This is going to be a bit repetitive but repition can be a very good thing, I think.
When considering any question from scripture, we MUST approach it from the vantage point that Christ, God Himself, is the author of the ENTIRE Bible. And, in the original languages, every word in the Bible is from the very mind and mouth of Christ Himelf.
No one would argue, I hope, that the words of Jesus recorded for us in the Bible that He spoke while on earth are indeed from the very mind and mouth of Christ Himself. Or that when we read "thus saith the LORD", that the words associated with that phrase are indeed from the very mind amd mouth of God Himself.
But what about every word that Luke or Paul or Jeremiah or Amos wrote, or any other word that the human scribes wrote in the Bible? Are they from the very mind and mouth of God Himself and carry exactly the same authority and weight as any word declared to have been spoken by Christ Himself, God Himself?
Indeed they do! "For the prophrcy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:21 and "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" 2 Timothy 3:16.
So therefore we must compare scripture with scripture, throughout the ENTIRE Bible, with the mind set that every word, every verse, every chapter in the ENTIRE Bible is from the mind and mouth of God Himself, if we hope to come to truth about any doctrine or practice that we claim to be from the Bible. Any thing less will lead us further away from truth.
You are entitled to your opinion, but your accusation of what you say I am doing is wrong. You began this thread and you asked "But what about every word that Luke or Paul or Jeremiah or Amos wrote, or any other word that the human scribes wrote in the Bible?"
Since you brought up Paul, I responded with a simple question asking what your thoughts were on what Paul was saying in the verses I provided. The reason I asked was because I see Paul clearly stating that he was speaking for himself. It was a simple question, that's all. I kind of wished I had never askedI asked for your thoughts, you've shared them, so I guess we're done.
I agree with most of what you are saying, however, if "every word, every verse, every chapter in the ENTIRE Bible is from the mind and mouth of God Himself," as you have said, how should we view what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 7:12, 1 Corinthians 7:25, and 2 Corinthians 11:17?
In 1 Corinthians 7:12, Paul says, "But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away."
So here, Paul says (he) speaks, not the Lord. He says we don't have anything from the Lord on this, but here's what I (Paul) teach in the churches about these relationships.
In 1 Corinthians 7:25, Paul says, "now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord:"
Some of the men were saying, "Well, I have a daughter who's never been married, and you know how corrupt this town is and the men that are in it, and I don't want my daughters to come near those immoral men of the city." What are we to do?
Paul says I have no commandment from the Lord, but I'm going to give my judgment, as one that has obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.
In 2 Corinthians 11:17, Paul says, "That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting." Was this Paul speaking for himself?
Just curious as to you view these verses. I understand these to be Paul's own words. Any thoughts? thanks!
While I'm not sure I can exegete these verses exactly and won't attempt to do that here, I'm very convinced that the words Paul used in these verses are EXACTLY the words that God wanted Paul to use.
So, like every word in the Bible, this language is indeed the WORD OF GOD HIMSELF.
Also, I am convinced that God has written the Bible in such a way that tests us as to how we approach and interpret His Word, the Bible.
God also lays out for us in the Bible certain principles that we are to use in interpreting the Bible. And if we do not follow these principles or if we introduce principles from our own mind that are not found in the Bible, we will not come to truth.
So God may very well have used the language in these verses as a test: Is every word in the ENTIRE Bible truly THE WORD OF GOD. Or is it not.
And of course EVERY word in the Bible, in the original languages, is indeed EXACTLY, the word that God Himself chose to use.
Thanks for responding and sharing your thoughts. I'm not sure an exegesis on those three verses I pointed out would be necessary as they seem pretty straight forward as to what Paul was saying. If the words Paul spoke in 1 Corinthians 7:12, 1 Corinthians 7:25, and 2 Corinthians 11:17 were the exact words that God wanted him to use (as you are convinced of), by Paul's very own words, he seemed to indicate otherwise.
