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Thus says the scripture...
According to the New Testament, the Church, the Body of Christ will be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ (Greek: Bma), and that judgment will be based on the gospel committed to Paul - what he calls "my gospel."
1. The Judgment Seat of Christ
Romans 14:10
"for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."
2 Corinthians 5:10
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."
This judgment is not for salvation, but for reward or loss of reward ( 1 Cor. 3:13-15). It applies only to believers - the Body of Christ.
2. What Gospel Will Be the Standard?
Romans 2:16
"In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."
Here, Paul states plainly that God will judge according to his gospel - the gospel of grace revealed to him ( Gal. 1:11-12).
3. What Is "Paul's Gospel"?
Paul's gospel is centered on:
Salvation by grace through faith, without works ( Eph. 2:8-9)
The death, burial, and resurrection of Christ as the basis of salvation ( 1 Cor. 15:1-4)
The heavenly calling and spiritual blessings in Christ ( Eph. 1:3; Phil. 3:20)
Conclusion
At the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Church - the Body of Christ - will be judged:
Not by the Law of Moses
Not by the Gospel of the Kingdom ( Matt. 4:23; Gal. 2:7)
But "according to Paul's gospel" - the gospel of the grace of God ( Acts 20:24)
This judgment evaluates how believers lived and served in response to the grace they received, not whether they are saved. Salvation is secure ( Rom. 8:1), but rewards are at stake ( 1 Cor. 3:14-15).
Natural world is where we have been taught of evolution and survival of thhe fittest etc.; God created the earth, it was not created in vain. It was to be inhabited. "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else."(Isa.45.18)
God created a parallel world which is framed by the word of God. Faith is the DNA of everyone born in this world. They are in Christ so they are not instructed by carnal wisdom of godless man, but taught of God.( John 6.45) God has given us the document where instruction in righteousness has only one theme. Jesus Christ is before all things and by him all things consist. (Col.1.17,19; Col.2.9-10) This requires wisdom from heaven and is freely given.
So what is natural world to this world framed by the word. As tares to the field where good seed is sown. Both shall grow side by side, till the earth is ripe.
My question in regard to verse
Revelation 20:12
How many books were opened?
Where is the reference to sins we have committed?
and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Revelation 20:12-13
God will judge personal sin. THE "LEFT HAND PROPLE"
The Bible is clear that individuals who practice sin will be judged. For example, there's a large laundry list of sin in Romans 1:29-31.
(29) Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,"
(30) Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,"
(31)Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:"
Paul clearly states that God will judge those who practice those things.
Romans 2:2
"But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things."
Romans 2:3
"And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Revelation 21:8
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
This portion of scripture
also gives us a list of those who practice sins and what will become of them.
Likewise, Hebrews tells us God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterers.
Hebrews 13:4
"Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge."
To top it all off, Jesus himself says the one who rejects Him will be judged.
John 12:48
"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, THE SAME SHALL JUDGE HIM IN THE LAST DAY.
So the conclusion is unavoidable-God is Good
Sorry for the delayed reply.
It's good to hear from you. Different understandings of this subject may disagree with mine. I'm not sure I can fully answer your questions; others may have more information, but I will share my best understanding. Many believe the great white throne judgment is only for the condemned, but I think there will be both groups, as you mentioned, with the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25. We also have Daniel 12:2, which seems to refer to the same resurrection, and John 5:28-29, where the ones who did good and those who did evil are in the same resurrection.
This second resurrection includes the rest of the dead who were not in the first resurrection, as well as all the people who lived and died during Jesus' 1,000-year reign over the earth. Some also lived before Jesus and after His ascension, who never heard of Jesus or the gospel. But that is not an excuse, Romans 1:18-20.
I believe Romans 2:11-16 is about the judgment of those who have not heard the gospel. You may not agree, but it tells us that everyone has a conscience, referred to as the heart, Proverbs 4:23. Everyone has an awareness of God, which guides us morally in discerning right from wrong. Those of us in Christ who are in the first resurrection have been given the Holy Spirit, which offers us even more guidance, and God and Christ can dwell within us, with our sins covered by the blood of Jesus.
It says everyone will be judged based on what is written in the books, according to their works. This is a book of deeds listing good and bad. It may be the same as the book of remembrance; I'm not sure. I would think the book of the law would be opened, Deuteronomy 30:10-15. Some may say the book of the covenant is the same as the book of the law, and the Book of Life; they may be more, but I'm not sure. Those in this judgment not found in the most important book, the Book of Life, have their part in the Lake of Fire.
God bless,
RLW
8/26/25__
I am grateful for your reply to my Question on Revelations 20:12-15
earlier this month. You inspired me to study some more. I have learned a lot. Thank you for sharing that with us.
To God be the Glory and may he bless us all. Amen.
