Now people are so confused with so many versions out there they are desperate enough to ask some stranger on YouTube.
I know I'm what a lot of people call "KJB only" and in a sense I am but I don't believe people are condemn to hell if they use the modern versions. Their salvation does not hing on that. But I strongly believe they could be lead into believing false doctrine which could harm their walk with God, eventually leading to destruction. I went to a non-denominational church once and really enjoyed it until the pastor told me he didn't believe the KJB was written by God, his bible was the NIV. I stop going.
Here are just three examples of corrupt verses compared to the KJB: Matthew 18:11 KJB "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost." In the NIV and ESV: The verse is eliminated. It isn't there. A verse that speaks in plain, easily understood English that shows that Jesus is the Messiah, was eliminated. Luke 4:8: " KJB "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." NIV: "Jesus answered, "It is written: Worship the Lord your God and serve him only." ESV: "And Jesus answered him,"It is written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve." Ephesians 3:14 KJB: "For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," NIV " For this reason I kneel before the Father, ESV "For this reason I bow my knees before the Father," (Again, diminishes the deity of Christ.)
I know it is between a christian and the Lord what bible versions they choose to use but I would think they would want the one God choose to give His children. I believe it is part of my respect for God"s truth to tell the good of the KJB and the harm of the modern versions. I emphatically believe the KJB is the Holy Ghost inspired Bible and meant for His children to trust and love. God Bless ;)
Telling a believer that they are not a true Christian because of what bible version they choose to read is a terrible thing to say. A true Christian is a person who has been born of God's Spirit, Period!
I never said that nor do I believe it but why would you want to read a version that deminishes the diety of Christ?Adam gave an incorrect example he said: " if I say I walked to the park it's not incorrect to say the park is where I walked to, this is correct but it's wrong to just say I went for a walk, leaving out an important part of the information; his walk was to the park. If the NIV was written just to modernize the language then why is it 64,000 words shorter then the KJB, and have 3600 changes that affect doctrine.
I realize that it wasn't you who said that those who read other bibles are not true Christians, but whoever said this, you seemed to agree with them as you said "You make a good point about people who use these versions not being true Christians."
How is that a good point? And who actually said this? I tried finding those words written by someone but had no luck. I'm sure someone must have said it since you agreed with them.
I still don't see how someone would not be considered a true Christian based on what Bible they read. A Christian who uses a different Bible is just as saved as the person who only uses the KJB.
I have not read the NIV so I am in no position to answer your questions about the NIV. Also, I read what Adam posted and I didn't have any issue with anything he said. Perhaps he might respond to you (if the Lord leads him to do so). If not, and if you are open to it, maybe I can give my thoughts.
Hi Jesse: First of all, IF I said, I agreed with them I was probably agreeing that the new versions are bad for christian and so it seemed like I was agreeing with the ridiculous idea that if a christian used these bibles they were not true christian. As I so empathically stated in my previous post, I DO NOT believe that statement nor would I condone anyone else believing it.
I haven't "read" the NIV either because just looking at the examples I have seen where the deity of Christ is most certainly diminished I would never use it and I'm not just talking about the NIV, almost all popular modern versions follow each other and give the same interpretations as the NIV. Some verses are repeated so the men who put the NIV and other versions together decided they knew better than the Holy Spirit and that it didn't need to be repeated. I don't know how these supposedly christian men can think they know better then the Holy Spirit. Some even believe no bible was written by God at all but, if not, then that brings us down to having to trust men rather then God for our knowledge of who God is, what He thinks of us, who is Jesus, etc. Chaos.
I'm very open to your comments and to continue this discussion. May I ask if the KJB is the bible you use? God Bless :)
Hi Jesse: I believe I've already answered this post but I did want you to know that I found my comments where you think I agreed with someone who said Christians who use bible versions other then the KJB are in sin but you didn't really understand what Ihad said. I did agree that Christians should read the KJB alone but I didn't agree that those who do are condemned. I'm afraid I lost it again but i wanted you to know because being deceitful, saying I agreed with something I didn't really agree with, is lying and being deceitful and I am not guilty of either of these. When the word of God tells me that liars go to hell I believe that includes being deceitful. God Bless :)
Yes, you already answered and stated your position. We came to an agreement and I have moved on and forgotten about because I thought we were done with that conversation. But since you are bringing it back up, please allow me to reshare your exact words to SeanPaul:
You said to him, "You make a good point about people who use these versions not being true Christians and I agree with you for those you have been made to see the truth in this."
Now you are telling me that I "really didn't understand" what you were saying, but your statement was quite clear to me as to what you were agreeing with, or at least what you thought was a "good point."
And no, I did not think that you agreed with someone who said Christians who use bible versions other than the KJB are in sin because that's not what you said. What you seemed to agree with was that these people were not true Christians if they read any other Bible than the KJV.
Please reread your exact words which I have quoted. I'm not sure how else to interpret what you said. If that's not what you meant and you simply made a mistake by telling SeanPaul that he made a good point about those who read different bibles not being true Christians, then that's fine, let's move on!
I agree with you about it being a ridiculous idea to think that someone who reads a different version of the bible other than the KJB would not be considered a true Christian. I quoted your exact words when you said this person made a good point by saying that those who read different versions of the bible are not true Christians, so I hope you understand why I would question you on that. There's a difference between agreeing with someone who says new versions are bad for believers and agreeing with someone who says those who use new versions are not true believers. When I read your words, it showed me that you were agreeing with the latter.
However, you have clarified and made clear your belief on this, and we both agree that it WAS NOT a good point. I am happy to know you don't believe that way. To answer your question, yes, the King James is the bible I use. I trust it to be a good translation, although not a perfect translation. I don't believe there are any perfect English translations. There are a couple other bibles that I trust just as much as I trust the KJB.
As far as these men who put together the NIV and you saying, "you don't know how these supposedly christian men can think they know better than the Holy Spirit," I can't respond to that as I have no way of knowing what was in the hearts of those men, although I do have my doubts that they honestly thought they knew better than the Holy Spirit. I hope I'm not just taking your words too literally. I tend to do that at times!
I am also open for discussion. Do you have any questions you would like to ask me? I can tell you up front that I'm one of those that does not believe the KJB was written by God. I also don't believe one can make a fair assessment on the accuracy of any English bible translation by using the KJB as their authoritative source of comparison. First, one would have to determine the accuracy of the KJB? How would one do that?
QUESTIONS: If God didn't write one true version of His word for us to have then who did? or did anyone? How do we know right from wrong if we can't trust what is written since you don't seem to believe the ancient writings have been handed down without errors? Since the authors of these versions have said they were only attempting to modernize the language of the KJB, which is why the comparison is made to the KJB, why did they almost exclusively use different ancient writings then weren't used for the KJB? Their justification for this is because the manuscripts were older but age has nothing to do with truth. If they believed the bible was the written word of God why didn't they use the manuscripts God used and just make simple changes to the language? Why if they loved God and respected His word would they do what they did and now there are those of you who don't even believe God wrote a word of truth for us. I know for myself I wouldn't be able to get along without the supernatural word of God as a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. ( Psalm 119:105) It has kept me close to God and helped me grow in Him for 56 years and I know it will until I am in His presence for eternity. What joy is there in reading man's interpretation of what God may have said, or maybe not. Maybe Jesus isn't His only begotten son? Maybe Jesus was created and isn't a part of the trinity. Maybe there isn't a Trinity at all. This is what Jehovah Witnesses believe. How do we know that they don't have the truth? Or maybe the Mormons or the Buddhist or the etc., etc. Why don't we just all make up our own religion and do what we want from whatever versions we choose to believe or maybe bits here and bits there from every version. What ever suits us. Don't think I am being sarcastic, if man wrote the bible then these are legitimate questions and thoughts. God Bless :)
PS. If I've misunderstood you in any way I'm sorry but this is what I read in your comment.
(Part 4, and final part): I'm not going to promise this time as I've learned my lesson!
Q. If you believe that God wrote the KJB, who wrote the bible/s that was/were already in existence before 1611?
Q. Also, if God did write the KJB, which version of the KJB did He write? Was it the original 1611 because there have been several revisions to the 1611. What the revisions? Some say that the revisions and changes are just grammatical errors and such. But with God being perfect, would there be grammatical errors at all if He wrote it?
