Revelation Chapter 12 Discussion Page 7

Revelation 13:8 would cast great doubt on the notion that O.T. Saints were saved in a way other than we are and would cause me to re-examine my beliefs on why King David asked God to cleans him from secret faults.

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Again. Just saying.

Blessings.

Thank you for your "reply" David.

Have a nice day. I hope to see you in Heaven. Not of works lest any man should boast. To take either a Arminian or Calvinistic or just 1 point calvinistic (security of the believer) seems to be picking what you want to believe. The Bible is a paradox and a series of tests IMHO.

You seem to be taking a very hard line on ceasing from sin, hope you're not proud of your position...

Just sayin.

Love,

Nathan Samuel Unger

Claire,

The Bible says that you need to see yourself as a sinner first. Then once you see yourself as a sinner, you pray and ask God to forgive you of ALL your sins. After that, you get baptized. The Holy Spirit will not make you perfect until you go to Heaven, but will be with you all along the way till you die. Many people believe that you have to be a good person in order to get into Heaven but that is not the way it goes. "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6 :23. I would encourage you that if you are looking for more Bible verses on How to be saved, look at the KJV Bible and look in either John, or Romans. Let me know if you have any questions on here.

Sara J.

Romans 3:4

God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

1 John 2:22

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Proverbs 17:4

A wicked doer giveth heed to false lips; and a liar giveth ear to a naughty tongue.

1 John 5:10

He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth NOT... God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

John 8:44

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the TRUTH, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Proverbs 30:6

Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

John 14:6

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through ME.

1 John 4:6

We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the SPIRIT OF ERROR.

Mishael: Don't try to reason with a witch. This is what they do: cause chaos.

Hi Chris,

I have just read the sermon 'The law written in the heart' by C.H Spurgeon as you suggested. Correct me if I'm wrong, but how I read it, is that I need to be baptised physically by water & cleansed spiritually by the blood of Jesus for my sins to be washed away & then the Holy Spirit will continue to make me perfect until I die & go to heaven. The problem I'm having is that my pastor says that I need to be born again before I get baptised ? How do I know who's interpretation is right ? Mine or theirs ? I feel like I have had a change of heart over some things, yet I'm still struggling with other things like unforgiveness towards my dad's girlfriend & their daughter. I have repented over this, but weeping over it & still feel resentment towards them & don't know how to get past this. Does it mean that I have to weep & morn over the situation for me to be feel any different about them ? Because if this is the case then I wouldn't even know where to start. I want to forgive them, but I can't really say that I would want to play happy families with them any time soon. I just feel like I will never be able to forward at this stage.

God bless you & your family.

Kind Regards

Claire

Hi Nathan, just trying to answer your questions. David, being in the Old Testament, had carnality in his heart. So that account was true that he had hidden or secret sins. Jesus had yet to die on the cross to make the way for salvation and sanctification that are available today. Acts 2 is the first account of sanctification being given to many. Sanctification is not normally going to be a public display of fire and noise. However, this particular account in Ac. 2 was a very large gathering, and God wanted to draw attention to those that were preaching His word. This was not a pentecostal filling of the Holy Ghost, there were not unknown languages except that the apostles were speaking in foreign tongues or languages that they did not previously know. God enabled them to speak other known languages to go to other lands and preach the Word of God. Ac 2:8 "And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?" Those that heard the talk understood the words.

Ro 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." Being saved is evident; brethren and living sacrifice, not dead in sin.

1 Jn 1:7, 9 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Here it says being cleansed from all sin and then forgiving sins and cleansed from unrighteousness. And vs 6 mentions walking in darkness, that is from the stain of sin. Vs 8 there are those that believe they have no sin to be forgiven, vs 10 is similar. How then does vs 7, 9 say we will be cleansed of sin? Sin of the past, which all have done, needs repented of. Then we are free from committed sins, and need to go on to sanctification to be fully free from sin.

HEBREWS 10

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the ASSEMBLING of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Comment By Mishael:

Verse 25 is talking about going to Church; and it clearly tells us why we do that. If Almighty God is telling us to go to Church, I'm sure it means He will keep us from getting the virus. But it's up to each individual to practice safety if they want to.

