Hello all.! Qs to anyone with an answer.! When God created Adam & Eve then they bore 2 "sons". By chapter 4 of Genesis when Cain left for killing his brother Able. Then it says..4:17, he knew a women that bore him a son. Were did this women come from??
The Bible is for our our spiritual instruction in righteousness. Seek therefore the truth.
A river goes out from Eden and it has a purpose. And this garden is a snapshot illustrating the fellowship of God with Man. The latter is Jesus Christ. the Word which was with God. God is uncreated being. Adam is created 'after our image'. So he bears relation to the Son. He is son of God. ( Luke 3.38) .So we have the garden to illustrate this truth.
"God planted the garden and set man and woman as representational examples so with one man's fall sin enters into the world etc", and "It is neither on earth or in heaven as literal minds would make of it".God framed the worlds with his word so this garden you need understand is a spiritual place. Your next question,'What is neither here on Earth nor there in Heaven? Are you referring to Eden? It is is in your inward parts-truth, Chris.
The word of God has sound,-voice of the Lord. It is a sign that it can be written. St Paul writes'Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart./And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward." The sign is 'within us' and if you could read the Bible as it should, this discussion would not have been necessary.
Lastly you write," in the past your use of "command numbers". I ask myself, 'where did these numbers come from'? You have made many such statements which leave my mind floundering.' Which is more nonsensical than believing 144,000 as specific number than allowing the 144 as a symbol to explain the believer who is blessed with all spiritual blessings in heaven and on earth? What is special about the number 12? It is associated with Jacob, Ishamael and with Jesus. Why is is given in so many places. Either you gather with Christ or you scatter them.
Thank you for your response Bennymkje. If I might refer to it now.
From what I gather concerning Adam & Eve & the garden, you do believe these people existed, but the garden "is a spiritual place" and "is a snapshot illustrating the fellowship of God with Man". I could understand the garden being that common ground where God & man fellowshipped, though I would probably use Genesis 1:28,29 and Genesis 2:15-19 where God speaks to Adam as a more realistic account & example of their fellowship together. And so this would make Eden not some sort of spiritual place but a literal place where these people walked & fellowshipped. But if the real meaning of it is a spiritual place (as you infer), then I ask myself, 'how has this knowledge helped me understand what I'm reading and is it beneficial in some way?'
To Revelation chap 7: 144,000. "Which is more nonsensical than believing 144,000 as a specific number than allowing the 144 as a symbol to explain the believer who is blessed with all spiritual blessings in heaven and on earth?" Does the fact that verses 5 to 8 clearly specify the composition of this great number have any bearing on what you believe as the believer being blessed with all spiritual blessings? This is probably a prime example of how we read the Scriptures. So when reading this from you, the questions that arise are: why is 144 a symbol to explain the believer's spiritual blessings? Where in the Scriptures can we find support in such a manner for this number? How then do you interpret verses 5 to 8 describing the 12,000 numbered & sealed from the 12 tribes of Israel? Knowing that you have disconnected the physical Israel from any future fulfilment of prophecy, the 12,000 from the 12 tribes would then represent whom? Sorry to make this long, but wanted to find out how you arrive at such interpretations when the Bible is so specific in its narrative and any departure from it could very well lead us into error.
Not sure who this is meant for, (I think Benny) because I can't find where I read it, but here goes..Gods garden wasn't spiritual. Can't get a fig leaf (or whatever) to cover yourself in a spiritual garden. Or an animal for sacrifice for that matter.! I'm guessing your school/parents, didn't teach you to "Just say No".!! My prayers are w/you my child.! By that I do not mean you are "my" child. Merely, when judgement comes "you got some explaining to do Lucy".! Please, help me understand what makes you think that way. It is very confusing and will mislead ppl away from His truth.! May God bless & be with you & guide you to His truth ONLY.!! P.S. I know how to make a match burn twice & it is extremely painful. I can not imagine my entire body for eternity burning in agonizing pain.! Repentance is a good thing.!!
Since I am mentioned in your comment let me refer strictly respond to the garden of Eden part. God is a Spirit and he does not require human parents for the creation of Adam and Eve. The Spirit instructs us with the episode of Jacob in the house of Laban.(Gen.31.7-9) We can also pinpoint the garden was in the mid-heaven. A river went out from Eden to water the garden. Similarly the cattle conceived before the trough and the vision was his teacher. " And it came to pass at the time that the cattle conceived, that I lifted up mine eyes, and saw in a dream, and, behold, the rams which leaped upon the cattle were ringstraked, speckled, and grisled." God says the word and it is on a spiritual world and it is real. As John the Baptist say, "And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."(Jn3.9). If foolish teachers are blind to compare the passages as for an example shown here, they are spiritually blind..
Our main concern in life is to be followers of Christ and believe.! Knowing every inch of His word and the deep meanings, (in any langues) doesn't give us a ticket to heaven. Only JESUS does that. Without believing in Him & what He did for us we are, and always will be, NOTHING.! That is the only fact you need be concerned with.! All I'm saying on that. God bless & be with you all.!! Peace out my friend.
