God's covenants: Abraham; Moses and the beginning of the nation of Israel
It is an interesting sidenote to study Genesis 20 and the later account of Abraham declaring his wife was his sister and how God dealt with the situation when the surrounding ruler could have taken her as their wife. It shows that the institution of marriage affects others; and that pagans also had wives that God would interact with from time to time. We see that importance with John the Baptist who was beheaded reporting an adulterous relationship among a pagan ruler; again reinforcing the covenant of marriage for all mankind.
At any rate; as with all other covenants God instigated the movement of Abraham from his homeland to the wilderness; although he apparently had the influence of one of his relatives that could have held him back from full effectiveness. God's plans seem strange and contorted in our human logic. Abraham and later Moses spent much time going in circles basically in the wilderness largely due to the sins of those around them but partially due to their own foibles. These were a couple of old dudes that seemed to take an eternity to get their acts together; if we want to be real. Of course God expected Abraham and his wife to believe him in having a natural childbirth; maybe with men living longer Abraham could fathom it but of course with Sarah at 90 she laughed it off. They tried to circumvent things by having Abraham have relations with Hagar which stirred up a whole hornet's nest of troubles; but in the long term fulfilled certain prophetic plans of God. We might wonder if God would have worked differently if men weren't so ornery about doing things THEIR way. It is interesting how God could be so involved with Abraham's personal lineage covenant promises while at the same time finalizing plans and instigating destruction of Sodom and the surrounding cities; as well as discussing it all with Abraham who bargained to save it if 10 righteous existed.
Hello "Greald" thank you, you have right. I have a King James and it also say mansion. In werry smal types. I didnt wright that this time.
And i agre house or room is small. Nothing with God, Jesus or HG is small. I see that my languages is a problem. I can open up this sites Bible and look, before so i dont do it wrong. And do the Bible right.
And i notice that its a rich speaking in englich. And i dont have in my.
It is interesting that after Abraham and Sarah had Isaac and Sarah had died, Abraham married one of his maid-servants, Keturah , and together they had 6 sons well after Abraham was 100 years old. These sons peoples the Arabian peninsula, but none of them were the promised child (only Isaac) nor the lineage of the Messiah who was promised.
Yes, it's fascinating that after Sarah's death, Abraham married Keturah, and they had six sons ( Genesis 25:1-2). However, as you pointed out, Isaac was the promised child, through whom the covenant and the Messiah would come. These other sons, while significant in their own right, were not part of the line leading to Christ. The Bible makes it clear that God's promise was specifically tied to Isaac, as Genesis 21:12 states: "In Isaac shall thy seed be called."
God specifically stated that the promised lineage to Christ would come through Sarah alone, not through Hagar or any of Abraham's other children. This was made clear when He told Abraham that Isaac, the son born to Sarah, would be the one through whom His covenant would be established. Genesis 21:12 (KJV).
Humans must respect God's promises and commands because when they act outside of His plan, their own decisions can lead to consequences that deviate from His will. Abraham's decision to have a child with Hagar, was outside of God's original promise to Sarah.While God still blessed Ishmael, the consequences of that decision created division and conflict, demonstrating that our choices matter.
I just wiped out a comment here like another time when trying to post I hate that stupid key that I keep hitting.
In general I am trying to focus on how our relationship with Christ when professing faith is a covenant between Him and us and the ramifications.
I hope you got your business with the neighbor taken care of. I'm trying to find some boundaries for someone I'm helping who is in debt way more than I want to be involved with. Trying to prepare resources if the Lord delays responsibly; and perhaps find a place in a rural location but waiting for the Lord to open one or two doors completely and for some moneys to come in.
It has been a while since I posted so am happy I got these ideas although I kind of touched on some of it before.
I firmly believe many will be left behind who call themselves Christians and many in the first half of the Tribulation will die as martyrs but will be sanctified in the process to be able to be given spotless white garments and stand in God's presence. If anything because God seeks full maturity and the mission given to them to be completed. Not sure how you feel about that.