Why do we go to Church? It is more than seeing what people are wearing, or critiquing the praise and worship songs, or Who's there and who's a "no show." How truly petty and carnal.

We are there to fellowship, share a testimony of how God has blessed you that week; or someone you know. If people are fearful, then YOU pray for God to meet their needs. Have something positive to say. Exhort each other that Jesus is returning soon.

Do we think that Moses had time to stop and share with frightened people crossing a sea bed fleeing from Pharaoh? God told him to get up Front do the people could see him.

Church is FAMILY. It's not Facebook or twitter or fake media; they will gossip as soon as your back is turned.

We need to read ALL of Hebrews 10.

Only a soldier whose been on a battlefield knows what I am saying: NO SOLDIER LEFT BEHIND !!! You pick them up and get them to safety.

The Christian Church in China is having their churches SHUT DOWN. You can't have church in your home. They confiscate all christian literature and destroy it. Now they are giving $30,000 fines to Christians who do not obey. Your athiest neighbors rat you out to authorities. China cops are installing surveillance cameras in private homes on repeat offenders.

Be a blessing to those that may be scared and need encouragement.

Regarding sin.....no one is without fault, therefor do not deceive yourself.

John1 7:10

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Page 3.

I understand the concept about the laws being written upon our hearts, & many more directions of the Spirit to us, & to know them & do them to God's Glory, but I feel like I struggle to live up to God's expectations. I feel like I'm destined to join the goats at this point instead of the sheep. Thank you for suggesting the Spurgeon.org site. I will check it out & let you know what I think. My younger pastor has mention Spurgeon before saying he was a good preacher, but by the time I got home I'd forgotten all about it. Thank you for all your continued guidance, advice & encouragement.

God bless you & your family.

Kind Regards

Claire

Page 2.

I agree that our Bible study would be more useful when we are given the opportunity to contribute. Me & my friend have already suggested that, & they didn't take the hint. This is why we plan to look for another church after the Covid 19 pandemic. I have never heard of the buzz words "cell groups", but it sounds like a good way to make the Bible study less boring, but I doubt the pastor would go for anything like that either.

I know that repetitions in prayer are not good because I have read it in the Bible. I do set aside time in the morning & at night to say my prayers & I do also say the Lord's Prayer in one of my prayers. In most of my prayers I would quote a scripture from the Bible. Example. 'Heavenly Father, Have mercy on me a sinner, It says in your word Matthew 5.44 But I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray from them which despitefully use you, and persecute you. (& then I'd say) Lord, Please help me to love my enemies, to bless them that curse me, to do good to them that hate me, and to pray from them which despitefully use me, and persecute me, that I may be a future daughter of your kingdom. Thank you Father, In Jesus name I pray. Amen'. Praying doesn't come naturally to me because I only ever heard the teachers pray in assemblies because I don't come from a Christian background, so nobody around me prayed. I only started to pray in the last year or so, though I have been going to church for almost 3 years because I felt like an idiot at first & I don't feel God's presence around me, so this can be discouraging at times. I find it difficult to pray because I don't feel a connection. I do talk to the Lord sometimes as I go about my daily activities, but I don't feel like I get any answers. I told the pastor this & he said that I'm not going hear an audible voice. I've heard an audible voice in the past, but unsure if it was from God, so I just ignored it.

Hi Chris,

Page 1.

Thanks for your reply. I also think that it's important to encourage one another in the Bible & in dealing with issues in life from a biblical perspective, though it is limiting on here. I don't think this should replace the enjoyment of personal Bible study, prayer & corporate fellowship with others either & feel like it would be detrimental for me to just rely on this site. I believe that we should seek out a Fellowship & believers that will help us in our walk & for us to be a blessing to others. One of my friends from my old church that now goes to a different church has asked me to go walking with members of another church a few times in the past, but the weather wasn't that great and it got cancelled, so I'll do that when it's not raining.