Hi again Lbooth1955. Clearly, you are passionate about getting this point across to us, about the difference between Paul's Gospel, as opposed to any other presentation. The main points you raised: a) Paul's (or my) Gospel; b) revelation of this Mystery; and c) Gospel of the Kingdom.
a) Paul not only received his salvation by direct revelation from Heaven ( Acts 9:3-9), but also was taught, exercised in faith, & had revelations as to his ministry separate from any outside influence ( Galatians 1:11-18). Thus what he learned became what he often spoke of as "my Gospel", which implies that he received it directly from the Lord and was charged to make it known chiefly to the Gentiles.
So the question, how was this Gospel any different to say what the other apostles preached? The only other apostle's preaching, that is often recorded is that of Peter. And when I consider his presentations (found in Acts 2:14-41; Acts 3:11-19; Acts 4:6-12; Acts 10:34-48), I find that the same Gospel was preached by Peter (i.e. nothing extra or different to Paul's Gospel, apart from the specifics relating to his audience: their knowledge of the Scriptures & events surrounding Jesus' Life on Earth). His Gospel was the same as Paul's: the need for repentance, faith, calling upon Jesus for salvation.
b) the Mystery. Paul does speak of this revelation given to him, but did not the others know about Gentiles also receiving this blessing of salvation after hearing the Gospel? Peter spoke about him being sent to the Gentiles ( Acts 15:7; Acts chap 10 (Cornelius, a Gentile). And Peter, through the vision of the unclean animals given for him to eat ( Acts 10:9-17), understood that this Mystery that Paul spoke about, was also given to him to understand. Even Paul spoke of this ( Ephesians 3:3-6) that the present apostles and prophets were made aware of this mystery, that the Gentiles would be fellow-heirs, or the same Body, and partakers of the promises. Onto Page 2.
For each child of God is also born of the Spirit of God and even as the Minister is led so too the ministered to who by the Spirit understands what is being said .
A lot of the problems in the church today and among many believers is they are blindly following their 'leaders' .
But is it not written that if the Holy Spirit dwelleth in you you have no need for any to teach you"? But then why give " teachers" to the church? It means we have by the Spirit of Truth no one to teach us truth from error or good from evil and we bybHim then are led as they are " till we all come to a unity of the faith" faith comes by understanding the Word of God we by those given to the church for its perfection come to " have the same mind" the same judgement".
We are not all Paul's etc nor does man live by revelations but even as all scripture was given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit so by the same measure He is needed to understand what is written .
A true Apostle of God therefore articulates that revelation in a manner that instructs builds up and perfects the saints .
What comes from God leads all men to God . Clearly there are a lot of false apostles and prophets about who do no such thing .
But clearly a lot of Gods people are not being led. Or walking in the Spirit either who are so easily misled by them for reasons given above .
While there are great " mysteries" that did not mean Paul did not desire and pray for Gods people to have the eyes of their understanding opened" and by his letters sought to convey what he had been taught by Him the great Teacher.
In John's epistle, the thought there is that the Holy Spirit will show us when erroneous teaching or doctrine is presented; that if we abide in Christ & follow the doctrines delivered to us, we will remain on track. And to help us along, the Church is blessed to have teachers to guide us in the Word & appropriate that Word in our lives. Maybe we should see them as God's instruments who, with the Holy Spirit, confirm to us the Word and help us increase in knowledge and faith, thereby baring more fruit to glorify our LORD.
And did Peter ever require that Gentile converts obey the OT Laws or be circumcised, even though that matter came up for consideration ( Acts 15:5-11)? So, neither the need for coming under the Law was preached by Peter: that salvation was only by grace through faith.
c) The Gospel of the Kingdom was only given by the Lord Himself (as in Matthew 24:14), which seemed specific to Jesus' teaching and acts pertaining to God's requirements for His people.
When I consider the ministry of Jesus, Peter and Paul, I understand that all of them direct us to consider God's Love and His Provision for the salvation of both Jew & Gentile. Both Peter & Paul saw in the Gospel that the Jew & Gentile could be saved, but Paul expanded that further (at least from what is declared to us), that we will be one Body, which is Christ, and exercising the blessings of the Holy Spirit within His Church and beyond to the unreached.
Yes, there are some differences in their messages, but at the core, they are exactly the same, for neither of them brought in any teaching contrary to what Christ's Sacrifice provided and demanded. If the Jews needed to turn from trusting in the Law & their election - if the Gentiles needed to turn from their idols and false gods - both Jew and Gentile could only be accepted by God by turning away (repentance) and faith (in Christ alone & nothing else) for their salvation. I believe the apostles, including Paul, knew this and preached this, but how they presented it would vary according to where the people were at in their culture, belief system and questions raised. And it would be the same today, whether preaching to our local folk or going into another culture: the message core will always be the same, but the message body will give answer to where the people are at.
regarding your comment..."Jew and Gentile could only be accepted by God by turning away (repentance) and faith (in Christ alone & nothing else) for their salvation"
I believe this to be partly true... 2 examples are...
