Bible Discussion Thread

 
  • Genny - 1 year ago
    Why do Bible Institutions make images of God when He clearly instructs us not to do that? Doesn't He call that idolatry? The Word of God clearly states God is a spirit, so isn't making an image a lie?
  • Jesse - In Reply - 1 year ago
    (Hebrews Part 29):

    Hebrews 11:13 - These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

    These all died according to faith. That's how it literally reads, which in the Greek means on the basis of faith. Not having received the promises.

    Think about it. They lived by faith. They leave their town and relatives. They wander through the wilderness suffering all the things they suffered. They lived in tents in the promised land, just to die and never see the promises. If I were one of them, in the human, right before I died, I would say "This is a bummer. I lived by faith my whole life and what did I get from it? Nothing!"

    But having seen them afar off, and were what? Persuaded! That's the word PEITHO, where our word faith comes from.

    Hebrews 11:17 - By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

    The phrase "only begotten son" is a phrase that is making reference to the only unique son, or the only son upon whom the promises apply.

    So, while he was being tested, he offered up Isaac. And it's only through Isaac. Remember Isaac is the promise of God, and Abraham and Sarah waited, and failed at trying to produce him themselves, and God miraculously produced Isaac. But then God says to Abraham, take Isaac your son, and by now he's a teenager. He's not a little child, so he has the ability to get free if he wants to.

    But Abraham takes Isaac up on the mountain because God says go and offer him as a sacrifice. Now right away, I would say that doesn't make sense. First you bring him in as the promise, and now you're telling me to sacrifice him? How could he inherit the promises, or there be descendants through him if I'm going to offer him as a sacrifice?
  • Jesse - In Reply - 1 year ago
    (Hebrews Part 32):

    Hebrews 12:1 - Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

    There is a technical point here I would like to share that's important:

    The first few words, "Let us lay aside," it sounds like it's a command or an encouragement. But in the Greek text, it's called an Aorist Participle, and it's literally translated "After having laid aside." It's not a main verb. It's not a command. It's not an encouragement. It's one of three conditions. And we'll see the main verb when we get into the end of Verse 1.

    And let us run. There's your main verb. It's the only verb in the first two verses. Let us run. That's an encouragement. It's called a Hortatory Subjunctive. We should run with patience. And the word patience is the word for endurance. It is the word HUPOMENO which means to remain under. It's the Greek word used for circumstances.

    The word race is the word AGONA. It's where we get our word agony from. With endurance, we should run the agony that is being set before us. The term set is a Present Participle which shows a continual setting down of the racecourse for us.

    This is not your typical track where you run in circles. This is picturing for us something that is like a marathon or cross-country race, where the racecourse is put down in front of us, piece by piece, while we're running. And we don't know the direction. We're just running!
  • Jesse - In Reply - 1 year ago
    (Hebrews Part 31):

    Hebrews 11:28 - Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

    By faith, not through faith, but by faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of the blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. That's what the blood over the doorpost did. It saved their households from the destroyer coming and killing their firstborn. God killed the firstborn of the Egyptians. By faith he did that.

    Hebrews 11:29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

    By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying, that is, attempting to do, were drowned. And you know the story about the Red Sea. I think it's kind of comical, because the children of Israel get down to the Red Sea, they've got the water in front of them, they look back over the hill, and here come the Egyptians chasing after them.

    What would you do? Moses did what anybody would do. He started to pray. And God says now is not the time to pray. Get moving. And God parted the water. And that was by faith. If you go back to the account, which one of those children of Israel made that water do that because "It was by faith?"

    It was God that did that. That's why it's called by faith. I have yet to see or hear of a power of positive thinking preacher tell someone to go out and part the waters. They'll part your money from your wallet, but that's about it!
  • Jesse - In Reply - 1 year ago
    (Hebrews Part 30b):

    Hebrews 11:19 Continued:

    Even the birth of John the Baptist, when Zacharias and Elizabeth were beyond the age of bearing children, the angel Gabriel comes and announces that they're going to have a child. Of course, Zacharias, when he hears this, he says how can this be? It's humanly impossible. And God says you'll be silent and unable to speak until these things happen.

    So, for nine months he was silenced and unable to speak until Elizabeth bears her son. And his tongue was loosed, and he began to speak praises and prophecy over the child. He says it was humanly impossible. That's what God does. He doesn't use man's strength.

