Bible Discussion Thread

2 Timothy 3:16 states:

All scripture is given by the inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction for instruction in righteousness:

So why are some scriptures being overlooked or underlooked? Rev 1:14, Daniel 10:6, Songs 1:5, etc... What do they mean?

There are many reasons . Denominations have their favourite texts and fail to consider thec" whole council of God"

The Bible is a vast book . The real question is why we think little of it or study?

There are waters up to the ankles so that even a child can ' paddle' in it . Waters up,to the loins".

When young men first go in up to their waste if they are honest they will recognise they fear it for they begin to understand thecpiwerbof the sea much greater than them that it could destroy them. But tomtheir joy find out it supports them and therevis waters to swim in.

But we often play in the sea having a goid time enjoying ourselves but do not consider that we are still but swimming in the shallows and there is a whole sea out there.

Now a few might be able to swim the zEnglish channel but no one is going to swim the pacific i or the Atlantic but what do the scriptures continue to say ? " But I could go no further " and the angel led me to a river which on its banks were trees whos leaves were for the healing of the nations "

The church does not know God as much as it thinks it does . Yes it might as " little children " but far fewer as " young men" ( 1John . Even fewer I think as " Ye fathers you know Him who is from the beginning "

The Bible is primarily a revelation of God and something of the bights depths and breadths of His person .

But we are I think too often trying to establish our own righteousness or making a " name for ourselves" or fighting to the death our "position":of our denomination rather than getting to know Him who so inspired men to write what was written .

"They that know their God shall be strong and do exploits" Not those who know the minute of scripture but little of Him of who the scriptures speak of .

Dear Gerald,

Your disdain for the Church of Jesus through the ages is out of line with the Spirit of Truth.

There have been tons of godly men over the centuries within the Church that have been given insight into the depths of God's word written in Scriptures.

It is interesting that people today think that such knowing is particular to those of today and especially those who are outside of a denomination, as you seem to say.

But the truth is, God has given gifts to the Church, both those within denominations and without: teachers, pastors, evangelists, etc. This has continued through the centuries, but the apostles were only those who were actually first-hand eye-witnesses to Jesus in His earthly life. The writers of the Scriptures were within the Church Jesus built from the time of the start of His earthly ministry until now. I do not defend any specific denomination, nor condemn to concept.

Every Christian assembly has the responsibility to correctly handle the word of God and preach it forth to the hearers of their congregations. But since the Holy Spirit was given the work of teaching God's truth within the Church through the ages, we should be charitable towards other believers and be able to have a mind-set to learn from others God has gifted by the Spirit of grace.

'While every Christian assembly has the responsibility .' Many and perhaps now a majority think that any 'version' is equal with every other version and despise or politely turn thrur back on that version tried tested and proved .

To the extent it can be said " all we like sheep have gone astray each going his own way".

We're every 'opinion' has equal weight but the Holy Spirit is left outside .

The new Roman leader will be very popular for while advocating reform will deceive many for nothing has changed but rather has become more subtle . How will he deceive so many? Because while many have the scriptures too many are versions of them but above all an over reliance on the intellect and of man's own understanding than on the holy Spirit . Though it will be denied .

"The Spirit of truth will lead its into all truth "

It is written of a time that things will be of such a deceitful nature " that if it was possible even the very elect would be deceived ".Well we are living in those times ;in part at least but it's going to get worse .

There is the body of truth . The scriptures .and there is the Spirit of truth . The one will not contradict the other . Nor the other contradict the one .

"The letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life " if a man cannot be heard or understood unless he gives his breath or life to his words how much the more then of Gods Word? For if the Holy Spirit was needed to inspire men so to write in the same measure Hevis needed to understand what is written . For what knoweth the tnings of man save the spirit that is in man ? So likewisev what knoweth the things of Gid save the Spirit of God who knoweth the mind of God.."

But thanks be unto God what is impossible with man is possible with God and we can "go boldly into the presence of God and find grace and mercy in time of need "

We can do more than we think we can .

You could not be further from the truth as to my attitude towards the church of which I am a part .The denominations canecabout simply because the 'established' church of the time starting with Luther refused to continue in the orogresive purposes of God and God had to find someone who would " suffer without the camp" to progress the building of HIS church .

It has always been thus .

Out of Noah's generation God chose Noah . Out of Noah's generation God chose Abraham .

Out of His generation came Jesus Christ .

When God told Noah to go out into all the world etc they went as far as a place they thought they could stop and build a tower and make a name for themsekves " when Peter got the revelation that Jesus was the Christ the Son of the living God . The Lord confirmed it was of heaven . But Peter thought he had all the light and when the Lord began to give more light ascto His coming rejection and suffering!Peter could not resolve what he knew with what Jesus said and rejected it and tried to dissuade the Lord from itv. And git a sever rebuke fir doing so.