Momsage, I do appreciate your questions. I also appreciate and respect your zeal for the King James Bible, even though we don't agree on who wrote it and its complete accuracy. It is still the bible I choose to study. I also read the Greek text (Textus Receptus) and there are differences that I have found from the Greek text in comparison to the KJB. Would it be wrong of me to mark through a word in the KJB and replace it with the word the Greek text uses if the original text uses a different word?
Hey Jesse: I'm about ready to respond with all parts of this posting except I need you to clarify something for me. What do you mean by the Creek Text you can read? It is the text that is part of the original writings? I don't doubt you, I just need to understand what you mean. God Bless :)
Thanks for continuing on with this discussion. I was taught how to read Koine Greek and was given a copy of the Textus Receptus (Greek New Testament) during one of our class studies. We had 20 plus people in the class and the pastor who was teaching the class handed everyone in the room a copy to keep.
To this day, I do not know who purchased all those copies for the entire class. It wasn't the pastor. He told us that someone had purchased them for the entire class but the person wished to remain anonymous. I can sincerely say that what I learned in that class was a true blessing. I do refer to the Greek text quite a bit during my NT studies. It is just my personal choice to do so. That is the text I was referring to.
Personally, I wish it was a requirement for every person going into the ministry to master Biblical Greek before being ordained into the ministry. I don't think that we in the body of Christ would be in such a mess if that were the case.
As I'm sure you know, the New Testament was originally written in Greek. Praise God for that! Since the New Testament is mainly doctrine and teaching, I think it had to be an exact language, and with Greek being such an exact language, I don't think it could have been any other way!
Hi Jesse: Oh! What a blessing and I'm sure God blessed your pastor and whoever gave your class those copies of the Texus Receptus.
I will finish this discussion soon but, unfortunately, I'm very fatigued so I am going to spend the day in my recliner crafting rather then sitting at my desk. But praise the Lord for a beautiful day and with my recliner and the touch of the Lord I should be okay for tomorrow. This fatigue doesn't usually last more then a day, praise the Lord. I would like to ask you, have you found a conflict between the Creek and the KJB? If so please tell me what it is. Talk to you tomorrow. God Bless :)
No worries, I completely understand. Yes, recliners have to be one of the greatest inventions. I love mine. I wonder if it was a lazy person who came up with the idea?
As far as your question asking me if I have found conflict between the Greek (Textus Receptus) and the King James Bible, I'll just say that I have found several places in the KJB (NT) that could have been worded differently, places where a word from the Greek text has a different meaning than what was translated into English for us.
If you are asking me to share with you every single place in question, this is not something I can do in a short amount of time, but I am willing to share with you everything I have found as time permits. Perhaps we can start with Matthew first and work our way through Revelation. Or, if you have something else in mind, I am open, so please let me know.
I do hope you get some good rest, and with our current discussion, please take whatever time you need. I trust that you will get back with me as the Lord leads. Who knows, I'm not even sure if I'll be on here tomorrow!
I hope you can find the second and third part to my post. I thought I had finally figured out how to send them together but I guess I need more practice. God Bless :)
Hey Jesse: How are you? I'm glad you are enjoying this discussion. It really encourages me to study even more. Recliners are indeed a wonderful invention. You made me laugh when you said maybe a lazy person invented it. :) I have to admit I would love to do a study with you comparing the KJB to the Texus Receptus, but it's a lot for me to ask, even though you volunteered, so I'll leave it up to you.
YOU: I believe the ancient writings of scripture are completely free from error." However, the KJB or any other English translation or version are not the ancient writings, and there is no perfect English translation/version.
ME: I'm sorry I made the wrong assumption about the original writings. I thought when you first said you didn't believe God wrote the bible you meant all the writings from the beginning. So sorry.
ME: If God didn't write one true version of His word for us to have then who did?
YOU: We do have God's perfect word in the original languages. It's through various English translations (including the KJB) where we run into problems.
ME: The Holy Ghost wrote the KJB inspiring the men who authored it. If not, then I guess the authors were just doing their best to write what they thought the original languages were saying and we just have to accept what they decided to write. But why should we? If the Holy Spirit kept the original writings pure why did He do that if they weren't going to be used any more? Why just let them fade into obscurity instead of using them so we have a pure English version for mankind? English is the second most spoken language in the world.
ME: How do we know right from wrong if we can't trust what is written? YOU: Is it the bible that teaches us right from wrong, or is it God's Spirit that convicts a person (both believer and non-believer) of what's right and what's wrong?
ME: Both. Man's conscience does convict him of right and wrong but that's not enough for him to come to salvation. Man, if he has a sense of what he is doing is wrong but enjoys it and doesn't want to quit he isn't going to. But then again, maybe his conscience is bothering him enough he looks to God for help and what God says about what is troubling him. I just hope he uses the KJB.
YOU: If the KJB is used as the source to compare all other bibles for truth, what do you use to check the KJB for accuracy and, I must ask you, what manuscripts did God use? ME: The original writings that the Holy Ghost had kept pure: the Masochistic text and the Texus Receptus.
ME: Why if they loved God and respected His word would they do what they did and now there are those of you who don't even believe God wrote a word of truth for us. I know for myself I wouldn't be able to get along without the supernatural word of God as a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. YOU: You speak of "those of you who don't even believe God wrote a word of truth for us?"
ME: I'm so sorry, I wasn't thinking of you or anyone on this site, I was thinking of my X pastor, although my wording is wrong. Sorry.
YOU: If you believe that God wrote the KJB, who wrote the bible/s that was/were already in existence before 1611? Also, if God did write the KJB, which version of the KJB did He write? Was it the original 1611 because there have been several revisions to the 1611? ME: God chose the final version of the KJB that was produced because that is the one He wanted. I don't know why He allowed grammatical errors in the first one. Perhaps to test our faith in His word.
YOU: Would it be wrong of me to mark through a word in the KJB and replace it with the word the Greek text uses?
ME: If the KJB differs from the Creek I hope you will do that study with me. As for marking out words, I kind of think that's between you and the Lord. The Lord knows 99% of us can't read the Masochistic text or the Texus Receptus but He knew we would need an English version since English is the second most spoken language in the world so He gave use a translation we can trust and it was trusted for centuries until some men, like in the story I'm posting next, thought we needed one written in modern English. I believe you said you use the KJB mostly, so I guess I'm kind of preaching to the Choir except you believe it wasn't written by God, you don't believe we have a bible we can trust to be inspired by the Holy Spirit, is that right? The authors used the manuscripts accepted by God not the ones rejected by the Church fathers. I think I answered all your questions. If I missed one, please let me know.
Thanks for clarifying who were speaking of when you said, "those of you who don't even believe God wrote a word of truth for us?" I had no way of knowing that you were speaking singular (your ex-pastor) as the words "those of you" indicate plural. I'm glad to hear you weren't speaking of anyone here.
As to your question, yes, I do mostly use the KJB. I don't believe it was written by God. Please allow me to respond to where you said "you (myself) don't believe we have a bible we can trust to be inspired by the Holy Spirit, is that right?
No, that's not right. I trust that the bible in its original languages was inspired by God and can be trusted. If you're only referring to English translations, I have said in previous posts that there are a few English bibles I trust to be good translations (but not perfect).
Last question: I asked that if God did write the KJB, which version of the KJB did He write? You replied that "God chose the final version of the KJB that was produced because that is the one He wanted." Which version, and how do you know He wanted that one?
It's good to know that we both read and study KJB. We just disagree on it being a "perfect" translation. I will share with you why I believe there is no perfect English translation and how I come to this conclusion through studying the (NT) scriptures from a Biblical Greek standpoint. I am not prepared to go through the OT as I have not studied from the Septuagint, and I know very little Hebrew.
This will take some time, so please be patient with me. I promise you that what I share will not come from the internet, but from my own personal study. I will share the differences I've found between the English and the Greek Text (in this case, the KJB). I only ask that whatever I share with you that you please study it out on your own to come up with your own conclusion. I'll start with Matthew and (Lord willing) work through Revelation.
Yes, you've answered all my questions. Thank you so much for that. I do have a couple more questions though. You mentioned a "Masochistic text" twice. I don't think there is such a thing. Are you are referring to the Masoretic Text? Masochistic has to do with masochism.