In 1 Corinthians 7:25, Paul says "I'm going to give (my) judgment, as one that has obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful." Here, he began by saying that he had no commandment from the Lord, and so he gave his own judgment. God didn't give Paul any commandment or give him the exact words to speak. Was Paul at liberty to do so? I believe so. Paul said he had obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful. So, Paul was at liberty to speak for himself, as one having obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful. God trusted Paul to speak. God trusted Paul to be faithful, even during the times where Paul was speaking his own words.
Again, I do thank you for sharing your view on those verses. However, we do see Paul's words differently. It's not that important that we are in agreement on this. I was just wanting to see what you thought about those verses.
As far as there being "certain principles that we are to use in interpreting the Bible," I am not sure what those principles are? There is only one principle that I believe and that is that the infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture to be Scripture itself.
I totally agree with you where you said, "if we introduce principles from our own mind that are not found in the Bible, we will not come to truth." That is true! It can also be said that we in the body of Christ many times will not come to truth even when we are introducing principles from the bible!
I believe we have everything we need to know about history, prophecy, and doctrine contained in the pages of the Bible, from Genesis through Revelation. It's been said by many (Including myself) that the bible is the word of God. I've said it before and I don't see anything wrong with saying that because it does contain the words spoken by God, words spoken by Jesus, and words spoken by the apostles. However, not every single word that we read in the bible is from the mouth of God Himself.
You ask me how I determine which verses in the bible are truly the word of God. As you have said, we have the words of Jesus recorded for us. Those words are not hard to find. We also have recorded for us the words that God spoke through the prophets. And then we have places in the bible where there are words spoken by others that have been recorded for us, words that were not spoken by God. For instance, God would not accuse His Son of blasphemy, but we read in the bible the very words spoken by those who were accusing Jesus of blasphemy. When the crowds yelled, "Crucify Him, Crucify Him," were those God's words or the words of an angry crowd? I am just using these as examples to show that not every single word in the bible is from the mouth of God Himself.
We could go back and forth with this for a long time, and this would be what some might call "circular reasoning," between the two of us, so I honestly don't see any reason to do so, unless you feel the need to do so? I simply asked for you to share your thoughts on the three verses I gave, not the entire bible. It seems fairly clear to me that Paul was speaking for Himself, not speaking the "exact" words that God gave him to speak. If you are convinced otherwise, then there's not much more we can discuss about those verses.
You say that the Bible "CONTAINS" the Word of God. That is far different than recognizing that the ENTIRE Bible "IS" the Word of God.
And in doing so you are relegating different verses, passages, chapters, or even books of the Bible as having different levels of authority.
The Book of Esther for example does not even mention God. Yet every word and phrase in the Book of Esther is EXACTLY the word and phrase that God Himself chose to be written by the human author. Just as is every word in the Bible that Paul or Luke or Isaiah or Moses wrote. We don't need to get into the mind of the human scribes.
And God says this very clearly in 1 Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the WILL OF MAN: but holy men of God spake as they were MOVED by the Holy Ghost." And this applies not just to certain parts of the Bible, but to the ENTIRE Bible as we read in 2 Timothy 3:16 "ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
Christ Himself identifies Himself intimately with His Word, the Bible, as we read in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
So there is no argument here. God Himself is the author of every word, every verse, every chapter, every book of the entire Bible, the Word of God. It is not necessary for us to understand how this was done. Just that it was done as God declares.
I would never want to hold that the Bible merely CONTAINS the Word of God. That, in effect, strips the Bible of its authority. When, in fact, every word in the Bible, IS the Word of God Himself. And is the reason that we are commanded to "compare scripture with scripture" throughout the ENTIRE Bible.
Rev 22:18,19 warns us:
"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
This is going to be a bit repetitive but repition can be a very good thing, I think.