I thank Almighty God fir Luther and fir all his labours I've heard messages he preached on that showed how he grew in understanding beyond " the just shall live by faith " and have been even now greatly blessed by the message of John 17.

But at some point they went so cars nd no further and each succeeding denomination led by men of God have progressed the church . There won't be any more denominations and there are not any in heaven .

As for thinking because I am not in one that gives me some sort of righteousness . It doesn't . I was BORN again in sn evangelical church in NW London .but that is not my righteousness either though I am very thankful beyond words for that congregation for reasons I can't go into here .

It is not I who is saying " Behold I stand at the doir and knock.."

But it is for me to understand not only how that can be but also believe Him and "consider my ways ".

Dear Gerald,

I pray that you will be given a kinder disposition towards those who are members of various denominations instead of being so critical. God has called many of these people and set them into His kingdom through Christ, more that you will ever know at this time. It is arrogant to think that as time progresses that the church continues to make progress in understanding truth over what has been known in the past through the Church through the ages, through the Reformation, and through the myriad of divisions since then that result in thousands of denominations.

Having a sincere love for the brethren and a love for the Church, each of which continue in imperfection until Jesus comes to consummate all things, is really virtuous. I rarely hear you commend the Lord's work in building His Church from the time He first said this to His disciples, and if you do, it is reference to your own personal positive experience in a particular congregation in your own life. However, you have posted many times with strong criticisms of others in denominations other than what you are involved in.

Please be more charitable. It is fine to point out errors in doctrine (which the Bible uses for teaching) or practices, but to simply speak derogatorally about denominations or the Church as a whole in past times is really not helpful, nor is it edifying or corrective.

Gerald,

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I said that it is virtuous to love the brethren, meaning we should strive to do so, even though we are in this life do so imperfectly. This is why we need Jesus and His righteousness in every way every day and the sanctifying work of the Spirit continually working in us to conform us to Christ.

As for what you call our 'imperfection' thatbis not what the scriptures speak of .

It does say we are made perfect on the way to perfection .

A seed that has died and brings forth it first shoot and two leaves is in of and by itself 'perfect' . But it has not yet been perfected and in all its growth and development it is still perfect or complete ( for only zGod is true perfection) untill it reaches full maturity .The mind is a wonderful thing and the imagination also . But we are BORN again with a mind that is often at variance with the Word of God and we have to be renewed in our minds and progresively bring our thoughts and imaginations into conformity with what the Word says . Is that not what Paul meant by we must all " think the same thing" be if the same mind and judgement"?

Not of yours or mine but if His ":who knoweth the things of God".

GB

Gerald,

You are right in that in Christ we are clothed with His perfection, but 1 Cor. 15 Paul speaks of our need to be given immortality and incorruptibility in the resurrection. Paul in Romans 7 speaks of two laws being at work in us-the law of sin and death and the law of the Spirit. And Paul in Gal.5:17 Paul speaks of our the Spirit in us wars against the sinful flesh in us.

So, my post that speaks of having imperfection aligns with the truth of what Paul teaches.

Our mortal body is still subject to the law of sin and death and as such if we are ruled by it we shall obey it .

But what says the scriptures? " Let not sin reign in your mortal body " we must ( an imperative) let Christvreign in our mortal bodies and if we do " sin shall not have dominion over us"

"If we walk after the Spirit we shall not fulfil the lusts of the flesh"

Which is why there is no condemnation for those "who walk after the Spirit ."

Again I say we have reduced the gospel to being but BORN again and as such no longer preach the crucifixion of the flesh in Christ . The cross is the only place for the old man . The struggle I have had and many do is still trying to 'live' . When we shouid believe zGod word that says " we are crucified with Christ" nevertheless I live but not I but Christ lives ( and reigns) in me" for it is not the body that controls the spirit but the Spirit that must control the body.

That is not just for the ' Paul's ' of this world . Indeed all those 5 fold ministries zGod has given to the church is so that " we ALL may come to the unity of THE faith unto the perfect man etc .( Ephesians) too many sadly are building their ministries than perfecting the Bride .

Let me be clear .I do not and cannot deny the great work what of men of God in the past have done . Nor do I think we don't have any today . Would that we had a legion of them .

But if the church is the salt of the earth why is the earth rotting?

The world is in the church and the church is in the world and we have changed the worship of God into entertainment and rely on a good beat and vocal ,histrionics instead of the Spirit of God .

