remain vessels of His wrath, we will praise Him, glorify Him, and thank Him endlessly.
I look forward to more discussions on the aspects of Calvinism (which is Augustinianism in many ways) as doing so gives us all better clarity on what the Scriptures actually teach on the topics I mentioned to Chris. I am not ready to dive into the depravity doctrine yet. I want to finish up the posts on the attributes of God. My next one is that He is transcendent. Probably will post on that tomorrow if I have time.
The cabinets are going into our kitchen this week so I have to "supervise" so that both the worker and I are thinking the same as to the layout. Also, the electricians come tomorrow to install the can lighting and connect outlets in the wired boxes.
And on top of all this, our little grandbaby takes up a lot of time as Mom is struggling some to keep up with the care. Grandpa and I spend a lot of time with her between feedings and naps.
Blessings to you Richard. Appreciate your input here and the way we can discuss serious matters between us freely
Hello Dear Sister , if you don't mind , may I ask you a question ? You don't have to answer me , I shan't be offended if you choose not to . What do you believe is the ultimate fate of all those people who never got the opportunity ( for whatever reason ) to ever hear one word about God or Jesus ? What happens to their souls ?
Hi Jaz: I'm not sure if you were asking Jesusgirl87 this question or me. If it was me then, I don't mind you're asking me at all. I look forward to these discussions.
My thought in answering you is that I felt it not quit right for us to assume by the time God calls His Bride home that there will be anyone who hasn't, in some way, come to know the truth of salvation, especially with the internet and the many social media platforms available. Today the internet is pretty much considered a necessity more then a play thing and I know there are entities that believe everyone should have it, even for free and are trying to accomplish this.
But, as I was saying this is something we must trust God for, that His loving spirit is going to reach them all. We just must do the best we can to reach as many as we can.
I know there is a lot of worldliness and evil on the internet but there are a lot of true Christians who are on there also who preach the truth. I'm not promoting it, just saying it is there and has a tremendous potential for outreach. But Gid could just speak to a heart and draw them to Him without any intervention from anyone or anything. I believe that is what Jesusgirl87 is saying because it is our our conscieous that calls us to God. Jesusgirl87 please pardon me if I have misunderstood you. Bless :)
Hi Dear Sister and thank you for your reply to me . I think maybe I didn't make myself clear so I apologise for that , I shall try again if I may .
If you believe that after a person dies , they either go to heaven or to hell , where do you think that all those people who never got the chance to hear about God or Jesus go after they have died ? There must be millions of them , there was a time , a very long time , when TV , phones , internet and even printing didn't exist . So what happens to all of those people , that God created , who never got the opportunity to get to know Him through no fault of their own ?
If anyone else would like to give me an answer to this question I would be pleased to hear their answer .
I'm not trying to be contentious I promise , I'm honestly interested to hear what people believe and especially why they believe what they believe . Thank you .
We all have inside us, a sinful nature from the first Adam, we also have a conscience, the knowledge of good and evil, and the knowledge of God. We first see this when Adam and Eve hid themselves because they were naked. We see some go so far into the darkness that their conscience can be seared, the conscience no longer tells them good from evil, 1 Timothy 4:2. There is a point where God turns them over to a reprobate mind, Romans 1:28-32.
I believe there will be those who enter eternity who have never heard the gospel, and those who lived before Jesus first came because we have a loving and just God.
Romans 2:11-16 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
My understanding is this will happen at the great white throne judgment, Revelation 20:11-15, in this it says, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire". If some were not found in the Book of Life means some were found in it. I know many may not agree but if we consider verses like Daniel 12:2Matthew 25:31-46John 5:28-29 to me these also point to this white throne judgment.
I am sure our loving and just God communicates with those who have not had a chance to read or hear Scripture, I believe the blood of Christ will cover them as well.
I believe we are somewhat limited in this knowledge of how God would judge soul that has absolutely heard nothing about the Gospel.
For one we can't be for sure about that number.
However, we do know God can send the message of salvation in many ways that points to the need of a savior, perhaps in types as he done in the old testament.
What Paul says in Romans 10:17 we often quote. "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Then we come to verse 18! "But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words UNTO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.
So we do have record that the Gospel went out to the whole world and I believe if it's any thing that would be reserved it would be his word in some way.