Hi Texsis. You are in the right thread. Just go to the top of it and you will find your question to anyone who cared to answer and from there you received a couple of responses and particularly exchanges between Bennymkje & myself.
And yes, the basis for correct understanding & interpretation of the Bible (otherwise, called biblical hermeneutics), does vary among its readers/students. Some (most) take a literal approach to it, while others a spiritual approach (i.e. biblical Truths are infused with other deeper hidden messages that God gave for us to receive). So, with this 'spiritual approach', one can take any Bible passage and do with it whatever one believes is the correct message from God to us; and so we end up with a variety of interpretations, which I believe are not consistent with what the writers understood and wrote under inspiration. Even the apostles, in their writings to the Churches, never adopted such 'deeper' teachings, whether taken from their references to the OT or from inspiration by the Holy Spirit to teach the churches for correct doctrine and conduct.
Gnosticism infiltrated the newly-formed Churches then, even as it does now. And 1 John is a particularly good example of a letter written to address these aberrant beliefs & to warn the fledgeling Church. Some of the gnostic teachings (meaning, 'relating to knowledge (gnosis), particularly esoteric mystical knowledge') were: knowledge is superior to virtue; the non-literal sense of Scripture is correct and could only be understood by a select few; evil in the world precludes God being the only creator; the incarnation is incredible (or, unbelievable), because Deity (the Godhead) cannot unite with anything material, e.g. a body of flesh; and there is no resurrection of the flesh (remember the Saducees?). These are just a few of their beliefs (as given in my study Bible notes). As the apostles believed & taught we too are required to be vigilant against such false teachings.
" we too are required to be vigilant against such false teachings"
Chris, we are also to be vigilant of teachings in our churches with certain pre-conceived notions so their culture tradions are preserved and their interpretations are in line with the policies of the government. Had churches approached the Bible as inerrant it would not have had nationalism, and other heresies.Slavery brought in the South ,doctrines to justify it, for example,
That's true Bennymkje, these other deviations from God's Word & misinterpretations are to be noted; but thankfully, not all believers instructed in the Word adhere to everything that is fed to them and there are still fellowships around that remain guarded from outward forces.
IF we are God's chosen..He will make/help us understand when we urnistly searchHis word. If we don't..well, I'm not on that lower rung so will pray for those to truly understand His word. Yet if they choose not to believe, that's on them. God made it simple when He sent Jesus to die for our sin. Except it or don't. We all have that chose! Satan will fight against it yet if we keep "believing in HIM.. reading, learning & praying..Heaven awaits us.! Thanks for responding & explaining how to find comments.
God is a Spirit and God sets the worlds framed by the word so God sets the world of the Spirit where faith is one language and one speech. We have our being and our daily lives among the ungodly. But Giod made us living souls. Truth is part of His gift. So we are to understand what the Spirit describes existing suprareal so whether you believe it or not it has its own existence. If Jonah could communicate with God from the belly of a great fish what is strange about Genesis 2:15-19? If truth cannot connect you with this world what religion are we talking about?
With regards to the 12 tribes of Israel and the number of 144,000 in Rev. ch.7 Israel is a hold all to explain the left behind church The Vision of the woman clothed with the sun gives us two parallel accounts of the woman running to the wilderness of her her place and the other to which God helps find refuge. The tag of time, times and half a time is the key to connect with the book of Daniel and it refers to the Jews. On the other hand the number of days given connects with the church. The church redeems themselves by stepping in place of the nation during the great tribulation, in the manner of Seth and intercession of Jesus Christ for the sinful world. How do we arrive at 144?
The everlasting Covenant in 7 days Gen.ch.1- 2.1-3 : the first four days refer to the heaven and the remaining on the earth. The believer in the Son has access to the blessings from both worlds. In the Father and in his Son. 4x3=12 gospel of God and in his Son makes up the number 12x12=144. God's promise to bless Abraham and ' thy seed' consequently uses this tag referring to Ishamal as well Jacob who is the heir of promise. 144,000 in Ch.7 does not refer to the nation of Israel but those from the left behind church having the DNA of faith. What does Israel truly mean? Those who prevailed over boith God and man. Is it not?
Thanks again Bennymkje. I don't think I could add much more; I was just trying to pin down how you interpret the Scriptures & the use of numbers.
You gave in your last paragraph, of the "first four days referring to heaven and the remaining (3) on the earth". So you then multiply 4 & 3 to give 12. Why not add 4 & 3 as an option? Is it because you need to arrive at 12, which then leads to 12x12=144? (Presumably, 12 is the Gospel of God and another 12 to His Son). And then that 144 becomes 144,000, not referring to Israel (which the angel takes great pains to clearly identify by each tribe), but to the left behind of the Church having the DNA of faith. Can you see why such arithmetic & number allocation becomes meaningless to anyone trying to follow this method of biblical interpretation? It clearly makes sense to you so we need to leave it that. Thanks again for your time.