You mention a "pure English version for mankind." I am assuming you believe that version to be the KJB? We know that the last book of the bible was written around 95AD. No other prophecy or scripture has been written after that. So, between 95AD and 1611 when the King James was published, if we believe that God has kept His word pure, and with there being other English bibles that were used by English speaking believers before 1611 (before the KJB), why would you not hold the same view of those bibles as you do the KJB? Would it be feasible to believe any of the bibles that preceded the KJB were pure English versions?
Your answer to my question about how a person knows right from wrong got me to thinking. I asked if it was the bible or God's Spirit that convicts a person (believer or non-believer) of right or wrong. I was thinking God's Spirit alone, but you said both. After thinking about it, and the example you shared, what you said makes sense and I agree. However, you described a man who is unsaved, and his conscience is bothering him enough that he looks to God for help and what God says about what is troubling him. You also said that you just hope he uses the KJB. (I did get a chuckle out of that one!)
But my question to you is; if an unsaved man is involved in sin and is convicted of his sin, and his conscience is bothering him enough to where he looks to God for help, why would he need a bible at all? Would he even know where to look? Would he even be able to understand what he is reading in his natural state?
We needed to put all of our living room furniture in storage for our remodel. My recliner was kind of worn and a bit broken, so we put it behind our garbage cans for the next dump run. I was going to get a new one. Well, after sitting in regular chairs for two weeks my back was aching and spasming really painfully. I knew I needed to sit in a recliner and my new one would not arrive for 8-10 weeks. So, needless to say, the old recliner got pulled out from behind the garbage bins and put under the canopy of our outdoor make-do kitchen area. So, I am keeping it there until the new one arrives and we can move everything back into the living room!
I had not had spasm like that since 2020, so it reminded me of how bad my back was then and how much God heals us, not all in the same way, but my back was pretty well rehabbed until this episode. So Lazy-Boy has made my life easier and less painful. I am grateful for this invention more than ever!
Hopefully, I have answered all your questions. Before I ask my questions, I just want to commend you on the 56 years of studying God's word. I also have spent many years in His word. I have never shared how many years on this forum because that is something I just don't feel the need to share. I have my reasons or not sharing that. However, I do agree with you fully that it is through God's word that spiritual growth comes from. In fact, I believe the next step after salvation is growth. Peter tells us in 2 Peter 3:18 "But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
If I were to pick one verse in the bible, this is the verse I would pick as to what would be the message for believers today. Though we have a multitude of things that we like to do in reference to the Lord, the things that we know are important (at least to us), grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That's a command! It is written in command form in the Greek text.
And no, I don't think you were being sarcastic at all. Your questions were fair to ask.
Now, for my questions:
Q. What version did God write?
Q. Is it the bible that teaches us right from wrong, or is it God's Spirit that convicts a person (both believer and non-believer) of what's right and what's wrong?
Q. If the KJB is used as the source to compare all other bibles for truth, what do you use to check the KJB for accuracy?
Q. Since you asked, "why didn't they use the manuscripts God used," I must ask you what manuscripts did God use?
Q. You speak of "those of you who don't even believe God wrote a word of truth for us?" My question to you is who are you speaking of me? This sure doesn't sound like me or anyone else on this forum. I think everyone here believes that God has given us the word of truth!
I know I promised this to be the last part, but I have just a wee bit more. Please forgive me!
Q. If they believed the bible was the written word of God, why didn't they use the manuscripts God used and just make simple changes to the language?
A. Again, not knowing their motive, I cannot answer this one. But if these men truly believed the bible was the written word of God, I would have to believe that there would be no need to for them to even "make simple changes to the language."
Q. Why if they loved God and respected His word would they do what they did and now there are those of you who don't even believe God wrote a word of truth for us?
A. Once again, I have no way of knowing what their motives were.
Q. What joy is there in reading man's interpretation of what God may have said, or maybe not?
A. I'm sure no one would find any joy in that! If I were to read the preface of any bible and it said that the word written herein may be what God has said, or may not be what He said, the preface would be as far as I would read.
Q. How do we know that they (JW's, Mormons, Buddhists) don't have the truth?
A. If what they teach goes against what Paul preached and taught, their "truth" is to be rejected. ( Galatians 1:8-9)
Q. Why don't we just all make up our own religion and do what we want from whatever versions we choose to believe or maybe bits here and bits there from every version. Whatever suits us.
A. With all the various religions out there (too many to count), it's already been done! The reason why we have so many religions and denominations are because man cannot agree on what God's word says. Many of us here (including you and I) read the KJB but we disagree on what it says in certain places. Why is that? It's because English is such a general language. Hebrew also is a general language. But not so with Greek. Greek is such an exact language to where it makes it almost impossible to come up with different conclusions as to what the text is saying.
Well, I think you have somewhat misunderstood me about what I believe. Your comment that I "don't seem to believe the ancient writings have been handed down without errors" is simply an assumption on your part. I am not sure how you come to that conclusion from my comments, but I can tell you that I do believe the ancient writings (Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic) have been handed down without error.
I believe the ancient writings of scripture are completely free from error. However, the KJB or any other English translation or version are not the ancient writings, and there is no perfect English translation/version. I will attempt to answer your questions, but I also have a few of my own.
First, to answer your questions:
Q. If God didn't write one true version of His word for us to have then who did?
A. According to the definition of the word version, I don't believe God wrote any version at all. However, we do have God's perfect word in the original languages. It's through various English translations (including the KJB) where we run into problems.
Q. How do we know right from wrong if we can't trust what is written?
A. Human beings know right from wrong before they learn to read. As for us believers, it is God's Spirit that puts it on our hearts to know right from wrong. We don't need a bible to know right from wrong. Those in OT times didn't have a bible to read. They knew right from wrong.
Q. Since the authors of these versions have said they were only attempting to modernize the language of the KJB, which is why the comparison is made to the KJB, why did they almost exclusively use different ancient writings then weren't used for the KJB?
A. Unless you can tell me which authors you are speaking of and share with me their exact words and motives, I am not sure how to answer this question.
Hi Jesse: I'm not sure what posts you are reading or others about my belief on this subject so I am going to state it right now. I am capitalizing for emphasis, not yelling at anyone. I know misunderstandings can happen.
I DO NOT BELIEVE TRUE CHRISTIANS, WHO USE OTHER VERSIONS OF THE BIBLE AND NOT THE KJB EXCLUSIVELY, ARE DESTINE FOR HELL. THY ARE MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN THE LORD AND I LOVE THEM DEARLY.
The reason I make these posts is because I want them to see the danger of using these versions because it has been proven by a simply comparison to the KJB that they have made changes in it's doctrine that are, not only incorrect, but dangerous for the soul. Let me give one, perfect example of this and anyone who uses these versions should, I believe, pray and even fast and ask God if they should use them.
Matthew 24:36King James Bible
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matthew 24:36 New International Version
"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
Do you see by how adding "nor the Son" changes the whole meaning and diminishes the deity of Christ.
Readers reading this verse in the KJB wonder, how can this be that Jesus doesn't know but only God. The reason He isn't mentioned is because He is God so, of course, He does know. But the modern versions, instead of leaving it alone and letting Christians read and study it out for themselves just add "nor the Son" which not only diminished the deity of Christ but is an out right lie. This can't possibly fall into the category of "just making the words more modern." I choose not to use versions that so blatantly change the doctrine of the Holy Ghost and puts lies right into the verses. This is only one of the many changes made in these versions that affect doctrine.
Hello Momsage. I know you've directed your comment to Bro. Jesse, but your Matthew 24:36 reference alerted me. I realize that you are trying to show the differences between the KJB & other modern versions, but on that reference, which you stated correctly as a comparison, I would ask, what do you make of Mark 13:32?
I find that even if a modern Bible version 'appears' to have not quoted a verse correctly, sometimes there is another verse in that Bible that reinforces the Truth elsewhere (maybe not the exact words, but the Truth of the subject). The problem we have with the various Bible versions lies not simply in an intentional mistake to mislead others, but on their source manuscripts/fragments from which they are derived. And to properly investigate the matter at that level would go beyond most of us lay people. We might only be able to make a decision from those who are properly qualified to do so and have proven their expertise in the past. GBU.
