Bible Discussion Thread Page 2

Thanks Jaz,

Just Scripture,

God bless,

RLW

Isaiah 13:12 , who is this man that God will make ? Ezekiel 44:3 all the way through to Ezekiel 48:22 , who is this prince ? As I said previously , it's so frustrating but , we have to agree to disagree, Christ is God manifest in the flesh because he was not born through lust but by the power of God's Holy Spirit and was filled without measure , of God's Holy Spirit . At least I can assume that we can all agree on that . As God said at the burning bush , I will be who will be , I will manifest in whom I will manifest . Jesus is not the first manifestation of God , others received of God's Holy Spirit in measure , Christ received God Holy Spirit without measure , therefore Christ truly is that manifestation spoken of at the burning bush , Christ is Emmanuel , he says : he that has seen me has seen the Father , there's no arguement as to what scripture says , we all read the same Bible . Sadly it's the interpretation . We shall all know the Truth soon enough , looking at what is going on in the middle East it's going to be quite soon I think . Can't wait !

Hi Jaz. Not sure to whom you are directing this comment & particularly those two Scripture portions, so apologies if you are writing to brother Ronald.

My two bits worth for your comment: In Isaiah chapter 13, we read of God's denunciation of Babylon. When we get to verse 12, "I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir", the scene of that coming destruction is so great, that men (i.e. fighting men) would be so scarce to find, that if a man can be found alive, his life's worth would be akin to fine gold. That's my understanding - so am not sure what yours is.

And to Ezekiel 44:3 onwards. "Who is this prince?" I understand that the Rabbis generally believe that he refers to the coming Messiah. However, when we consider the passage, we note that the outer East Gate was kept shut and only the LORD God could enter through it. But the prince had access via "the porch of that gate". As well, we read in Ezekiel 45:22 that "upon that day (Passover), shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin offering". Also, this prince has sons to whom he gives gifts of inheritance ( Ezekiel 46:16). So clearly, this prince can never refer to the Messiah, Who would neither offer a sin offering nor have sons, rather to another person of high rank post-captivity (e.g. Zerubbabel, Nehemiah, or another 'prince among the people').

You did also state that "Christ is God manifest in the flesh because he was not born through lust but by the power of God's Holy Spirit and was filled without measure". That certainly is a great statement that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, but even this can be misunderstood, as we can read it as 'Jesus was endued with the fullness of God's Spirit at His Birth & thus became God in the flesh'; or, 'Jesus came forth from within God's Person to take on human flesh, always endued with God's Spirit'. Maybe you could clarify that for us. Thank you & blessings.

Please forgive me Chris , when you ask me to clarify ? I can't , because to me it is already clear , I can't add any more to what I have said and I can't add anymore to the scriptures that both Ronald and I have recently posted on this subject because to me they are clear . I don't know how to clarify what is already clear to me . I'm so sorry , I genuinely don't know how to clarify . It seems so obvious to me and I'm sorry that I can't make it any more obvious to you or anyone else . Please don't be offended , I'm not trying to be awkward , I can only say what is in my heart .

Thank you Jaz for your comment. Actually, I wasn't asking for any further clarification (i.e. an extra explanation), but just to clarify which of those two statements correctly reflects your belief. Why I asked this, was because your statement, "Christ is God manifest in the flesh because he was not born through lust but by the power of God's Holy Spirit and was filled without measure", can be taken a couple of ways (at least).

Therefore, I suggested two ways: "Jesus was endued with the fullness of God's Spirit at His Birth & thus became God in the flesh"; or, "Jesus came forth from within God's Person to take on human flesh, always endued with God's Spirit". I think you can see how someone might be confused as to what you are saying/believing, so was simply seeking clarification as to which one of those two (or, even another meaning), is your belief. But if you don't wish to proceed with this, then that's okay with me - thank you. GBU.

I'm sorry Chris but clarify was the word you used . I've replied to a post of S Spencer's , that post might help you understand what I was saying a bit better .