What does 40 days in the Bible indicate? Or Three? The Spirit is specific to mention 'Moses was with God for 40 days and 40 nights? Exod.34.28. Jesus fasted for forty days before the Spirit led him to be tempted of the devil. He was seen for 40 days after he was risen? The sign of Jonah, Three days and three nights in the belly of a fish, must mean something is it not? I shall not explain further since I have already covered them. If every believer knew truth there would not be so many heresies and so many sects. Darkness was upon the face of the deep. "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."(Rev.22.11)
Ok Bennymkje, since you've shared again, I respond. You've quoted Exodus 34:28 (Moses' fasting), Matthew 4:2 (Jesus' temptation), Acts 1:3 (Jesus' Resurrection) to show the importance and connection to "40 days". Supposing I also add to those: Genesis 7:12 (Rain on the Earth), Numbers 13:25 (searching out the land), 1 Samuel 17:16 (Goliath's presentation), Jonah 3:4 (Jonah's cry); how would these other 40 mentions of mine figure in your interpretation? No connection at all, yet the number 40 is consistent so it must be important, shouldn't it?
Whereas Matthew 12:40 (Jonah in the fish's belly) does connect with Jonah 1:17. Why? Because the Lord Himself wanted to give the religious leaders the sign they sought. Jonah wasn't stuck in the belly because Jesus much later would be "in the heart of the earth". Jonah happened to be in the fish for that time and Jesus used that event to describe & prophesy to these leaders that He too would spend the same time in the tomb. The connection & understanding is clear, for Jesus had made it. But to maintain consistency with this, if I introduce 1 Samuel 30:12 (the young Egyptian who was starving for 3 days & 3 nights), then I destroy what sense and connection the Matthew & Jonah verses made to each other. I hope you can see why it is difficult for me, and likely others, to really understand your connections and interpretations.
Though I do agree with you on this: "If every believer knew truth there would not be so many heresies and so many sects"; and I would add, to "rightly divide the Word", so that Word would become much more precious & rich in every heart who hears it.
I shall merely add, four is a command number for the word become flesh. So soul of man is five. Trespass offering is one fifth of value added thereto. Man's ox and man is considered as one. It is his life.
Four cardinal numbers to indicate gospel is the same whether north south east or west is considered. Four gospels. four is also to indicate according to the word of God. Gen.6.3 has 120 years as a yardstick. 12x10 is not made up arbitrarily. Ten is a man's life. God sets the template of 12 into the life of man. We live thus according to the word of God, in his Son. Breaking down 120 does not contradict itself. 4x3x10.
Why did God give Decalogue and not 12x10? Ten is also number to indicate law of sin and death. The Law of the Spirit is a whole number Seven. In the will of God Israel was no more special than a Gentile. Only in his Son they become special, holy nation, peculiar people.
God has given us His Spirit and Jesus who of God has become wisdom for us. In the usage also the spirit ought to differentiate between a numeral from a tag used to indicate spiritual signiificance.
Generation of man is set against Generation of Jesus Christ. Mt.1.1 100 years have meaning as well as 1000.
You've thrown in a lot of numbers here Bennymkje, as you have also done in your other posts, without any indication as to how these numbers become command numbers or tags. Merely adding numerical values to various aspects of the Bible doesn't make the Bible any more meaningful, rather more convoluted and confusing. Maybe what you had written earlier is what I need to settle with: "I write not to make others understand according to their level of understanding but it is for the glory of my Lord." I would think that the Lord would be glorified if his saints understood what was given & returned praise to Him for His wonderful Word & those enlightened to bring meaningful Truth to their hearts. So again, thank you for your time with this, but I remain in ignorance as to how numerical values can be applied without any clear reference to their intended meaning (if any) & correct usage. GBU.
I agree with the line, 'And I would add, to "rightly divide the Word", I am sometimes guilty of writing down my thoughts as prompted by the Spirit, so I repeat words, not to mentions typos and what not. In small hours my mind keeps going so I write these first in the morning, in a somewhat 'dumping the load' and I need read it twice or thrice to understand myself and many a time it has opened my eyes to see what lay hidden. With one eye left and still holding on, God understands my spirit, and richly dividing the word must be done by the reader at times. Besides I write not to make others understand according to their level of understanding but it is for the glory of my Lord. Besides there is a great congregation out there among the cloud of witnesses, who shall understand perfectly well.
Dear friends in grace. This is a recurring question.
And it seems that many accept Adam and Eve as the first people. And I do not disagree with that. But I add that they were the first in Adam's line. They were the first in Jesus' genealogy. Then we also see that the question is no longer so relevant. Don't get me wrong now.