That is what i believe brings the full fruition of the Joel 2 revival; I don't see a big revival before that and it seems against scripture if truly many fall away in the last days. The false church of Babylon will appear to have a revival or mass movement with one world religion which can't be totally revealed until after we are out of here. I probably said it before but i believe THAT is the source of martyrdom for the first half of the Tribulation; and later a separate killing when all true AND false religion is destroyed by Antichrist and he alone demands worship or death.
Maybe it is wishful thinking. Whenever I see people walking away from the faith it is like a dagger in my soul. God has called some back this side of the Rapture. Our departure I believe will send the necessary shock wave to bring life to their sleeping souls.
It seems that we have come to a sort of agreement with our neighbor of him paying us for the land and also paying for all the fees, surveys, etc. needed to transfer the property to him. It is a process and I do not know how long it will take. I hope he indeed will pay us what we verbally agreed. For now, we wait get paid and finalize the matter when all things are in order on his part.
As to how I view what will happen in the end times, I agree with what 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 tells us about the rise of the antichrist and the second coming of Christ. There is no mention of a rapture prior to His coming in this chapter or in any of the passages where Jesus speaks of His coming.
But, beyond what these Scriptures say, I cannot say what will happen as we near the end of this age. I pray that the Lord will keep me in true faith and ready for Him to come again as we are instructed in various gospel and epistle passages.
Honestly, what I have said above is what I can hold to firmly concerning eschatology. I do believe that Jesus has been and is reigning in heaven at the Father's right hand where He ascended to as recorded in Acts. Stephen attested to this reality when he was being stoned to death and Jesus said such things in His Last Supper Discourse.
I do not yet have a strong and firm view of end times, but I know that the Scriptures do not plainly teach of a rapture or of a pause in Daniel's 70 weeks for the church age as dispensationalist believe. I believe that the 70th week was fulfilled completely in the first century.
I have been in discussions on this topic before on here and those who are firm dispensationalists have been quite confrontational towards my views. I am o.k. with that, yet I do not wish to enter into a debate on this topic. That is why I do not enter conversations on the end times very often. I have read up on the various viewpoints and I do think that amillenialism best fits what I know from Scripture.
First of all, mention me by name. Don't bunch us together, I can respect that.
I stand on my own two feet.
A few weeks ago, you mentioned some on this site don't feel that the early Church writings was useful for us today.
Not exactly but it was somewhere along those lines.
A few years ago, you used to try to settle every debate by what you said the early Church believed in over the centuries.
Several of us showed why we couldn't settle anything in that manner. Those fragment secondhand writings were so diverse, some documents said one might have believed in this, and another document might say no, he believed something else!
The truth was never certain in what they believed in, nor does it confirm that they were correct!
Heresies began in John's Pauls' and Peter's Day.
If the reader can't be taught by the scripture we have today, he or she can't be taught.
It's the same Holy Spirit that teaches them that teaches us.
I don't think I need to name any one person here as there have been a number of people who have engaged me on this topic over the past few years.
I appreciate your response to me here and I will certainly consider all that you have mentioned here about me. I do remember saying to you early on on this topic that I had not come to a firm position on eschatology. And, yes, I did say that I do not believe as dispensationalist do because no one can cite any Scripture that definitely says there will be a Rapture. If you know of such Scriptures, I would welcome knowing them so I can study them to see if the Rapture as dispensationalist teach is truly taught in Scripture.
As to the remainder of what you have stated about me here, I will pass on responding. May we both come to knowledge of the truth on this matter.
There is no contention here, I just don't want to be labeled with a group when there are diverse interpretations in every group. Dispensation, hyper Dispensationist etc...
Nor have I been confrontational towards other views.
I give my view and then I'm confronted, and it goes from there.
I don't like to defend a doctrine without examining the scripture surrounding that doctrine and the method of interpretation that shapes one's view. literal, allegorically, etc.
So, I message you to be clear, and it can be researched in one's profile, most of my debates is me answering to my beliefs not me confronting someone's belief, whether it's the eternal security of the believer, the deity of Christ, The Rapture, End times concerning Israel and the Church, The different origins of Israel and the Church. The interval between the six and the seventh week mentioned in Daniel, the list goes on.
These topics I've brought up and discussed and was confronted and questioned about and I answered!
When you are being asked a question and you answer it you are not being confrontational.