God was in Christ , in , reconciling the world to Himself . The Spirit of God , God is a Spirit , God's Holy Spirit , ( remember that known unto God are all His works from the beginning ) was in Christ , Christ was a separate living human , Christ knew who his Father was and what had been asked of him , he was different from the lamb slain from the foundation of the world in that respect . The lamb could not willingly submit to God's will for it , Christ did , he learned obedience by the things that he suffered , when did he suffer these things that brought him to a state of complete obedience ? On the cross ? , no , his sufferings in his 30 years of previous human life on earth with a family in a community , those years are the years that he suffered as a human , the kind of things that we humans all still go through every day , those sufferings brought him to a state of obedience , obedience that started by being told to go to John and be baptized by him . He learned obedience by the things he suffered . His own human sufferings brought him to the state of obedience and therefore to the cross . He learned , just like we have to . We learn what ? What do we learn by our sufferings ? What is the lesson that is common to us all ? The lesson that Jesus learned ? Trust , faith , surrender , obey . These are our lessons to and if we learn them then they will lead us to our cross also . Jesus said : take up the cross and follow me . Trust , faith , surrender , obey . He learned those lessons by the things that he suffered , in his life before his ministry and during his ministry . I hope I don't need to clarify as I don't see how I can put it any plainer .

Page 1.

Yes Jaz, I did use the word 'clarify', but was looking for your 'clarification' concerning those two statements: i.e. to which one you believed was true and not necessarily for a detailed explanation. Nevertheless, that's not important now, particularly after reading your discussions with GiGi, where you clearly stated that you did not need to further explain yourself, especially to her important questions, which would have helped us know where you stand on this matter.

Ordinarily, if someone told me (as you wrote earlier), "Christ is God manifest in the flesh", I would find complete agreement with that statement, for the Scripture says so ( 1 Timothy 3:16). Yet, in my limited exposure to varying views of people on certain Scriptures, I've found that one can believe that Christ is God manifest in the flesh (as God entering Earth's realm in Christ His Son), yet actually mean that 'after Christ was born into the world, God then entered Him (whether at birth, baptism, or whenever), and so God manifested Himself in Jesus His Son only then. I think you can see the difference between the two, so I (we) were wanting to clarify which belief you held. But I won't press you any longer with that, as you've made it clear that you won't do so.

If I might address your two other points here: "he was different from the lamb slain from the foundation of the world in that respect". I detected you might have been referring to two lambs (an animal & that spoken of Christ). But the Scripture you quoted ( Revelation 13:8) only refers to Christ. Maybe you meant that an animal would not submit to God's Will (i.e. it would put up a struggle to be free), whereas Christ did not struggle and fully submitted to His Father. Yet, the Scripture only speaks of Christ so an animal could never apply in that verse.

Page 2. Jaz.

The other point: Hebrews 5:8,9. Unfortunately, I don't share your understanding, as you wrote, "those sufferings brought him to a state of obedience". If Jesus had to learn how to obey, through His sufferings in life & leading to the Cross, it implies that He had times of disobedience at various stages in His Life. We know that Jesus was perfect & sinless; why should these life's lessons teach Him how to obey when He was sinless & always obeyed?

Rather, when we look at both verses, 'obedience' wasn't a trait He had to learn (as how we sinners have to learn how to behave & obey). But He always obeyed His Father, so that when He "became the author of eternal salvation", the suffering He had to endure caused Him to cleave to His Father even more in unflinching obedience to His Will & thus showed His full suitability as a Sacrifice for sin. Obedience was not something Jesus had to learn to do, rather to put His Obedience to a very practical test through sufferings & identifying with us in ours & we in Him ( Hebrews 4:15, Hebrews 2:10,11). So Jaz, you have stated your points clearly here. Thank you.

Chris,

Here is a verse "I have said, Ye are gods; And all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, And fall like one of the princes."(Ps.82:6-7) Fullness of God in Christ makes us the children of the most High.

That's the Truth and Amen to it .