The Spirit has led me to discuss this; once again with some previous themes I have undertaken no doubt several times on this site. I would appreciate prayer as I have some time away to collect my thoughts should there be more to say here on this subject.
I believe that as with no other topic of late the sea of internet forums on this topic focused particularly on dreams and visions has oftentimes done more harm than good. I seek to speak what I sense the Lord has shown me; realizing that already puts a target on my back so to speak. I pray that those who have followed me here will at least test the spirits; as it were as to anything I am saying and will realize that I am not the type to sensationalize or make up anything that I haven't sensed many times from the Lord in the past. My goal is to sound the alarm to anyone listening; whether a believer or nonbeliever stumbles upon this information.
I am going to state a couple things that no doubt will raise controversy; the idea that not everyone confessing Christ will be raptured; and that the Spirit of God still exists after the event. There are some who are called and chosen but are not appointed to rise up according to His plan and Providence until after the Rapture; likely the countless multitude of Revelation 9.
There are also many today who have backslidden and are; from what I can tell in scripture not prepared for the Rapture and likely left behind. There are also those who will as in all ages that will have little to show for themselves in regard to spiritual rewards; this would encompass the resurrected saints of old perhaps primarily. My main idea is that the Laodicean church of today is characterized by pride and self worth determined by possessions; and they literally will find themselves poor; blind and naked as Revelation 3:17. Many will be refined as martyrs; some could hide out and be as those warned about in Revelation 16:15.
Your right about " dreams and visions" they are not the source of a right understanding but rather as always it must be the scriptures . Peter in spite of him being on the mount of transfiguration and seeng things most of the Apostles did not see said nevertheless we have a better foundation meaning the scriptures .
His revelation of Jesus that " He was the Christ the Son of the living God" was confirmed by the ' first 'Comforter as true but he took it as all the revelation of God and when the Lord began to reveal more as to His coming rejection suffering and death ( accirding to the s riotures) Peter rejected it and began to correct the Lord!
And the Lord had to severely rebuke him . That rebuke not many wouod take and still walk with the Lord.
All indeed who are His are " called" and every true born child of God is given the opportunity to run the race and win the prizes but there is a great misunderstanding about election ,people looking it from man's perspective rather than Gods .
True it does say " many are calked but few are chosen " But that is not all the scriptures tell us.
To the world all are calked to reoent and " belueve on the Lord Jesus Christ" John 3:16.
The promise is to all who do .
For God is NOT willing that ANY shouid oetish but that ALL shouid come to a knowledge of the truth "
If God says ALL we had better believe it. Are all saved ? No.
But it IS Gods will that they are.
If I be lifted up saud Jesus on the cross " I will draw ALL men unto Me" that all means all none are excluded all are included .
To resist the will of God for your salvation is to bring destruction upon your own head to deny the irrifutable is it not to bring damnation upion your own soul?
So likewise behold I stand at the door and knock is a call to the WHOLE church to repent but the promise is only to "those who have ears to hear ."
It is not exposure to truth that changes anybody but our response to it .
It seems to me that if God did indeed, in eternity past looked ahead into history to see who would believe and then elected those, God's choice was dependent on the choices of individual persons and therefore, God would have had to gain knowledge from history to make His choice, which goes against Him being omniscient, knowing all things at once, and never needing to gain any new knowledge that what He possessed prior to creation. And if His election of persons was dependent on what creatures would choose this would go against His sovereignty-that His depends on nothing created, being outside of Himself.
Since Scriptures clearly teach that unregenerate persons cannot CHOOSE to believe without grace which is given when one who is DEAD in sin is made alive in Christ (regenerated) and thus brought to faith and repentance after becoming alive from being dead in sin and enemies of God. So, no unregenerated person can ever choose to have faith in Jesus. It is impossible. We must be born again and given all that is needed to be brought to belief and salvation by God and Him alone.
I guess it may just come down to some of the questions Paul posits in Romans 9 as to whether God is just, whether He has the absolute right to do as He pleases with the same lump of clay (all humanity) as to election and reprobation, and our response to Paul's answers to the questions he posited. It also comes down to whether or not we truly trust God to make all these decision without ay input from any of us and whether we believe that He is truly good in all thing and all that He chooses is truly good and is truly all-wise and right in His own counsel, and if His choices being based on His good pleasure for His own glory is something we gladly embrace or fight against. Also, I think that it comes down to whether we will sacrifice our insistence of possessing a will that is free to choose to believe in Jesus or not, our own autonomy and authority to be our own boss to submit to God.