You get a direct honest answer whether its right or wrong!
What is a study and what is discussion? I willl stick to lliteral as you seem to prefer it Regards to your first line:
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."(2 Tim.2.15) and on discussions "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain."( Titus 3.9)
Discussion cannot yield anything worthwhile where minds are not open. Mull over it and make your Bill tell you what is profitable for life eternal. GBU
One can profit from a discussion when it's approached with an open mind, and when there is disagreement pride must be set aside and studying scriptures should come into play using proper hermeneutics.
To be honest, I don't think anyone enters a discussion or study without prior conceptions or knowledge. Being humble to admit this to God when doing this and asking Him to help your understanding of His revelation to us and to change our thinking and approach is important for all of us to do. The Holy Spirit helps us and leads us to learn and come to a better and more accurate viewpoint.
Hi Gigi, you stated that you have been in discussions on this topic, (Rapture, End times, ect. ect..) before on here and those who are firm dispensationalists have been quite confrontational towards your views.
Who are those firm dispensationalists that have been quite confrontational towards your views Gigi?
Gigi, I don't recall anyone on this site ever CONFRONT YOU on your eschatology viewpoints!
I don't recall You ever giving a viewpoint!
We're talking about over 2 years ago here!
You never gave an eschatology viewpoint you believed in, but you just knew what you didn't believe in. "dispensationalism".
Later you said Amillennial viewpoint best fits your understanding.
You entered a discussion where you said you believed the Millenium was in Heaven and I showed you certain scriptures that puts it on Earth and you agreed.
Gigi, you have always backed someone's else eschatology doctrine as long as it wasn't dispensationalism.
In fact, you said you would except anything as an alternate.
You have never given a viewpoint that you stuck with entirely and you may have been critique "by me" for not having scripture support for the references of the early Church beliefs that you often referred to.
You have always been the aggressor when it came to dispensationalism.
You openly criticized it!
No one has chased you down in any debate.
I've stayed away from that topic as a debate when someone goes into it with their sleeves rolled up.
The last extensive debate I had on this topic was no intended debate at all! I tried to avoid it.
That was with Jimbob and I wouldn't engage him.
It wasn't until I returned from vacation a week later where I saw where you rallied behind him, so I sought after your scripture support behind your theology, and you had none.
I have never chased you down about Eschatology viewpoints.
I can respect anyone who can show what they believe in or what they don't believe in, as long as they have correct scripture support.
Dear Gigi: I have fellowshipped with Amillennialists in my last church. The last thing I want to do is raise a firestorm on that issue and deep six our friendship; albeit incognito as to what your full identity is on this site.
I probably forgot as likely you mentioned this before. I am not planning on a big discussion on that subject at this point anyway as it is our attitude towards Jesus coming back and serving Him now that is most important.
On my study on covenants; I am trying to best address the implications for all mankind as we all are judged because all souls belong to God; ultimately. God covented with Adam and Eve and in some sense we have varying degrees of responsibility based on our knowledge or lack thereof of Him and His statutes. It is noteworthy that God seemed to work through nonbelievers quite often without their knowledge and no doubt some came to saving faith.
Today; it is hard to know how to pray as it seems increasingly hard to determine the "right" side from the wrong; especially in international affairs. In some ways it is good as increased knowledge has stripped away some of the mythology as it were of our actions in the past that in a large part were controlled by ruling elite as they are so clearly today; as they no longer seem to care if that is revealed. God has His own end game and timing; and many would be predecessors have tried to up the ante and bring prophecy to fulfillment before the time. It is hard to balance not being a conspiracy theorist about everything and trusting what anyone says to find the proper middle ground. And the wars that are fought are with remote control drones and such and missiles; rather than tanks and large scale land invasions. It would seem both a land war and nuclear will encompass the Ezekiel 38 war; and it isn't out of the question literal horses could be used in the mountain passes along with advanced weaponry.
Anyway; I appreciate your input and encouragement.
I do not think that a respectful discussion on the topic of whether there will be a rapture or not would or should end a friendship here or elsewhere.
