Discuss John 3 Page 11

Leoj

Hello everyone, Had an interesting question asked at our men's Bible group. " Our we sinners because we sin, or do we sin because where're sinners". Would like to hear your comments based from the Bible . Thank you

MountHoreb Response to Leoj:

When reading the bible, A Sinner is someone who has a leaning or urge to go against the will of Jehovah God ( Psalm 83:18)

God Saids one thing; a Sinner is inclined to go the other way. we have an example at Genesis 3

Point: Romans 5:12-15

There is Hope: John 3:16,17; 1 Timothy 1:8-10; 2 Timothy 3:16,17; John 17:3

Jehovah ( psalm 83:18) is not looking for perfection. he is like a father and we are like his Children prone to mistakes.

our father is looking for us to tell him the truth, to be humble, to cry to him and repent especially if it's something that

is to difficult to handle on our own. as sinners we need the spirit of God in order to have self-control in all things. This is why Jesus said what he said at Matthew 6:9-12; 1 Peter 5:6-11

Point: Luke 24:45-48; Romans 7:7-25

Hope these scriptures help. Thanks

If we go back to Eve. she gave birth ( Genesis 1:27,28;4:1,2;5:25). some of these offspring's died by means of old age,

Genesis 3:19; Genesis 6:3, violance or destroyed by the flood ( Genesis 6:5-7,11-13;17). Only Noah his wife, Shem, Ham, and Japheth their 3 wives survived. that means only eight people survived out of Adams and eve's children and grand children.

The point! not all of Noah's children listened to God. They followed Satan the devil and his lies Genesis 3. when you read about the Canaanites ( Genesis 13:7; Leviticus 18:1-5) this bad nation came through Ham descendance ( Genesis 10:6). or Ammorites, some Noah's descendance created a nation by their family name Genesis 11. When Jehovah ( psalm 83:18) confused their language they all spread out and became nations of people like you see today.

to the point: Abraham was a righteous man who lived in Canaan. but one of God's angels told him to leave Canaan then became a father to a nation of Israel ( Genesis 17:1-8). God name Jacob Israel ( Genesis 32:28). this is how a Nation of Isreal came about. Canaan land later became Jerusalem belonging to Israel the Jews.

However, Israel repeatedly sinned by worshiping other gods. even Solomon the last king worshiped false Gods ( Nehemiah 13:23-27) Jesus turned to the Gentiles which means nation who will believe ( John 3:16,17).

However, their are some Israelites who did believe, but most rejected Jesus.- Acts 1:6-8; Matthew 24:14; 2 Timothy 3:13-17



It's a lot of info. but I hope the bible answered your question HOW A NATION BECAME A INDEPENDANT NATION

Usually; when we look to scriptures on God's promises; we are looking for His Providence in our individual needs and concerns such as finding a spouse; providing food; clothing and shelter and those basic salvation assurances such as John 3:16 which we have as an anchor to our soul; to quote Hebrews 6:19. We also look to heaven and being reunited with our loved ones; hopefully realizing that only those in Christ will have an eternal future which we would desire to share as 1 Corinthians 15 starting in verse 14 assures us of as a future reality.

Admittedly; there aren't a lot of specific verses as to what exactly we will be doing in the Millennium and eternity. I have elaborated on rewards involving ruling over more or less cities in regard to our faithfulness now; as well the scripture about David once again ruling as co-regent under Christ (see Jeremiah 30:9). The Levites are said to have some sort of role at least in the Millennium; with sacrifices in a new temple mentioned in the last few chapters of Ezekiel.

Perhaps studying Israel as a Theocracy in the past (although certainly not a perfect example) gives us some idea how we will rule and reign with Christ ( Rev. 2:26-27 but also somewhere in the O.T. mentioned as well). Isaiah 66:19-20 shows what the physical survivors will do after Armageddon in reaching distant places gathering them for worship in Jerusalem.