Peter and James,
Key apostles to the circumcision, emphasized faith but also included works in their message. In Acts 2:38, Peter calls for repentance and baptism for remission of sins. James 2:17-26 stresses that faith without works is dead, using Abraham and Rahab as examples. Their message aligns with the Jewish Kingdom gospel, where obedience and works were expressions of living faith, distinct from Paul's gospel of grace through faith alone.
My friend, anything that adds to GRACE ALONE is a WORK and is directly associated with the KINGDOM GOSPEL.
If it is but partly true that both Jew and Gentile can only be saved through Jesus Vhrist alone and by the grace of God and " not if works " then by that reasoning everyone is partly saved .This is impossible .
You are either saved or you are not . Dead or alive .light or darkness .
The works of the law which is what Paul was speaking about no Jew or gentile is saved by that law for by that law we both are condemned . The letter to the Romans proves that beyond all reasonable doubt . And it is all of grace and not if works " lest any man should boast" and thinks he deserved to be saved ( like Cain ).
James was speaking about the works of faith . Which proved his faith .
Two very different works . Each preaching the same gospel but each speaking about different works . One by which we cannot be saved by and the other proving our faith in Christ .
"Showing the fruits of repentance " said John to the Pharisees .
Or " salvation has come to this house " said Jesus by the fruits that were shown in giving back the money that the tax collector had 'stolen'. With interest .
He did not save himself by doing so but rather having been converted by Christ proved his faith by a changed life.
When Hitler spoke or used the word " peace" and Neville Chamberlain the British PM used the word " peace" though they said the same words both had two very different ideas in mind about 'peace' .
Just because Paul and James used the same word " works" does not mean they were speaking about the same thing .
Though in this case both were right in what they taught .
Hitkers idea if peace was perverse and corrupt . Neville Chamberlain idea of peace was perhaps more honourable the trouble was he was trying to make peace with a man hell bent on war and wanted peace at any price to avoid it.
Your post is illuminating. The preconception of the meaning of a word makes the difference in how we hear the word of God. Where our mind goes when we hear the word works matters. When we see or hear that word, do we only see the works of the law? It becomes a scotoma, and we fail to see the true meaning of what Scripture, like the book of James, is saying. We all have preconceived ideas imprinted in our minds that we would benefit from taking a big broom and sweeping our minds clean.
Works are, as you refer to them, works of faith that produce fruit we are supposed to be doing and on which we will be judged. We see how many times Jesus spoke of the importance of producing fruit, and we should also not ignore the warnings about not producing fruit.
We see that mankind will be judged according to their works, whether they are good or evil. Many understand this is only for the lost, but is it?
Revelation 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Thank you,
God bless,
RLW
Revelation 20:12-15.
PART ( 1)
My question in regard to verse
Revelation 20:12
How many books were opened?
Where is the reference to sins we have committed?
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
Malachi 3:18
"Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not."
I understand that the scriptures in
Malachi 3:16 and Matt. 25:33- refers to the RIGHT HAND PEOPLE.
Malachi 3:16
"Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name."King James Version (KJV)
They to whom he promised this reward mentioned in Matt. 25:34
Matthew 25:33
. "another book was opened which is the book of life," refers to the those who are judged by their works that
Jesus named in this Scripture:
"shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Matthew 25:34
"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"
(1) God will judge on what is written in those books. Including his Word to us by the Prophets and His Son. Our High Priest, Jesus Christ.
(2) GOD's judgement is based o
I just noticed you replied to me. I did not get an email. Give me a little time, maybe tomorrow, but I will get back to you. Thank you for your reply.
God bless,
RLW
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
Blessings
But about works that are judged .
There is that judgement of the lost and the wicked which will be unto condemnation and each will find it " more tolerable" or less accordingly .
Hitler will find it exceedingly intolerable where another not so .
But all will like the man in he'll be in torment .
The saved and found in the book of life will also be judged but not unto condemnation but according to their works as to what sort they are . " hay wood or stubble " works of the flesh . Or spiritual of one sort and another .
Those who built of hay wood and stubble "will suffer loss as through fire" Lot comes to mind as an example .
Those who were more " careful what they built on the foundations" will be rewarded .
There are crowns to be won and there are crowns that can be lost . " be careful no one steals your crown ".
To " win the prize" says Paul we must run lawfully . That is not works of the law ( again) but according to the rules of the race so to speak . We if His are in the kingdom of God of Gods dear Son who is the King . There is the Law of sin and death and there is the Law of Christ and of Life . And again we have two very different things .
This perhaps is in some measure the understanding about " rightly dividing the Word ".
Like with like spiritual with spiritual .
When my son was born to my delight I saw my image in him . He bore my image because he came from me I was his father .