Because studies and discoveries of remains have been found from as far back as 6000 years. And there must have been other people or similar people on earth. Because if we think about the navel, the whole question is put in doubt. Did God who created man just do some experiment? Or did He have to know in advance that the navel would not turn out well in the long run. No, God has planned everything, but He regretted that he created man because everyone is intractable and they have shown themselves to go back and make the same mistake 70 times 7 equals 490 times. Here I think Jesus had a good margin, otherwise He would not have said it.
Adam had a function: To take care of the Garden of Eden, imagine he walked with God there in the Garden. If the whole earth was Garden as some say. Then we cannot ignore that Adam then again, is the first person that God made in His image. Therefore we must also add the spirit and soul not just the body. Remember God breathed life into Adam so he became a living spirit/soul. He did not do that with everyone who was born. It wasn't necessary. Adam became a living soul. And the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1 Cor:15-47
So believe in God and believe in the scripture. Hold on to the word that is clear enough. If one is willing to see things as it is written. Like all who think about God's word every day, we meet people who constantly want to discuss this subject. And do not imagine that they come from the good. Here the evil one is to sow doubt, to cause us to stumble. To misjudge the word of God. If there are matters we talk about that we have not really received light on, it is best to let it be. Christ love
Hello Texsis - nice to hear from you again. Hope you are doing well. Your question is a good one, though the Bible doesn't explicitly give us the answer. From what we do know (as stated in the Bible), Adam and Eve were without sin at their creation. And that implies not only were they completely innocent of anything that went against the Will of God, but their bodies were free of any defects, which would enable them to live forever. But they disobeyed God in rebellion to His Word & sin entered in and the effects of that sin & sin nature then passed onto Cain, Abel & Seth. And of course Adam & Eve had many other children, sons & daughters ( Genesis 5:4), who also would have inherited that sin nature.
Most folk generally accept that Adam & Eve & their descendants were the first and only humans created by God. Others who believe that God created other humans as well (before or after Adam) to show that the Adamic race mixed with these others also, don't base their belief on biblical revelation, but in fact go against it. Therefore, believing that Adam & Eve were the first & only in creation and that after they sinned, their years on Earth were numbered, it also meant that their bodies & internal organs began to show the signs of wear & limitations. But this deterioration would take place slowly over time (their lowering lifespans indicating this). Therefore, it may be valid to assume that their children (i.e. the many others during the lifetimes of Cain, Abel & Seth) would also have shortened lives and their genetic purity too would have altered marginally. Onto Page 2.
What this means, is that it wouldn't be wrong to believe that the wives of these three brothers & also the other sons of Adam & Eve, came from within their own family (i.e. the men would have married their sisters, cousins, or nieces), which would be abominable to us today, though normal in those days to warrant generational continuance and survival. Even today, amongst Muslims & Parsis for example, first cousin marriages are acceptable, especially those living in secluded small communities, away from their larger populations. But evidences of cleft lip & palate & other physical problems exist among them.
It was not until much later ( Leviticus 18:6-17), that God forbad such close familial unions, which no doubt was partly due to preventing genetic aberrations and deformities, because of the human body becoming increasingly affected by sin's effects and the closely connected genes that exist between family members. What was once a needed union by close family members for the survival of the human race, was now prohibited because of resulting severe problems appearing both in mind & body.
As I mentioned, all this is not in the Bible, so we can't be absolutely certain, but I share this purely from a biological perspective which seems to make some sense of how the children of Adam & Eve found their wives & began to populate the Earth; but it was only through Seth, Enos and ultimately to Noah that God chose to preserve humanity from His destroying flood upon wicked humanity.
"Others who believe that God created other humans as well (before or after Adam) to show that the Adamic race mixed with these others also, don't base their belief on biblical revelation, but in fact go against it." Does it?
God framed the worlds by the word of God and the Spirit is not giving us a treatise in ethnography but of faith, the one language and one speech. God planted the garden anset man and woman as representational examples so with one man's fall sin enteres into the world etc.,It is neither on earth or in heaven as literal minds would make of it. So man after the fall chooses according to their free will. In the story of Noah we have the dove coming with an olive leaf plukt of and nations populating the new earth and these are to be understood as the Spirit has stated it. Where faith is the one speech and one language either we believe the word as inerrant. This is merely my understanding of the Bible. We explain the spiritual with spiritual passages.
Hello Bennymkje. Thank you for your response but even in this, I find it difficult to comprehend what you believe or want us to understand. As an example, you wrote, "God planted the garden and set man and woman as representational examples so with one man's fall sin enters into the world etc", and then wrote, "It is neither on earth or in heaven as literal minds would make of it".
What is neither here on Earth nor there in Heaven? Are you referring to Eden? If so, should we also believe there was no 'literal' Adam and Eve, or even the fall? Your messages come across, to me at least, very confusing, as I can't figure out what you believe to be literal and what should be taken as non-literal. As also another example, in the past your use of "command numbers". I ask myself, 'where did these numbers come from'? You have made many such statements which leave my mind floundering as to their source. Even if one believes that they come from the Spirit revealing the deeper or hidden meanings, then it could be useful for the receiver of those revelations but of little value to the hearer/reader without explanation.