There are storms coming the like of which we have not seen for over 400 years and still many are too busy 'celebrating' rather than weeping while our brethren are facing the wrath of the enemy we say " we are rich increased with goods and in need of nothing" while the Holy Spirit is outside knocking .

"The wounds of a friend"?

Knowing a little of church history , you say it is arrogance to think that Christianity started with Luther . I did not say any such thing.

The church of the book of acts by leaving its first love opened the door to the Nicolayitons (?) which says thecSpurit of zGod " I hate" that then opened the door to Jezebel false prophets and false doctrines . That in turn led to the baalamitez .

Save for a " very small remnant" ( Isiah 5 I tnink ) the book of Acts was effectively buried under false Christian religion of formalism and a " form of Godliness but which denies the power of true Godliness " Having withstood the great persecutions of the Roman Empire she succumbed to its ' blessing' under Constantine . By the time of Luther they were debating how many angels could stand on a pin head and selling indulgences two a penny to build 'st peters' .

The revelation of " The just shall live by faith" was but the seed doing its natural function having found "good soil".

The church from them on has been a prodigal church having cime from a " far country" and has been progresively on its way to the Father .

To some extent it's still wearing its old cloths /rags but needs to put off the old man and out on Christ . But is trying to do so in its own strength and will .often quoted of Paul's struggles with the flesh willing but incapable of doing etc which is everybodies experience in some measure but not often you hesr " but thinks b3 to zGod who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ "Though many have experienced it in part .

But the scriptures speak of much more of "overcoming the wicked one ( 1 John) being " more than conquerors " what is more than a conqueror ?

Etc etc etc etc etc .

When we climb a great hill or walkable mountain at some point we stop and take a breather . Look back from whence we came and look afar for now we can see far more than we did when we started .and we also look up to see what still needs to be done

Gerald,

I never said you said what you said about Luther.

I was speaking to what I have often come across in other believers as an attitude like yours that sees the church being corrupt from early times but that the Reformation began to set things aright.

I do think that this is arrogant because none of us can really know what really occurred in believers during those early centuries including their leaders and the serious ways they addressed a great number of Scriptural topics that arose within the church.

It seems that perhaps your point is that in your opinion that the first centuries of the church were corrupted terribly after Acts.

You intimate that the Roman Church was intent on corrupting the faith from early on. I think that you may not know as much about actual church history as you think you do and again, you cannot truly know about ALL that the Lord did within His church through this history. He has always worked in the church made up of true believers even if some were not true believers. This is true now and was true through the Reformation, also. So, I think your judgmental attitude is out of line and arrogant.

I do think that the church of Jesus was confronted with many errors and heresy throughout its inception and many of these were strongly addressed and refuted. But, even so, as the Roman Catholic Church began in the 4th or 5th century it has incorporated heresies that are given support.

The Reformation was needed and brought about a lot of good.

My emphasis was that people today, such as you present yourself, seem to think that they know so much more truth than the church has known through the centuries. Kind of like "sliced bread was just invented in their own lifetime". I think that the church has far more people who knew more truth than you or anyone in our time ever will know in their lifetime.

I can say that I do not wish to pursue this discussion further because it is divisive of the HS work in history.

I have started back reading the Bible after many years away from it. I was baptized in 1987 when I was 10. I enjoy reading all of these informative threads. You all keep up the good work. I need all of the help that I can get. My belief has suffered for quite some time now. I'm simply not near good enough to go to heaven...

Hi.

Welcome to the site.

I would like to add to the Great comfort and words that the others gave you.

The Prodigal Son.

In Luke 15:3-32 we see the Lord give a in three phases in one parable with the last phase being the Prodigal Son.

The context of all three of these phases of this one Parable is Rejoicing over that was lost and now found!

We see the audience and reason for the parable in verses 1and 2

"Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.

And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them".

The lost sheep, the lost coin and the younger Son going into a far country, represent the son going into a far country,

The elder son in the field represents the Pharisees and their murmuring in verse 2.

The father didn't go looking for his younger son but he never stopped expecting his son to return.

It's the Holyspirit that gathers us and brings us back home!

The younger Son went out like the sheep and got lost but he never ceased from being a Son!!

He said "I will arise and go to my father!

He left the pig pen because he didn't belong there! He's not a pig, he's a Son!

In 2 Peter 2:22 we see a biblical proverb "But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire"

A pig returning back to her wallowing in the mire. "Because she was a pig!

The Son returned home because he was a Son and he never lost his identity.

And joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth,

We have a Great Shepherd that leaves the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it and he will never leave or forsake us!

We see the role of the Father the Son and the Holyspirit in this parable!

God bless you.