If I had not been his father hecwouid not have born my image but the image of his true father and I wouod have rejected him as my son.
A person who finds himself in hell will not be so much because he has sinned ,for who has not sinned? But because God couid not see His image in them . Why? Because they had rejected Jesus Christ the express image of the invisible God .
Another example how no 'works' of the flesh and of the Law cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear or turn leaf into gold .
GB
Sorry, I misunderstood. We sometimes overlook the simplicity of Christ and what Scripture is truly saying about what is to come. Not everyone who has lived has heard of the saving grace given in Jesus Christ. If those who are cast into the lake of fire and burn forever, they also have been given the gift of eternal life. Not so, they will perish.
God bless,
RLW
Thanks Lbooth1955 for your reply.
Re: Acts 2:38. I believe that the inclusion of baptism in his Gospel message, was simply Peter's obedience to the Lord's command given to him (as also given to the other apostles), shown in Matthew 28:20,21: 'to go, teach, baptize'. Anything less would have meant disobedience. And even Paul continued to follow this practise declaring in 1 Corinthians 1:14-16. It is true, that Paul stated that "Christ sent him not to baptise, but to preach.." and yet he baptized. So, it should be understood that baptizing believers was left to others (the Church?) to perform while Paul focussed himself more on preaching the Gospel. Probably similar to an evangelist (e.g. the late Billy Graham), who makes preaching his primary work and left the counseling and baptism of new believers to others.
And for James 2:17-26, it is understood that he didn't support faith + works required for salvation, rather his message here is from verse 14. He questions the authenticity of one's faith, where works resulting from that faith is absent. And he gives the example of a fellow-believer found in a destitute condition. Can a true believer lovingly tell that poor soul, 'God bless you brother - I will pray for you that God provide for your needs'? Rather, the saving faith that is in us, by the Holy Spirit, urges us to render all support necessary, being the very hands of compassion & provision to that needy one. So, the examples of Abraham & Rahab are valid, except their faith was not based on the Gospel, but their belief in God working out His purposes, resulting in their works revealing their faith in Him. Onto Page 2.
Question...Should we can't mix the kingdom program (preached by Peter, James, and John) with the mystery gospel given to Paul, focus on right division of Scripture ( 2 Timothy 2:15). Let's affirm that all Scripture is inspired and that both Peter and Paul were called by God. The issue isn't about rejecting any part of the Bible but understanding God's progressive revelation.
Peter and the 12 preached the kingdom gospel-a message prophesied in the Old Testament ( Acts 3:21-24). It focused on Israel, the coming earthly kingdom, and required repentance, water baptism, and obedience to the law ( Acts 2:38; Matthew 19:17). This message was based on Jesus being Israel's promised Messiah and King, And was the correct message for that time.
In contrast, Paul received his gospel by direct revelation from the risen Christ ( Galatians 1:11-12). Paul called it the mystery, which had been hidden from ages past but revealed through him ( Romans 16:25; Ephesians 3:3-5). His message centered on justification by grace through faith alone, apart from works ( Romans 4:5), and introduced the Body of Christ, a new creation made up of both Jews and Gentiles with a heavenly hope, not an earthly kingdom, this is key. (not a earthly kingdom)
Mixing these programs leads to confusion-especially on salvation, baptism, and the church's identity. In Acts 15 and Galatians 2, even the apostles agreed that Paul had a distinct ministry to the Gentiles, apart from the kingdom program of Peter and the 12. Paul even said, "Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel" ( 1 Corinthians 1:17), showing a break from the earlier kingdom requirements. "BAPTISM WAS A KINGDOM REQUIREMENT"
Understanding these differences helps us rightly divide God's Word and see how the church today operates under the dispensation of grace, not under Israel's kingdom law. This isn't rejecting the gospels or Peter or the other 11-it's honoring God's design by keeping the messages in their proper place.
God Bless
For did he not also say if the gospel is hid it is to those who belueve not?
He wrote it plain .
For all to see and understand that aspect where both Jew and Gentiles wouod both be reconciled to God by the one body even Christs is once it was revealed something all the scriptures hinted at but ' hidden' .
That's not the gospel it's but the glory of God .
While I may put it imperfectly ,I wonder at the idea in some of two gospels! When Paul said for one thing therevis no other gospel ! Than that which he had already preached. Orare we to think Peter or James was cursed? Fir oreaching another ?
Of course not .
The gospel was first preached by God to Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden .
Who then was the Jew and who then the gentile?
Neither .
Out of that generation came Noah . Was hecJewvir gentile?
Out of his generation came Abraham .
Out of Abraham came Jesus Christ .
Who is the " last Adam ".