You did seem to ask me what I thought about this topic and I answered truthfully. I do not have a problem fellowshipping with those who differ from my views on this topic as it does not touch on our salvation or on the nature of God that would indicate da false view of who He is on a major doctrine of the shared faith passed down through the apostles.
There are many topics that can be discussed on this forum. Eschatology is not one I bring up for discussion as, from what I have studied, there are at least 5 eschatological positions held by believers. And for many of us, our view has changed over time. Mine has and this is because I what I found in Scriptures eliminated the majority of views. But even the amillennial view does not completely address all aspects of eschatology as I can tell. So, with this in mind, I am hesitant to speak of myself as being one who holds to any of these views without question. I look to Scriptures and try to find what is consistently taught concerning the return of Jesus and the times leading up to this glorious which also brings our resurrection and glorification for eternity.
I suppose that none of us who are in Christ have found even one person who believes the same on all topics. So, we are to hear one another out and take what they say to the Scriptures and see if it is truly taught in the Word of Truth. We are to examine our own doctrines and views against the Scriptures also. If we do both of these things with humility, bending to the work of the Holy Spirit, and without hostility towards others who think differently than one does, we can have peaceful fellowship along with a good conscience.
I know that your aim is to discuss God's covenantal workings in the lives of those who are His. And I think that is a topic we can profit from examining.
While what is called the rapture it's timing and importance might not effect a man's salvation a mistaken belief about it might and could well effect that persons ability to be " ready" when Jesus comes (His coming is beyond all dispute .)
The scriptures teach for instance of " suffering loss as through fire" as exemplified by Lot . Who lost everything but the salvation of his soul .
There is also the loss as suffered by the 5 foolish virgins who were barred from the " marriage" but are not barred from the kingdom . For they heard the words " I know you not" meaning unrecognisable as the bride . Where as those barred from the kingdom hear the words " I never knew you" and are unrecognisable as sons of God bearing not His image in them..
It seems that there is an idea in the church that as soon as you are BORN again you are automatically qualified to be in the Bride of Christ. This is the consequence of reducing the gospel or our Salvation to being a born again with very little teaching of the meat of thecWord of God . Make no mistake every true born child of God is called " to that high calling" it qualifies us to "run the race" but it does not win us the prize . For there are prizes or crowns to be won . Rewards .
That don't save our souls that's Gods work . That's the foundation and we must be careful what we build upin it says Paul.
If we build but hay wood and stubble is that not works of the flesh?
Lot the counted righteous nevertheless walked by sight and not by faith.
And was thus unprepared and unaware of the hour in which he lived.
While Abraham who walked by faith was in a place where God couid reveal what he was about to do and was therefore in a place where he could intercede for Lot .
The Laodocian church was also blind and if they did not repent wouid be spewed out into " tribulation" that is the " great tribulation" it is interesting to note that the last king of Isreal was blind as also the last judge
A wonderful promise but you have highlighted a problem concerning translations of the scriptures . For you have said " In my Fathers house are many rooms" . Here is always my problem with so many translations . There is a world of difference between " rooms" and " mansions" .
The two words convey two very different things and while you might argue how can you have a mansion in a house? A mansion is greater than a room!
In my Fathers house is at the very least the household of faith .
Which is a very big house to say the least. With more than a few " Rooms".
For what is a brother or sister ? And what is a neighbour?
A brother is someone of the same household and of the same father .
A neighbour is of another household and of another father .
I'm not nit nicking but rather seek to show how more often than not so any transmits are always 'less" then in the KJV.
And if we have so many translations with so many difffernt words with p,Ely diffetent meanings by wht crterea do we choos one over the other? Th English language is very rich and is able to convey y its words breadth depth ad high of meaning thT most other languages cannot .We should have more confidence in the KJV and any ' problems' we might he with it as in this case of a " house" having many " mansions" should not be discarded because it is not so easy to understand fr an easier translation but which does not convey the same meaning .But rather we should seek the understanding of it as it is given .
It is an interesting sidenote to study Genesis 20 and the later account of Abraham declaring his wife was his sister and how God dealt with the situation when the surrounding ruler could have taken her as their wife. It shows that the institution of marriage affects others; and that pagans also had wives that God would interact with from time to time. We see that importance with John the Baptist who was beheaded reporting an adulterous relationship among a pagan ruler; again reinforcing the covenant of marriage for all mankind.