As Resurrected Saints interacting with earthly people; we may need to be in charge of ensuring that ceremonial purification occurs so that those in our presence not to mention in the presence of Christ won't die because of some impurity. It is hard to say how our roles will work with those who are in physical bodies still doing some sort of Temple ritual. We also will probably work out disputes; perhaps initally as a sort of cleanup crew (again with the physical survivors) after the Ezekiel 38 war (likely part of the campaign related to Armageddon).

Thank you for your response Jesse A.

No Problem Jesse.

Good morning, GiGi,

My apologies. I should have opened up the thread first. I just saw that you were posting to Jesse and thought that you were posting to me but I wasn't sure what it was about.

I see now that there is someone else posting with my name, except this person's user name is Jesse A. All my posts will always just say Jesse.

Anyway, have a blessed day!

GIGI

Thank you for your responses, and I hope you are having a wonderfully blessed day. Yes ma'am, I agree with you. We must hold fast to Gods truth and test all things spiritual and backed scripturally.

To answer your question, yes I did mean to send that message to you. As I myself , Did have an amazing and tremendously blessed experience . In which i was not worthy of. But through Gods ever abounding mercy , grace and infinite love he allowed me to experience it.

I try always to share my testimony, as I desire with all my heart that everyone know the truth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ . And How much he really loves us.

I know with all my heart, mind ,body and spirit,

Jesus is the way the truth and the life.

I pray the lord bless you tremendously,

And keep up the good fight.

I love you all.

Well Stated Brother Chris.

"His contact with His Father & His angels were separated only by position, not by relationship & possession."

God bless.

Yes, I was responding to the post from Jesse A.

Am I mistaken on who sent the response to my post?

GiGi,

Did you mean to send this to me?

Jesse,

In my first post, I was referring to that which Jesus brought from heaven, is deity made flesh, His perfect life, His sacrifice for sins, His resurrection from death and ascension to heave. Jesus did that in His own divine power. No man can do that. That is my main point.

Perhaps this clarifies your question about my post.

Jesse, I can see your point on this. My uncle had such an experience when he had a heart attack and then was revived. He said he saw Jesus who was reaching His hand out to him. I know things like this occur to people at times, but not very often. I cannot vouch for any such experience of another person. They may be genuine or not. But I take the Lord's words seriously, therefore, as I said, we should beware of those who report such experiences. I did not say to dismiss such claims. We should test all things, especially anything to seems to contradict the Lord's words.

With much love . I would ask on your last statement , just for clarification.

You do not believe that some of Gods children have died and seen heaven or some have even spoke with Jesus and returned?

To minister and share the love of god they experienced and their life changing testimony .

To bear witness to our savior Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father?

May gods grace and peace be upon you.

Love you all.

Hi Cheryl1655. Just to add to these other good comments, in reference to "...even the Son of man which is in heaven", I agree that it should be left to how one chooses to read & understand that statement in John 3:13. To help me with this, I consider John 3:11, 12 as well: "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"

I note that Jesus is stating, "WE speak...WE have seen...OUR witness". Who are the WE/OUR here? Surely it can't be anyone on Earth, as none present with Jesus or even seen in the Old Testament have ever spoken of or seen those mysterious things of Heaven. But 'in very Truth', Jesus states that there is a Divine Presence both in Heaven & now on Earth that has made such mysteries & Truths known to man.

So when Jesus states, "...even the Son of Man which is in heaven", the already perplexed Nicodemus is hit with an almost uncomprehendable Character of God & this Man before him stating that He was in Heaven, now here as a Son of man, who still has a Presence in Heaven. Even though there is insufficient Scripture to state precisely what Jesus was trying to indicate to Nicodemus, it seems that we won't be far from the Truth, that Jesus by coming to Earth, laid aside His Glory (see John 17:5; Philippians 2:7; Hebrews 2:9), so that He could take on flesh & live as a Man. But where did He leave His Glory, that He take on a position beneath God's Holy angels? I feel that this Divine Person of the Godhead left that part of His Majesty in Heaven, while He walked this Earth as the humble Servant of men. To Nicodemus this would have been inconceivable, but Jesus' always held His Presence in Heaven as on Earth - His contact with His Father & His angels were separated only by position, not by relationship & possession. Likewise, our relationship to the Godhead must also be.