We don't have a large congregations, there's only about 30 members, but more recently it's been more like 20. The impression I get from him is that he is very proud of himself, loves the own sound of his own voice & can even be overbearing at times. A few people haven even nodded of in his services, including me and the associate pastor because he can be a bit boring. He's not very good with social interaction, except when he's receiving compliments. He said to the younger pastor that he enjoys the privileges from wearing the collar even when he's not in church. Our younger pastor is more down to earth & just wears a shirt, tie & pants. I get the impression that most people don't read their bible & seem very worldly to me. I have a lot of time on my hands at the moment because I've only just come to the end of my recovery period for depression & anxiety, but with the Covid 19 pandemic, I haven't resumed to normal activities as I still need to be reassessed before doing so. I grew up singing Christian songs at my school, like 'Who put the colours in the rainbow', 'He's got the whole world in his hands', & 'All things bright & beautiful', so that's probably why I prefer more modern Christian songs.

Page 3.

The matter you wrote about: "I don't think we can get to heaven just by following the commandments or just trusting in the blood of Jesus. I think we need to do both", might be a simple reasonable understanding for our Christian walk, but theologically speaking, incorrect. The Laws of God are very important but when considered in the light of the New Covenant of Grace, they are no more considered as the Jews do, by which they measure their relationship to God. But those laws are now written upon our hearts, & many more directions of the Spirit to us, that give not only a larger number of precepts to obey, but also the power to know them & do them to God's Glory. The old Law only showed us our sin & brought death - the Law of the Spirit enables us to fully obey God above & beyond the limitations of the old Law. This was very brief that I've written. I would rather direct you to: spurgeon dot org and then search His Library, Sermons, and the topic: The Law written on the heart. C.H. Spurgeon was a great English preacher & he gave this sermon in October 1882, so his expressions are a little 'old' & message lengthy - but stay with it if you can - much can be learned from him as well.

Blessings to you.

Page 2.

A Bible Study can be as you're experiencing, or more useful when the opportunity is given to also contribute towards it; i.e. the teacher can share the message but he needs to also generate questions that help in putting what is learnt into one's personal life. Discussion would also be a good thing & in a house Bible study, the blessing of praying for each other & support would be invaluable. We used to use the buzz words "cell groups" in my day, based on the Greek, koinonia = having close fellowship, which essentially was for the purpose I've outlined.

Repetitions in prayer are not useful to oneself or before God. Prayer is essentially one's intimate conversation with their Heavenly Father - it is the expression from a heart of love & devotion to a God of Love & Grace. There is no special time to pray or how to pray, but setting aside time, 'a quiet time' is special as one sits quietly with the Lord. We can use the Lord's Prayer as a model or even add to it, but just personal prayer with predominantly worship & thanks to your Father & enjoying His Presence rather than the 'give me this & that' which many make as the major part of their prayer time. Pray from your heart, pray as you read the Word, talk to the Lord as you go about your daily business. His Spirit is always there to minister to you, even at times when you're agitated, confused, lonely or lacking direction - in faith ask His help & go on living trusting Him for His answers.

Page 1.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts & feelings, Claire. It is important that we encourage one another in matters from the Bible & in dealing with issues in life from a biblical perspective. Even though using a written medium like this can be very limiting, it is useful if one is unable to receive personal interaction with others; but I don't think this should replace the enjoyment of personal Bible study, prayer & corporate fellowship with others in the Body. Too many young people are relying on their phones as their primary means of communication & I feel, may be detrimental in the long run, but for believers, we should earnestly seek out a Fellowship & believers that will help us in our walk & of course you too can be a blessing to others as well, as you learn lessons from the Spirit's ministry to you.

Sometimes, pastors with large congregations, only get the opportunity to meet his congregation after the service, not often at the door as he might be ministering to someone or attending to some business. Whether he seeks to be complimented or to get feedback from his message, you can discern. I know our pastor looks forward to Monday mornings when he gets 'feedback' through email as some find that he hasn't 'crossed his T's or dotted his i's'. It is a great & grave responsibility that they have & I still feel that biblical accuracy from the pulpit, sans the preacher's weaknesses, should be our focus. I grew up with singing Hymns, so I'm the opposite, preferring them to modern day songs. These too aren't necessarily wrong, but my worship experience is made special & meaningful from well selected hymns.