At any rate; as with all other covenants God instigated the movement of Abraham from his homeland to the wilderness; although he apparently had the influence of one of his relatives that could have held him back from full effectiveness. God's plans seem strange and contorted in our human logic. Abraham and later Moses spent much time going in circles basically in the wilderness largely due to the sins of those around them but partially due to their own foibles. These were a couple of old dudes that seemed to take an eternity to get their acts together; if we want to be real. Of course God expected Abraham and his wife to believe him in having a natural childbirth; maybe with men living longer Abraham could fathom it but of course with Sarah at 90 she laughed it off. They tried to circumvent things by having Abraham have relations with Hagar which stirred up a whole hornet's nest of troubles; but in the long term fulfilled certain prophetic plans of God. We might wonder if God would have worked differently if men weren't so ornery about doing things THEIR way. It is interesting how God could be so involved with Abraham's personal lineage covenant promises while at the same time finalizing plans and instigating destruction of Sodom and the surrounding cities; as well as discussing it all with Abraham who bargained to save it if 10 righteous existed.
And i agre house or room is small. Nothing with God, Jesus or HG is small. I see that my languages is a problem. I can open up this sites Bible and look, before so i dont do it wrong. And do the Bible right.
And i notice that its a rich speaking in englich. And i dont have in my.
Its good to mention whats not okey. Ill do it to
Love u in Christ
It is interesting that after Abraham and Sarah had Isaac and Sarah had died, Abraham married one of his maid-servants, Keturah , and together they had 6 sons well after Abraham was 100 years old. These sons peoples the Arabian peninsula, but none of them were the promised child (only Isaac) nor the lineage of the Messiah who was promised.
Yes, it's fascinating that after Sarah's death, Abraham married Keturah, and they had six sons ( Genesis 25:1-2). However, as you pointed out, Isaac was the promised child, through whom the covenant and the Messiah would come. These other sons, while significant in their own right, were not part of the line leading to Christ. The Bible makes it clear that God's promise was specifically tied to Isaac, as Genesis 21:12 states: "In Isaac shall thy seed be called."
God specifically stated that the promised lineage to Christ would come through Sarah alone, not through Hagar or any of Abraham's other children. This was made clear when He told Abraham that Isaac, the son born to Sarah, would be the one through whom His covenant would be established. Genesis 21:12 (KJV).
Humans must respect God's promises and commands because when they act outside of His plan, their own decisions can lead to consequences that deviate from His will. Abraham's decision to have a child with Hagar, was outside of God's original promise to Sarah.While God still blessed Ishmael, the consequences of that decision created division and conflict, demonstrating that our choices matter.
In general I am trying to focus on how our relationship with Christ when professing faith is a covenant between Him and us and the ramifications.
I hope you got your business with the neighbor taken care of. I'm trying to find some boundaries for someone I'm helping who is in debt way more than I want to be involved with. Trying to prepare resources if the Lord delays responsibly; and perhaps find a place in a rural location but waiting for the Lord to open one or two doors completely and for some moneys to come in.
It has been a while since I posted so am happy I got these ideas although I kind of touched on some of it before.
I firmly believe many will be left behind who call themselves Christians and many in the first half of the Tribulation will die as martyrs but will be sanctified in the process to be able to be given spotless white garments and stand in God's presence. If anything because God seeks full maturity and the mission given to them to be completed. Not sure how you feel about that.
That is what i believe brings the full fruition of the Joel 2 revival; I don't see a big revival before that and it seems against scripture if truly many fall away in the last days. The false church of Babylon will appear to have a revival or mass movement with one world religion which can't be totally revealed until after we are out of here. I probably said it before but i believe THAT is the source of martyrdom for the first half of the Tribulation; and later a separate killing when all true AND false religion is destroyed by Antichrist and he alone demands worship or death.
Maybe it is wishful thinking. Whenever I see people walking away from the faith it is like a dagger in my soul. God has called some back this side of the Rapture. Our departure I believe will send the necessary shock wave to bring life to their sleeping souls.