I'm sorry, I am one of those who looks for correct exegesis of the Word first, in the context of the history, people & culture and then seek the Spirit's Help to learn & apply Truths to my life. If I don't, then I can make the Word that I read mean anything I want it to, which I don't believe those authors under the Spirit's guidance, intended the readers to do. The Word of God is to be read simply & naturally, unless clearly with symbolism, and those Truths to be applied to the mind & spirit as needed, by the Holy Spirit.
Your question is often asked on here and most people who read the account of Cain finding a wife in Nod, or even Abel or Seth, wonder where these women came from because the text does not give information on the other children Adam and Eve conceived but mentions later in Genesis that they had many sons and daughter over their lifetime.
Since we do not have a record of these sons and daughters, their names, nor whom they each married we must extrapolate that the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve, and the children of these sons and daughters and on through the generations until the flood married family members and all had long lifespans, except for Abel who was murdered, those who Laban murdered and any others who were killed by the great violence prior to the flood.
We extrapolate this because Genesis does not say that there were any other humans created besides Adam ad Eve. Also Eve is called the mother of all the living. We are told that in Adam all sin. So there could not have been any other humans created by God next to Adam ad Eve.
The same thing occurred in Noah's family after the flood. All people born after the flood were generated from Noah between his three sons, Shem, Japheth, and Ham. Every human is descended from these three brothers because there was inter-marriage between the offspring of these three sons before people were scattered at the time of Babel. We are not told that each brother's offspring only married their immediate sisters, brothers, first cousins, etc. within their own family headed by one of the three brothers. So, we can deduce that the generations following the flood where all mixed together genetically. Eventually, most likely after Babel, families migrated throughout the world and formed tribes and ethnicities that intermarried within their people group if they were located in an isolated area. But there has always been some marrying outside of the tribal unit since Noah up to today.
The Bible is for our our spiritual instruction in righteousness. Seek therefore the truth.
A river goes out from Eden and it has a purpose. And this garden is a snapshot illustrating the fellowship of God with Man. The latter is Jesus Christ. the Word which was with God. God is uncreated being. Adam is created 'after our image'. So he bears relation to the Son. He is son of God. ( Luke 3.38) .So we have the garden to illustrate this truth.
"God planted the garden and set man and woman as representational examples so with one man's fall sin enters into the world etc", and "It is neither on earth or in heaven as literal minds would make of it".God framed the worlds with his word so this garden you need understand is a spiritual place. Your next question,'What is neither here on Earth nor there in Heaven? Are you referring to Eden? It is is in your inward parts-truth, Chris.
The word of God has sound,-voice of the Lord. It is a sign that it can be written. St Paul writes'Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart./And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward." The sign is 'within us' and if you could read the Bible as it should, this discussion would not have been necessary.
Lastly you write," in the past your use of "command numbers". I ask myself, 'where did these numbers come from'? You have made many such statements which leave my mind floundering.' Which is more nonsensical than believing 144,000 as specific number than allowing the 144 as a symbol to explain the believer who is blessed with all spiritual blessings in heaven and on earth? What is special about the number 12? It is associated with Jacob, Ishamael and with Jesus. Why is is given in so many places. Either you gather with Christ or you scatter them.
From what I gather concerning Adam & Eve & the garden, you do believe these people existed, but the garden "is a spiritual place" and "is a snapshot illustrating the fellowship of God with Man". I could understand the garden being that common ground where God & man fellowshipped, though I would probably use Genesis 1:28,29 and Genesis 2:15-19 where God speaks to Adam as a more realistic account & example of their fellowship together. And so this would make Eden not some sort of spiritual place but a literal place where these people walked & fellowshipped. But if the real meaning of it is a spiritual place (as you infer), then I ask myself, 'how has this knowledge helped me understand what I'm reading and is it beneficial in some way?'
To Revelation chap 7: 144,000. "Which is more nonsensical than believing 144,000 as a specific number than allowing the 144 as a symbol to explain the believer who is blessed with all spiritual blessings in heaven and on earth?" Does the fact that verses 5 to 8 clearly specify the composition of this great number have any bearing on what you believe as the believer being blessed with all spiritual blessings? This is probably a prime example of how we read the Scriptures. So when reading this from you, the questions that arise are: why is 144 a symbol to explain the believer's spiritual blessings? Where in the Scriptures can we find support in such a manner for this number? How then do you interpret verses 5 to 8 describing the 12,000 numbered & sealed from the 12 tribes of Israel? Knowing that you have disconnected the physical Israel from any future fulfilment of prophecy, the 12,000 from the 12 tribes would then represent whom? Sorry to make this long, but wanted to find out how you arrive at such interpretations when the Bible is so specific in its narrative and any departure from it could very well lead us into error.