Hi GiGi, peace. now I think you are writing a bit strange here. It is just as if you are describing God as changeable. Jesus brother James 1:17 describes God like this. For the Lord does not do, does not decide, does not make rules like we do. That means He saw us in His image when He created everything. Think about it, in all things it is so overwhelming that it is impossible for me to see how big it is. In the Old Testament we see that He could change. In the New Testament we see Jesus working, He can change things, but I am not so sure about that, not the basic things. But what is good to know is that He is in control. See: An answer to prayer when you talk to the Lord, and He knows all thoughts, motivates everything. And suddenly we are there one with Him. Believe then that is the most important moment for every christian. And know, get confirmation that the life of faith is alive. Stay close to Jesus Joh 3
No, I do not believe that God in His nature changes. All that He is as a self-existent, sovereign, infinite, and being always remains the same. Internally so, God is always perfect in all aspects of His nature therefore there is no need for any adjustment, improvements, or gaining of any aspect of any attribute.
God's actions within creation and history have a mutable aspect in that He can change what He will do in any situation as He sees fit. But this is different than His nature which never changes.
I do hope that Gerald will get back to me and respond. I always welcome people giving clarification to what they have stated that they believe as far as doctrine. We all have need for refinement of our understanding of the doctrines of the faith passed down to us by the Lord and the apostles. Discussing our understanding together in respectful and truly sincere interest does some of this refinement as the Holy Spirit guides our thinking to helps our minds, intellect, reasoning, knowledge, and convictions align with that of Jesus more and more as our time here in this life continues.
I did not grow up knowing much about the topics of election, predestination and what God decreed to come to be in eternity past. But as I read more and more of Scripture I came upon statements that spoke of "before the foundation of the world" too often to neglect seeking better understanding. Soon I will to post what I have grown to understand about these things. I am committing it all to prayer at present before I begin to post.
Free, sometimes it helps to read another's post a few times before we respond and also to read what our own responses back before we post to be sure that we are clearly communicating our thinking on the ideas presented. I need to do the latter more often, but I do usually re-read what someone posts before I begin to respond.
I believe that election, predestination, and salvation is all monergistic, which means that God is the only one who works these things and He does so without any willingness to be saved on the part of any human. It was all according to God's eternal decree and purpose that was all from God and none from man.
God does all things for His own glory as a primacy for His will and action. By decreeing all who would be elected according to His good pleasure, freedom, and wisdom completely without any aspect of man's will or willingness to believe, what He decreed will surely come to pass because of His omniscience and omnipotence.
It took me a very long time to come to accept these things but the more I read Ephesians and Romans, I came to know these things to be true. Our sinful nature rises up in defiance against a decree that is completely irrespective of what man may choose and made completely independently of any aspect of any human action of will. But I did come to this belief by studying Scripture on this subject. And this happened to me long before I ever had read anything on what Calvin taught or Luther or Arminius.
My recent studying of Calvinism and Lutheranism and Arminianism (since 2020) only confirms what I had already come to believed from studying Scripture alone. Prior to this I really did not know much about any of these "isms".
I know that you do not believe as I do and I believe that there is room on this forum for us to present our own understandings of doctrines and Scriptures. We are all growing and learning over time because the Holy Spirit does have a good end for each of us so He builds us up in the faith taught in Scriptures. If you can show me where in Scriptures it teaches that God based election on looking down into time to see whom would believe the Gospel, then I may give your perspective more consideration and prayer.
Hello again GiGi, unfortunately I am too quick to answer. I have to calm down now sorry. And I have to add a word here, even though I have the total conviction that "Gerald" can answer for himself.
The selection God takes into account is the difference between hate and love. He cannot tolerate, see, injustice. We are talking about a selection that explains evil. Everything that stands against the Lord Almighty God. He cannot see. GB
In regards to Peter, it always comforts me to know his response to Jesus in John 6 (I believe) when asked if he (Peter) and the other apostles would leave Jesus just as many were because of Jesus' teaching in that chapter. Peter said, "To whom else shall we go, for You have the words of eternal life." This is a conviction and truth that helps us to stay with Jesus even when things look "twisted" or uncertain or difficult. We stay with Him because we are the elect of God and cannot be snatched out of His hand because the Father has drawn us to Jesus and the Spirit has regenerated us. We truly have no one else to turn to but our Savior!
I respect your point of view on election, but I do not find anywhere in Scripture that teaches that God in eternity past ever chose to elect anyone because He foresaw the one who would believe.
In fact, Rom. 9:10-13 says that Jacob was loved (and chosen), not Esau, even before either had done anything good or evil. Several verse later ( Rom. 9:15-16) Paul tells us that God's choice of whom to show mercy was not based on the will of any man or anything in man but solely based in God's own counsel, as Eph. 1:1-11 tells us. And later in Rom. 9:20-23 we are told that God elected some to salvation and others to wrath for the purpose of to show both His wrath to those not elected and mercy to those He chose to elect -decisions that He made beforehand. This was decreed not because of foreseen faith but because of God foreknowingly loved before creation ( Eph. 1:3-6) None of these verses teach that election was made based upon foreseen faith. And Romans 3:9-11 clearly teaches that no one prior to regeneration and faith is able to choose salvation nor seek after God because all unregenerated people are unable to do so due to our will being enslaved to sin. ( Rom. 6:17; 7:5) Apart from God's grace, unregenerated humans can only choose NOT to believe the Gospel but can ONLY choose that which is sinful.