Thank you and God bless. I never thought that I would start having such doubt. As a kid, my faith seemed much stronger. I think that the stresses of life and the bad things going on in the world sometimes gets me down. I know that what we see as God "dragging his feet" as it relates to allowing all of the evil in the world to prevail is actually his mercy.

God bless!

You have made a good start . Keep on keeping on . "For you shall k kw when you follow on to know".

No one is fit fir heaven in of and by themselves . But first we must be reconciled to God .

It is written ( for our benefit) " That if we draw close to God ,God will draw close to us"

If God is omnipresent that is everywhere all at the same time now . How do we draw near to Him?

Let me give you an apology. Have you ever been in a serious disagreement with your father and he was right and you were wrong? If you have been fortunate not to ,I sure you will understand the principle . While father insists you honour the principle he is espousing and you are in rebellion against him though you are living in the same house you are to all intents and purposes a million miles apart . You don't want to speak to him nor be in the same room . But as soon as you " consider yir ways" and strait thinking along the right lines you are beginning to draw near to your father and if you continue sooner or later you will be reconciled to him. The account of the" prodigal son" is the classic case given for our encouragement .

Turning back to the Bible and thinking about what it says is a good start . The prodigal son was in " a far country" so it took a while but he got to his fathers embrace ." When we pray we must believe that God is and is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him"

Don't be satisfied till you are nor diverted by those who won't

Thank you and God bless you! I have been reading many of these threads and I especially enjoy your very informative ones. I have been struggling with my faith. I guess as preacher "Bruce" from the first Left Behind movie said: "Knowing and believing are two different things." I know the Bible well, but I can't put my finger on these recurring doubts.

I need prayers before I lose my way!

Dear fellow child of God,

Glad to meet you and I pray that you will find helpful words here on this forum. I have been helped by others again and again. This forum and the brethren have been a huge blessing to me.

Thank you so much and I appreciate your words of kindness. I'll admit that for so long now I let go of Jesus... but I'm glad that He didn't let go of me. God bless.

[Comment Removed]

Hello

In the parable of the prodigal son, the father saw his son returning home while his son was away. Did he happen to see him while he was far away? No, he was standing upstairs looking at the horizon hoping to see his son return. And he was doing this day after day. And time went by. And his father was still going up there looking at the horizon. And finally the time came. And when his son came to him, he couldn't keep his hands off his son. He was hugging and kissing him all the time. That's how our Father in Heaven longs to see us return home. The only thing his son had the chance to say was "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son." Nothing else. His father didn't want to hear anything else from his son. That was enough. Just tell God the Father that. The only thing He desires is our repentance. Nothing else. And the father says to the servants, "Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:." God will give you the place in His house that you were having before. He only wants repentance. Nothing else. Everything else like reading the Bible, praying, going to church come next. Repentance comes first. Nobody is good enough for Heaven. God will get us there. Just follow Him.

Giannis,

One thing among many that this parable reminds me of is that of the Father looking day after day for his son. He was expecting to see him. I think that this reflects that the Father trusted that God would bring his son back home to finish what He started in him.

I believe we should all have this expectation for any and all of our children who have gone away from the faith they once had, whether as children, teens, or adults. We should believe that God is faithful to those He has given faith and the Holy Spirit to knowing that God will keep that seed of faith alive until the time He draws that elect one back to Himself.

What do I know about " what really happened":in the garden of Eden ? By your reasoning ,zi can't .

But that is what the scriptures are for that we may indeed know the truth of it .

How do I ' realy know' what happened to the church in its history? The scriptures tell us in the first 3 chapters of revelation .

From " leaving its first love " to thinking " it has need of nothing " .

The Roman church I'm sure did not set out to become what it has. But it became what it did and what it is by not relenting even though God " gave it time to repent but would not " is that not what happened to Cain?

I do not nor cannot reject those true men of God who laboured faithfully and died doing so.

But eventually that church 'died' and was buried under the formality and ritualistic of Rimec.Save for a "very small remnant" which they persecuted mercilessly. Who if they had not been there " we would have bern as Sodom ".

Again I say Luthers revelation not of man but if God was the emergence of the true church of God in the manifestation of what every seed does produce after its own kind .

Which in turn was mercilessly persecuted by Rime also . It's never Abel that rises up and slays Cain but always Cain that rises up and slays Abel and very often during deceitful 'conversations '.