Since I am mentioned in your comment let me refer strictly respond to the garden of Eden part. God is a Spirit and he does not require human parents for the creation of Adam and Eve. The Spirit instructs us with the episode of Jacob in the house of Laban.(Gen.31.7-9) We can also pinpoint the garden was in the mid-heaven. A river went out from Eden to water the garden. Similarly the cattle conceived before the trough and the vision was his teacher. " And it came to pass at the time that the cattle conceived, that I lifted up mine eyes, and saw in a dream, and, behold, the rams which leaped upon the cattle were ringstraked, speckled, and grisled." God says the word and it is on a spiritual world and it is real. As John the Baptist say, "And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."(Jn3.9). If foolish teachers are blind to compare the passages as for an example shown here, they are spiritually blind..
And peace be with you,
And yes, the basis for correct understanding & interpretation of the Bible (otherwise, called biblical hermeneutics), does vary among its readers/students. Some (most) take a literal approach to it, while others a spiritual approach (i.e. biblical Truths are infused with other deeper hidden messages that God gave for us to receive). So, with this 'spiritual approach', one can take any Bible passage and do with it whatever one believes is the correct message from God to us; and so we end up with a variety of interpretations, which I believe are not consistent with what the writers understood and wrote under inspiration. Even the apostles, in their writings to the Churches, never adopted such 'deeper' teachings, whether taken from their references to the OT or from inspiration by the Holy Spirit to teach the churches for correct doctrine and conduct.
Gnosticism infiltrated the newly-formed Churches then, even as it does now. And 1 John is a particularly good example of a letter written to address these aberrant beliefs & to warn the fledgeling Church. Some of the gnostic teachings (meaning, 'relating to knowledge (gnosis), particularly esoteric mystical knowledge') were: knowledge is superior to virtue; the non-literal sense of Scripture is correct and could only be understood by a select few; evil in the world precludes God being the only creator; the incarnation is incredible (or, unbelievable), because Deity (the Godhead) cannot unite with anything material, e.g. a body of flesh; and there is no resurrection of the flesh (remember the Saducees?). These are just a few of their beliefs (as given in my study Bible notes). As the apostles believed & taught we too are required to be vigilant against such false teachings.
Chris, we are also to be vigilant of teachings in our churches with certain pre-conceived notions so their culture tradions are preserved and their interpretations are in line with the policies of the government. Had churches approached the Bible as inerrant it would not have had nationalism, and other heresies.Slavery brought in the South ,doctrines to justify it, for example,
God is a Spirit and God sets the worlds framed by the word so God sets the world of the Spirit where faith is one language and one speech. We have our being and our daily lives among the ungodly. But Giod made us living souls. Truth is part of His gift. So we are to understand what the Spirit describes existing suprareal so whether you believe it or not it has its own existence. If Jonah could communicate with God from the belly of a great fish what is strange about Genesis 2:15-19? If truth cannot connect you with this world what religion are we talking about?
With regards to the 12 tribes of Israel and the number of 144,000 in Rev. ch.7 Israel is a hold all to explain the left behind church The Vision of the woman clothed with the sun gives us two parallel accounts of the woman running to the wilderness of her her place and the other to which God helps find refuge. The tag of time, times and half a time is the key to connect with the book of Daniel and it refers to the Jews. On the other hand the number of days given connects with the church. The church redeems themselves by stepping in place of the nation during the great tribulation, in the manner of Seth and intercession of Jesus Christ for the sinful world. How do we arrive at 144?
The everlasting Covenant in 7 days Gen.ch.1- 2.1-3 : the first four days refer to the heaven and the remaining on the earth. The believer in the Son has access to the blessings from both worlds. In the Father and in his Son. 4x3=12 gospel of God and in his Son makes up the number 12x12=144. God's promise to bless Abraham and ' thy seed' consequently uses this tag referring to Ishamal as well Jacob who is the heir of promise. 144,000 in Ch.7 does not refer to the nation of Israel but those from the left behind church having the DNA of faith. What does Israel truly mean? Those who prevailed over boith God and man. Is it not?
You gave in your last paragraph, of the "first four days referring to heaven and the remaining (3) on the earth". So you then multiply 4 & 3 to give 12. Why not add 4 & 3 as an option? Is it because you need to arrive at 12, which then leads to 12x12=144? (Presumably, 12 is the Gospel of God and another 12 to His Son). And then that 144 becomes 144,000, not referring to Israel (which the angel takes great pains to clearly identify by each tribe), but to the left behind of the Church having the DNA of faith. Can you see why such arithmetic & number allocation becomes meaningless to anyone trying to follow this method of biblical interpretation? It clearly makes sense to you so we need to leave it that. Thanks again for your time.