The Spirit has led me to discuss this; once again with some previous themes I have undertaken no doubt several times on this site. I would appreciate prayer as I have some time away to collect my thoughts should there be more to say here on this subject.
I believe that as with no other topic of late the sea of internet forums on this topic focused particularly on dreams and visions has oftentimes done more harm than good. I seek to speak what I sense the Lord has shown me; realizing that already puts a target on my back so to speak. I pray that those who have followed me here will at least test the spirits; as it were as to anything I am saying and will realize that I am not the type to sensationalize or make up anything that I haven't sensed many times from the Lord in the past. My goal is to sound the alarm to anyone listening; whether a believer or nonbeliever stumbles upon this information.
I am going to state a couple things that no doubt will raise controversy; the idea that not everyone confessing Christ will be raptured; and that the Spirit of God still exists after the event. There are some who are called and chosen but are not appointed to rise up according to His plan and Providence until after the Rapture; likely the countless multitude of Revelation 9.
There are also many today who have backslidden and are; from what I can tell in scripture not prepared for the Rapture and likely left behind. There are also those who will as in all ages that will have little to show for themselves in regard to spiritual rewards; this would encompass the resurrected saints of old perhaps primarily. My main idea is that the Laodicean church of today is characterized by pride and self worth determined by possessions; and they literally will find themselves poor; blind and naked as Revelation 3:17. Many will be refined as martyrs; some could hide out and be as those warned about in Revelation 16:15.
His revelation of Jesus that " He was the Christ the Son of the living God" was confirmed by the ' first 'Comforter as true but he took it as all the revelation of God and when the Lord began to reveal more as to His coming rejection suffering and death ( accirding to the s riotures) Peter rejected it and began to correct the Lord!
And the Lord had to severely rebuke him . That rebuke not many wouod take and still walk with the Lord.
All indeed who are His are " called" and every true born child of God is given the opportunity to run the race and win the prizes but there is a great misunderstanding about election ,people looking it from man's perspective rather than Gods .
True it does say " many are calked but few are chosen " But that is not all the scriptures tell us.
To the world all are calked to reoent and " belueve on the Lord Jesus Christ" John 3:16.
The promise is to all who do .
For God is NOT willing that ANY shouid oetish but that ALL shouid come to a knowledge of the truth "
If God says ALL we had better believe it. Are all saved ? No.
But it IS Gods will that they are.
If I be lifted up saud Jesus on the cross " I will draw ALL men unto Me" that all means all none are excluded all are included .
To resist the will of God for your salvation is to bring destruction upon your own head to deny the irrifutable is it not to bring damnation upion your own soul?
So likewise behold I stand at the door and knock is a call to the WHOLE church to repent but the promise is only to "those who have ears to hear ."
It is not exposure to truth that changes anybody but our response to it .
God has elected that those who respond ..l.l
It seems to me that if God did indeed, in eternity past looked ahead into history to see who would believe and then elected those, God's choice was dependent on the choices of individual persons and therefore, God would have had to gain knowledge from history to make His choice, which goes against Him being omniscient, knowing all things at once, and never needing to gain any new knowledge that what He possessed prior to creation. And if His election of persons was dependent on what creatures would choose this would go against His sovereignty-that His depends on nothing created, being outside of Himself.
Since Scriptures clearly teach that unregenerate persons cannot CHOOSE to believe without grace which is given when one who is DEAD in sin is made alive in Christ (regenerated) and thus brought to faith and repentance after becoming alive from being dead in sin and enemies of God. So, no unregenerated person can ever choose to have faith in Jesus. It is impossible. We must be born again and given all that is needed to be brought to belief and salvation by God and Him alone.
I guess it may just come down to some of the questions Paul posits in Romans 9 as to whether God is just, whether He has the absolute right to do as He pleases with the same lump of clay (all humanity) as to election and reprobation, and our response to Paul's answers to the questions he posited. It also comes down to whether or not we truly trust God to make all these decision without ay input from any of us and whether we believe that He is truly good in all thing and all that He chooses is truly good and is truly all-wise and right in His own counsel, and if His choices being based on His good pleasure for His own glory is something we gladly embrace or fight against. Also, I think that it comes down to whether we will sacrifice our insistence of possessing a will that is free to choose to believe in Jesus or not, our own autonomy and authority to be our own boss to submit to God.
No, I do not believe that God in His nature changes. All that He is as a self-existent, sovereign, infinite, and being always remains the same. Internally so, God is always perfect in all aspects of His nature therefore there is no need for any adjustment, improvements, or gaining of any aspect of any attribute.