It seems that we have come to a sort of agreement with our neighbor of him paying us for the land and also paying for all the fees, surveys, etc. needed to transfer the property to him. It is a process and I do not know how long it will take. I hope he indeed will pay us what we verbally agreed. For now, we wait get paid and finalize the matter when all things are in order on his part.
As to how I view what will happen in the end times, I agree with what 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 tells us about the rise of the antichrist and the second coming of Christ. There is no mention of a rapture prior to His coming in this chapter or in any of the passages where Jesus speaks of His coming.
But, beyond what these Scriptures say, I cannot say what will happen as we near the end of this age. I pray that the Lord will keep me in true faith and ready for Him to come again as we are instructed in various gospel and epistle passages.
Honestly, what I have said above is what I can hold to firmly concerning eschatology. I do believe that Jesus has been and is reigning in heaven at the Father's right hand where He ascended to as recorded in Acts. Stephen attested to this reality when he was being stoned to death and Jesus said such things in His Last Supper Discourse.
I do not yet have a strong and firm view of end times, but I know that the Scriptures do not plainly teach of a rapture or of a pause in Daniel's 70 weeks for the church age as dispensationalist believe. I believe that the 70th week was fulfilled completely in the first century.
I have been in discussions on this topic before on here and those who are firm dispensationalists have been quite confrontational towards my views. I am o.k. with that, yet I do not wish to enter into a debate on this topic. That is why I do not enter conversations on the end times very often. I have read up on the various viewpoints and I do think that amillenialism best fits what I know from Scripture.
Part 2.
Here's one other thing I want to mention.
First of all, mention me by name. Don't bunch us together, I can respect that.
I stand on my own two feet.
A few weeks ago, you mentioned some on this site don't feel that the early Church writings was useful for us today.
Not exactly but it was somewhere along those lines.
A few years ago, you used to try to settle every debate by what you said the early Church believed in over the centuries.
Several of us showed why we couldn't settle anything in that manner. Those fragment secondhand writings were so diverse, some documents said one might have believed in this, and another document might say no, he believed something else!
The truth was never certain in what they believed in, nor does it confirm that they were correct!
Heresies began in John's Pauls' and Peter's Day.
If the reader can't be taught by the scripture we have today, he or she can't be taught.
It's the same Holy Spirit that teaches them that teaches us.
I don't think I need to name any one person here as there have been a number of people who have engaged me on this topic over the past few years.
I appreciate your response to me here and I will certainly consider all that you have mentioned here about me. I do remember saying to you early on on this topic that I had not come to a firm position on eschatology. And, yes, I did say that I do not believe as dispensationalist do because no one can cite any Scripture that definitely says there will be a Rapture. If you know of such Scriptures, I would welcome knowing them so I can study them to see if the Rapture as dispensationalist teach is truly taught in Scripture.
As to the remainder of what you have stated about me here, I will pass on responding. May we both come to knowledge of the truth on this matter.
Thanks for replying.
There is no contention here, I just don't want to be labeled with a group when there are diverse interpretations in every group. Dispensation, hyper Dispensationist etc...
Nor have I been confrontational towards other views.
I give my view and then I'm confronted, and it goes from there.
I don't like to defend a doctrine without examining the scripture surrounding that doctrine and the method of interpretation that shapes one's view. literal, allegorically, etc.
So, I message you to be clear, and it can be researched in one's profile, most of my debates is me answering to my beliefs not me confronting someone's belief, whether it's the eternal security of the believer, the deity of Christ, The Rapture, End times concerning Israel and the Church, The different origins of Israel and the Church. The interval between the six and the seventh week mentioned in Daniel, the list goes on.
These topics I've brought up and discussed and was confronted and questioned about and I answered!
When you are being asked a question and you answer it you are not being confrontational.
You get a direct honest answer whether its right or wrong!
Blessings
Thanks again for your reply.
Please know that I have not labeled you with a particular group.
I value your fellowship on here.
Hope to talk with you again soon.
God bless you! It's easier to go into a study and gather from it when we can set aside all preconceived and traditional teachings.
We have that mentioned a lot on this site and elsewhere but to be called a "study" it has to be done on both sides.