And while Peter was the Apostle to the Jews and Paul primarily to the Gentiles Paul proved and showed by biblical argument in the letter to the Romans how both Jews and Gentiles are under the Law ; guilty and both are lost and without hope and need Christ for Salvation and that of grace ( not the law) but by faith in Him who died once and for all sinners .
James spoke of works and Paul spoke of works but while using the same word we're not speaking about the same thing . Paul w speaking about works of the Law by which man is saved . James was speaking about works of faith that proves so to speak your faith . Baptism is a work of faith not of the law . For baptism does not save anyone and how can an unrighteous man do a righteous work? The children of Isreal were already 'saved' from Egypt and from the dominion of Pharoah by the time they crossed Jordon .
Are we to think that Jesus was not 'saved' or righteous when he was baptised?
To be baptised is to be conformed to Christ by faith for is it not written " we are crucified WITH Christ"? That can only be done by first believing God and putting your faith in Christ .
Is it not written we are " reconciled to God by His death" ?How much more then are we saved by His life"?
Are we not " buried WITH Christ in baptism "? How can we do that by the law? For if we die by trying to fulfill the law we cannot rise again for by the law we are condemned and no man is justified by the law .
But even as we by faith are crucified with Christ so also are we buried with Him and what says the scriptures are also ( by faith ) " raised together WITH Him"
Peter did not preach of a kingdom or reestablishment of the Kingdom of Isreal but of the same Kingdom not only of Paul but of the Lord Himself when He taught of the great need to be " BORN again" to both see and enter that kingdom .
Thank you Lbooth1955 for sharing more on how you understand this matter. Let's say that what you believe (pertaining to Peter & the eleven apostle's understanding & performance of water baptism) is what they continued to do after the Lord's direction to them. Of course, I don't quite see it the way you do, as I would then need to make certain assumptions such as, what did those apostles actually understand when Jesus spoke to them and their beliefs on this after His death & resurrection. It is true that they were ministering to a people who were under the Old Covenant, and so their words, requirements & practises would pertain to them alone, rather than to the Gentile. Yet, we can't be sure that Peter & the others knew nothing of what the fuller proper meaning of water baptism was (that it would have the same meaning as if understood by Paul): i.e. a declaration of repentance from dead works & identification with the risen Christ Who was able to cleanse them and save them. After all, John (the Baptist) was the prelude to this in preparation of the coming Messiah Who would "baptize (them) with the Holy Ghost, and with fire" ( Matthew 3:11). Jesus' disciples, not Jesus Himself, continued to baptize ( John 4:2), but His baptism would one day be with the Holy Spirit.
What was once, "water baptism symbolizing repentance, cleansing, and identification with the coming kingdom and Messiah - It was a requirement for entering the prophesied kingdom on earth" (your quote), still continued well after Calvary and must have included the merits of the Cross firmly within its meaning, or else what the apostles believed & practised was totally meaningless, working under the Old Covenant of John's baptism. Onto Page 2.
As you wrote, "Peter and the 11 were still under the Old Covenant framework, even after Jesus' resurrection"; if so, then it wasn't simply a case of preaching to a people & baptising as "a required sign of repentance and national obedience", but a grievous failing by Peter to correctly understand & communicate the difference between what was performed under the Old and what baptism meant under the New Covenant. If this wasn't communicated to the Jews who were being saved and baptized, then Peter's baptising was no different to John's, thus was meaningless in its proper context.
With that in mind, would it then be correct to say that Paul himself didn't fully comprehend this matter of water baptism being Israel-specific & its cessation under the New Covenant? For he himself baptized others ( 1 Corinthians 1:14-16), for which he never apologized nor revised his thinking and practise. Even though v17 states that he was "sent not to baptize but to preach the gospel", it is clear that that was not his emphasis in ministry, leaving the matter to others, but I fail to see where water baptism was done away with because of Paul's special revelations or any time after.
Even Peter, now an older man, would declare in 1 Peter 3:21, "..baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"; that any salvific merit in water baptism was not in the removing of the external grime (as pertaining to Jewish washings), but it answered to a clear conscience before God (of what God had done in Christ and the baptizee's confession & identification with Him). Onto Page 3.
If Peter's baptism was only confined to a "kingdom gospel, focussing on Israel, the coming earthly kingdom, and required repentance, water baptism, and obedience to the law" (your quote), then it is certain that this could never produce a "clear conscience before God", nor for sins forgiven & reception into the family of God, rather the Jew would still be left in the same state as when he left the waters of Jordan under John the Baptist.
To sort out this matter, it seems to me that discussing elements of Peter's and Paul's preaching will always be debatable as more details would be required to help us understand how they viewed baptism, fully. However, what we need to learn is, if water baptism ceased with Paul, when did that happen for it did not happen with him or with anyone else or any place that I can observe in the Bible? I would be in full agreement with you, if there was Scripture to give an expiry date for water baptism, as was given for Christ's Sacrifice ushering in the New Covenant in His Blood, thus making the Old redundant ( Hebrews 8:6,7,13).
