Bible Discussion Thread Page 2

Dear Gerald,

In conclusion.

You are right that we are to rule our lives by God's standards as revealed in Scripture as He calls to Himself every true elect person to Christ Jesus to be in Him and placed in His eternal Kingdom by faith. We cannot put our trust in governments no matter how free one is within a certain country. We need to guard our freedoms, of course, so that the cause of Christ and His Gospel can be expanded through His people by His Holy Spirit.

And, we who are such elect, are to adhere to the faith once and for all delivered to us by the apostles, to stand up for it in season or not. I pray that we all will be strengthened to bear what we need to face on account of our faith and living it faithfully privately, amongst the brethren, within our families, and out in the public arena. Let us be light to those who are in darkness of unbelief. Let us not shrink from trials or seek to play it safe when there is much at stake if we fail to stay true to our calling in Jesus Christ.

Nearly every nation first started out as families then tribes each with its own chief or king then one king ruling over them all till finally there was one king over one country . The USA a little different bough it too had tribes and internal warfare . But it's revolution with Britain was in fact the birth of a nation and at any birth there is blood shed . It's roots thus being in Great Brtains liberties. The history of Scotland goes as far back and has much the same history as other peoples . English kings reasons I don't know yet insisted that Scottish kings be in submission to them . They said No. not even the Romans were able to conquer Scotland . When England was strong England subdued them but when weak they rose up and invaded England .but neither couid conquer the other . Geographically they have always been one . But the enemies of England used the animosity to wage war on England . But when England got hold of the Bible in English and by the grace of zGod was converted to Christ she that was always geographically separated from Europe now became spiritually separated also . Then Scotland also go the Bible and preachers like Knox delivered Scotland under God from the superstitious none sense of Rome and became spiritually united with England . Then God in his goid providence without war and by the natural law of inheritance United the kingdoms under James king of Scotland who became Kingnif England . " Let no man separate what God has joined' it is repitrted he said .

Thus we became the United Kingdom of Great Britain .and prospered accordingly . Why some Scots wish to leave this true Union for one that is in name only one can only put down to the fact that thec' Jacobites' are alive and kicking once again .

The Stuarts only lost the throne when they insisted on trying to reverse what God had wrought and return to the European model of rulers . Charles 1st using " the divine right of kings " as his justification . The man shouid have read his Bible

Hello Gerald,

Thanks for this helpful information. And yes, you are correct that in some ways we differ in perspective on some history, but we can read historical accounts to gain understanding of the factors that led to the historical changes God used through time to advance His kingdom, Church, and witness.

I understand that you are UK citizen. I am a U.S. citizen. We have a lot of commonality in our historical past, as many who colonized the New World were from Great Britain. But the U.S. as it grew westward was influenced people from many other nations (mostly European in the early centuries).

I do firmly believe that God is control of all history and works it out according to His plan and purpose decided from before creation as He knew all of what would come about because He decided what would come about in order to bring His purpose to fruition to His ongoing plan throughout history.

Through all the ways, bloodshed, high and low points in history, God promised in Romans 8:28 that ALL things are worked to the end of our good to those who love God and are called by Him according to His eternal purpose of election and blessing to those He determined to redeem through all time. We can rest with confidence that no matter how things work out in history, God does work within history to bring about good to His people.

Every kingdom and empire has a foundation built on bloodshed ,treachery , murder and war .

The world is littered with the ruins and carcasses of who knows how many ' world orders' .

They have all fallen . I include Great Britain in this list but if this country turned out different it was only by the grace of God . But if it insists on raising its fist to God and saying " No God" it will go the way of all that has gone before it.

But I do not believe God has finished with us yet as a nation . Isiah 5 has it " if it had not been for a very small remnant we would be as Sodom":That would make these islands barren rock and London a wasteland .

I also believe the Word of God that states " When the enemy comes in like a flood the Lord will raise a standard against him"

That standard must be set up high on a hill and without the camp .

God always uses the few to bless the many and Thst body will be counted a little thing and of no account . Nothing .in theceyes of the world and in many a carnal mind .

But God brings to nought the things that are by the things that are not" and the perceived weak and foolish things to confound the strong and the mighty "

They will be as a light shining in the darkness not that they are that light but bare witness of the light. Even as the moon when it is still shining bares witness even in the darkest night that not only is the sun still shining ,but that there is coming a perfect day

Bad news for all who love darkness more than the light . Good news for any and all who want something radically different than what this world is offering them .

"Work together for good " Not ' our' good.

Though it will ,I don't think that is the primary objective .

The primary objective is the Will of God to be done on earth as it is in heaven and that His kingdom come .

The greater includes the lesser the lesser does not include the greater .