Many of these "Third world countries" have gotten the Gospel in some fashion well before we became a nation. At some time or another there was an decay and judgment.
We are also headed for judgment due to pride.
We do get a glimpse of the fair judgment or atleast different degrees of judgment of God in the parable in Luke 12 and in Matthew 11:21-24.
Hello Jaz, good morning.. I believe that those will be judged by their conscience, the light they had and or rejected. As the Scripture says in Romans 2:12-26, & John 1:9, 3:19-20. Thank you for your question.....
I am having a hard time praying lately, I know I am not close to the Lord as I once was and as I need and want to be... I personally am no Calvinist, and truly am developing a hatred for this theology..... It is so hurtful and damaging personally because it is coming from someone so close to me it hurts so bad... I really am thanks for all your insight and yes I agree I need to pray more!.. Love in Christ, Amanda...
There is a lot more I'd like to say but I'll wait to see if you have any further questions; comments or issues.
I frankly appreciate seeing anyone who is genuinely seeking God; and who I can pray for. I've been through a season where there has been contention and strife that has cost me fellowship recently with a brother in the Lord. I'll admit that I'm afraid you will decide to walk away from the Lord with this situation. I pray that you don't do that; even with the hard truths in scripture that in the flesh we don't want to accept.
When He chastises us; and He does that with all He loves you know it is to bring growth; or sanctification. I have been told that I am unloving; judgmental; etc. myself. God's love surpasses our own emotions and suffering for His Name's sake brings about joy and again the insight sometimes takes much prayer to see.
As to your situation it is sort of vague; not sure if it is a family member or roommate or someone you interact with frequently in church. I pray you can be removed if it is His will; or not be overcome for the time being. What I am saying is that it likely that verses of God's Word which contain truth are being forced in an unloving way on you.
I'm an old 60 year old guy and obviously it would be best if you had a woman help with discipling efforts; but it is hard out there I realize. I will say that if you can overcome opposition God can use you at some point to disciple others; and obviously to share faith with others as well.
As the Word says our spirit testifies with His Spirit that we are children of God ( Romans 8:16). After my latest struggles I sensed the angels of God and was strengthened. Once we truly know the Spirit we learn to recognize Him and also start to discern evil spirits around us. I realize that isn't directly what you brought up but I'm going to ask God to do these things in your life.
I am not sure what He has revealed to you; but if you are anything like me the burden of the coming Tribulation is overwhelming.
I am convinced God is well into judging His church; who in the most part unfortunately look ready to embrace the coming Antichrist. I can say this with confidence as Revelation 13 makes it clear that ALL those whose names are NOT written in the book of life will worship the Beast. In that light of course predestination is very clear. That may disturb you but I doubt anyone who has bugged you is willing to acknowledge that truth. For now at least the gates of hell will not prevail against the church at least the true remnant; but Daniel states the saints WILL be overcome in the soon to come judgments on the earth.
IF He has called and equipped you to warn what is to come there will be no doubt. As Jeremiah said when he tried to say nothing His Word was like fire in his bones.
Gotta run for now; God bless.
That solves a lot of other issues that tend to come from myopic spiritual eyes which need to focus on above and have a vision; lest the people perish.
God bless.
Rich P
It is dangerous to make a blanket statement about cessation of gifts because it is an attempt to put God in a box that we can understand. As to tongues; for instance it is clear from those familiar with the occult that demonic tongues exist; so clearly God can counter it with angelic ones if He so chooses. I have had a few dreams and or words of knowledge from others that were clearly from the Lord. Such things tend to be rare. All these so called specific predictions for the Rapture; for instance clearly go against scripture. But as you probably know the Reformed churches tend to be what is called "Post Millennial" or Amillennial; and they disregard numerous scriptures about the 1000 year reign of Christ found not only in Revelation but Isaiah and other O.T. texts. This is another attempt to symbolize what they consider to be a past event rather than acknowledgment that the Old Covenant on promises of land; etc still could be in conjunction with the New; although of course some things are unique to the Church Age. Again; that gets into another subject; covenant theology vs dispensations which I argue are both clearly indicated in scripture.
Of course for us as individuals; we need to focus on holiness which comes from a contrite spirit ( Psalm 51) and certainly not exclusive of scripture knowledge but also being led by the Spirit.
Agape.