When considering any question from scripture, we MUST approach it from the vantage point that Christ, God Himself, is the author of the ENTIRE Bible. And, in the original languages, every word in the Bible is from the very mind and mouth of Christ Himelf.
No one would argue, I hope, that the words of Jesus recorded for us in the Bible that He spoke while on earth are indeed from the very mind and mouth of Christ Himself. Or that when we read "thus saith the LORD", that the words associated with that phrase are indeed from the very mind amd mouth of God Himself.
But what about every word that Luke or Paul or Jeremiah or Amos wrote, or any other word that the human scribes wrote in the Bible? Are they from the very mind and mouth of God Himself and carry exactly the same authority and weight as any word declared to have been spoken by Christ Himself, God Himself?
Indeed they do! "For the prophrcy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:21 and "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" 2 Timothy 3:16.
So therefore we must compare scripture with scripture, throughout the ENTIRE Bible, with the mind set that every word, every verse, every chapter in the ENTIRE Bible is from the mind and mouth of God Himself, if we hope to come to truth about any doctrine or practice that we claim to be from the Bible. Any thing less will lead us further away from truth.
You are entitled to your opinion, but your accusation of what you say I am doing is wrong. You began this thread and you asked "But what about every word that Luke or Paul or Jeremiah or Amos wrote, or any other word that the human scribes wrote in the Bible?"
Since you brought up Paul, I responded with a simple question asking what your thoughts were on what Paul was saying in the verses I provided. The reason I asked was because I see Paul clearly stating that he was speaking for himself. It was a simple question, that's all. I kind of wished I had never askedI asked for your thoughts, you've shared them, so I guess we're done.
I agree with most of what you are saying, however, if "every word, every verse, every chapter in the ENTIRE Bible is from the mind and mouth of God Himself," as you have said, how should we view what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 7:12, 1 Corinthians 7:25, and 2 Corinthians 11:17?
In 1 Corinthians 7:12, Paul says, "But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away."
So here, Paul says (he) speaks, not the Lord. He says we don't have anything from the Lord on this, but here's what I (Paul) teach in the churches about these relationships.
In 1 Corinthians 7:25, Paul says, "now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord:"
Some of the men were saying, "Well, I have a daughter who's never been married, and you know how corrupt this town is and the men that are in it, and I don't want my daughters to come near those immoral men of the city." What are we to do?
Paul says I have no commandment from the Lord, but I'm going to give my judgment, as one that has obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.
In 2 Corinthians 11:17, Paul says, "That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting." Was this Paul speaking for himself?
Just curious as to you view these verses. I understand these to be Paul's own words. Any thoughts? thanks!
Blessings to you!
While I'm not sure I can exegete these verses exactly and won't attempt to do that here, I'm very convinced that the words Paul used in these verses are EXACTLY the words that God wanted Paul to use.
So, like every word in the Bible, this language is indeed the WORD OF GOD HIMSELF.
Also, I am convinced that God has written the Bible in such a way that tests us as to how we approach and interpret His Word, the Bible.
God also lays out for us in the Bible certain principles that we are to use in interpreting the Bible. And if we do not follow these principles or if we introduce principles from our own mind that are not found in the Bible, we will not come to truth.
So God may very well have used the language in these verses as a test: Is every word in the ENTIRE Bible truly THE WORD OF GOD. Or is it not.
And of course EVERY word in the Bible, in the original languages, is indeed EXACTLY, the word that God Himself chose to use.
Thanks for responding and sharing your thoughts. I'm not sure an exegesis on those three verses I pointed out would be necessary as they seem pretty straight forward as to what Paul was saying. If the words Paul spoke in 1 Corinthians 7:12, 1 Corinthians 7:25, and 2 Corinthians 11:17 were the exact words that God wanted him to use (as you are convinced of), by Paul's very own words, he seemed to indicate otherwise.