Usually they leave out important verses that also imply Jesus and God are one. Here is one example:
Matthew 18:11 King James Bible
For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
In the NIV and most other new versions: This verse has been eliminated. Are the words of this verse so hard to understand that the whole verse had to be erased? No they are not, so why was it cut out? This action, again, diminishes the deity of Christ and there are many more.
Dear Christian: Please don't ignore what has happened. You know that the devil hates anything and everything of God. Perhaps, in my opinion, he knew he would never be able to stop God's children from reading the bible so he replaced it instead. The translation of the KJB, the words were to old fashioned and it was to hard to understand. So he moved on men to rewrite the KJB with false wording and doctrine so when Christian's became so busy with life they could read a version that was easier to read and understand. Is it worth it to you to have Christ looked down on as divine so you don't have to read; ye or thou, etc.? I sincerely believe that 2 Timothy 2:15 is one of the most important verses for any christian to take to heart and obey but please remember "the word of truth" can only be talking about the KJB because the new versions hadn't been thought of yet.
To be fair, I don't think that the KJB should be the sole source in determining which translations should be avoided. The KJB itself is a translation. Whatever is used in determining the accuracy of the KJB should be the same thing used in making such determinations with other translations/versions. If I'm not mistaken, I think you mentioned that you believe God wrote the KJB?
I do not believe God wrote it. It is a translation that was commissioned by king James. None of the men who translated the KJB made such a claim. However, I do believe that the bible (in its original languages) was inspired by God and was perfect at its completion. So, I believe we had the perfect word of God long before the KJB came along. Again, the KJB is a translation, and if we're going to try and determine which translation is good or which translation is bad, we should not be making that determination by using the KJB as the authoritative source. The scripture in their original languages should be the only source in determining which translation/s should not be trusted. Again, the KJB is a translation, not the authoritative source.
In closing, I do take 2 Timothy 2:15 to heart. Thank you for sharing that verse. You mention that "the word of truth" can only be talking about the KJB because the new versions hadn't been thought of yet.
My response to that would be that this verse is not talking about the KJB or any other English translation for that matter. As I mentioned earlier, we already had the perfect inspired word of God to study long before the KJB was even published. Yes, we are to rightly divide the word of truth, but by "rightly dividing the word of truth," nowhere are we told to take the KJV and compare it to other versions and toss them out because they are worded differently than the KJB.
Thank you for clarifying your belief and I am glad to hear that you don't believe that way. However, I'm sort of confused in that if you don't believe this way, why would you tell someone that they "make a good point about people who use these versions not being true Christians?" Wouldn't you agree that a person who is not a true Christian (Born of God's Spirit) is destined for Hell? I just don't get how that's a good point for someone to say that a person who uses another version of the bible is not a true Christian?
I have read a majority of your posts, not all, but most of them I have read so I have somewhat of an understanding where you're coming from on this subject. As for the verse comparisons you have provided ( Matthew 24:36), I will have to ponder on that one for a bit. Right now, I don't see how it diminishes the deity Christ. Again, I have never read the NIV so this is the first time I have seen this verse that you have shared.
The KJB is what I have been studying from for several years and what I see Jesus saying is that only His Father knows the day and the hour. Not even Jesus knows. We both agree that Jesus is God, but He is not God the Father, and Jesus said only His Father knows the day and hour. Also, the verse brother Chris has provided ( Mark 13:32) would be a good verse to take a look at.
As for Matthew 18:11, was that verse left out intentionally by the translators to deceive, or was it left out because of some of the older Greek manuscripts that they were using did not have that verse?
Hi Adam: There are several points I'd like to address in your comment. I am very much against the "KJB only" people who are mean and condemning. That just isn't right behavior for a christian and I never said that I believe as they do in any of my posts. I do believe when a christian is convicted by the Holy Ghost to do or not do anything, no matter what it is, and they disobey their soul is in trouble with God.
This is your quote, "Some can be fanatical like a man-made religion centered around man's opinion. Could this show a lack of trust in God in his ability to use other translations for his Glory? " Yes and no. Yes in that no fanatical opinion should be used to form a religion. If, and I may be wrong about this, you consider my continuing to address this subject as fanatical, I do it to give another opinion as opposed to so many that endorse these uninspired versions and that isn't fanatical. No in that these other versions are NOT inspired by the Holy Spirit so do not glorify God. Can't you see that just by the way they leave out giving Glory to Jesus when they could give Him glory?
2 Timothy 2:15 really comes into play here. If christians would just study for themselves to see which version is God's the NIV wouldn't be the best selling bible right now. So sad. The great and almighty God protected the purity of every word that was written from the beginning to 1611 when the Holy Ghost moved on the authors to put them together as He wanted it to be. The proof is in the pudding, as they say, the KJB always gives honor to the Father and the Son but just seeing the examples I gave in my last comment proves that the modern versions don't.
Why would the Holy Spirit change His mind and leave out parts of verses like Matthew 18:11 "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost." is left out or in Luke 4:8 leaving out "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." or Ephesians 3:14 "For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," NIV " For this reason I kneel before the Father, ESV "For this reason I bow my knees before the Father." What is your response to this?
The "walking in the park" example you gave was incorrect. These verses didn't just rearrange the words they left the words, edifying Christ, OUT. How do you think these versions glorify God when they are throwing His Son under the bus? I know that the KJB authors added books, chapters and verses but if that is the way it is written then that is the way God wanted it done. You have to believe, as I do, that either the Holy Ghost was in complete control of the writing of the KJB 1611 or you do not. To me it's that simple. I have a long list of scripture comparisons of the KJB to several popular modern versions and it's more then enough to think either God's Holy Spirit inspired the KJB only or He is a God who is dissatisfied with His original bible and wants it done over and over and over again. The NIV claimed that it only replaced old fashioned words with modern ones, but in the end it came up 64,000 words shorter then the KJB and had 3600 changes that affected doctrine like the examples I gave above.
Ask yourself, why are you so adamant about supporting the modern versions? There is good in them, wherever they truly copy the KJB, but the rest is corrupt, so why eat the poison with the good. Do you think the poison in these versions isn't going to hurt you? Let me tell you a story: A young boy was nagging his father because he wanted to go see a worldly movie with his buddies. His father said no because of the cussing and immodest women in it but the son said there was just a little in it and he really wanted to see the movie so he kept nagging his dad to let him go. After awhile the dad said let's forget about the movie for now and go bake a chocolate cake. The son was all for it. In the kitchen the father and the son brought out all the delicious ingredients for the cake; milk, flour, sugar, eggs, baking chocolate, etc. and made the delicious creamy batter for the cake. The son was ready to bake it but the father said, "wait" there is one more ingredient to add so he gave his son a 1/4 teaspoon and told the boy to go out to the garden and fill it with dirt and bring it in to him. The son was very puzzled but he went and got the dirt. When he brought it in his father said okay add it to the batter and then we can bake it and have some delicious chocolate cake. "No dad" the son said, that would ruin it. I'm not going to eat a cake with dirt in it. "Well" the father said "its just a little bit and it won't show once you stir it in and you won't be able to taste it, probably." The son still refused and then the father made his point. "Son" your adamant about not putting a pinch of dirt in your cake but are willing to put dirt into your heart and mind by watching, "just a little bit" of worldliness in a movie. The son understood and agreed so dad took him swimming instead. Do you see my point, why watch the movie when you can go swimming with dad? God Bless :)
Oh and don't leave you are making people think and reread the Bible which I think Jesus want us all to do.
As for the different bibles versions I think you are 100% correct, yet you don't go far enough, and if I get band from here so be it, In the other so called bibles you mention they deny the deity of Jesus. There are may other examples one can find. They also change LORD to god in places. To diminish his authority as the one true GOD.
If one uses the bibles that deny the deity are they not denying Jesus and in turn loosing there salvation by breaking the commandment thou shall take no other god before me.
When you remove entire sentences and change words or remove words them meaning gets changed,
When the KJV was translated as in any translation one has to use words in that language that means the same thing as the original. The KJV is the most widely use version in the world, where ever you go in the world there is English. Jesus said go and spread my message "word" to the world, so Jesus, Holy Sprit must have know then, (GOD being the beginning and the end) that the English language would spread to every part of the world, therefore they were inspired by the Holy Spirt to wright the KJV 1611. You can find in the Bible that the Bible is pointing or leading you to this Bible.