Gerald,

I will stop here with this history of the Church up through the Reformation. As can be seen, the Church was faced with constant and ongoing difficulties with persecutions, political changes due to invasions which brought in pagans, Arians, and many regime changes in what was the extensive areas that were initially under the Roman Empire. It faced corruption, political influence and interference, great power across Europe, and the entrenchment within the Church with the Papacy strengthened, the reach of the Church into all areas of the Holy Roman Empire both politically, religiously, and in regards to controlling many personal decisions and relationships among the laity. It appears that at some point the Church of Rome made critical errors in terms of divinely ordained focus, purpose, and guidance. They departed from having a first love of Jesus and His Kingdom and embraced the love of power, earthly political kingdoms and rule, and love for corruption, moral compromise, and grifting the flock to enrich the Church beyond anything humble.

This is a sad history. But even so, there are volumes of the accounts of lives of godly believers over this time who remained true to our Lord while within the RCC and also those who sought to remove themselves from it and/or seek reform.

From the 1500's up to now, there have been many things that have aided the spread of Protestantism. One being the invention of the printing press just prior to 1500's so that the Bible could be mass produced. The translating of Scripture into common languages of different peoples. The increase of literacy among many countries, and economic prosperity that made it possible for common people to purchase their own Bible and which opened up the financial ability for many believers to become missionaries in almost all of the peoples of the world because common people were no longer simply existing on subsistence farming with the industrial revolution that brought in regular paychecks.

Hello GiGi

Thanks for that detailed summary of the church history. I don't know much about the Catholics. I know the church history from the side of the Eastern Orthodox church. They have some common period of history (till the 1000's) but then they diverge. GBU

Giannis,

This is true, there being an Eastern and Western aspect of the Church until the Great Schism of 1050 when Eastern branch broke away forming the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Regardless of what background we have in our church journey, Jesus built His church through the Catholic Church for a thousand years and then through Roman Catholicism from 1050 through various reformers and branches of Protestantism through today.

This truth is why I posted this history because it is the history from which we all can trace our Christian faith through back to Christ Jesus and His apostles.

I can appreciate what people say that may criticize aspects of what the Church did. Those who do indeed take the time to learn at least a precursory learning of the history as I have given here I tend to have more respect for their opinions on the early church, the Roman Church up to the Schism, the church prior to the Reformation, and the 5 centuries that came after the Reformation. All of these eras of the Church are part of Christ's building of His Church. We should be humble enough to acknowledge this and to be careful of what theologies and whom we follow lest we be deceived or choose to step into error.

Gerald,

Pt, 2

It was during this time that the College of Cardinals was formed and the Pope was then designated by the vote of the College of Cardinals which provided more liberty from the interference of political entities.

It was in 1054 when the Catholic Church of the East divided from the Catholic church of the West-the Great Schism. Pope Leo IX, Gregory VII, Nicholas II headed up such reforms. After the Schism Pope Urban II (1088-1099) began the Crusades intended to take the Holy Land from the Muslim invasion/occupation.

Into the 12th century the Papacy became spiritual center of the Catholic Church evolving into a great bureaucratic and administrative center, becoming the highest court of appeals exerting vast jurisdiction across the medieval Church in the continent and in the British Isles. It was under Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) that orders of monks were begun with the rise of monasteries. At this time many Sects arose and separated from the Catholic Church. These sects were severely persecuted in an attempt to eradicate them. There were many killed by the Church.

Papal authority grew in the following centuries, but in Pope Boniface VIII (1294-1303) got in a conflict with King Philip IV of France which resulted in the collapse of the medieval papacy. There was much corruption in the Church, yet Pope Clement VI (1342-1242) protected the Jews who were being blamed for the Black Death.

By this time Europe was changing into various nations with feudalism on its way out. The universal reach and authority of the Church of Rome and Papacy was greatly challenged.

From thence, came the Renaissance and soon the Reformation (1303-1565) of which The Roman Church launched a Counter-Reformation here the Catholic Church did attempt to purge itself of abuses.

The leaders of Protestant Church Reform of the 1500's and 1600's opened up Christianity to the populace and loosened the grip of the now highly institutional, dogmatic, and unyielding of the RCC.

Hello again, Gerald,

There were no emperors in Europe from 476-800 A.D. There also was no Holy Roman emperor (the reign of the Roman Catholic Church politically)During this time there was a great migration and military warring by those peoples termed "barbarians"-The Franks, Alani, Suebi, Goths (including Ostrogoth and Visigoth), Huns, Vandals, Bulgars. Which threatened the western church in many ways.

In the early 500's the Burgundians moved into Gaul and the Frankish Merovingian dynasty arose which later created the Carolingian dynasty of which Charlemagne was declared the Holy Roman Emperor of the Roman Catholic empire.

During the 5th-9th century the Saxons migrated from the southern Baltic coast through Germany into Gaul and Britain. The Saxons collided with the Franks, but eventually were absorbed into the Frankish dynasty in the 700's under Charlemagne whom campaigned to gain control of the Saxons and also to convert them to Christianity. The inhabitants of Britain became a mix Britons, Angles, Saxons, Frisians with various petty kingdoms throughout, as was the case in

western continental Europe as well.