God's actions within creation and history have a mutable aspect in that He can change what He will do in any situation as He sees fit. But this is different than His nature which never changes.
I do hope that Gerald will get back to me and respond. I always welcome people giving clarification to what they have stated that they believe as far as doctrine. We all have need for refinement of our understanding of the doctrines of the faith passed down to us by the Lord and the apostles. Discussing our understanding together in respectful and truly sincere interest does some of this refinement as the Holy Spirit guides our thinking to helps our minds, intellect, reasoning, knowledge, and convictions align with that of Jesus more and more as our time here in this life continues.
I did not grow up knowing much about the topics of election, predestination and what God decreed to come to be in eternity past. But as I read more and more of Scripture I came upon statements that spoke of "before the foundation of the world" too often to neglect seeking better understanding. Soon I will to post what I have grown to understand about these things. I am committing it all to prayer at present before I begin to post.
Free, sometimes it helps to read another's post a few times before we respond and also to read what our own responses back before we post to be sure that we are clearly communicating our thinking on the ideas presented. I need to do the latter more often, but I do usually re-read what someone posts before I begin to respond.
Pt. 2
I believe that election, predestination, and salvation is all monergistic, which means that God is the only one who works these things and He does so without any willingness to be saved on the part of any human. It was all according to God's eternal decree and purpose that was all from God and none from man.
God does all things for His own glory as a primacy for His will and action. By decreeing all who would be elected according to His good pleasure, freedom, and wisdom completely without any aspect of man's will or willingness to believe, what He decreed will surely come to pass because of His omniscience and omnipotence.
It took me a very long time to come to accept these things but the more I read Ephesians and Romans, I came to know these things to be true. Our sinful nature rises up in defiance against a decree that is completely irrespective of what man may choose and made completely independently of any aspect of any human action of will. But I did come to this belief by studying Scripture on this subject. And this happened to me long before I ever had read anything on what Calvin taught or Luther or Arminius.
My recent studying of Calvinism and Lutheranism and Arminianism (since 2020) only confirms what I had already come to believed from studying Scripture alone. Prior to this I really did not know much about any of these "isms".
I know that you do not believe as I do and I believe that there is room on this forum for us to present our own understandings of doctrines and Scriptures. We are all growing and learning over time because the Holy Spirit does have a good end for each of us so He builds us up in the faith taught in Scriptures. If you can show me where in Scriptures it teaches that God based election on looking down into time to see whom would believe the Gospel, then I may give your perspective more consideration and prayer.
See Pt. 3
The selection God takes into account is the difference between hate and love. He cannot tolerate, see, injustice. We are talking about a selection that explains evil. Everything that stands against the Lord Almighty God. He cannot see. GB
In regards to Peter, it always comforts me to know his response to Jesus in John 6 (I believe) when asked if he (Peter) and the other apostles would leave Jesus just as many were because of Jesus' teaching in that chapter. Peter said, "To whom else shall we go, for You have the words of eternal life." This is a conviction and truth that helps us to stay with Jesus even when things look "twisted" or uncertain or difficult. We stay with Him because we are the elect of God and cannot be snatched out of His hand because the Father has drawn us to Jesus and the Spirit has regenerated us. We truly have no one else to turn to but our Savior!
I respect your point of view on election, but I do not find anywhere in Scripture that teaches that God in eternity past ever chose to elect anyone because He foresaw the one who would believe.
In fact, Rom. 9:10-13 says that Jacob was loved (and chosen), not Esau, even before either had done anything good or evil. Several verse later ( Rom. 9:15-16) Paul tells us that God's choice of whom to show mercy was not based on the will of any man or anything in man but solely based in God's own counsel, as Eph. 1:1-11 tells us. And later in Rom. 9:20-23 we are told that God elected some to salvation and others to wrath for the purpose of to show both His wrath to those not elected and mercy to those He chose to elect -decisions that He made beforehand. This was decreed not because of foreseen faith but because of God foreknowingly loved before creation ( Eph. 1:3-6) None of these verses teach that election was made based upon foreseen faith. And Romans 3:9-11 clearly teaches that no one prior to regeneration and faith is able to choose salvation nor seek after God because all unregenerated people are unable to do so due to our will being enslaved to sin. ( Rom. 6:17; 7:5) Apart from God's grace, unregenerated humans can only choose NOT to believe the Gospel but can ONLY choose that which is sinful.
See part2
This comment thread is locked. Please enter a new comment below to start a new comment thread.
Note: Comment threads older than 2 months are automatically locked.
Do you have a Bible comment or question?
Posting comments is currently unavailable due to high demand on the server.
Please check back in an hour or more. Thank you for your patience!
Report Comment
Which best represents the problem with the comment?