Thank you for your recent reply. I enjoyed reading everything you included in your reply. I believe in my heart of hearts that we agree on more than we disagree on, and you are correct in your statement that there is no place in scripture where it states that baptism had ceased, and I do agree with that statement. I think the sticking point between your point of view and mine is the distinction between Paul's mission of going to the Gentiles with the gospel of grace without any works result in salvation, and Peter's mission of going to the little flock/i.e. the house of Israel which to my understanding is faith plus works i.e. baptisms are a requirement to acquire salvation, if I'm understanding you. I believe this is a sticking point. I will say that in my heart I don't believe it's a wrong to be baptized that would be ridiculous. Myself have been baptized many many years ago, and the father son and the Holy Ghost and then a few years after that in the name of Jesus Christ so I'm not opposed to people getting baptized I am opposed when it's taught that someone must be baptized in order to be saved I believe that to be an error.
Blessings
I too believe in the various dispensations as seen in the Bible (though probably not considered a die-hard dispensationalist), but when it comes to the era of Grace (in the NT) and some argue 'wasn't Grace also shown by God in the OT?', I understand the Grace seen in the NT was apart from the Law, whereas God was still gracious to those under the Law in the OT. And the Grace we receive today, is not only apart from the Law given to Israel, but can never be complemented by any works we could do to make it more efficacious. Romans 11:5,6. Thanks again brother for your time given to this subject; I've found it very provoking and productive. Every blessing.
I do not understand how the church after 2000 odd years is still by many in such disarray on this and other matters .
When the Lord Himself promised that when the Spirit of Truth shall come ,He will lead us into all truth "
Has not the Holy Spirit come?
And if Paul by the same Holy Spirit declared that all true Apostles (etc) of God are called to perfect the church till we all come to a unity of the faith etc how is it the church thinks otherwise? For if faith in God comes by understanding the Word of God then to have a "unity of the faith ' there must be a unity of understanding! Not if our own understanding but leaning upon Him " who knoweth the things of God . To be of the same mind .etc the same judgement .
For if the Holy Spirit was needed to inspire what was written so He is also needed and in the same measure to understand what was so written .
The world does not need mens opinions for there are many men but even in this it wouod be absurd to assert every opinion is of equal merit . But the world needs the truth! For it does not have it and is in darkness . Light overcomes darkness , and one persons 'truth' does not overcome another's .
The Church is the " light of the world even as "the moon rules the darkness " If the church does not know the truth is it not also in darkness? But having reduced the gospel to but being BORN again we seemed to be very little further on .
For baptism is but the " milk of the Word" yet the church is still debating it rather than " going on to perfection"
For The Bride of Christ it will not be so ,the church needs to repent of its unbelief and waywardness for the Lord is on His way so to speak and if these things are not (truly) settled in our minds we will miss the boat .
We can presently see the same thing, whether some come in to pervert Christ's pure Gospel, or bring in another teaching contrary to the Word, and by their exuberance and smooth speech lead babes in Christ astray. Cults and sects are formed because of this, where all among them are taught to have the same understanding, but unfortunately they are based on erroneous exegesis and likely with visions and dreams to give support to their word. Yet, there are still believers who hold to the Truth, aligning to the Word & the Spirit's ministry in them and amongst them, and we need to be alert to this, bold to call out those bringing in another Gospel or Word, & separate from them.
However, our discussions (debates?) here are useful, not for "laying again the doctrines of baptisms", but to give opportunity to consider other beliefs & the reasons for them. To most, this would be unnecessary & a waste of time, but to those who love to study the Word & understand what others take in from it, it can sometimes be very enlightening, intriguing, sometimes worrying. I find it much more worthwhile to discuss the Word at this level with like-minded folk rather than the small talk of family, the weather, & vacations that goes on in after Fellowship meetings.
Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Proverbs 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof
Matthew 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
Proverbs 1:7 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."
Matthew 24:35 "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."
Unfortunately, some believers do make water baptism necessary for salvation (and this would certainly be works added to faith). Whereas, if baptism was done correctly, as per NT teaching & practise, then the Church today would not be in a questionable position. I always observe in the NT, that believing & baptism went hand-in-hand: if you believed and confessed Jesus, you were taken to the water for baptism there and then. We can even take the case of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch ( Acts 8:26-39) for an immediate baptism, for both should go together & not our lazy way today of baptising believers weeks, months & years after the event. Or, even as we often hear from the pulpit: 'there will be a baptism service in three weeks, so any considering this important step, please see me after today's service'. This to me is a great digression from what the Lord commanded & was practised in those early days.
So, I could never see baptism or even works following faith, as anything other than what is expected to be done as a result of turning to Christ & reception of the Holy Spirit. Again to state, this is exactly the same Gospel preached & practised by both Peter and Paul, and no doubt by the other apostles as they ventured into farther lands. GBU.