The scriptures are our ultimate authority; and as you are probably aware the "Arminian" or free will camp as well as Calvanists have proof texts that are used to pidgeonhole a given doctrine into scripture whether it fits or only partially applies; along with avoiding ones that clearly contradict their hypothesis.
I would submit that there is evidence for both camps in the Word. Other verses may apply to a nation as opposed to individuals in regard to predestination; for instance. I would also say that when taken to an extreme or "hypercalvinism" and repentance isn't preached as a necessary element for salvation when witnessing red flags go off. Calvin; and in fact Luther as a person weren't exactly displaying Godly character; for instance when Silvanus was martyred; or when clearly anti Semitic statements were repeated that Martin Luther said when Hitler came to power. Calvin basically wanted to rule as a king or worldly lord. Also marriage in many cases has been reduced to a contract rather than a covenant which makes people excuse divorce as well as remarriage; and a legalistic framework of the "Westminster Divines" along with endless catechism studies which can run one's faith dry in the process. To be fair the free will camp has some problems in regard to expectations that without God granting repentance as the book of Acts and other verses suggest that anyone can freely come to God. Our decisions are prompted by stirring of the Spirit of God.
In reality; there is no contradiction that man can turn to the Lord and God in His foreknowledge is aware of it; and also predestines it. God is fair ultimately; and whatever number is saved or lost is already established. As Deut. 29:29 suggests WE don't know it however. You know them by their fruits ( Matt. 7:16). One can be a 5 point Calvanist and lost (albeit in the most narrow way possible to hell).
Hope some of this helps.
Agape. Rich P
There is the argument that those who are "Arminian" make which I also accept; namely that it is the PLAN of salvation that is predestined which is certainly true; whether or not we ascribe it to the level of an individual. God's PLAN is that only through the Son is one saved; and we need His atonement through His substitutionary death to bring us to life. There are many cults and religions that mention Christ but not as God; but a great "Prophet" usually or teacher; or "ascended master". It takes supernatural insight to realize He is God in the flesh or part of the Godhead bodily. Not believing He is who He says He is of course involves deliberate rejection of the truth and the authority of God's Word despite the history; eyewitnesses; and changed lives we see around us. Perhaps more damaging or damning are those who make claims to believe but don't truly have a root in Him and fall away; these individuals ignore John 14:15 about keeping His commandments if we love Him.
We again need to see that God called out from other nations those who would be the Patriarchs of Israel; such as with Abraham and Moses. God knows who will respond and sends either missionaries or dreams and visions for these people.
Again His ways are above ours.
!)Do you believe God chooses some souls before they are born to be the elect destine for heaven and those who are not the elect destine for Hell?
2) If souls are chosen before birth to go one place or the other, why would a greatly loving God create souls that He has already deemed not of the elect to end up in hell?
Thank You for your answers. God Bless:)
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
To loosely transliterate/expand: God KNOWS all things beforehand, including those who would come to Him in faith through His Son (heaven bound) & those who would refuse Him (hell bound).
In His Foreknowledge, he predestined those (in verse 30) to increasingly bear the Image of His Son, thereby Jesus being truly the firstborn of God's children (firstborn, both as a forerunner & Chief Cornerstone of His Church ( Hebrews 12:23; Ephesians 2:20), as well as being the firstborn where both Deity & Humanity coexist together ( 1 Timothy 3:16; 1 Corinthians 3:16).
In fulfilment of His Predestination Plan to one day have those of His creation to bear His Son's Image & be filled with His Spirit, God, IN HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE, called (those He chose) to hear & receive the Gospel message. And these very ones who received the Word with all readiness of mind ( Acts 17:11) & joy, God justified ('declared as righteous', having our slates cleaned, as it were). And to those He justified, he glorified (Gk. edoxasen: 'God brings Christians to a heavenly dignity and condition').
Since, we as believers evangelising with the Gospel, have no idea of those who will be saved & those who will not (known to God alone), the Gospel seeds are scattered/sown that all might hear, particularly those to whom the Spirit leads us to. Sadly, most will refuse, but we can rest assured that all known of God will be saved - none lost.
My discussions with Jesse are whether the KJB is Holy Ghost inspired (my belief) or if it is not (his belief) not Calvinism, unless I sent an answer, about predestination, to him by mistake.