    It's like Gideon. He was called upon to fight the Philistines. And 32,000 able bodied men came to sign up for the military. God said too many! Now how do you have too many? God put these 32,000 through two or three hoops and wound up with only 300 left. God says that's enough, so that everybody will know that it is God and not man!

    Why do we think that the more numbers we have in our movement or group is going to be more powerful for God than a few? God has always shied away from big numbers because then man can take credit for it.

    So, he received him back in a parable. You see, when Isaac said where's the sacrifice, in the Hebrew, when Abraham said to Isaac God will provide Himself a sacrifice, it was not He will provide for Himself a sacrifice, but that God would provide Himself as a sacrifice. The whole incident was a parable and foretold of the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. The word parable means to place alongside of.
  • Jesse - In Reply - 1 year ago
    (Hebrews Part 30a):

    Hebrews 11:19 - Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

    Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from where also he received him in a figure, or more literally a parable. PARABOLAY is the Greek word. The word accounting is LOGIZOMAI. It's an accounting term. He calculated that since Isaac was the promised son, and God wanted him to sacrifice him, that God was able to raise him from the dead. That's the only way that the promises are going to be fulfilled!

    And you know the story is that he went to kill Isaac and God stopped him. He says now I know that you hear my voice, and you are obedient. And there was an animal caught over in the thicket. Abraham had already told his son because his son says "Dad, where's the sacrifice?" Abraham tells him that God Himself will provide the sacrifice. And the animal was in the bushes. And he went and took the animal, which ended up being the sacrifice and not his son after all.

    You see, it was all by faith. You'll notice that all these presentations about faith are activities or incidences that have happened in people's lives that were beyond the human ability. That's the way God works. That's why God waited for Abraham and Sarah. He gave them the promise and waited for them to become elderly and unable to produce children themselves naturally, so that when God moved, it would be all of God, not of man. That's how God works!
  • Nsha - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Hello there,

    I do understand where you're coming from

    So for me, I look at the idea of what an image is. And an image is a representative of something whether it be a picture or other item: soft copy or in hard form.

    Let's look at it in a hard form.

    In 1 Samuel 5, spoke about a god called Dagon which the Philistine people created to worship.

    In 1 Samuel 7, spoke about a stone called Ebenezer, which Samuel set between two points as a reminder that God is our help.

    Now, with the two stories an image was created, but the form in which they were created determines the purpose behind each.

    What am I saying?

    If the purpose behind the image that you create is to worship it, then it becomes your idol.

    If the purpose behind the image created is to remind you of the goodness of God, which might bring you into worship and acknowledge the true and living God for who He is, then it's a symbol of who God is to you.

    It's like this too,

    I met in an accident, the car write-off. I took a picture of the vehicle, and placed it in my bathroom.

    Every morning for over 2 years once am in the bathroom I'll be singing, and I can't find enough words to express to God how grateful I am to be alive, mobile, in good health, and of sound mind. It is not that I worship the image my dear, but it is a symbol that reminds me that if God is for me, no weapon formed asked shall prosper. It brings me into worship with God.
  • Jgledbetter - In Reply - 1 year ago
    I feel that I have offended you by your tone in the responses you send. That was not my intent. Do you. I'll do my best to follow Jesus. God bless all of us to come to HIS truth and not ours--that includes me. Thank you for your time.
  • T-rex - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Hello- I've wondered the same before- what does the Bible say?

    I'm aware of 2 places mentioning the topic:

    Deuteronomy 5:8 - 5:10

    "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" Exodus 20:4 KJV

    Israelites made a golden calf and worshipped it. (idolatry. )

    The verse says no graven images, or any likeness to heaven (maybe including sky, clouds, angels, sun, light) and anything in the earth (like water, maybe fish, whales, sea life, and probably fire and hell)?

    It explains the reason in verse 5: " Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"

    This means you are not to make graven images and worship anything other than God- probably not idols of anything- including heaven, sky, and the sea or in the earth (hell?).

    If someone can commit idolatry by a representation of something can't that person also do it by actually looking at it? Like the sun, sky, stars, or things below Earth? I think so, but does it mean never go outside because you might see the sky? I think the context shows God doesn't want any other gods before Him- and not bow down or worship anything else.