4. No Knowledge of the Mystery Program Yet
Peter and the 11 did not yet know the mystery of the Body of Christ, which was revealed later to Paul ( Eph. 3:1-9). They were not ministering to Gentiles broadly, nor were they preaching salvation by grace through faith apart from works. Their gospel was faith plus works ( James 2:24) and included water baptism as part of obedience.
Summary:
Peter and the 11 baptized because they were ministering to Israel under the kingdom program.
Baptism was a sign of repentance and preparation for entrance into the earthly kingdom promised in prophecy.
This was before the dispensation of grace was revealed to Paul, and it reflects a different administration (dispensation) in God's plan.
One can't merge the earthly kingdom promised in prophecy with the mystery that had not yet been revealed in the Gospels and early Acts.
I believe this is the KEY.
God Bless...
Thanks for sharing!
I agree there is a difference between the Gospel of the kingdom and the Gospel of Christ and it has to be rightly divided to get a good revelation of the word of God!
That's important!
However I don't agree that Peter and the others wasn't preaching salvation by grace through faith apart from works and that their gospel was faith plus works.
I believe that is what the counsel in Jerusalem was all about in Acts 15.
Peter speaks on this in Acts 15:7-11 and particularly in verses 9-11.
9) "AND PUT NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US AND THEM, PURIFYING THEIR HEARTS BY FAITH.
10 )NOW THEREFORE WHY TEMPT YE GOD, TO PUT A YOKE UPON THE NECK OF THE DISCIPLES, WHICH NEITHER OUR FATHERS NOR WE WERE ABLE TO BEAR?
11) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
I like the way it's put in verse 11. (We shall be saved, even as they.)
You would think it's the other way around! (They shall be saved even as we)
I believe this speaks of the future restoration of the house of Israel.
However the salvation message is the same! (PURIFYING THEIR HEARTS BY FAITH apart from the works of the law.)
We know this counsel is concerning the salvation message to the Gentiles by what's stated in Acts 15:1.
I believe there's a glimpse of the kingdom mentioned also by James. ( Acts 15:13-17. )
God bless you and thanks for sharing!
I just wish to speak to this concept:
Did the apostles receive the truth of the gospel from the risen Lord as did Paul?
I say yes because the apostles were taught by the risen Lord in the 50 days between His resurrection and ascension, such as on the road to Emmaus. Luke 24:13-17; 44-47, which is what Paul preached in 1 Cor. 15:3-4 and in His work recorded in acts Paul preached repentance and faith: ( Acts 17:30-31; 20:18-21; 26:19-20; Rom. 1:32-2:1-6 (this is concerning the Gentiles in ch.1:18-30); 2 Cor. 7:8-11; 12:20-21)
Paul was taught by the risen Jesus also when he retreated into the wilderness after His conversion, just as the apostles were taught by the risen Lord.
I contend that there was only one gospel that was preached by both the apostles and Paul, for Paul said that the glory of Christ is NOT to be divided among his servants and people in 1 Cor. 1:10-13. Here Paul is encouraging that all speak the same as to the gospel and of Christ Jesus and not divine the body with appealing to Paul, or Cephas, or Apollo as the one they follow.
In Matthew 112:25 Jesus preaches the truth that every 'kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand."
Paul in Cor. 13 is warning the Corinthian brethren to not cause divisions in the body of Christ.
It is Christ's will that His people stay in harmony and unity of doctrine and fellowship, all believing the one true gospel. Those who contend that Paul preached a gospel that differed from the apostles is such a doctrine that is divisive.
Lbooth, You have spoken at length criticizing believers, accusing them of bringing a bias to their interpretation of the Scripture, yet you are doing the very thing you criticize others for doing. Your teaching about two gospels comes from you being instructed in premillennial dispensationalism, which colors your view of the meaning of Scriptures.
We all come to the Scriptures with some preconceptions
John 10:7 "Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep."
John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"
Isaiah 40:8 "The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever."
Blessings
According to dispensationalism, especially Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, Peter and the 11 apostles baptized because they were operating under the prophetic kingdom program meant for the nation of Israel. Water baptism was an essential component of their ministry during the dispensation of law and the offer of the kingdom.
Here's why Peter and the 11 baptized:
1. They Were Continuing Jesus' Earthly Ministry to Israel
Peter and the other apostles were commissioned to preach the gospel of the kingdom ( Matthew 10:5-7; Matthew 28:19). Water baptism was part of that message, following the pattern of John the Baptist and Jesus Himself.
Mark 1:4 - John preached "the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins."
Matthew 28:19 - Jesus commanded them to "go... baptizing them..."
They were sent specifically to Israel (see Matthew 10:5-6 and Galatians 2:7-9).