During this time the Frankish kings/dynasty exerted a large degree of control over the papacy and Catholic Church during the 8th-10th centuries. And the Papacy retained the right to crown emperors and at times inter interjected into the politics of the Frankish dynasty, often intervening in political disputes. The Carolingian dynasty waned in power by the 9th and 10th centuries and the papacy and Catholic Church were under the control of powerful nobles of the feudal arena. Emperor Otto 1 even deposed Pope John XII (955-964) At times the papacy suffered from corruption, weakness, and controlling factions among the nobles.

It was during the 11th and 12th centuries where Pope Leo iX attempted to reform the clergy and papacy morally and institutionally.

At this time the Franks developed the most powerful Christian kingdom in medieval Europe

Gerald,

This is a simple synopsis of the development of Christianity in the West and East. When the Roman Empire fell from power, the Church of Rome took on extraordinary powers to become the Holy Roman Empire, which became the full-fledged RCC.

There is a lot to the history of the Church Jesus founded. Some of it is very good and rightly proclaimed Scriptural truth and some of it fell into error int he first centuries with various heresies you can examine if you wish. Because the Roman empire was such a strong power and the rise of the Byzantine Empire was a threat, Rome became the central seat of the Church with the appointments of Popes. The term "pope" was originally applied to ALL bishops of western Christianity. when the church in Rome became very strong especially having two bishops, then Rome began to be given stronger control of the other bishops across the Roman Empire. It was in the 9th century that the Bishop of Rome was designated as the official pope. Between the end of the the 300's up to the 500's or so, there is not a whole lot of history concerning the development of how the Bishops of Rome became to seen in a higher order than others. But with the development of Rome becoming the seat of Western Christianity, the Roman Catholic Church began to emerge along the way.

Anyway, I could add so much more about this history but I think you can do so yourself just as easily.

My main point in this is to show that Jesus did build His church before, in and through the western and eastern branches of the church for nearly 1000 years. And there was much error that developed as the centuries passed, there is really no indication that the centuries following just after the apostles was unduly corrupted or maligned by heretics, as you have seemed to state in your posts.

Thankfully, God raised up many people within this church body from 1000 A.D. up through the 1600's to challenge the heresies of the church and work to reform the teachings of the church.

I direct you attention to the book of revelation and in particular to the first (3?) chapters.

The first church left it's first love . Which opened the door to the Nicolaitins that is the separation of the ' ministers' over the congregation ( lording over them) . Which in turn led to Jezebel and all her false doctrines which in turn led to the baalamites .

To all but one the message was to repent and if they did given a promise if they overcame .

Luther initially sought to reform the Roman church but in the end found she could not or rather would not and left .

He held to the " scriptures alone " as the only foundation for real faith . Rome then as now holds thst her 'traditions' carry more weight . Her heretical doctrines she held then ( and still does ) were proved false by sound biblical argument to be so and by her murderous reaction to sny and to all who dared chalkenged her usurped authority and power . She has since added to them and now counts herself infallible in them . How then can she reform?

The Protestant churches also need to repent but at least she does not think she is in infallible and there is a possibility of reform .

But Rome is endeavouring to insinuate herself again as a true Christian church and the final authority . She has neither repented of her errors or her down right lies and her idolatry is beyond question .

Those men of God mentioned by others identified her as thec"whore of Babylon " the scarlet woman riding on the beast . There is much to commend that appraisal for she is indeed riding on the beast of the so called Eu.

The new incumbent from what I have heard him speaking is perhaps the worst and many are going to be deceived by him .

But each man must be persuaded in their minds but let me warn that unity at the expense of truth is high treason to heaven .

The King of England has been most foolish while Rome has been most cunning .

She plays the long game and is well experienced in the ways of the world .

Gerald,

Pt. 2.

I believe that some who did go "sideways" in their understandings of what the apostles taught did receive correction and returned to correct belief. Others did not, but I believe in the generations following the apostles, most church leaders were highly desirous of following correct doctrine and that they were born again and filled with the Holy Spirit. I believe this because I believe that Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would guide the church in all truth and that Jesus would not forsake the church He is building.

During the first 3 centuries Christianity spread throughout the Roman Empire of the time. It was not the Roman Catholic Church at that time. Christians where widely persecuted by the Roman Empire, by those who held to pagan religions, by Jews, and other groups that did not understand the Christian faith or felt as if it was a threat to their own system of beliefs or power in society.