I would like to say: that you and I are brother and sister in the Lord. I believe you and I both love the Lord dearly and our lives belong to Him. I have said this because I feel it is time to end our discussions on this topic. I don't want to be accused of running a topic into the ground and I think we have said all that can be said for ourselves and others. Please know that I am not angry, hurt, annoyed or anything else. I love you in the Lord, Chris. God Bless :)
Dear Momsage. Thank you for your kind sentiments expressed here. I know that you, and so many others here, love the Lord with all their hearts & your desire is to bring forward your understanding from the Bible, and where there is a difference of opinion, then a good, hearty & loving discussion can ensue. I don't believe that a topic being discussed at great length as 'being run into the ground', since a discussion is as good as those who are prepared to engage in it & want to keep it going. If exchanges cease, then the topic ends, and as often is the case, without agreement, whether in full or part.
Concerning the inspiration of the KJB translation, I believe that brother Jesse has explained it very well, in that inspiration came in the original writings, when holy men of God & prophets had direct interactions with the LORD, or as in the case of Genesis, where Moses was so directed to pen those words or to access other writings from those preceding him, giving us the history. What we have now in our modern translations (including the KJB), is wholly dependent on the texts that they have derived from & the quality of the translators. Does this mean that those translators of the NIV, NASB, etc. were not inspired or diligent in their work? Or rather, their source material, though older, may not necessarily be the more reliable (for they even differ between each other, depending on which one is used or used in combination with the others).
Just as an example concerning the translators themselves: take 1 Timothy 3:1 or Titus 1:7, focussing on the word 'bishop'. Today, we envision a bishop as a senior member of a clergy, maybe in charge of a diocese & one who confers 'holy' orders to his parishes. As well, he robes himself in a long embroidered gown with a mitre on his head. Do you feel that Paul when writing those words in his letters pictured such an official person in the Church, so admirably dressed to lead Christ's Church? Onto Page 2.
Likewise, did Timothy & Titus also understand it in that way? Rather, we have a large group of translators (KJB), in the 17th Century AD, unable to render any other meaning to the Gk, episkopos (which is a superintendent, an overseer, an elder), simply because 'episkopos' was a bishop in the church of that day, but for us in the evangelical community, that is not how we should read it, as it gives us an incorrect understanding. Many of the recent translations change it to 'overseer' - I'm unsure whether any of them use 'elder'.
Now when we look at Acts 14:23 for example, the Gk, word for 'elder' is 'presbuteros', from which we get 'presbytery' (a body of Church elders & ministers). Yet, the KJB translators, being faithful to the Greek had to differentiate between the two (episkopos & presbuteros), which would have been meaningful to those of their day & Church structure, but forces us to re-word those passages to fit our present evangelical Church structure. Were the KJB translators or other modern translators wrong in what they've understood & translated? I don't believe so, they just did what they understood & from the material they had before them. So then back to the old question: how then do we decide which translation is the most accurate & inspired? Is it seen from the original manuscripts/original writings, or just believing that the KJB can be the only one from God for us today? For me, I only read & study from the KJB: it's the one I grew up with, memorized from & love. However, since it didn't come to us in English/modern English, I am constantly on guard to ensure that I am reading the Scriptures as originally given, without the culture & era of the translators impeding on my understanding. Yes, they were inspired to translate, but did so within the limitations of their time & with the understanding that no translation from one language to another can ever be perfect (differences in grammar, syntax, nuances, etc. always apply). Onto Page 2.
If I might relate two examples (shared here a long while ago) with just word-for-word difficulties. A language translator missionary (I personally know her) doing her work amongst a tribal group in Papua New Guinea, came across Isaiah 53:6 as part of her work: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all". She couldn't get a word for 'sheep' in her target language, simply because they knew nothing of sheep/never seen one. Her dilemma: should she be faithful to the Word and use sheep, maybe giving them some type of picture & their habits to help them, or should she substitute the word for another. If she described a sheep to those with her now, others in later years reading the Bible, may not have the same benefit of her present teaching/translation. So she changed the word to 'pig' ('all we like pigs have gone astray'). Pigs they knew, for they herded them & seen them in the wild, with their propensity to wander off if left unwatched.