What does 40 days in the Bible indicate? Or Three? The Spirit is specific to mention 'Moses was with God for 40 days and 40 nights? Exod.34.28. Jesus fasted for forty days before the Spirit led him to be tempted of the devil. He was seen for 40 days after he was risen? The sign of Jonah, Three days and three nights in the belly of a fish, must mean something is it not? I shall not explain further since I have already covered them. If every believer knew truth there would not be so many heresies and so many sects. Darkness was upon the face of the deep. "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."(Rev.22.11)
With greetings in Christ,
Whereas Matthew 12:40 (Jonah in the fish's belly) does connect with Jonah 1:17. Why? Because the Lord Himself wanted to give the religious leaders the sign they sought. Jonah wasn't stuck in the belly because Jesus much later would be "in the heart of the earth". Jonah happened to be in the fish for that time and Jesus used that event to describe & prophesy to these leaders that He too would spend the same time in the tomb. The connection & understanding is clear, for Jesus had made it. But to maintain consistency with this, if I introduce 1 Samuel 30:12 (the young Egyptian who was starving for 3 days & 3 nights), then I destroy what sense and connection the Matthew & Jonah verses made to each other. I hope you can see why it is difficult for me, and likely others, to really understand your connections and interpretations.
Though I do agree with you on this: "If every believer knew truth there would not be so many heresies and so many sects"; and I would add, to "rightly divide the Word", so that Word would become much more precious & rich in every heart who hears it.
I shall merely add, four is a command number for the word become flesh. So soul of man is five. Trespass offering is one fifth of value added thereto. Man's ox and man is considered as one. It is his life.
Four cardinal numbers to indicate gospel is the same whether north south east or west is considered. Four gospels. four is also to indicate according to the word of God. Gen.6.3 has 120 years as a yardstick. 12x10 is not made up arbitrarily. Ten is a man's life. God sets the template of 12 into the life of man. We live thus according to the word of God, in his Son. Breaking down 120 does not contradict itself. 4x3x10.
Why did God give Decalogue and not 12x10? Ten is also number to indicate law of sin and death. The Law of the Spirit is a whole number Seven. In the will of God Israel was no more special than a Gentile. Only in his Son they become special, holy nation, peculiar people.
God has given us His Spirit and Jesus who of God has become wisdom for us. In the usage also the spirit ought to differentiate between a numeral from a tag used to indicate spiritual signiificance.
Generation of man is set against Generation of Jesus Christ. Mt.1.1 100 years have meaning as well as 1000.
I agree with the line, 'And I would add, to "rightly divide the Word", I am sometimes guilty of writing down my thoughts as prompted by the Spirit, so I repeat words, not to mentions typos and what not. In small hours my mind keeps going so I write these first in the morning, in a somewhat 'dumping the load' and I need read it twice or thrice to understand myself and many a time it has opened my eyes to see what lay hidden. With one eye left and still holding on, God understands my spirit, and richly dividing the word must be done by the reader at times. Besides I write not to make others understand according to their level of understanding but it is for the glory of my Lord. Besides there is a great congregation out there among the cloud of witnesses, who shall understand perfectly well.
So it is, brother Chris,
And it seems that many accept Adam and Eve as the first people. And I do not disagree with that. But I add that they were the first in Adam's line. They were the first in Jesus' genealogy. Then we also see that the question is no longer so relevant. Don't get me wrong now.
Because studies and discoveries of remains have been found from as far back as 6000 years. And there must have been other people or similar people on earth. Because if we think about the navel, the whole question is put in doubt. Did God who created man just do some experiment? Or did He have to know in advance that the navel would not turn out well in the long run. No, God has planned everything, but He regretted that he created man because everyone is intractable and they have shown themselves to go back and make the same mistake 70 times 7 equals 490 times. Here I think Jesus had a good margin, otherwise He would not have said it.
Adam had a function: To take care of the Garden of Eden, imagine he walked with God there in the Garden. If the whole earth was Garden as some say. Then we cannot ignore that Adam then again, is the first person that God made in His image. Therefore we must also add the spirit and soul not just the body. Remember God breathed life into Adam so he became a living spirit/soul. He did not do that with everyone who was born. It wasn't necessary. Adam became a living soul. And the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1 Cor:15-47
So believe in God and believe in the scripture. Hold on to the word that is clear enough. If one is willing to see things as it is written. Like all who think about God's word every day, we meet people who constantly want to discuss this subject. And do not imagine that they come from the good. Here the evil one is to sow doubt, to cause us to stumble. To misjudge the word of God. If there are matters we talk about that we have not really received light on, it is best to let it be. Christ love
Hello Texsis - nice to hear from you again. Hope you are doing well. Your question is a good one, though the Bible doesn't explicitly give us the answer. From what we do know (as stated in the Bible), Adam and Eve were without sin at their creation. And that implies not only were they completely innocent of anything that went against the Will of God, but their bodies were free of any defects, which would enable them to live forever. But they disobeyed God in rebellion to His Word & sin entered in and the effects of that sin & sin nature then passed onto Cain, Abel & Seth. And of course Adam & Eve had many other children, sons & daughters ( Genesis 5:4), who also would have inherited that sin nature.