"And we know that God never overlooks sin & judgement remains for those who spurn His Love by sinning. Yet His Mercy extends to all sinners & His Grace to fully forgive the penitent". So, this would be the answer for Lot's sin, I read Apostle Peter ( 2 Peter 2:6-8), the major sins of today, which are many, will face judgment in the future. Only the person's who believe in God will not face Nuclear fire in the end. This will the end for many in the as addressed in Revelations.

Thank you

Good Day

Hi Chris,

Thanks for your reply. No worries about the mix up about the church being the believers & not a building.

Regarding The Way Prepared. 'Our Greatest Hindrance'. I'm just searching for the truth as to which day is the true Sabbath Day, so that I don't continue to break any of the ten commandments. I don't really enjoy going to church at all personally. I'm not a fan of hymns & prefer Christian songs, Everyone uses vain repetitions in their long prayers. (I do this myself at home because I'm unsure of the right way to pray ?) Are we suppose to just say the Lord's prayer because God knows our hearts & what we need before we even ask ? Our bible study consists on one of the pastors reading about 5 verses from the new or old testament & then them giving their opinion for about 30 mins & we're just expected to take it as gospel & not question it. (the main pastor loves to go round shaking people's hands after the service looking for complements on the sermon) I rarely agree & make a sharp exit were possible, so I don't feel obliged to shake his hand. I know that women aren't suppose to speak in church & are supposed to ask our husbands about things, but seeing that I'm not married, this isn't an option for me. Another thing that bothers me is whether I'm doing the right thing going to church ? I'm the only Christian among my friends & family, so if I don't go to church I'm feel I'm more likely to go backwards on my walk, rather than move forwards. Is fellowship with people online enough for me to grow in the faith ? I honestly don't know.

Regarding 'What are the Ten Commandments'. I haven't read the article. I think we should follow the ten commandments & the new commandments that Jesus gave us. I don't think we can get to heaven just by following the commandments or just trusting in the blood of Jesus. I think we need to do both.

God bless you & your family.

Kind Regards

Claire

Amen. God bless.

Chris and others, consider this on remaining sinful or becoming free from sin after salvation.

Mt. 5:14-16 says about being the light, a city set on a hill, not to be hid. Those that are saved are to be seen and recognized for what God has done. We are to show through salvation from sin the example of what man should be. If your light is the same as those that are lost, how can it be seen? Through God's power I have become a saint, one that does not sin by salvation from sin and sanctified by the Holy Ghost. 2 separate acts that fully save a person. As said before, 1 Jn 3:8-9 says those in sin are of the devil or born of God sinless. I used to be under Satan's control. I used to sin because it was in my heart to do those sinful acts. Sanctification changes that sinful desire, it's rooted out, replaced with the Holy Ghost. It is a second separate act. The heart of man can't be left empty or you have the condition mentioned of in Mt 12:43-45.

We must accept that God as Creator could have set the rules for salvation to whatever He wanted. He requires us to repent to be forgiven. He needed us to be saved from sin or He can't fellowship as with Adam in the beginning. Sin always separates man from God. Is. 59:1-2 Sin keeps God from hearing your prayers except 1 of repentance. Being saved from sin is a way to see that person as different than others.

How many religions are there? Many. Are all right. No. God has one Church. It is listed in the Bible. Mt 16:18 Jesus said He'd build His Church, gates of Hell shall not prevail. Sin is not in His Church. Ac 20:28 1 Co 1:2 10:32 11:22 15:9 2 Co 1:1 Ga 1:13 1 Tim 3:5 1 Co 11:16 1 Th 2:14 2 Th 1:4 Church of God is named in the Bible, churches of God as there are more than 1 congregation but still the same standard in all. 1 Co 1:10 all speak the same. Same standard, doctrine for all God's congregations. Why the confusion of doctrine? Only 1 is right. Is your church named in the Bible? No then come out of Babylon Re 18:4.

Thank you Helene!