A personal example, when sharing from the Word in Pakistan with a Church group. Not having a good grip on Urdu (Pakistan's national language), I used a translator & as is always good practise, to go through the message with him so that he too can be prepared. I referred to 1 John 4:10, "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins". 'Propitiation' is a big word even for English-speakers, so asked my translator for the Urdu word for it & how he understood it. He gave the word as 'kaffara', which simply means 'atonement'. I asked, "was that all it meant to him (& by extension to all Christians in Pakistan)?" He replied, "Yes, that is how we all read that verse", because they have no word for 'propitiation' = to appease, or satisfy God's Anger. Obviously, I had to explain further to both him & the congregation, its meaning.
Onto Page 4.
How sad, that from a translation, whether the KJB or RSV (as Urdu Bibles are taken from), believers are missing out on the richness of certain words. And to reiterate, this will always happen, for that is the nature of languages when translated (unless copious notes are also included to further explain or expand).
Sorry Momsage to hit you with such a long response, even though you probably were not looking for one from me. But thought to share in some detail, to show that what brother Jesse is meticulously reading & bringing out for us from the original Greek, should not only be helpful to us in our reading & study, but also to confirm that no translation (even our beloved KJB) can be a perfect rendering of the original. It's one of the best, though not perfect.
Now to Calvinism! No, I won't burden you with that also, but just to say, there are aspects of Calvin's beliefs (otherwise, summarized in those 5 points (five articles of faith: TULIP) accepted by the Synod of Dort in 1618 AD as being the "Rule of Faith" rather than accepting the presentation by the Arminians); that some aspects of Calvin's beliefs are worthy of consideration & acceptance, thereby not throwing out 'baby with the bath water'. Again, it all boils down to, how we read & understand the Scriptures. Thanks for your concern & input on these matters - they are read diligently. Every blessing Momsage.
God Bless :)
Ephesians 1: it is interesting to note, that wherever 'predestination' is referred to here ( Ephesians 1:5, 11) & also in Romans 8:29, the word is used not directly towards salvation as a destiny, but to the believer's adoption into God's family, to being God's Praise & Glory, & to be conformed to Christ's Image. So I can see that 'salvation' is implied in these phrases, for how else can believers achieve God's Purposes for them unless they are first saved? Yet it is believed by some that God has predestined each person to receive salvation or be rejected, however we must consider His Predestining Work (in the verses cited above) as to what He predestines believers for, rather than Him arbitrarily consigning some & not others towards salvation. For this reason, I quoted to you recently from Romans 8:29,30, emphasizing that God predestines His children towards salvation & conformation to His Son according to what He already knows about them (& all people) - or else God isn't as omniscient as first understood. And brother S. Spencer referred to these verses as well.
If we are to believe that God is indeed truly Omniscient, then He must already know who will come into the World & what their state in life will be & how they will answer His Gospel, should they come under its sound. So I do agree with you, that God does not accept or reject sinners arbitrarily, for then His Love for all people is brought into serious question - indeed the essence of the Gospel is misunderstood & weakened to the 'n(th) degree'.
Or of course the reverse logic is why would God save anyone; we were all astray as Isaiah states; we were all children of wrath previous to salvation. Or perhaps I could state this God will not choose anyone to enter heaven who isn't covered by the blood; or wants to be there in order to have a pleasurable place to sin; or self rule or any other nonesense. Serving the Lord doesn't come naturally; the outer actions can happen but not the heart transformed to that of Christ who came not to be served but serve and of course greater love is this that a man dies for his friend.
Your second question of course can't be helped but to be sensed by me as another trap of the same venue. I don't wish to make or break fellowship because of quibbling these issues. I have to appeal to Deut. 29:29 there are hidden things of God.
Whatever our theological differences in the end a set number are in heaven and hell. It's your prerogative to think what you will of me; read the Word.
I was thinking some of the same things you posted to Momsage.
I agree that Romans 9 is a difficult passage to accept for most of us. And, like you mentioned, God could have, in his holiness, purity, sinlessness and justice willed that NO ONE would be saved and all sinners would be judged to the lake of fire as He has determined for Satan and the angels that sinned with him. But we know that His decision to save a selected people for salvation to live forever in His presence, forgiven of all their sins and made righteous through His Son. Just as some question how a loving, merciful God could predestine some and leave others to be condemned, we could say "How can a perfectly sinless, holy, pure, and just God forgive anyone's sins and gift them with salvation."