Sorry I had to add this my characters ended on 666 so maybe you should not have read this or I shouldn't have written? Is this a sin to think like this?
Hi SeanPaul: Thanks for responding to my post. Even though this site is a KJB site no one has ever answered me before, I think, when I have talked about these corrupt books. First thing I'd like to tell you is that in the Christian world the number 666 is just a number between 665 and 667. It has no power over us and can't influence our spirituality in any way. We have the power of the Holy Spirit of GOD, so the things of the devil can't come against us, like I said it's just a number. Also, no you won't get band from this site if you talk about what you believe as long as it is clean and not name calling. You make a good point about people who use these versions not being true Christians and I agree with you for those you have been made to see the truth in this. If they ignore the warnings or just don't accept what is right in front of their eyes, then they will be held accountable, however, I do think that those who have not been made aware of the spiritual errors in these books they are innocent until they do know. Because of social media and preachers using these books, people are bombarded with the constant lie that these are good. So if you know someone who is using these bad books, may I make a suggestion. Pray for them and show them a gentle, good spirit, which you probably already do. Try not to be gruff. I did a comparison post of the KJB and the NIV but it was a long time ago so I'm going to do another one. The bible says that the road to heaven is a straight gate and on a narrow path so I believe as time runs down to the rapture God's church will be a peculiar people in the way we worship together, the way we only use the KJB, and other things that will definitely set us apart and we may be persecuted for our differences, for being on that narrow road. So as God prepares His church let's pray that God's will can be done in the lives of our loved one, etc. that we pray for that they will be with us. God Bless :)
Now people are so confused with so many versions out there they are desperate enough to ask some stranger on YouTube.
I know I'm what a lot of people call "KJB only" and in a sense I am but I don't believe people are condemn to hell if they use the modern versions. Their salvation does not hing on that. But I strongly believe they could be lead into believing false doctrine which could harm their walk with God, eventually leading to destruction. I went to a non-denominational church once and really enjoyed it until the pastor told me he didn't believe the KJB was written by God, his bible was the NIV. I stop going.
Here are just three examples of corrupt verses compared to the KJB: Matthew 18:11 KJB "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost." In the NIV and ESV: The verse is eliminated. It isn't there. A verse that speaks in plain, easily understood English that shows that Jesus is the Messiah, was eliminated. Luke 4:8: " KJB "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." NIV: "Jesus answered, "It is written: Worship the Lord your God and serve him only." ESV: "And Jesus answered him,"It is written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve." Ephesians 3:14 KJB: "For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," NIV " For this reason I kneel before the Father, ESV "For this reason I bow my knees before the Father," (Again, diminishes the deity of Christ.)
I know it is between a christian and the Lord what bible versions they choose to use but I would think they would want the one God choose to give His children. I believe it is part of my respect for God"s truth to tell the good of the KJB and the harm of the modern versions. I emphatically believe the KJB is the Holy Ghost inspired Bible and meant for His children to trust and love. God Bless ;)
God Bless :)
I realize that it wasn't you who said that those who read other bibles are not true Christians, but whoever said this, you seemed to agree with them as you said "You make a good point about people who use these versions not being true Christians."
How is that a good point? And who actually said this? I tried finding those words written by someone but had no luck. I'm sure someone must have said it since you agreed with them.
I still don't see how someone would not be considered a true Christian based on what Bible they read. A Christian who uses a different Bible is just as saved as the person who only uses the KJB.
I have not read the NIV so I am in no position to answer your questions about the NIV. Also, I read what Adam posted and I didn't have any issue with anything he said. Perhaps he might respond to you (if the Lord leads him to do so). If not, and if you are open to it, maybe I can give my thoughts.
Blessings to you also!
I haven't "read" the NIV either because just looking at the examples I have seen where the deity of Christ is most certainly diminished I would never use it and I'm not just talking about the NIV, almost all popular modern versions follow each other and give the same interpretations as the NIV. Some verses are repeated so the men who put the NIV and other versions together decided they knew better than the Holy Spirit and that it didn't need to be repeated. I don't know how these supposedly christian men can think they know better then the Holy Spirit. Some even believe no bible was written by God at all but, if not, then that brings us down to having to trust men rather then God for our knowledge of who God is, what He thinks of us, who is Jesus, etc. Chaos.
I'm very open to your comments and to continue this discussion. May I ask if the KJB is the bible you use? God Bless :)
Yes, you already answered and stated your position. We came to an agreement and I have moved on and forgotten about because I thought we were done with that conversation. But since you are bringing it back up, please allow me to reshare your exact words to SeanPaul:
You said to him, "You make a good point about people who use these versions not being true Christians and I agree with you for those you have been made to see the truth in this."
Now you are telling me that I "really didn't understand" what you were saying, but your statement was quite clear to me as to what you were agreeing with, or at least what you thought was a "good point."
And no, I did not think that you agreed with someone who said Christians who use bible versions other than the KJB are in sin because that's not what you said. What you seemed to agree with was that these people were not true Christians if they read any other Bible than the KJV.
Please reread your exact words which I have quoted. I'm not sure how else to interpret what you said. If that's not what you meant and you simply made a mistake by telling SeanPaul that he made a good point about those who read different bibles not being true Christians, then that's fine, let's move on!
Blessings!
I agree with you about it being a ridiculous idea to think that someone who reads a different version of the bible other than the KJB would not be considered a true Christian. I quoted your exact words when you said this person made a good point by saying that those who read different versions of the bible are not true Christians, so I hope you understand why I would question you on that. There's a difference between agreeing with someone who says new versions are bad for believers and agreeing with someone who says those who use new versions are not true believers. When I read your words, it showed me that you were agreeing with the latter.
However, you have clarified and made clear your belief on this, and we both agree that it WAS NOT a good point. I am happy to know you don't believe that way. To answer your question, yes, the King James is the bible I use. I trust it to be a good translation, although not a perfect translation. I don't believe there are any perfect English translations. There are a couple other bibles that I trust just as much as I trust the KJB.
As far as these men who put together the NIV and you saying, "you don't know how these supposedly christian men can think they know better than the Holy Spirit," I can't respond to that as I have no way of knowing what was in the hearts of those men, although I do have my doubts that they honestly thought they knew better than the Holy Spirit. I hope I'm not just taking your words too literally. I tend to do that at times!
I am also open for discussion. Do you have any questions you would like to ask me? I can tell you up front that I'm one of those that does not believe the KJB was written by God. I also don't believe one can make a fair assessment on the accuracy of any English bible translation by using the KJB as their authoritative source of comparison. First, one would have to determine the accuracy of the KJB? How would one do that?
Blessings!
QUESTIONS: If God didn't write one true version of His word for us to have then who did? or did anyone? How do we know right from wrong if we can't trust what is written since you don't seem to believe the ancient writings have been handed down without errors? Since the authors of these versions have said they were only attempting to modernize the language of the KJB, which is why the comparison is made to the KJB, why did they almost exclusively use different ancient writings then weren't used for the KJB? Their justification for this is because the manuscripts were older but age has nothing to do with truth. If they believed the bible was the written word of God why didn't they use the manuscripts God used and just make simple changes to the language? Why if they loved God and respected His word would they do what they did and now there are those of you who don't even believe God wrote a word of truth for us. I know for myself I wouldn't be able to get along without the supernatural word of God as a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. ( Psalm 119:105) It has kept me close to God and helped me grow in Him for 56 years and I know it will until I am in His presence for eternity. What joy is there in reading man's interpretation of what God may have said, or maybe not. Maybe Jesus isn't His only begotten son? Maybe Jesus was created and isn't a part of the trinity. Maybe there isn't a Trinity at all. This is what Jehovah Witnesses believe. How do we know that they don't have the truth? Or maybe the Mormons or the Buddhist or the etc., etc. Why don't we just all make up our own religion and do what we want from whatever versions we choose to believe or maybe bits here and bits there from every version. What ever suits us. Don't think I am being sarcastic, if man wrote the bible then these are legitimate questions and thoughts. God Bless :)
PS. If I've misunderstood you in any way I'm sorry but this is what I read in your comment.
(Part 4, and final part): I'm not going to promise this time as I've learned my lesson!