Hi Carolyn,

I have lifted up your son, Joey's name in prayer for both healing and salvation.

May God bless you both.

Helene

Please pray for my son Joey today

Pray for healing from COVID

Thank you

Thank you for prayers

Daniel, you bring up some good points in this account of Lot & his family. Unfortunately, the whole story of Lot's life is not given to us (& this is not a cop out to excuse him or even to suggest something that's not written). So we can only guess what might have happened. We do know that the Apostle Peter ( 2 Peter 2:6-8) speaks of the righteous aspect of Lot, in that he was vexed by the wickedness of Sodom & Gomorrah, which might have meant that he did, in some small way, try to influence the people to turn from wickedness - he had some authority there in Sodom as he "sat at the gate of Sodom". Yet, Peter doesn't refer to what he did that we regard as sinful behaviour.

It's noteworthy, that in eastern cultures, certainly in times of the Old Testament, that when a guest comes to your house, he is regarded with the highest honour possible, both in receiving the best you have to offer as well as full protection. The only right thing for Lot to do when confronted by those depraved men at his door was to offer his daughters so that his guests would not be humiliated or hurt. I did wonder why Lot didn't offer himself - it would have been the more noble thing to do. I realize that this type of behaviour is a difficult concept for us to grasp & should not be used as an excuse for such sin, but that's how it was.

In regards to God dealing with Lot - we just don't know. Did God severely chastise him & judge him & ultimately relegated him to the abyss? Or, did Lot realize his great folly & cry out to God in repentance, having also been witness to his Uncle Abraham's sins of the past & possible repentance at the altar he made ( Genesis 12:12-20; 13:1-5)? We can only speculate, rather than condemn Lot & his daughters entirely. And we know that God never overlooks sin & judgement remains for those who spurn His Love by sinning. Yet His Mercy extends to all sinners & His Grace to fully forgive the penitent.

Hi Claire, I think I misunderstood Ss' reply to you concerning the Church. Re-reading it shows that Ss also believed that the Church is the body of believers & not a building. Apologies.

Re: The Way Prepared. At their subject, 'Our Greatest Hindrance', the major part of that was highlighting that the Sabbath Day should still be the day that believers meet for worship. I'm unsure where you stand on this matter, but I think you are happy to go to your Fellowship on a Sunday or do you insist it be a Saturday?

The other subject I looked at on that Site, was 'What are the Ten Commandments'. In the most part, the instruction was correct, though with the emphasis to keep the Commandments as a duty in the Christian walk was not properly addressed & balanced. The material failed to take in, to whom the Commandments were specifically given, why they were given, & the Apostle Paul's discourses on the cessation of the commandments upon the advent of the New Covenant through Jesus' Blood. We can indeed be taught about God's requirements for Holy living from the commandments & other instructions to us, but to rest on them for our salvation & entrance to the New Jerusalem, I find erroneous. I can't go into detail here about this as it would require many pages, though, if you search on this Site, you might see some of the discussions we've had on it - both for & against.

David, you've given some great Scriptures about sickness, prayer & healing for the believer. I can't fault the Truth therein & its reality. The problem arises with the understanding of the sanctifying work of the Spirit. We've discussed this at length & I do understand your position on this, but I've yet to clearly see that the Spirit's Work in the believer includes the removal of sin & the sin nature.

As well, I don't share your belief that sin is only a spiritual illness. That sin, which finds its home in the carnal nature in man, has as its products, sickness, disease & death. No sin nature = no sin, sickness or death. But I stop here as we've beaten this matter to death though it has served to show me how other believers regard scriptural Truths. Thank you for your time, David, you are one of the few who have stayed the distance.

HELL, do these scriptures prophesy HELL. God loves his enemies as he teaches us to love our enemies.

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.



Psalms 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember, and turn unto the Lord, and all the kindred of the nations shall worship before thee.



Psalms 65:2 O Thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come.

Psalms 66:4 All the earth shall worship thee and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name. Selah.

I Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, WHO IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, specially those that believe.

Thank you all for the support!

Thank you!

Thank you so much may God bless you!

wen's yur burthda jhordin?