Hello Cheryl,,

This verse in John 3 is telling us that no mere human can ascend up to heaven. None of us is able to do so nor are any of us worthy to do so. But the Son of the Father, who resided in heaven for all eternity was worthy and able to descend from heaven to become a fleshly man for the sake of mankind-to bring to to humans salvation from our sins and restore our fellowship with the Godhead. Only Jesus could bring from heaven the glories of God's grace, mercy, and blessings to those who believe in Him. Only Jesus can bring to earth anything that is needed for mankind's redemption, being that He was first in heaven and at the right hand of the Father as King and Lord forever. Even the angels could not descend to bring what Jesus did and only Jesus can bring to mankind the words of life, having come from within the God. He alone knows the fullness of the mind of God the Father and the Holy Spirit since they together are one in unity and deity.

The Tower of Babel was designed for a man to ascend up to heaven to bring down to earth what is legitimately only God's to send forth. We know what God thought of that. He stopped this effort in its tracks and the tower was never completed.

So, please be warned about receiving from any man any supposed information from heaven or anyone who reports having gone to heaven and returned back. Jesus says that this will not happen.

Hi Cheryl1655,

This is a tough verse to fully understand. First, in the context, of the conversation Jesus is having with Nicodemus it would seem that Jesus was telling him no man had ascended to heaven to get the knowledge of heavenly things and returned to teach it to men on earth, similar to Proverbs 30:4. So, no man is qualified to speak of them but He/Jesus who came down from heaven.

John 3:13 No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

One thing that makes this difficult is the ending, it is like Jesus said this after He had ascended to heaven after His resurrection. "Which is in heaven" Some translations leave this ending out where it ends with man, which would involve other topics I will not add to this, hope this helps.

God bless,

RLW

John 3 verse 13, explain ?

XXI. OF THE GRACE OF TITHING AND GIVING

I believe God's plan of finance for His Baptist Church's is to be tithes and offerings. Scriptural giving is one of the fundamentals of the faith. I believe that every Believer, as a steward of that portion of God's wealth entrusted to him or her, is obligated to support his or her Baptist Church financially. I believe that God has established the tithe as a basis of giving but that every Believer should also give other offerings sacrificially and cheerfully to the support of his or her Baptist Church for the relief of those in need, and the spread of the Gospel. I believe that Church members are commanded to bring their tithes and offerings into the Storehouse (Common Treasury) of their Baptist Church upon the first day of the week (Sunday). I believe that a Believer relinquishes all rights to direct the use of the tithe or offering once the gift has been made. I believe under grace we give, and do not pay, the tithe - "Abraham GAVE a tenth part of all." "Abraham GAVE the tenth part of the spoils," and this was four hundred years before the Law, and is confirmed in the New Testament, the Lord Jesus Himself said concerning the tithe, "... these ought ye to have done ..." ( Genesis 14:20; Leviticus 27:30; Proverbs 3:9, 10; Malachi 3:10; Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42; Acts 4:34, 35, 37; 1 Corinthians 16:2; 2 Corinthians 8:7; 2 Corinthians 9:6, 7; Galatians 6:6; Ephesians 4:28; 1 Timothy 5:17, 18; Hebrews 7:2, 4; 1 John 3:17).

Amen Brother Jesse.

It's God spirit that opens eyes and ears to scripture and also shuts them.

Everyone that holds the view that the king James

is the only inspired Bible doesn't agree on all doctrine with others that holds the King James as the only inspired Bible.