In 313, the Edict of Milan by Constantine legitimized Christianity as a legally recognized religion. It was not at this time the Roman Catholic Church. Across the Roman Empire during this century, Arianism was prevalant among the Ostrogoths and Visigoths that flanked the empire on the North and East. The Church at that time fought against this heresy strongly in a unified effort. Later in this century the Edict of Thessolonica was put into effect by Theodosius I declaring Christianity the official church of the Roman Empire. in 380, denouncing Arianism as heretical. But even in this event, the Roman Catholic Church was not in existence. Julian the Emperor from 355-360 rejected Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire. During this time period the Church divided into East and West branches with one centered in Rome and the other in Constantinople with the rise of the Byzantine Empire in the East (395. A.D.).

Though there were popes prior to the sack and fall of Rome in 455 gave rise to the RCC as the reigning power in the west.

I love studying history and religion, especially Christianity. I enjoyed your thread and actually learned a couple of things. God bless you and yours!

Dear new friend,

I am glad what I posted was helpful. That was my intent.

Church history is valuable to know and to know that it did not occur in a vacuum. What was happening in the world around the growth of the church was quite influential. There were so many historical happenings that pressed upon the Church whether persecution which forced the church to go underground for a time, to rapid migration of peoples rom the Eurasian Steppe, Asia Minor, Eastern Europe, the Baltic Sea area which included Scandinavian peoples and Germanic peoples that pressed westward/Most of these peoples were pagan and the church attempted to bring them the gospel to convert these peoples.

Got to go, grandbaby is here!

There is written evidence that withingb30 and 50; years of those vents in Jerusalem the gospel of Jesus Christ had not only reached the shores of Britannia but by the grace of God a church iEngland was well established and already had a reputation for learning and piety . Long before the emissary from Rome came to ' convert ' the English to its Roman ways and se5 up its seat in Canterbury .

So while all that hub hub was going on in the 'centre' of things God laid the foundations for a great work, in England .

Dear Gerald

Pt. 2

Because their were so many different kingdoms, some controlled by Angles, Saxons, and Viking kings, Christianity's spread depended much on the spiritual bent of the kings. It took several more centuries before the whole of Britain was considered to be Christian, perhaps even until after the Conquest.

I think that we all can learn much from history. It helps us understand the challenges the church faced over the centuries. And we can continue to believe that Jesus is faithful to His will to build His church through these centuries. He used imperfect people, governments, and those in the visible Church to continue building His church. The Roman Empire eventually was used by our Lord to spread Christianity far and wide and it's fall (Roman Empire) to bring the Church through many high and low points marked by corruption, reform, disagreements, to bring many leaders and common people back to putting Christ at the center of faith. Believers have a lot of good and bad to sift through when learning the history of Christ's church which should humble all of us to not be too high-minded lest we should fall into error or worse.

Hello Gerald,

Christianity did come to the British Isle in the first century. It did take awhile for the church to grow large enough to have a bishop assigned to it. Ireland remained pagan until the 300's. The Roman Empire set up military encampments in what became Britain in the 1st century and remained there until the Emperor removed all of the Roman forces from Britain in the 390's. During the subsequent period Britain was left on its own and much of it reverted to paganism. The invasions of the Angles, Saxon, and Jutes conquered much of the Isle and paganism became stronger. But the Christian church in Britain remained.

Tertullian wrote in 200 A.D. that part of Britain were Christian in areas that were not under Roman rule. In 313 A.D. sources record that 3 British bishops attended the Council of Arles. But Christianity was still a minority religion. Patrick was a missionary to Ireland in the early 400's. The bishops lived in monasteries and were trained by Patrick and by the late 400's Ireland was fairly Christianized. During the same period Kentergern and Maughold worked in parts of Scotland and Manx (respectively) to bring North and West Britain to Christianity to by 550 A.D. The South and East of Britain was under the control of the Angles and Saxons and was mostly pagan at this time. It was not until the end of the 6th century that the Angles and Saxons was won over to Christianity when Pope Gregory sent monks to Kent to evangelize and support Christianity among the Anglo-Saxons.

In the 800's to 100's the Viking Invasions of Britain re-established paganism to Eastern and Northern Britain. Because pagan practices were very much a part of the lifestyle, many who converted continued to practice both Christianity and paganism.

Since Britain was not a unified nation until the conquest of England by William the Conqueror, the Isle was made up of many kingdoms, each with their own king and ruling class.

See Pt. 2

In that Harold was king England was more unified than you suppose and it's infrastructure and the way it was organised made it a very rich prize in deed .