In 1 Corinthians 7:25, Paul says "I'm going to give (my) judgment, as one that has obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful." Here, he began by saying that he had no commandment from the Lord, and so he gave his own judgment. God didn't give Paul any commandment or give him the exact words to speak. Was Paul at liberty to do so? I believe so. Paul said he had obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful. So, Paul was at liberty to speak for himself, as one having obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful. God trusted Paul to speak. God trusted Paul to be faithful, even during the times where Paul was speaking his own words.
Again, I do thank you for sharing your view on those verses. However, we do see Paul's words differently. It's not that important that we are in agreement on this. I was just wanting to see what you thought about those verses.
As far as there being "certain principles that we are to use in interpreting the Bible," I am not sure what those principles are? There is only one principle that I believe and that is that the infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture to be Scripture itself.
I totally agree with you where you said, "if we introduce principles from our own mind that are not found in the Bible, we will not come to truth." That is true! It can also be said that we in the body of Christ many times will not come to truth even when we are introducing principles from the bible!
Blessings!
Let me ask you this, if I may.
How do you determine which verses in the Bible are truly the Word of God?
Do the words of Jesus recorded for us in the Bible have more authority than other parts of the Bible that are not direct quotes of God Himself?
What is God teaching in 2 Peter 1:21 and 2 Timothy 3:16?
I believe we have everything we need to know about history, prophecy, and doctrine contained in the pages of the Bible, from Genesis through Revelation. It's been said by many (Including myself) that the bible is the word of God. I've said it before and I don't see anything wrong with saying that because it does contain the words spoken by God, words spoken by Jesus, and words spoken by the apostles. However, not every single word that we read in the bible is from the mouth of God Himself.
You ask me how I determine which verses in the bible are truly the word of God. As you have said, we have the words of Jesus recorded for us. Those words are not hard to find. We also have recorded for us the words that God spoke through the prophets. And then we have places in the bible where there are words spoken by others that have been recorded for us, words that were not spoken by God. For instance, God would not accuse His Son of blasphemy, but we read in the bible the very words spoken by those who were accusing Jesus of blasphemy. When the crowds yelled, "Crucify Him, Crucify Him," were those God's words or the words of an angry crowd? I am just using these as examples to show that not every single word in the bible is from the mouth of God Himself.
We could go back and forth with this for a long time, and this would be what some might call "circular reasoning," between the two of us, so I honestly don't see any reason to do so, unless you feel the need to do so? I simply asked for you to share your thoughts on the three verses I gave, not the entire bible. It seems fairly clear to me that Paul was speaking for Himself, not speaking the "exact" words that God gave him to speak. If you are convinced otherwise, then there's not much more we can discuss about those verses.
You say that the Bible "CONTAINS" the Word of God. That is far different than recognizing that the ENTIRE Bible "IS" the Word of God.
And in doing so you are relegating different verses, passages, chapters, or even books of the Bible as having different levels of authority.
The Book of Esther for example does not even mention God. Yet every word and phrase in the Book of Esther is EXACTLY the word and phrase that God Himself chose to be written by the human author. Just as is every word in the Bible that Paul or Luke or Isaiah or Moses wrote. We don't need to get into the mind of the human scribes.
And God says this very clearly in 1 Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the WILL OF MAN: but holy men of God spake as they were MOVED by the Holy Ghost." And this applies not just to certain parts of the Bible, but to the ENTIRE Bible as we read in 2 Timothy 3:16 "ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
Christ Himself identifies Himself intimately with His Word, the Bible, as we read in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
So there is no argument here. God Himself is the author of every word, every verse, every chapter, every book of the entire Bible, the Word of God. It is not necessary for us to understand how this was done. Just that it was done as God declares.
I would never want to hold that the Bible merely CONTAINS the Word of God. That, in effect, strips the Bible of its authority. When, in fact, every word in the Bible, IS the Word of God Himself. And is the reason that we are commanded to "compare scripture with scripture" throughout the ENTIRE Bible.
Rev 22:18,19 warns us:
"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
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