Q. If you believe that God wrote the KJB, who wrote the bible/s that was/were already in existence before 1611?
Q. Also, if God did write the KJB, which version of the KJB did He write? Was it the original 1611 because there have been several revisions to the 1611. What the revisions? Some say that the revisions and changes are just grammatical errors and such. But with God being perfect, would there be grammatical errors at all if He wrote it?
Momsage, I do appreciate your questions. I also appreciate and respect your zeal for the King James Bible, even though we don't agree on who wrote it and its complete accuracy. It is still the bible I choose to study. I also read the Greek text (Textus Receptus) and there are differences that I have found from the Greek text in comparison to the KJB. Would it be wrong of me to mark through a word in the KJB and replace it with the word the Greek text uses if the original text uses a different word?
Blessings to you in Christ Jesus!
Thanks for continuing on with this discussion. I was taught how to read Koine Greek and was given a copy of the Textus Receptus (Greek New Testament) during one of our class studies. We had 20 plus people in the class and the pastor who was teaching the class handed everyone in the room a copy to keep.
To this day, I do not know who purchased all those copies for the entire class. It wasn't the pastor. He told us that someone had purchased them for the entire class but the person wished to remain anonymous. I can sincerely say that what I learned in that class was a true blessing. I do refer to the Greek text quite a bit during my NT studies. It is just my personal choice to do so. That is the text I was referring to.
Personally, I wish it was a requirement for every person going into the ministry to master Biblical Greek before being ordained into the ministry. I don't think that we in the body of Christ would be in such a mess if that were the case.
As I'm sure you know, the New Testament was originally written in Greek. Praise God for that! Since the New Testament is mainly doctrine and teaching, I think it had to be an exact language, and with Greek being such an exact language, I don't think it could have been any other way!
May God continue to bless you also!
I will finish this discussion soon but, unfortunately, I'm very fatigued so I am going to spend the day in my recliner crafting rather then sitting at my desk. But praise the Lord for a beautiful day and with my recliner and the touch of the Lord I should be okay for tomorrow. This fatigue doesn't usually last more then a day, praise the Lord. I would like to ask you, have you found a conflict between the Creek and the KJB? If so please tell me what it is. Talk to you tomorrow. God Bless :)
No worries, I completely understand. Yes, recliners have to be one of the greatest inventions. I love mine. I wonder if it was a lazy person who came up with the idea?
As far as your question asking me if I have found conflict between the Greek (Textus Receptus) and the King James Bible, I'll just say that I have found several places in the KJB (NT) that could have been worded differently, places where a word from the Greek text has a different meaning than what was translated into English for us.
If you are asking me to share with you every single place in question, this is not something I can do in a short amount of time, but I am willing to share with you everything I have found as time permits. Perhaps we can start with Matthew first and work our way through Revelation. Or, if you have something else in mind, I am open, so please let me know.
I do hope you get some good rest, and with our current discussion, please take whatever time you need. I trust that you will get back with me as the Lord leads. Who knows, I'm not even sure if I'll be on here tomorrow!
God Bless!!!
Hey Jesse: How are you? I'm glad you are enjoying this discussion. It really encourages me to study even more. Recliners are indeed a wonderful invention. You made me laugh when you said maybe a lazy person invented it. :) I have to admit I would love to do a study with you comparing the KJB to the Texus Receptus, but it's a lot for me to ask, even though you volunteered, so I'll leave it up to you.
YOU: I believe the ancient writings of scripture are completely free from error." However, the KJB or any other English translation or version are not the ancient writings, and there is no perfect English translation/version.
ME: I'm sorry I made the wrong assumption about the original writings. I thought when you first said you didn't believe God wrote the bible you meant all the writings from the beginning. So sorry.
ME: If God didn't write one true version of His word for us to have then who did?
YOU: We do have God's perfect word in the original languages. It's through various English translations (including the KJB) where we run into problems.
ME: The Holy Ghost wrote the KJB inspiring the men who authored it. If not, then I guess the authors were just doing their best to write what they thought the original languages were saying and we just have to accept what they decided to write. But why should we? If the Holy Spirit kept the original writings pure why did He do that if they weren't going to be used any more? Why just let them fade into obscurity instead of using them so we have a pure English version for mankind? English is the second most spoken language in the world.
ME: How do we know right from wrong if we can't trust what is written? YOU: Is it the bible that teaches us right from wrong, or is it God's Spirit that convicts a person (both believer and non-believer) of what's right and what's wrong?
ME: Both. Man's conscience does convict him of right and wrong but that's not enough for him to come to salvation. Man, if he has a sense of what he is doing is wrong but enjoys it and doesn't want to quit he isn't going to. But then again, maybe his conscience is bothering him enough he looks to God for help and what God says about what is troubling him. I just hope he uses the KJB.
YOU: If the KJB is used as the source to compare all other bibles for truth, what do you use to check the KJB for accuracy and, I must ask you, what manuscripts did God use? ME: The original writings that the Holy Ghost had kept pure: the Masochistic text and the Texus Receptus.
ME: Why if they loved God and respected His word would they do what they did and now there are those of you who don't even believe God wrote a word of truth for us. I know for myself I wouldn't be able to get along without the supernatural word of God as a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. YOU: You speak of "those of you who don't even believe God wrote a word of truth for us?"
ME: I'm so sorry, I wasn't thinking of you or anyone on this site, I was thinking of my X pastor, although my wording is wrong. Sorry.
YOU: If you believe that God wrote the KJB, who wrote the bible/s that was/were already in existence before 1611? Also, if God did write the KJB, which version of the KJB did He write? Was it the original 1611 because there have been several revisions to the 1611? ME: God chose the final version of the KJB that was produced because that is the one He wanted. I don't know why He allowed grammatical errors in the first one. Perhaps to test our faith in His word.
YOU: Would it be wrong of me to mark through a word in the KJB and replace it with the word the Greek text uses?
ME: If the KJB differs from the Creek I hope you will do that study with me. As for marking out words, I kind of think that's between you and the Lord. The Lord knows 99% of us can't read the Masochistic text or the Texus Receptus but He knew we would need an English version since English is the second most spoken language in the world so He gave use a translation we can trust and it was trusted for centuries until some men, like in the story I'm posting next, thought we needed one written in modern English. I believe you said you use the KJB mostly, so I guess I'm kind of preaching to the Choir except you believe it wasn't written by God, you don't believe we have a bible we can trust to be inspired by the Holy Spirit, is that right? The authors used the manuscripts accepted by God not the ones rejected by the Church fathers. I think I answered all your questions. If I missed one, please let me know.
God Bless You.
(Part 2):
Thanks for clarifying who were speaking of when you said, "those of you who don't even believe God wrote a word of truth for us?" I had no way of knowing that you were speaking singular (your ex-pastor) as the words "those of you" indicate plural. I'm glad to hear you weren't speaking of anyone here.
As to your question, yes, I do mostly use the KJB. I don't believe it was written by God. Please allow me to respond to where you said "you (myself) don't believe we have a bible we can trust to be inspired by the Holy Spirit, is that right?
No, that's not right. I trust that the bible in its original languages was inspired by God and can be trusted. If you're only referring to English translations, I have said in previous posts that there are a few English bibles I trust to be good translations (but not perfect).
Last question: I asked that if God did write the KJB, which version of the KJB did He write? You replied that "God chose the final version of the KJB that was produced because that is the one He wanted." Which version, and how do you know He wanted that one?
It's good to know that we both read and study KJB. We just disagree on it being a "perfect" translation. I will share with you why I believe there is no perfect English translation and how I come to this conclusion through studying the (NT) scriptures from a Biblical Greek standpoint. I am not prepared to go through the OT as I have not studied from the Septuagint, and I know very little Hebrew.
This will take some time, so please be patient with me. I promise you that what I share will not come from the internet, but from my own personal study. I will share the differences I've found between the English and the Greek Text (in this case, the KJB). I only ask that whatever I share with you that you please study it out on your own to come up with your own conclusion. I'll start with Matthew and (Lord willing) work through Revelation.
Blessings to you in Christ!
(Part 1):
Yes, you've answered all my questions. Thank you so much for that. I do have a couple more questions though. You mentioned a "Masochistic text" twice. I don't think there is such a thing. Are you are referring to the Masoretic Text? Masochistic has to do with masochism.