Gerald Pg. 2

England and Scotland fought for centuries over whom would rule overall even thought the kings intermarried with one another beginning with William I's son Henry I marrying Matilda of Scotland, (who was actually descended from the royal house of Wessex (Anglo-Saxon) as well as the King of Scotland. In 1603 under James I/VI the Union of the Crowns occurred uniting Scotland to the English crown. Under this Stuart dynasty, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, and England were all united under the English crown for the first time. But also under the Stuarts this newly formed unified England was plunged into a civil war, the result of which being that the English crown cannot rule without the consent of the Parliament. (King Charles I had disbanded Parliament, Oliver Cromwell led the Parliamentarians to victory).

So, in 1688, England (to become the United Kingdom) now operated under a constitutional monarchy. It was in 1707 when England and Scotland gave up their monarchy to become Great Britain under the Acts of Union. During the time of the 1500's-1600's many migrated to the New World seeking not only religious freedom as non-conformists (Pilgrims/Puritans) but also to escape the upheaval in the homeland that was torn apart by strife, overcrowding, plague, dismantling of feudalism, lack of employment, the rise of a non-gentry class, and gentry who were not first born sons to inherit land and estates in England.

There were many factors that led to the migration to the New World. And we can know that God had His hand in bringing into the New World at the opportune time those who worked to form the continental Congress, the Constitution and the Republic that was formed from the American Revolution.

Through the ups and downs of the relations between Great Britain and the U.S., these two nations have become strong allies through 2 World Wars and other political events that brought about this strong bond.

Gerald, is there anything else you wish to discuss about this?

Nice summary.

This is an excellent and beautifully clear summary! You have perfectly captured the core of the Christian message. But I prefer longer texts to understand better, so there's no doubt about what the author is writing.Wonderful job! This is a fantastic and accurate explanation.

Continued : King Charles ( second also) shouid have read his Bible for it wouid have taught him that God can justly judge a king and give it to another . Even as He can judge a nation and give their land to others . Or chastise them and temporarily give their land to others .

If God be for you who can be against you " but if God be against you what hope have you?

He lost the argument ,he lost the war he lost his throne and in the end he lost his head .

By that civil war the foundations of our political liberty laid when King John signed Magna Carta we're established after the civil war and we got a Constitutional Monarchy . Europes kings trying to keep their absolutism in the end lost them all .

If Ming Charles is a symbol of anything it is to the fact that thectruth is not a tyrant but nor is it democratic but it does have its own imperative . His Majesty is also the foreshadow of Him who is to come and that The Truth must sit on the throne and not another .

Our approaches to history are somewhat different . While not rejecting dates and persons depending on one's starting point we may come to different conclusions .

The foundations of our liberties in Law religion and politics are primarily fiunded upin biblical principles . We are losing them primarily because this nation wants the liberty but is not willing to honour the principles upon which they rest let alone God who gave them . " They that honour me I will honour"

And instead now clsim those liberties are ours by right .an assertion that is denied by history as much as it is denied by the falken nature of man .

There is not a kingdom on earth in history as now that was not founded upon Murder treachery bloodshed and war . If thecUK turned out any different it was only by the grace of God . All kingdoms then are built on sand . This includes Rome .

But the kingdom of God is founded upin better things and will last forever and rightly so.

Hello Gerald,,

What Harold are you speaking of who was king of England?

After the Anglo-Saxons, Jutes and Danes invaded the isle of Britain, the Isle was ruled by a number of petty kingdoms, each with separate kings.

In 886 Alfred the Great declared himself "king over all the Anglo-Saxons in Britain after taking back areas from the Danish Vikings. The Isle was divided up into kingdoms ruled by descendents of Alfred the Great. during the 900's the kingdoms were united under Edward the Elder and then Aethlstan to form the Kingdom of the English. In 927 Aethlstan finally defeated the last remaining Danish Viking kingdom of York (Known as Danelaw). This was the first time all of England (not Scotland or Wales) was united under one Anglo-Saxon monarch. In 1016, Cnut the Great of Denmark took the monarchy and merged England with Denmark and Norway as a kingdom.

Before the Norman conquest of 1066, William the Conqueror took control of all of Britain (except for Wales) and merged all the former kingdoms into one, with him as the sole king. The other kings were deposed, killed, or submitted to King William I, relinquishing their role as a monarch. All of the land in England was confiscated by William I and designated as belonging to the crown (monarchy). William I then redistributed the lands among his Norman brethren who assisted him in the Conquest who became lords of the new fiefs and were designated as Earls, Barons, who were given charge of their land designation but not ownership. Each lord needed to supply a set # of knights for the king's service and pay taxes to support the monarchy. The serfs did not have many rights at that time.

In 1284 King Edward I took control of Wales in the conquest of Wales, placing Wales under the English crown.