2. Baptism Was a Sign of Repentance and Covenant Cleansing
For Israel, water baptism symbolized repentance, cleansing, and identification with the coming kingdom and Messiah. It was a requirement for entering the prophesied kingdom on earth.
Acts 2:38 - Peter said, "Repent and be baptized every one of you... for the remission of sins."
This was in direct response to Israel's rejection and crucifixion of Jesus.
3. They Were Operating Under the Law and Prophecy
Peter and the 11 were still under the Old Covenant framework, even after Jesus' resurrection. Their ministry was not based on the mystery revealed to Paul but on fulfilling what was already foretold in the Scriptures ( Acts 3:19-21).
The kingdom had been promised to Israel and was still being offered ( Acts 1:6; Acts 3:25-26).
Water baptism was a required sign of repentance and national obedience, there is no evidence of it being required for the body of Christ.
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EVERY " Ism " bedevilling the church today ( literally) are all wrong .
Each taking one doctrine and thinking they can understand all scripture by it whatever that 'ism' is .Any true doctrine of God are like the bones in the body each has its place and function and gives the body strength and uprightness .
Trying to fit a doctrine in the wrong place simply will not work .
But if any try to do so or make all scripture fit that particular ism sooner or later you will have to " twist the scriptures" to try and make them fit to your own destruction .
People get polarised into their opposing "isms" and fight to the death for their position not realising they have been slowly swept from the truth like swimmers in the sea in a changing tide .
You cannot deny the dispensations of God but neither are they the be all and end all of "all truth ".
You cannot deny those doctrines that are of God but you shouid not tnink they are the key to understanding "all scripture"
Peter had to learn that lesson . For when he got the understanding " Thou art the Christ the Son of the living God";He was perfectly right and the Lord confirmed it . But when the Lord began to give more light as to His coming rejection suffering and death ,Peter could not 'see' how that fitted with what he knew to be the truth and started to instruct the Lord . He was rebuked as the mouthpiece of Satan . ( not infallible then)
Every denomination from Luther onwards has in some measure done the same .
Rome has not only held fast to her heretical errors but has since the reformation added to them and now counts herself infallible .
The Protestant church has with all its 'versions ' and " better understanding"is simply filled with a lot of opinions and debates things long ago tried tested and proved right or wrong and which Paul said was but the " milk of the Word"
Time is running out and the Lord is as it on His way and we need to " go on to perfection".
Do you agree that we are in the dispensation of Grace at this present time?
Blessing!
In that regard be we Jew or gentile we are or were in bondage in Egypt and subject to Pharaoh and born in sin and shapen in iniquity ".
I don't see any difference at all in their messages.
Paul's letter to the Hebrews is different and uses a different 'argument' to them than from the Romans . The Jews needed to be convinced that Jesus fulfilled the word of the Prophets and of another priesthood etc .
The Romans needed to understand ( as also the Jews that all were " sold I E to sin etc .
The answer to both was The Lord and his all sufficient sacrifice .
Romans showed us two different laws and how one replaced the other . The law of sin and death and the law of Christ . Hebrews shows also by an argument how the old priesthood was to be replaced by an ever lasting one and was long taught it in the scriptures . Thus to the Jews he sought to remove the stumbling block to the gentiles proved the reasoning of God was not as foolish as supposed .
Are we not therefore translated from the 'culture' of this world so to speak to the culture of heaven? And every true church if God in some measure an embassy of heaven or kingdom of God and every true born child of God an ambassador of the King of that kingdom ?
Thanks again Gerald for what you have shared. Maybe, you misunderstood my reference to a person's cultural background. True, on its own, it could be considered a worldly, or non-spiritual aspect of a person's life & experience. But when it comes down to ministering the Gospel to that sinner, we must be aware (or at least, attempt to learn) of what their background is, the way they think, analyse, or comprehend words, any pre-conceived ideas/beliefs, family or religious leader pressures, and so on.
If you have been involved in any Christian mission work or listened to a missionary return home to share about his work, then you might have heard of the term, 'cross-cultural evangelism'. So, when a believer, being called and led of the Lord to serve 'across cultures', would do very well to learn all they can about their 'target' group. Certainly, not everything can be known, such as things confined to those who grow up in that family or group; but to minister effectively, not only should the pure Gospel be given, but given in a manner that would be meaningful to the listener's world.
You gave the example of Paul's letter to the Roman Church and the letter to the Hebrews, (commonly believed to be to the Jewish converts in Italy); and the differences in the content of these letters. But what if Paul spoke to those who were non-Jews, such as we see in Acts 17:16-34. We're not given much information about what Paul knew about these Athenians, except they were superstitious, idolaters, and Paul knew a little about one of their poets. There was probably much more that Paul knew about them and felt confident that he could share the Gospel in a way that they could receive & understand. As a result, some began to believe on the Lord (v34). Onto Page 2.