You may have to dig deeper with

Improper translation, and sometimes that's just a matter of turning a few pages!

Revelation of the word of God and its message is spreaded throughout the entire Bible.

When there is error, The scripture should straighten itself out.

If you tore John 3:16 out the Bible, In the body of the Bible "OT and NT" you doesn't loose the message. It's still there!

In biblical times everyone who spoke Greek or Hebrew didn't agree on all bases.

God bless.

Yes. Pharaoh during the days of Moses.

is a key example. Exodus 4:4-9

Despite the evidence, refused to

believe. Exodus 9:27-30; Exodus 9:33-35

Denying Jesus was blaspheming against

the spirit. John 1:14-18; Matthew 5:17,18; Matthew 7:28,29

and refusing his father in heaven who sent

Jesus also. Matthew 3:16,17; John 3:14-18

Yes humans glorify each other. but this glory may be different from the way

God in heaven Sees. 1 Samuel 16:7

Jesus who was chosen by Jehovah- psalm 83:18

Who is the one Chosen by God to bring salvation- John 3:16,17

never glorified himself. Matthew 22:36,37 but with the glory

and honor and title God gave to him, he spoke. John 5:19

Matthew 23:8-12; LUKE 1:28-33; Isaiah 9:6,7

We have a good example of the book of Job.

the bible said he was a righteous man and fearing GOD.

Jehovah ( psalm 83:18) himself called job righteous.

It was Satan doubting Job as a righteous man Job 1:6-11.

Satan planted seeds of Doubt by raising up 3 friends of Job

who spoke without really understanding Job 2:11. Their false

assumptions cause job many pains.

Jesus is aware of the traps of Satan and how he uses deception and lies.

Luke 4 and Matthew 4.

Speaking about things we don't understand in a since can be

like the ways of Satan John 8:44. false accusations and hinderance to do what is

right or what God wants us to do is from Satan- Genesis 2:15-17; Genesis 3:1-5

Jesus wasn't saying Peter was Satan. but he was being a hinderance to

his obedience to Jehovah God. John 3:16,17; Isaiah 12:2

Jesus after his impalement, Jesus came to Peter again. John 21:15-17

We can avoid hindering others by praying.. Matthew 6:9,10,13

Apart from Salvation, "there is none righteous no not one" ( Romans 3:10). God declares that Job was righteous because God had saved Job. When God saves us, i.e. we become Born Again, God gives us a new Resurrected Soul which "can not sin" (1 John 3:9). Once God has saved us, the Righteousness of Christ is IMPUTED to us ( James 2:23) and we will have an earnest ongoing desire to be obedient to the Law of God. But we can and do fall into sin because or new Resurrected Soul still resides in a body that still lusts after sin and we are an integrated personality, body and soul ( Romans 7:18-25).

Therefore Job is called righteous because God had saved him.

The Bible IS THE WORD OF GOD. There are no contradictions nor "lies" in the Bible because God is the author of the Bible.

Page 1.

Thank you bro Giannis for your lengthy response. If I might address some of your points.

a. John 3:3-6. "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God". If my Gk Lexicon is correct, the rendering is that 'a man is born out of/out from water and out of/out from the Spirit' ('ek'). In both references to the water & the Spirit, we see that one has to make a new appearance: the first which represents the physical birth (since this whole discussion with Nicodemus is about these two births), & the second, the spiritual birth. In neither of these births, the babe has any control or power. In the physical, the natural laws of human birth must take place, as also in the spiritual, the natural working of the Holy Spirit must take place to produce a new child/creation.