You mention a "pure English version for mankind." I am assuming you believe that version to be the KJB? We know that the last book of the bible was written around 95AD. No other prophecy or scripture has been written after that. So, between 95AD and 1611 when the King James was published, if we believe that God has kept His word pure, and with there being other English bibles that were used by English speaking believers before 1611 (before the KJB), why would you not hold the same view of those bibles as you do the KJB? Would it be feasible to believe any of the bibles that preceded the KJB were pure English versions?
Your answer to my question about how a person knows right from wrong got me to thinking. I asked if it was the bible or God's Spirit that convicts a person (believer or non-believer) of right or wrong. I was thinking God's Spirit alone, but you said both. After thinking about it, and the example you shared, what you said makes sense and I agree. However, you described a man who is unsaved, and his conscience is bothering him enough that he looks to God for help and what God says about what is troubling him. You also said that you just hope he uses the KJB. (I did get a chuckle out of that one!)
But my question to you is; if an unsaved man is involved in sin and is convicted of his sin, and his conscience is bothering him enough to where he looks to God for help, why would he need a bible at all? Would he even know where to look? Would he even be able to understand what he is reading in his natural state?
Recliners are great. Mine helped my back heal.
We needed to put all of our living room furniture in storage for our remodel. My recliner was kind of worn and a bit broken, so we put it behind our garbage cans for the next dump run. I was going to get a new one. Well, after sitting in regular chairs for two weeks my back was aching and spasming really painfully. I knew I needed to sit in a recliner and my new one would not arrive for 8-10 weeks. So, needless to say, the old recliner got pulled out from behind the garbage bins and put under the canopy of our outdoor make-do kitchen area. So, I am keeping it there until the new one arrives and we can move everything back into the living room!
I had not had spasm like that since 2020, so it reminded me of how bad my back was then and how much God heals us, not all in the same way, but my back was pretty well rehabbed until this episode. So Lazy-Boy has made my life easier and less painful. I am grateful for this invention more than ever!
(Part 3):
Hopefully, I have answered all your questions. Before I ask my questions, I just want to commend you on the 56 years of studying God's word. I also have spent many years in His word. I have never shared how many years on this forum because that is something I just don't feel the need to share. I have my reasons or not sharing that. However, I do agree with you fully that it is through God's word that spiritual growth comes from. In fact, I believe the next step after salvation is growth. Peter tells us in 2 Peter 3:18 "But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
If I were to pick one verse in the bible, this is the verse I would pick as to what would be the message for believers today. Though we have a multitude of things that we like to do in reference to the Lord, the things that we know are important (at least to us), grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That's a command! It is written in command form in the Greek text.
And no, I don't think you were being sarcastic at all. Your questions were fair to ask.
Now, for my questions:
Q. What version did God write?
Q. Is it the bible that teaches us right from wrong, or is it God's Spirit that convicts a person (both believer and non-believer) of what's right and what's wrong?
Q. If the KJB is used as the source to compare all other bibles for truth, what do you use to check the KJB for accuracy?
Q. Since you asked, "why didn't they use the manuscripts God used," I must ask you what manuscripts did God use?
Q. You speak of "those of you who don't even believe God wrote a word of truth for us?" My question to you is who are you speaking of me? This sure doesn't sound like me or anyone else on this forum. I think everyone here believes that God has given us the word of truth!
I know I promised this to be the last part, but I have just a wee bit more. Please forgive me!
(Part 2):
Continuation of your questions:
Q. If they believed the bible was the written word of God, why didn't they use the manuscripts God used and just make simple changes to the language?
A. Again, not knowing their motive, I cannot answer this one. But if these men truly believed the bible was the written word of God, I would have to believe that there would be no need to for them to even "make simple changes to the language."
Q. Why if they loved God and respected His word would they do what they did and now there are those of you who don't even believe God wrote a word of truth for us?
A. Once again, I have no way of knowing what their motives were.
Q. What joy is there in reading man's interpretation of what God may have said, or maybe not?
A. I'm sure no one would find any joy in that! If I were to read the preface of any bible and it said that the word written herein may be what God has said, or may not be what He said, the preface would be as far as I would read.
Q. How do we know that they (JW's, Mormons, Buddhists) don't have the truth?
A. If what they teach goes against what Paul preached and taught, their "truth" is to be rejected. ( Galatians 1:8-9)
Q. Why don't we just all make up our own religion and do what we want from whatever versions we choose to believe or maybe bits here and bits there from every version. Whatever suits us.
A. With all the various religions out there (too many to count), it's already been done! The reason why we have so many religions and denominations are because man cannot agree on what God's word says. Many of us here (including you and I) read the KJB but we disagree on what it says in certain places. Why is that? It's because English is such a general language. Hebrew also is a general language. But not so with Greek. Greek is such an exact language to where it makes it almost impossible to come up with different conclusions as to what the text is saying.
One more short post, I promise!
(Part 1):
Well, I think you have somewhat misunderstood me about what I believe. Your comment that I "don't seem to believe the ancient writings have been handed down without errors" is simply an assumption on your part. I am not sure how you come to that conclusion from my comments, but I can tell you that I do believe the ancient writings (Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic) have been handed down without error.
I believe the ancient writings of scripture are completely free from error. However, the KJB or any other English translation or version are not the ancient writings, and there is no perfect English translation/version. I will attempt to answer your questions, but I also have a few of my own.
First, to answer your questions:
Q. If God didn't write one true version of His word for us to have then who did?
A. According to the definition of the word version, I don't believe God wrote any version at all. However, we do have God's perfect word in the original languages. It's through various English translations (including the KJB) where we run into problems.
Q. How do we know right from wrong if we can't trust what is written?
A. Human beings know right from wrong before they learn to read. As for us believers, it is God's Spirit that puts it on our hearts to know right from wrong. We don't need a bible to know right from wrong. Those in OT times didn't have a bible to read. They knew right from wrong.
Q. Since the authors of these versions have said they were only attempting to modernize the language of the KJB, which is why the comparison is made to the KJB, why did they almost exclusively use different ancient writings then weren't used for the KJB?
A. Unless you can tell me which authors you are speaking of and share with me their exact words and motives, I am not sure how to answer this question.
Hi Jesse: I'm not sure what posts you are reading or others about my belief on this subject so I am going to state it right now. I am capitalizing for emphasis, not yelling at anyone. I know misunderstandings can happen.
I DO NOT BELIEVE TRUE CHRISTIANS, WHO USE OTHER VERSIONS OF THE BIBLE AND NOT THE KJB EXCLUSIVELY, ARE DESTINE FOR HELL. THY ARE MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN THE LORD AND I LOVE THEM DEARLY.
The reason I make these posts is because I want them to see the danger of using these versions because it has been proven by a simply comparison to the KJB that they have made changes in it's doctrine that are, not only incorrect, but dangerous for the soul. Let me give one, perfect example of this and anyone who uses these versions should, I believe, pray and even fast and ask God if they should use them.
Matthew 24:36King James Bible
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matthew 24:36 New International Version
"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
Do you see by how adding "nor the Son" changes the whole meaning and diminishes the deity of Christ.
Readers reading this verse in the KJB wonder, how can this be that Jesus doesn't know but only God. The reason He isn't mentioned is because He is God so, of course, He does know. But the modern versions, instead of leaving it alone and letting Christians read and study it out for themselves just add "nor the Son" which not only diminished the deity of Christ but is an out right lie. This can't possibly fall into the category of "just making the words more modern." I choose not to use versions that so blatantly change the doctrine of the Holy Ghost and puts lies right into the verses. This is only one of the many changes made in these versions that affect doctrine.
I find that even if a modern Bible version 'appears' to have not quoted a verse correctly, sometimes there is another verse in that Bible that reinforces the Truth elsewhere (maybe not the exact words, but the Truth of the subject). The problem we have with the various Bible versions lies not simply in an intentional mistake to mislead others, but on their source manuscripts/fragments from which they are derived. And to properly investigate the matter at that level would go beyond most of us lay people. We might only be able to make a decision from those who are properly qualified to do so and have proven their expertise in the past. GBU.
Usually they leave out important verses that also imply Jesus and God are one. Here is one example:
Matthew 18:11 King James Bible
For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
In the NIV and most other new versions: This verse has been eliminated. Are the words of this verse so hard to understand that the whole verse had to be erased? No they are not, so why was it cut out? This action, again, diminishes the deity of Christ and there are many more.