Or we can say, "If God is loving and merciful then He should save every person to be fair and just." But we know that that is not true.
The answers to these queries are deeply rooted in God's perfect wisdom, will, purpose, and that His ways are higher than ours, His thoughts are not our thoughts, as Isaiah said. We can, however, read what Romans 9 says and believe that God actually selected Abel over Cain, Shem's lineage over Ham's, Abraham over his brothers, Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Esau, Joseph over his other brothers, Moses over other Levites, to be set apart for His purpose and by His grace given favor, mercy, and blessing.
I believe that if God has indeed predestined some to be saved without any merit on their part and leaves the rest of humanity to continue in sin and be condemned to the lake of fire, then that is His sovereign choice to do so. It does not diminish His love or mercy at all, nor is He unfair. He is the one who decides what is good, morally right, and just. We are not to question His ways, but believe that He is right in all of His ways, choices, and actions.
It is hard at times to submit our thoughts, desires, and emotions to God when He does not choose all.
As to this subject the intended recipient of it is very likely to react as I suggested since I've seen that sort of thing before; if not with her others. I don't want to sound presumptuous or predict reactions so pray about that also. Nonetheless these type things have proven to be dead ends as to discussion when emotions take over and we can't try to be Bereans or comprehend the ways of God. Again; many who would say they believe in the TULIP concepts can be arrogant. In answering these questions scripturally I am afraid the idea is that I have to be bigoted to conceive of God this way. I have appealed to even Judas Iscariot clearly predicted to be the son of perdition (first one then Antichrist being next). Jesus gave him the sop which was the highly sought after symbol of esteem for a friend; as well as the fact that the Psalms showed how a trusted friend would betray the Messiah. Truth be told our niceness can't save the nicest person in the world to the meanest without the Lord intervening and working on men's hearts.
However this works out; fundamentally man only understands how vile his state is by seeing the holiness of God. When the Spirit moves on a man there is the fear of the Lord and the world by and large resists. It should be clear the lack of persecution at least in most mega churches as well as others is due to the fact that somehow the Spirit is being quenched; either with dumbed down doctrines; a lack of emphasis on repentance and a lack of submission love and obedience of His commandments which is needed to be a true disciple of Christ. Such Spirit filled servants are feared and avoided because the conviction level is high and the enemy is threatened. Unless we know we are at war we become politically correct in regard to Satan; not treating him as an enemy we fight ( Ephesians 6)
As to this discussion. My emotional side tends to resist that God only saves those who He draws to Jesus, having elected them to salvation in His Son. But as I have been studying the doctrine of the depravity of mankind, I know that no one can turn to God without His drawing us by grace. My rational side is fine with what Romans 9 says, since I know that God is far more holy than we tend to think and if we knew how far apart He is in His holiness from our sinfulness, we would marvel that He has selected those who are to be vessels of His mercy, though they are all children of wrath prior to His work of grace in all He chooses. And I believe that Romans 9 does speak to this in that when the vessels of His mercy truly discover the great work He has done in them and that without it they would be like those who remain vessels of His wrath, we will praise Him, glorify Him, and thank Him endlessly.
I look forward to more discussions on the aspects of Calvinism (which is Augustinianism in many ways) as doing so gives us all better clarity on what the Scriptures actually teach on the topics I mentioned to Chris. I am not ready to dive into the depravity doctrine yet. I want to finish up the posts on the attributes of God. My next one is that He is transcendent. Probably will post on that tomorrow if I have time.
The cabinets are going into our kitchen this week so I have to "supervise" so that both the worker and I are thinking the same as to the layout. Also, the electricians come tomorrow to install the can lighting and connect outlets in the wired boxes.
And on top of all this, our little grandbaby takes up a lot of time as Mom is struggling some to keep up with the care. Grandpa and I spend a lot of time with her between feedings and naps.
Blessings to you Richard. Appreciate your input here and the way we can discuss serious matters between us freely
My thought in answering you is that I felt it not quit right for us to assume by the time God calls His Bride home that there will be anyone who hasn't, in some way, come to know the truth of salvation, especially with the internet and the many social media platforms available. Today the internet is pretty much considered a necessity more then a play thing and I know there are entities that believe everyone should have it, even for free and are trying to accomplish this.