The Baron's War brought about the Magna Carta, which King John was forced to sign. It established rights to the feudal lords that the crown would uphold. The U.S. Bill of Rights was influenced by the Magna Carta.

See pg.2

Gerald

I was speaking of church history from the 1st century on. Neither you nor I or anyone in recent centuries truly know how God was working within His Church to build it upon Jesus and His truth. But instead of speaking of this history in negative remarks not based on actual knowledge of what really occurred, we should all have an attitude of trust in Jesus and His words that say HE will build HIS Church and it will prevail until He returns. I can trust God in this, even knowing that there have been many controversies, heresies, and false sects that have cropped up during Jesus' Churches history. Yet, the Holy Spirit is not given only to individual believers, but to the Church through the ages, as it was given to the gathered Church at Pentecost.

I believe that Jesus always speaks the truth, therefore I can know that He is has been and still is building His Church based on the truths revealed to the apostles in the first century. After the apostles were martyred with John being the only one to survive attempts at being killed and die of old age, the leaders of the churches planted by the apostles and disciples that had first had experience with Jesus, as was the case at Pentecost, studied, preached, and guarded the teachings of the apostles with seriousness and desired to correctly spread the truth of the faith passed down by the saints. I think that it is really important for us to lean towards such a belief and not unduly criticize these men God had selected to lead in His Church following the apostles.

They needed to know the Scriptures as well as teach from them to their congregants because the Scriptures were not available to the common people, most of whom could not read. As for me, I can trust that the Holy Spirit was within the Churches established by the apostles and disciples of Jesus despite the rise of erroneous and also heretical ideas that some adopted and promoted.

See Pt. 2

Gerald,

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I said that it is virtuous to love the brethren, meaning we should strive to do so, even though we are in this life do so imperfectly. This is why we need Jesus and His righteousness in every way every day and the sanctifying work of the Spirit continually working in us to conform us to Christ. This is biblically correct.

" For I have something against you " is said practically to every church in Revelation .

And " Behold I stand at the door and knock ,if any man has ears to hear and opens the door to him will I .?."

When Peter got the revelation or perception thatv" Jesus was the Christ the Son of the living God" the Lord Himself confirmed that this was not of his own opinion but was from heaven .

Wonderful . But he made the mistake of thinking that his Hod given perception was the " whole council of God" and when the Lord began to give more light as to His coming rejection suffering and death at the hands of the pharasses it did not ' fit" with his God given understanding and so began to to say " Nay Lord " the Lord severely rebuked him for having been with one breath the mouthpiece of heaven he had become inadvertently the mouthpiece of Satan and the Lord rebuked him for doing so. Not many would stick with the message after that .But it does show the growing character of the man .

Each revelation given to the church from Luther onwards once established has in turn began to be thought of as the whole and God has had to go outside of each denomination to progress HIS purposes . The Roman church which boasts in much who has made Peter its cornerstone did not learn his lesson . And seeking to save its life has lost it compromising more and more with the world and turning from God has turned to idolatry and "the doctrines of devils ".

The knocking on the church door for there is but one church with one doior is a call to the whole church wether a person thinks thrur church is the only church or part of it . Everyone INsude is thus calked to repent .

The promise however is made only to those however "who have ears to hear and open the door ". Even as John 3:16 is a call to the whole world to repent and that promise is only to those who do and believe.

God is Holy . I think we have forgotten just how Holy God is .

Hello GiGi

I also believe that what is needed to be revealed by God to us has already been revealed since the very begginning. There is nothing more to be revealed. So now it is a matter of interpretation by us.

But there is one thing left. And this is the events in Revelation. I believe that they are written in such a way that as we come closer to that time things become more and more clear. We combine the events of our lives with what is written and interprete accordingly. That is why I personally do not read it very often. One can not really know what those symbolisms mean. We are just guessing. Sometimes we get it right, but sometimes we end up miles away.

Have a blessed week.

Yet Paul prayed for the Ephesians that " the eyes of thrur understanding may be opened that they might comprehend with all the saints what is the exceeding greatness of His power that's towards us who believe even the same mighty piwer thatvraised Christ Jesus from the dead " Now admitted I'm seeing it from our end of things but it wouid seem to me that io raise somebody from the dead needs a lot of power . Not that aI think God as it were broke into a sweat doing it .

But even Paul wanted to know " the power of His resurrection" well if Paul thought there was more than what he knew how much the more we?

But how can you know the power of a resurrection unless your dead? What did he say ? " That I might be made conformable to His death" If Paul thought there was more how much the more we?

I wouid suggest w though ALL the scriptures are laid out before us as in a great feast we have started on the first course.

And no little of " I am crucified with Christ " and while" "we are buried with Christ in baptism " we know little of that as well .

If then a little of that then the same knowing " the power of His resurrection"? Is by the same meadure .