Dear Christian: Please don't ignore what has happened. You know that the devil hates anything and everything of God. Perhaps, in my opinion, he knew he would never be able to stop God's children from reading the bible so he replaced it instead. The translation of the KJB, the words were to old fashioned and it was to hard to understand. So he moved on men to rewrite the KJB with false wording and doctrine so when Christian's became so busy with life they could read a version that was easier to read and understand. Is it worth it to you to have Christ looked down on as divine so you don't have to read; ye or thou, etc.? I sincerely believe that 2 Timothy 2:15 is one of the most important verses for any christian to take to heart and obey but please remember "the word of truth" can only be talking about the KJB because the new versions hadn't been thought of yet.
God Bless :)
(Part 2):
To be fair, I don't think that the KJB should be the sole source in determining which translations should be avoided. The KJB itself is a translation. Whatever is used in determining the accuracy of the KJB should be the same thing used in making such determinations with other translations/versions. If I'm not mistaken, I think you mentioned that you believe God wrote the KJB?
I do not believe God wrote it. It is a translation that was commissioned by king James. None of the men who translated the KJB made such a claim. However, I do believe that the bible (in its original languages) was inspired by God and was perfect at its completion. So, I believe we had the perfect word of God long before the KJB came along. Again, the KJB is a translation, and if we're going to try and determine which translation is good or which translation is bad, we should not be making that determination by using the KJB as the authoritative source. The scripture in their original languages should be the only source in determining which translation/s should not be trusted. Again, the KJB is a translation, not the authoritative source.
In closing, I do take 2 Timothy 2:15 to heart. Thank you for sharing that verse. You mention that "the word of truth" can only be talking about the KJB because the new versions hadn't been thought of yet.
My response to that would be that this verse is not talking about the KJB or any other English translation for that matter. As I mentioned earlier, we already had the perfect inspired word of God to study long before the KJB was even published. Yes, we are to rightly divide the word of truth, but by "rightly dividing the word of truth," nowhere are we told to take the KJV and compare it to other versions and toss them out because they are worded differently than the KJB.
Blessings to you in Christ Jesus!
(Part 1):
Thank you for clarifying your belief and I am glad to hear that you don't believe that way. However, I'm sort of confused in that if you don't believe this way, why would you tell someone that they "make a good point about people who use these versions not being true Christians?" Wouldn't you agree that a person who is not a true Christian (Born of God's Spirit) is destined for Hell? I just don't get how that's a good point for someone to say that a person who uses another version of the bible is not a true Christian?
I have read a majority of your posts, not all, but most of them I have read so I have somewhat of an understanding where you're coming from on this subject. As for the verse comparisons you have provided ( Matthew 24:36), I will have to ponder on that one for a bit. Right now, I don't see how it diminishes the deity Christ. Again, I have never read the NIV so this is the first time I have seen this verse that you have shared.
The KJB is what I have been studying from for several years and what I see Jesus saying is that only His Father knows the day and the hour. Not even Jesus knows. We both agree that Jesus is God, but He is not God the Father, and Jesus said only His Father knows the day and hour. Also, the verse brother Chris has provided ( Mark 13:32) would be a good verse to take a look at.
As for Matthew 18:11, was that verse left out intentionally by the translators to deceive, or was it left out because of some of the older Greek manuscripts that they were using did not have that verse?
[Comment Removed]
Hi Adam: There are several points I'd like to address in your comment. I am very much against the "KJB only" people who are mean and condemning. That just isn't right behavior for a christian and I never said that I believe as they do in any of my posts. I do believe when a christian is convicted by the Holy Ghost to do or not do anything, no matter what it is, and they disobey their soul is in trouble with God.
This is your quote, "Some can be fanatical like a man-made religion centered around man's opinion. Could this show a lack of trust in God in his ability to use other translations for his Glory? " Yes and no. Yes in that no fanatical opinion should be used to form a religion. If, and I may be wrong about this, you consider my continuing to address this subject as fanatical, I do it to give another opinion as opposed to so many that endorse these uninspired versions and that isn't fanatical. No in that these other versions are NOT inspired by the Holy Spirit so do not glorify God. Can't you see that just by the way they leave out giving Glory to Jesus when they could give Him glory?
2 Timothy 2:15 really comes into play here. If christians would just study for themselves to see which version is God's the NIV wouldn't be the best selling bible right now. So sad. The great and almighty God protected the purity of every word that was written from the beginning to 1611 when the Holy Ghost moved on the authors to put them together as He wanted it to be. The proof is in the pudding, as they say, the KJB always gives honor to the Father and the Son but just seeing the examples I gave in my last comment proves that the modern versions don't.
Why would the Holy Spirit change His mind and leave out parts of verses like Matthew 18:11 "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost." is left out or in Luke 4:8 leaving out "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." or Ephesians 3:14 "For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," NIV " For this reason I kneel before the Father, ESV "For this reason I bow my knees before the Father." What is your response to this?
The "walking in the park" example you gave was incorrect. These verses didn't just rearrange the words they left the words, edifying Christ, OUT. How do you think these versions glorify God when they are throwing His Son under the bus? I know that the KJB authors added books, chapters and verses but if that is the way it is written then that is the way God wanted it done. You have to believe, as I do, that either the Holy Ghost was in complete control of the writing of the KJB 1611 or you do not. To me it's that simple. I have a long list of scripture comparisons of the KJB to several popular modern versions and it's more then enough to think either God's Holy Spirit inspired the KJB only or He is a God who is dissatisfied with His original bible and wants it done over and over and over again. The NIV claimed that it only replaced old fashioned words with modern ones, but in the end it came up 64,000 words shorter then the KJB and had 3600 changes that affected doctrine like the examples I gave above.
Ask yourself, why are you so adamant about supporting the modern versions? There is good in them, wherever they truly copy the KJB, but the rest is corrupt, so why eat the poison with the good. Do you think the poison in these versions isn't going to hurt you? Let me tell you a story: A young boy was nagging his father because he wanted to go see a worldly movie with his buddies. His father said no because of the cussing and immodest women in it but the son said there was just a little in it and he really wanted to see the movie so he kept nagging his dad to let him go. After awhile the dad said let's forget about the movie for now and go bake a chocolate cake. The son was all for it. In the kitchen the father and the son brought out all the delicious ingredients for the cake; milk, flour, sugar, eggs, baking chocolate, etc. and made the delicious creamy batter for the cake. The son was ready to bake it but the father said, "wait" there is one more ingredient to add so he gave his son a 1/4 teaspoon and told the boy to go out to the garden and fill it with dirt and bring it in to him. The son was very puzzled but he went and got the dirt. When he brought it in his father said okay add it to the batter and then we can bake it and have some delicious chocolate cake. "No dad" the son said, that would ruin it. I'm not going to eat a cake with dirt in it. "Well" the father said "its just a little bit and it won't show once you stir it in and you won't be able to taste it, probably." The son still refused and then the father made his point. "Son" your adamant about not putting a pinch of dirt in your cake but are willing to put dirt into your heart and mind by watching, "just a little bit" of worldliness in a movie. The son understood and agreed so dad took him swimming instead. Do you see my point, why watch the movie when you can go swimming with dad? God Bless :)
as to your part 2
Oh and don't leave you are making people think and reread the Bible which I think Jesus want us all to do.
As for the different bibles versions I think you are 100% correct, yet you don't go far enough, and if I get band from here so be it, In the other so called bibles you mention they deny the deity of Jesus. There are may other examples one can find. They also change LORD to god in places. To diminish his authority as the one true GOD.
If one uses the bibles that deny the deity are they not denying Jesus and in turn loosing there salvation by breaking the commandment thou shall take no other god before me.
When you remove entire sentences and change words or remove words them meaning gets changed,
When the KJV was translated as in any translation one has to use words in that language that means the same thing as the original. The KJV is the most widely use version in the world, where ever you go in the world there is English. Jesus said go and spread my message "word" to the world, so Jesus, Holy Sprit must have know then, (GOD being the beginning and the end) that the English language would spread to every part of the world, therefore they were inspired by the Holy Spirt to wright the KJV 1611. You can find in the Bible that the Bible is pointing or leading you to this Bible.
Sorry I had to add this my characters ended on 666 so maybe you should not have read this or I shouldn't have written? Is this a sin to think like this?
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