    Watch out for the devil's tricks because he uses twisted verses to try to remove Christianity and its messages from society- for example people so fearful of Christmas being the wrong date on 25th that they want to boycott Christian activities altogether during the holiday despite people coming to Christ by it, or people removing crosses or symbols, or posters, or photos of Christian activities, memes, or positive messages online over this. That is a win for satan. I don't think taking pictures or having Christian reminders or Bibles with crosses is what God is against, but worshipping false gods.
  • Jgledbetter - In Reply - 1 year ago
    I disagree with your reasoning, but I don't want to debate. God is a spirit. The Earth below includes man. God is not white or black or any nationality, nor did he mean that man looks like Him. I believe His attributes, such as the five senses, are the way we are made in his image, able to think and conclude and choose (though our brain is limited), by His power to serve Him ... not physical attributes. But, okay. If you think it's the devil's trickery when God says not to make ANY images of HIM, so be it ... for you. Thank you for your response.
  • T-rex - In Reply - 1 year ago
    If you believe God is truly invisible then what is the concern with someone replicating an image "of HIM" since that would not be possible, unless the concern is idolatry by looking at blank paper or at a cloudless sky? Your response mischaracterized my comment which I hope was not intentional. In that same deceptive sentence you also wrote "God says not to make ANY images of HIM", but that's not what Exodus 20:4 says. Read it again.
  • Genny - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Because God told us not to make images of Him. If you believe, why not obey what He commands as much as you can? We are frail beings and our righteousness is as filthy rags without Jesus Christ, so the things we can do to please Him, shouldn't we be concerned with obedience and do those things? This is my last entry because brethren should not strive with one another. I simply wanted to hear your views on my previous questions. We want to be right, but the only way to do that is to follow God's commandments as they are written. It is not an accusation, but the truth. Don't we want to follow truth? A picture is an image. I enjoy your commentary. Why can't I ask questions for clarity as I learn? See verse 23 below:

    Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
  • Wheelz - In Reply - 1 year ago
    The bible never says not to make images. It clearly states in Exodus 20:4 any graven image. Graven image definition, from the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, is "a statue or image that people worship as a god or as if it were a god."

    Remember, when Moses wrote Exodus, there were no verses or chapters. Read verse Exodus 20:4 and verse 5 together, and you will understand that God is saying "Thou shalt not make to thee any graven image, &, so as to worship it."

    Ask yourself, Did Moses sin when he built the Ark? I mean, he sanctioned the cherubic forms above the mercy-seat, the brazen serpent, and the lilies and pomegranates of the golden candlestick.

    Solomon placed lions on the steps of his throne. He had palm-trees, flowers, and cherubim on the walls of the Temple, "within and without" (1Ki_6:29). Surely, Solomon was not in sin when he built the temple.

    So, an image of its self is not wrong, it's when it becomes a graven image, which means idol, that it becomes a sin.

    Psalms 115:4-7 and Psalms 135:15-17. Idols of silver and gold. Eyes that do not see, ears that do not hear, mouths that do not speak, feet that do not walk, they have no breath in them.

    Colossians 1:15 tells us that Jesus is the image of the invisible God. John 14:9, Jesus-speaking says, "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father"

    Having an image is not the sin, it's when it becomes a graven image, "idol of worship" is the sin.

    There is so much more to say on this topic, but running out of room. God Bless.
  • T-rex - In Reply - 1 year ago
    If you want to share a specific verse talking about "images" I would like to research it, but I'm not aware of that in my Bible. If you're not open to other believers' contributions about scripture then why post to others about it?

    The verses I found talk about physical idols and how that's bad, which is consistent with the 1st commandment. I recently visited a church that had a statue of Jesus in the pulpit area- I personally am not comfortable with that, because I have seen Catholics bowing down and worshipping statues like that before. However, I don't think God intends for everyone to throw away their cross necklaces, Bibles, Bible story books, Christian movies, and any other evidence of Christianity for fear something might potentially be idolized. Then replace it all with worldly images and movies? This is why I think the enemy is sometimes behind these efforts.

    Deut. 5:9 it says "Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me," For those who have a tendency to worship idols and feel uncomfortable with something potentially being an idol then that person should not have that item around.

    I've never seen anyone worshipping false gods by looking at a cross or picture of one, but serves as a reminder of who is Lord. God provided other physical reminders of HIM like rainbows and amazing creation. Ark and tablets were reminders. Cults worship the creation instead of the Creator, which is idolatry. That doesn't mean they should never go outside and appreciate the beauty of creation or take a picture, but just don't idolize and worship it. I don't think its right to take away a children's picture book of Bible stories and Christian movies and replace them with only secular filth. Or destroy all Jesus fish stickers. They help spread the gospel. Crosses are baked into our language. You used many cross "images" in your post by using the letter "T" many times. God bless you.
  • Azzan77 - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Genesis 1:27

    "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

    Blessings



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