For even with a little imagination to raise the dead speaks of a Power we you and I and the church save here and there and in a little of but by Paul need to know it's fullness and that continually "towards us ".

If someone says we do , I would say in the main we don't .

Yes we have been BORN again and sealed by Him " another comforter " but may I suggest that according to scripture He is outside 'knocking and "if any man has ears to hear and opens the door to them will .."

To be crucified with Christ ,nevertheless I live but not I but Christ liveth in me" is not just for the very few ' Paul's ' of this world .it is or should be the christian norm .

Hi Gerald

Thanks for your comment brother. When I say that everything has been revealed since ancient times I mean the doctrines of christianity, not pesonal revelations. The latter occur when God takes the veil off a scripture and so one understands it better. Definitely we can not fully know God. Paul says that as long as we live in these bodies we get to know Him partly. Up there in Heaven we will get to know Him fully(?). So yes this is right as far as personal revelation is considered.

But when we talk about doctrines of faith the whole situation changes. Because if we assume that today we know some things more than the ancient church this can lead a strange situation. Was the ancient church inferior than modern churches? I wouldn't think so. Protestantism suffered and is still suffering a lot due to that "progressive revelation". So one leaves their congregation because they think that God has revealed them something the others do not know, so they go and establish a new church and so on. And at the end there are tenths of colours and smells. So you see there is a huge problem here and a danger. All claim that are led by the Spirit but the Spirit leads to different destinations? Everybody claim that their doctrines are based on the scriptures but the scriptures lead to different doctrines? And why would God reveal to us something that He had not revealed to the ancient church? Wasn't the ancient church that suffered persecutions, the lions and the flames? Do we think that we are superior than them? God could easily recommend a specific church if He wanted to. But He doesn't do it. Why? .......?. Maybe it is not so essential for God. Maybe God sees the big picture. the salvation of souls not careing much about differences in "minor" things? But again what could be considered as a minor thing? Is there a red line in doctrines that if one crosses it then they can not be saved? Or there isn't such a line? And if there is at what point is it? Many questions.

GBU

Hello , while God is quite capable of preserving His own Word that does not mean Satan still does not have his own 'versions' .Of it . He simply added ' N O T' to it with Eve and in doing so changed the truth " ye shall surely die" into a lie " ye shall not surely die" When someone rejects the truth they will belueve the lie and when the lie is believed they become blind to the truth .

Thus it is written " She SAW that the tree was good to eat" Gods perception was that was evil to eat .

And she reasoned thus " It would make her wise. " Gods reason was that it wouid bring them death .

Since that hour man's perception and reasoning of God and His Word has been false .

But when God called them both out of their darkness ( hiding place) and into His presence and true light He from who's eyes nothing is hid saw that what was they thought coveted their nakedness did not and in His great mercy and Love gave them a covering that did but a promise also that would restore them into a right relationship with Him .

Abel by faith followed Gods pattern . Cain refused to do so .

To be truly BORN again God "restores sight to the blind" but after that our minds and reasoning has to be renewed " till we all come" to the same understanding and judgement .

The strange thing is that so many think that they can use their carnal minds to understand the scriptures. Meaning a purely intellectual approach to the study of the scriptures with the false hope that if they learn greek or Hebrew that is then possible . Saul of Tarsus knew them both and who's knowledge of the scriptures was vast but did he understand them? NO! Not untill he was converted but then spent three years in Arabia getting his head knowledge sorted out and put in order with the help of the Lord . The Pharisees had Hebrew as their mother tongue but did they understand what was written? NO!

The Holy Spirit was needed to inspire men to write! He is needed in the same measure to understand what is written.

Agree Giannis,

History will reveal what Revelation has said would happen. We need not be too worried but instead lean on Christ and walk in step with the Holy Spirit. This is enduring to the end.

True Prophecy is history written in advance .

Amen.

James 1:26

If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

Matthew 12:36

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."

Blessings

Azzan,

Of course these two Scriptures are very true. Therefore, I sincerely do attempt to speak in my postings in a way that brings glory to God and hope to add to the understanding of others. I so read what others post and desire to gain understanding as to the points they are desiring to make. This is important to me to do so. Sometimes I agree with others and other times not. I don't think any of us possess completely accurate understandings of Scriptures and having dialogues are helpful for all involved.

Let me add that I do appreciate that you continue to post Scripture. It is important for all of us to read, hear, speak, and write out what Scripture says. It helps us hide it in our hearts for the Spirit to use to train us up in faith, doctrine, and knowledge of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

I do wish that you may consider making some comments when you post Scriptures so those who read your post can get a better understanding of why you chose the particular verses you post. This helps us to get to know one another and to develop good relationships with one another which are valuable.

Be blessed tonight and always. We have an awesome, amazing, great God who chose us in Him first before we ever considered choosing Him. Thankfully!