And there must be evidence of that work; Nicodemus could only understand it in the natural sphere, but in the spiritual sphere, the Spirit's Presence & Working must be seen, or else it is false. Therefore, I can understand the Spirit working through the Gospel preached by man & by the Word that is read, to minister to an unbeliever, but when a person turns to Christ & is born again, the Holy Spirit must indwell him & reside permanently ("Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his", Romans 8:9) - a very telling verse, leaving no room for misunderstanding. I could never perceive that the one who is in Christ can ever be one without the Holy Spirit residing within - it simply goes against the reason & working of the Spirit. So when you write, "So the Spirit works in the heart of a born again person, although He may not dwell in them", this is something that I simply cannot understand in light of the Scriptures, because re-birth is always from an inward dwelling, not an outward influence. See Page 2.

Pt 1. Hello Chris

Thank you for your response. I will make some comments and leave this subject, unless you would like us to keep on.

Firstly I can not accept the idea that things used to be otherwise in the early times of the church than nowadays. In such a case the Bible does not serve as a ruler to compare things with the Truth of God's Word. In the case that things change anybody can claim anything and nobody can check if something is right or not. This is not to offend you but it is something I firmly believe.

I do accept the change in your life. In John 1416-18, Jesus said to His disciples, "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for HE DWELTH WITH YOU, and shall be in you.". That is how the apostles were clean. It was the Spirit who worked in them, although it didn't dwell IN them, He actually dwelt WITH them. So the Spirit works in the heart of a born again person, although He may not dwell in them.

But lets take it from the begining

EXTERNAL MANIFESTATION OF NEW BIRTH AND SPIRIT BAPTISM

1. New Birth

In that famous discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus, Jesus explained how new birth occurs, John 3:5-8, "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

Jesus said that we can not know how new birth occurs, there is nothing to show that a person is saved, not any external sign but only their life (this doesn't mean that one can not leave their good course later on)

John ray it is good to have you with us in the family of God.

First, take it slow and ask few questions at a time. It is good to stay on the same subject and learn it well before moving on.

First, being 'born again' means you must be born from above through the bag of water innounce of what happened in the first heaven, earth age. Nicodemus was at odd about this, but Christ explained it in John 3:13.

Satan is the 'prince of the air not the God of the world.' Meaning God has allowed his spirit to be on earth at this time until he is kicked out heaven for a five month period. Mark 13:20 tells us that Christ shorten the days for the elect sake. Revelation chapter 9 tells us that it is five months.

Hi Ronald.

Travels is over for the week!

It's always tough for me to keep up because all my replies and posts are off my cellphone.

I was looking at how the scripture would look using the Greek as you said. "Oudeis , no one"



Here it goes from verses 2-4.

And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

And no one in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

And I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.



You see it doesn't change nothing using the Greek word

"Oudeis" translated no one.

And I agree John was in the spirit, but John saw, and was shown visions all throughout Revelation.

And he sought the redeemer which had to be a man in particular locations and one was Heaven.

This took place around the throne!

Revelation 4:1-2. "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

And immediately I was in the spirit; and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

John describes what he saw and what he heard in a particular place.

I believe that we shall also reign on earth and that shouldn't void our access to Heaven.

Jesus is able to freely go to and from and I believe we will also because in this regard we shall be like him. 1 John 3:2.

Also see Romans 8:16-21.

We're joint heirs with Christ!!

God bless.

Hey Chris,

Thanks again, I hope you don't mind, I understand you are done with this, and this is not to drag this on, a tit-for-tat and there is no need to reply. I usually keep posts short, but I feel I left things out and this will be it for this topic. Thanks again for the light on John 3:13.

The Priests and Pharisees kept on pushing Jesus for signs and proof and they were dead set on killing Him from early in Jesus' ministry. Jesus told them in John 8:28-29 that they would know He was the Messiah the Son of God and those things that happened when He died were proof for them. In John 5:25 "the hour is coming and now is,"

My understanding of the saints that came out of their graves was the same as Jairus's daughter, the widow of Nain's son. and Lazarus, when Jesus cried out caused all those things to happen and the saints came out of their graves and went into the city. Not in their glorified bodies but like Lazarus and the others.