But, as I was saying this is something we must trust God for, that His loving spirit is going to reach them all. We just must do the best we can to reach as many as we can.
I know there is a lot of worldliness and evil on the internet but there are a lot of true Christians who are on there also who preach the truth. I'm not promoting it, just saying it is there and has a tremendous potential for outreach. But Gid could just speak to a heart and draw them to Him without any intervention from anyone or anything. I believe that is what Jesusgirl87 is saying because it is our our conscieous that calls us to God. Jesusgirl87 please pardon me if I have misunderstood you. Bless :)
If you believe that after a person dies , they either go to heaven or to hell , where do you think that all those people who never got the chance to hear about God or Jesus go after they have died ? There must be millions of them , there was a time , a very long time , when TV , phones , internet and even printing didn't exist . So what happens to all of those people , that God created , who never got the opportunity to get to know Him through no fault of their own ?
If anyone else would like to give me an answer to this question I would be pleased to hear their answer .
I'm not trying to be contentious I promise , I'm honestly interested to hear what people believe and especially why they believe what they believe . Thank you .
As S Spencer said we may not know for sure.
We all have inside us, a sinful nature from the first Adam, we also have a conscience, the knowledge of good and evil, and the knowledge of God. We first see this when Adam and Eve hid themselves because they were naked. We see some go so far into the darkness that their conscience can be seared, the conscience no longer tells them good from evil, 1 Timothy 4:2. There is a point where God turns them over to a reprobate mind, Romans 1:28-32.
I believe there will be those who enter eternity who have never heard the gospel, and those who lived before Jesus first came because we have a loving and just God.
Romans 2:11-16 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
My understanding is this will happen at the great white throne judgment, Revelation 20:11-15, in this it says, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire". If some were not found in the Book of Life means some were found in it. I know many may not agree but if we consider verses like Daniel 12:2 Matthew 25:31-46 John 5:28-29 to me these also point to this white throne judgment.
I am sure our loving and just God communicates with those who have not had a chance to read or hear Scripture, I believe the blood of Christ will cover them as well.
God bless,
RLW
I believe that is a very good and fair question.
I believe we are somewhat limited in this knowledge of how God would judge soul that has absolutely heard nothing about the Gospel.
For one we can't be for sure about that number.
However, we do know God can send the message of salvation in many ways that points to the need of a savior, perhaps in types as he done in the old testament.
What Paul says in Romans 10:17 we often quote. "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Then we come to verse 18! "But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words UNTO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.
So we do have record that the Gospel went out to the whole world and I believe if it's any thing that would be reserved it would be his word in some way.
Many of these "Third world countries" have gotten the Gospel in some fashion well before we became a nation. At some time or another there was an decay and judgment.
We are also headed for judgment due to pride.
We do get a glimpse of the fair judgment or atleast different degrees of judgment of God in the parable in Luke 12 and in Matthew 11:21-24.
That's just my take Jaz.
Perhaps others can add.
God bless.
I frankly appreciate seeing anyone who is genuinely seeking God; and who I can pray for. I've been through a season where there has been contention and strife that has cost me fellowship recently with a brother in the Lord. I'll admit that I'm afraid you will decide to walk away from the Lord with this situation. I pray that you don't do that; even with the hard truths in scripture that in the flesh we don't want to accept.
When He chastises us; and He does that with all He loves you know it is to bring growth; or sanctification. I have been told that I am unloving; judgmental; etc. myself. God's love surpasses our own emotions and suffering for His Name's sake brings about joy and again the insight sometimes takes much prayer to see.
As to your situation it is sort of vague; not sure if it is a family member or roommate or someone you interact with frequently in church. I pray you can be removed if it is His will; or not be overcome for the time being. What I am saying is that it likely that verses of God's Word which contain truth are being forced in an unloving way on you.
I'm an old 60 year old guy and obviously it would be best if you had a woman help with discipling efforts; but it is hard out there I realize. I will say that if you can overcome opposition God can use you at some point to disciple others; and obviously to share faith with others as well.
As the Word says our spirit testifies with His Spirit that we are children of God ( Romans 8:16). After my latest struggles I sensed the angels of God and was strengthened. Once we truly know the Spirit we learn to recognize Him and also start to discern evil spirits around us. I realize that isn't directly what you brought up but I'm going to ask God to do these things in your life.
Many blessings; Rich P
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