The Normans did not unify the country but they did establish a bit of iron in our character . And when King John began to rule and govern like all European rulers did arbitary dictatorial and a law unto themselves it got so bad that the Norman barons looked to the Saxon King Alfred of what an English king should and at the point of a sword got thecKing to publicly admit that even kings must be subject not to their subjects but to principles of heaven and goid government and in signing the Magna Carta laid the foundations to this nations political liberties .

William in calling all the barons to meet with him near Winchester and to swear an oath to the crown is still renewed at each State opening of Parliament .

This nations true liberties are founded upon biblical principles . But we have exchanged the truth for a lie our liberty for bondage and our true Christian heritage and liberty (founded in thst early first cent and secured at the Reformation) this nation has exchanged for a " mess of pottage" . We are thus heading for storms the like of which we have not seen for over 400 years or so .For when the political power economic and religious powers join up then we will see the persecution of THE faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints" . But thanks be to God " we have this confidence ,God knows who are His " and if men can no longer make righteous judgement God still can and will,sepera ting the sheep from the goats .

As the cross of Calvary loomed people made their choices and took up their positions .

From Judas to the religious leaders . So it is happening now .and if any doubt that consider that if you are taking up,your cross and following Him where it is your actually going to?

Yes, Gerald,

Harold Godwinson was the last Anglo-Saxon king but had a very short reign (January-October 1066) and died by the army of William the Conqueror.

Both the Anglo-Saxons and the Normans were Christianized in the Church of Rome. Both went swiftly to war with one another withing their tribe but also without. They were constantly working to have dominion of the lands of Britain both prior to and after this Conquest. So, I don't think that the Anglo-Saxons were anymore honorable and bound to Christian principles than the Normans or the Danes or the Welsh or the Irish or France or any of the other powerful kingdoms of the European Continent and Isles.

But as I said earlier, God was causing history to go along as He willed. He used various peoples in this fight for land and dominion to forge changes towards His purpose and end goal throughout history. And, as I will say, His goal was not about Israel or Gentiles separately, but to bring to Himself in Christ a redeemed people, Israel and Gentile, from every tongue, people, tribe, and nation to the praise of His glorious graced and that in Christ, all things will be completed and made complete, especially when He returns for His second coming.

The Constitution of England .

It has been tried tested and proved in the fires of great trials and tests and proved to be strong enough to withstand all the forces of hell bent on destroying it and flexible enough to rule and govern an empires covering a 1/3 of the globe .

Therevis but one part still needed to ' perfect it" or make it completed . Parliament needs to learn what Kings of zEngland had to learn that european rulers never learnt teligious and political . That she cannot do what Kings of a England cannot do nor hope to achieve what they fought a Kingnof over.

She can learn it in peace at the point of a sword or in bloodshed . But learn she must and learn she will . For a Parliament is less than a King and if a King of England was not able nor tyen a Parliament .

For the truth is not democratic nor is it a tyrant but it does have fits own imperative .

Democracy has a fatal flaw in it and a hidden snar to the unwary . It's the idea that if you can get a majority by any means fair or foul get a good grip on the legislative process and keep it . You can delude yourself into thinking the truth is whatever your ' majority' says it is and you can impise yiyr very subjective opinions on everybody else by your corriot and perverted laws .

You cannot establish a lie you can on,y impisebit .First by corrupt and perverted law and when that does not work by tyranny and oppression .

I can see God working in this nations Constitution for "He can take those things that are not and bring to nought those things that are "

It has been said ' They who forget history are doomed to repeat it ' I'll extend the thought . If history has to repeat itself because of lessons not learnt it is never exactly as before but it is always worse than the last time .

Great Britain beyond all dispute has enjoyed more liberty in law religion and politic progresively and for longer than any other nation on earth . It has on at least 4 major occasions bern the bulwark against every rising autocratic dictatorial tyrants religious and political that has ever arisen in Europe and by the grace of God defeated each in their turn first alone then with others .

Despite our many sins some very great despite our many failures too many to mention we must have got something right . ThatvEurope never has and it wouid be profitable to any to stop and consider why these islands on the edge of the western world have enjoyed so much liberty and Europe so little and the world then as now even less and worse .

'If we don't study and consider history we lose a great deal expecialy if we don't recognise Gods workings and yes God works in all history and among all nations but not always the same.

Moreover the Bible is as much as an historical record of the children of Isreal as it is a revelation of God for how else can we know Him who is the same yesterday today and forever? For if we know Him who worked in the past we can be encouraged that given the same conditions He is the same today.

This nations liberties have deep foundations but were not established till much later . ' Democracy has its limitations and we are not a democracy though many assert otherwise for their own reasons.

The Constitution was not written by men nor on partchment but on the indelible history of this nation . It cannot be unwritten or undone and those who think otherwise often pay a terrible price for doing so.

To be continued :