Most folk generally accept that Adam & Eve & their descendants were the first and only humans created by God. Others who believe that God created other humans as well (before or after Adam) to show that the Adamic race mixed with these others also, don't base their belief on biblical revelation, but in fact go against it. Therefore, believing that Adam & Eve were the first & only in creation and that after they sinned, their years on Earth were numbered, it also meant that their bodies & internal organs began to show the signs of wear & limitations. But this deterioration would take place slowly over time (their lowering lifespans indicating this). Therefore, it may be valid to assume that their children (i.e. the many others during the lifetimes of Cain, Abel & Seth) would also have shortened lives and their genetic purity too would have altered marginally. Onto Page 2.
What this means, is that it wouldn't be wrong to believe that the wives of these three brothers & also the other sons of Adam & Eve, came from within their own family (i.e. the men would have married their sisters, cousins, or nieces), which would be abominable to us today, though normal in those days to warrant generational continuance and survival. Even today, amongst Muslims & Parsis for example, first cousin marriages are acceptable, especially those living in secluded small communities, away from their larger populations. But evidences of cleft lip & palate & other physical problems exist among them.
It was not until much later ( Leviticus 18:6-17), that God forbad such close familial unions, which no doubt was partly due to preventing genetic aberrations and deformities, because of the human body becoming increasingly affected by sin's effects and the closely connected genes that exist between family members. What was once a needed union by close family members for the survival of the human race, was now prohibited because of resulting severe problems appearing both in mind & body.
As I mentioned, all this is not in the Bible, so we can't be absolutely certain, but I share this purely from a biological perspective which seems to make some sense of how the children of Adam & Eve found their wives & began to populate the Earth; but it was only through Seth, Enos and ultimately to Noah that God chose to preserve humanity from His destroying flood upon wicked humanity.
You write,
"Others who believe that God created other humans as well (before or after Adam) to show that the Adamic race mixed with these others also, don't base their belief on biblical revelation, but in fact go against it." Does it?
God framed the worlds by the word of God and the Spirit is not giving us a treatise in ethnography but of faith, the one language and one speech. God planted the garden anset man and woman as representational examples so with one man's fall sin enteres into the world etc.,It is neither on earth or in heaven as literal minds would make of it. So man after the fall chooses according to their free will. In the story of Noah we have the dove coming with an olive leaf plukt of and nations populating the new earth and these are to be understood as the Spirit has stated it. Where faith is the one speech and one language either we believe the word as inerrant. This is merely my understanding of the Bible. We explain the spiritual with spiritual passages.
What is neither here on Earth nor there in Heaven? Are you referring to Eden? If so, should we also believe there was no 'literal' Adam and Eve, or even the fall? Your messages come across, to me at least, very confusing, as I can't figure out what you believe to be literal and what should be taken as non-literal. As also another example, in the past your use of "command numbers". I ask myself, 'where did these numbers come from'? You have made many such statements which leave my mind floundering as to their source. Even if one believes that they come from the Spirit revealing the deeper or hidden meanings, then it could be useful for the receiver of those revelations but of little value to the hearer/reader without explanation.
I'm sorry, I am one of those who looks for correct exegesis of the Word first, in the context of the history, people & culture and then seek the Spirit's Help to learn & apply Truths to my life. If I don't, then I can make the Word that I read mean anything I want it to, which I don't believe those authors under the Spirit's guidance, intended the readers to do. The Word of God is to be read simply & naturally, unless clearly with symbolism, and those Truths to be applied to the mind & spirit as needed, by the Holy Spirit.
Your question is often asked on here and most people who read the account of Cain finding a wife in Nod, or even Abel or Seth, wonder where these women came from because the text does not give information on the other children Adam and Eve conceived but mentions later in Genesis that they had many sons and daughter over their lifetime.
Since we do not have a record of these sons and daughters, their names, nor whom they each married we must extrapolate that the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve, and the children of these sons and daughters and on through the generations until the flood married family members and all had long lifespans, except for Abel who was murdered, those who Laban murdered and any others who were killed by the great violence prior to the flood.
We extrapolate this because Genesis does not say that there were any other humans created besides Adam ad Eve. Also Eve is called the mother of all the living. We are told that in Adam all sin. So there could not have been any other humans created by God next to Adam ad Eve.
The same thing occurred in Noah's family after the flood. All people born after the flood were generated from Noah between his three sons, Shem, Japheth, and Ham. Every human is descended from these three brothers because there was inter-marriage between the offspring of these three sons before people were scattered at the time of Babel. We are not told that each brother's offspring only married their immediate sisters, brothers, first cousins, etc. within their own family headed by one of the three brothers. So, we can deduce that the generations following the flood where all mixed together genetically. Eventually, most likely after Babel, families migrated throughout the world and formed tribes and ethnicities that intermarried within their people group if they were located in an isolated area. But there has always been some marrying outside of the tribal unit since Noah up to today.
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