To set aside one's preconceived teachings or doctrines often means to some, "you set aside yours and I will keep mine because I believe I'm right.
They call that a study but it really isn't.
A discussion and a study isn't the same thing though you can learn from both.
In most discussions people tend to hold on to their beliefs.
When studying you have to go to the scriptures and begin taking the scriptures literally unless there's symbols to suggest otherwise.
When the Bible deals with timetables it gives you description of the era and direct signs when the prophecy nears it's climax.
There's more to take into consideration.
As for the vacation the Pastor was a blessing, I was beginning to grow weary of all these vacations. I love being home.
I'm trying to get my body clock to adjust back to the eastern time zone.
I've been on your home state time zone, "Washington" for nearly two weeks.
God bless you Gigi.
What is a study and what is discussion? I willl stick to lliteral as you seem to prefer it Regards to your first line:
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."(2 Tim.2.15) and on discussions "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain."( Titus 3.9)
Discussion cannot yield anything worthwhile where minds are not open. Mull over it and make your Bill tell you what is profitable for life eternal. GBU
One can profit from a discussion when it's approached with an open mind, and when there is disagreement pride must be set aside and studying scriptures should come into play using proper hermeneutics.
That's essential!
Blessings.
It must feel good to be back home.
Hope your body adjusts readily.
To be honest, I don't think anyone enters a discussion or study without prior conceptions or knowledge. Being humble to admit this to God when doing this and asking Him to help your understanding of His revelation to us and to change our thinking and approach is important for all of us to do. The Holy Spirit helps us and leads us to learn and come to a better and more accurate viewpoint.
"Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man."
Proverbs 15:1
"A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger."
Blessings
Who are those firm dispensationalists that have been quite confrontational towards your views Gigi?
Gigi, I don't recall anyone on this site ever CONFRONT YOU on your eschatology viewpoints!
I don't recall You ever giving a viewpoint!
We're talking about over 2 years ago here!
You never gave an eschatology viewpoint you believed in, but you just knew what you didn't believe in. "dispensationalism".
Later you said Amillennial viewpoint best fits your understanding.
You entered a discussion where you said you believed the Millenium was in Heaven and I showed you certain scriptures that puts it on Earth and you agreed.
Gigi, you have always backed someone's else eschatology doctrine as long as it wasn't dispensationalism.
In fact, you said you would except anything as an alternate.
You have never given a viewpoint that you stuck with entirely and you may have been critique "by me" for not having scripture support for the references of the early Church beliefs that you often referred to.
You have always been the aggressor when it came to dispensationalism.
You openly criticized it!
No one has chased you down in any debate.
I've stayed away from that topic as a debate when someone goes into it with their sleeves rolled up.
The last extensive debate I had on this topic was no intended debate at all! I tried to avoid it.
That was with Jimbob and I wouldn't engage him.
It wasn't until I returned from vacation a week later where I saw where you rallied behind him, so I sought after your scripture support behind your theology, and you had none.
I have never chased you down about Eschatology viewpoints.
I can respect anyone who can show what they believe in or what they don't believe in, as long as they have correct scripture support.
See Part 2.
I probably forgot as likely you mentioned this before. I am not planning on a big discussion on that subject at this point anyway as it is our attitude towards Jesus coming back and serving Him now that is most important.
On my study on covenants; I am trying to best address the implications for all mankind as we all are judged because all souls belong to God; ultimately. God covented with Adam and Eve and in some sense we have varying degrees of responsibility based on our knowledge or lack thereof of Him and His statutes. It is noteworthy that God seemed to work through nonbelievers quite often without their knowledge and no doubt some came to saving faith.
Today; it is hard to know how to pray as it seems increasingly hard to determine the "right" side from the wrong; especially in international affairs. In some ways it is good as increased knowledge has stripped away some of the mythology as it were of our actions in the past that in a large part were controlled by ruling elite as they are so clearly today; as they no longer seem to care if that is revealed. God has His own end game and timing; and many would be predecessors have tried to up the ante and bring prophecy to fulfillment before the time. It is hard to balance not being a conspiracy theorist about everything and trusting what anyone says to find the proper middle ground. And the wars that are fought are with remote control drones and such and missiles; rather than tanks and large scale land invasions. It would seem both a land war and nuclear will encompass the Ezekiel 38 war; and it isn't out of the question literal horses could be used in the mountain passes along with advanced weaponry.