In Matt. 27:54 They saw all these things happen they feared greatly saying "Truly this was the Son of God." The priests and Pharisees knew then they just killed the Messiah the Son of God. That is why they went to Pilate to guard the tomb, Matt. 27:62-66, as we see the disciples in shock still not knowing Jesus was going to be resurrected. The priests even with big money paid off the soldiers to tell a lie, Matt. 28:11-15.

Jesus is the Firstfruits and my understanding is He is the only one who has been resurrected with a glorified body until He returns.

God bless,

RLW

Hi Chris,

Thanks, Chris I was just being silly with the ruckus, I took a closer look at John 3 and I understand what you are saying about John 3:13 being in the discussion with Nicodemus. Jesus is telling him that no man had, or could go up to heaven, to bring the knowledge of heavenly things. That is a better understanding of the context of what Jesus was telling Nicodemus.

On the other, We are told in Hebrews 9:27 man is appointed once to die but it is God's will and His pleasure, and some things we have not been told. We know in Hebrews 11:5 Enoch was translated that he should not see death, and in 2 Kings 2:11 Elijah was taken up, other than that we speculate.

We do know Moses died Deut. 34:1-5, that is why I believe the transformation was a vision, whether a future event like things John was shown in Revelation or just a vision to strengthen the three to be apostles. My understanding is our soul is not immortal, to me scripture says we are mortal 2 Cor. 15:46-48 and will be until we are resurrected, 1 Cor. 15:53-54. The spirit that goes back is our breath/life, Ecclesiastes 12:7

In Matt. 27:50-54 my understanding is different, the word resurrection is a different word than used for all the other times it is in scripture it has more of a meaning of waking up. I would think after being hung on the cross for 6 hours one would be in and out of consciousness. In vs 50 Jesus cried out and yielded up the ghost.

All the things that happened next are connected with and, all happened when Jesus died. The earthquake opened the graves and those who arose went into Jerusalem when Jesus died not after Jesus was resurrected. That is my understanding, but scripture does not tell us about who they appeared to or what happened to them. Verse 54 confirms this to me and ties it to John 8:28.

Thanks for your reply and a better understanding of John 3:13, but my understanding is still no one but Jesus has ascended to heaven or will.

God bless,

RLW

Hello Ronald. If I may share my thoughts on the Scriptures you shared & hopefully not feeding into a possible ruckus.

a. John 3:10-13. I understand that this speaks about Jesus asserting that it could only be Him Who brought this wonderful Truth (of rebirth) to Nicodemus since none else before Him had done so. He was the One always in Heaven, & as the Word of God now in flesh, He was even greater than the prophets that went before Him ( Hebrews 1:1,2); in that He, the Living Word, brought out the mysterious Truths of Heaven. There was none other that ascended to Heaven in the past, heard such things & then came back to Earth to deliver the message - only Jesus could do it & has done it. So Jesus isn't talking about a resurrection here, but that none has ever done what He has done now (i.e. entering Heaven & returning with this Word).

b. Then what about Enoch, Moses & Elijah? Enoch & Elijah are understood to have been translated at their final day on Earth, i.e. they weren't resurrected (as I understand that a resurrection can only happen after one dies first). Of Moses, it would be difficult to correctly understand his destiny at death; was it just in the grave awaiting resurrection, or into Heaven itself, or maybe as in the account of the rich man & Lazarus, where the spirit & soul temporarily resides in a 'paradise'. The only way that I can understand Moses' coming (in Matthew 17:1-4), is that Moses was released from his paradise, given an outward form (as also Elijah), for the purposes of this transfiguration & then maybe returned from whence he came.

c. And yes, I would agree that for Jesus to be "the firstfruits of them that slept" ( 1 Corinthians 15:20), then no other before Him could have experienced a bodily resurrection; either they were translated or their spirits/souls went into that paradise hold. Then of those who were resurrected post-Jesus' resurrection ( Matthew 27:51-53), we aren't told what became of them after that - we can only speculate.