Anyway; I appreciate your input and encouragement.
Agape.
I do not think that a respectful discussion on the topic of whether there will be a rapture or not would or should end a friendship here or elsewhere.
You did seem to ask me what I thought about this topic and I answered truthfully. I do not have a problem fellowshipping with those who differ from my views on this topic as it does not touch on our salvation or on the nature of God that would indicate da false view of who He is on a major doctrine of the shared faith passed down through the apostles.
There are many topics that can be discussed on this forum. Eschatology is not one I bring up for discussion as, from what I have studied, there are at least 5 eschatological positions held by believers. And for many of us, our view has changed over time. Mine has and this is because I what I found in Scriptures eliminated the majority of views. But even the amillennial view does not completely address all aspects of eschatology as I can tell. So, with this in mind, I am hesitant to speak of myself as being one who holds to any of these views without question. I look to Scriptures and try to find what is consistently taught concerning the return of Jesus and the times leading up to this glorious which also brings our resurrection and glorification for eternity.
I suppose that none of us who are in Christ have found even one person who believes the same on all topics. So, we are to hear one another out and take what they say to the Scriptures and see if it is truly taught in the Word of Truth. We are to examine our own doctrines and views against the Scriptures also. If we do both of these things with humility, bending to the work of the Holy Spirit, and without hostility towards others who think differently than one does, we can have peaceful fellowship along with a good conscience.
I know that your aim is to discuss God's covenantal workings in the lives of those who are His. And I think that is a topic we can profit from examining.
While what is called the rapture it's timing and importance might not effect a man's salvation a mistaken belief about it might and could well effect that persons ability to be " ready" when Jesus comes (His coming is beyond all dispute .)
The scriptures teach for instance of " suffering loss as through fire" as exemplified by Lot . Who lost everything but the salvation of his soul .
There is also the loss as suffered by the 5 foolish virgins who were barred from the " marriage" but are not barred from the kingdom . For they heard the words " I know you not" meaning unrecognisable as the bride . Where as those barred from the kingdom hear the words " I never knew you" and are unrecognisable as sons of God bearing not His image in them..
It seems that there is an idea in the church that as soon as you are BORN again you are automatically qualified to be in the Bride of Christ. This is the consequence of reducing the gospel or our Salvation to being a born again with very little teaching of the meat of thecWord of God . Make no mistake every true born child of God is called " to that high calling" it qualifies us to "run the race" but it does not win us the prize . For there are prizes or crowns to be won . Rewards .
That don't save our souls that's Gods work . That's the foundation and we must be careful what we build upin it says Paul.
If we build but hay wood and stubble is that not works of the flesh?
Lot the counted righteous nevertheless walked by sight and not by faith.
And was thus unprepared and unaware of the hour in which he lived.
While Abraham who walked by faith was in a place where God couid reveal what he was about to do and was therefore in a place where he could intercede for Lot .
The Laodocian church was also blind and if they did not repent wouid be spewed out into " tribulation" that is the " great tribulation" it is interesting to note that the last king of Isreal was blind as also the last judge
The two words convey two very different things and while you might argue how can you have a mansion in a house? A mansion is greater than a room!
In my Fathers house is at the very least the household of faith .
Which is a very big house to say the least. With more than a few " Rooms".
For what is a brother or sister ? And what is a neighbour?
A brother is someone of the same household and of the same father .
A neighbour is of another household and of another father .
I'm not nit nicking but rather seek to show how more often than not so any transmits are always 'less" then in the KJV.
And if we have so many translations with so many difffernt words with p,Ely diffetent meanings by wht crterea do we choos one over the other? Th English language is very rich and is able to convey y its words breadth depth ad high of meaning thT most other languages cannot .We should have more confidence in the KJV and any ' problems' we might he with it as in this case of a " house" having many " mansions" should not be discarded because it is not so easy to understand fr an easier translation but which does not convey the same meaning .But rather we should seek the understanding of it as it is given .
Yours in Christ . Gerald .
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