Thank you for your reply, I certainly do not mind. I understand that this subject is delicate, and I am blessed to have brothers and sisters on this site willing to discuss it. Revelation is a challenging book, and I am looking forward to Jesse getting through it.
You have listed some exciting verses, and I hope to share my thoughts on them and your post, not to determine who may be right, but rather to view the discussion as a nudge to pray and study. On the verses you listed, John 12:49-50, Jesus is saying the Father gave Him a commandment and what the Father told Him to say, Jesus was obedient.
John 8:28-29, the Pharisees were debating with Jesus who He was, and He said that in verse 28-29 when He is lifted up/crucified, they will know who He is. We see in Matthew 28:54 when Jesus died and those things that happened, the centurion and those who were there greatly feared and said, "Truly this was the Son of God.
John 7:16-19, the gospels, reveal the glory of the Father who sent Jesus; all that Jesus did was accomplished by the Father through the Holy Spirit, with which Jesus was anointed without measure.
In John 4:34, John 5:19, John 5:30, and John 8:26 all say that it is the Father, not Him, on in John 14:10 Jesus was in the Father and the Father was in Him this was from the time Jesus was anointed without measure the Holy Spirit when He was baptized and made the Messiah.
Jesus was and is the Word of God; John 1:14. God was in the flesh in Jesus through the Holy Spirit, just like these verses say. The beginning in John, many understand it as the beginning of creation, my understanding is the beginning of Jesus' ministry, as we see in Mark 1:1, Luke 1:2, and 1 John 1:1.
To me, Jesus was the first in the plan of God, Revelation 3:14, and everything was created in Jesus, not by Him, and all was created for Jesus and the purpose of the Father. Revelation 13:8 and 1 Peter 1:18-21.
I think that our interpretations of God giving this revelation to Jesus is linked to the way we think of how the Father and Jesus interact with one another in Scripture.
For me, I think of what Jesus said in these verses:
Jn. 12:49-50
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment,
whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak."
Jn. 8:28
"Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."
Jn. 7:16
"Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me."
Jn. 4:34
"Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work."
Jn. 5:19
"So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father[a] does, that the Son does likewise."
Jn. 5:30
"I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."
John 8:26
"I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world."
John 14:10
"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works."
And in light of what Jn. 1:1-3 says of Jesus as the Word who was with God in the beginning and is God. Vs. 2-3 says
"The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
And Heb. 11:3
"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."
"Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."
"Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? I think I mentioned this a while back, maybe a year or two ago that Jesus Christ was the phrase used after the first century. It started out as Jesus the Christ, and then the term "the" was dropped. Christ is His title. It's Jesus the Messiah. That's what Christ means. CHRISTOS in Greek is the same as MASHIACH, or Messiah in Hebrew. And it means anointing.
The people who deny that Jesus is the anointing of God, that person is antichrist that denies the Father and the Son.
1 John 2:24 - Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
Let that therefore abide in you, which you have heard from the beginning. The word abide (MENO) is a key word in the Christian faith. The words abide, remain, and continue in this verse are all a form of the same word. A believer is someone who is abiding or remaining in Christ, and Christ is remaining in them. It is continuous, and it is permanent. That is the characteristic and evidence of a genuine believer.
So, he's telling them, that which you heard from the beginning, let it abide in you. You see, they had to be taught at one time. If that which you heard from the beginning shall remain in you, you also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. It's just what Jesus said in John 8:31. He said if you are my disciples, you will continue in the word.
Here we see the Parable of the Two Sons (v. 28-32) and the Parable of the Tenants (v. 33-41) followed by further warnings of Christ of the Kingdom of God. Verse 42 contains a quote from Psalm 118 showing that He was indeed the stone which they had rejected after they affirmed in the second parable what should be done to the wicked tenants when the owner comes back.
It appears from my limited study that John has the most references to attempts to kill Christ; although some manuscripts eliminate the last verse in Matthew 21 no doubt there was constant desire to go after the Lord whether to arrest Him or kill Him on the spot. They were concerned about the reaction of the crowd for the obvious fact that miracles couldn't be denied. NO one ever cast any doubt on the veracity of the miracles; but they did as to who He was and His credentials such as denying His virgin birth ( John 8:41); and he being merely the son of Joseph and Mary in John 6:42. Which was it the real or illegitimate son? They couldn't accept the virgin birth which means the testimony of Mary and Joseph was taken to be false in that regard.
They knew that no one had ever healed the blind even with the resurrection recorded in the book of Kings of the widow's son. ( 1 Kings 17; John 9:32).
Reading Isaiah 53 shows a graphic picture of Christ and His sufferings at the cross along with other passages in that book and other prophecies such as Psalm 22 in particular. Which is more of a miracle God in all His glory creating the heavens and the earth and sustaining the universe or condescending to take human form to be the propitiation for our sins? ( 1 John 2:2). Which displays His Divine attributes most clearly? In truth; both aspects need to be emphasized lest we consider Him to be anything less than God or insufficient to come in our place to make an atonement for all of the sins of His children. First He had to live as one of us in order to die in our place ( 1 Cor. 15
Today as I speak there are 19 Tornado warnings and nearly as many severe thunderstorm warnings. Worse; this is supposed to be an unprecedented 5 day event. We have had in the last week or so a 7.0 earthquake in Tonga and the 7.7 in Myanmar.
The wars continue along with rumors of new conflicts that our country is likely to be involved with.
No doubt Christian persecution is still going on; we have seen in recent months the continuing problems in N.E. Nigeria and last month in Syria with martyrdom large scale.
Along with this there is the constant spiritual battle with the world; flesh and the Devil. We need to "buffet ourselves" ( 1 Cor. 9:27) to continue to stay in the fight and endure until the end. I have always said we can learn some things from our enemy: here is a quick review.
He never rests day or night; that is implied by 1 Peter 5:8 Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. Interesting the verses that talk about never sleeping day or night actually refer to God such as in Psalm 121:4 and Isaiah 40:28 but Proverbs 4:16 talks about how evil men cannot sleep without doing evil.
He along with all the other demons know who Christ is and His authority ( James 2:19). Satan obviously is aware of this through His heavenly councils with angels and God as seen in Job 1 and 2. He knows that Christ has the power to turn stones into bread; as well as calling angels to His help as Satan quoted Psalm 91:11:12.
He has His own heirarchy or Kingdom (see Luke 11:18; Ephesians 6:12).
His goal has been consistent since His fall and the beginning of human history ( John 8:44).
I am sure we could find other passages in this vein. Ultimately God causes all good and evil ( Isaiah 45:7). All things are according to His purposes; just as Christ was exalted after His suffering so we shall be and rewarded if we persevere.
My last post brought out the fact that indeed Gentiles were part of God's plan; and we can further see this in many other O.T. scriptures ( Isaiah 49:6; etc). Man's pride couldn't square the suffering servant made so clear in describing Christ's first coming in Isaiah 53 as characterizing the Messiah. They even denied that their heritage came from people that were enslaved numerous times in their history! ( John 8:33). Even if they called Him teacher being a good man wasn't enough to save them from their sins; but of course when He made such claims they called it blasphemy! ( Luke 5:21).
Let's do an introductory overview of Christ's many itineraries which He had to fulfill the purposes God intended in His ministry. Some of these things are unique to Him but certainly lessons can be learned as to how we plan our days in service to the King.
1. Doing all things the Father willed. John 5:19 perhaps sums this up the best. In His mission there was the inevitable death on the cross on His mind following a perfect sinless life; albeit brief walking on the earth for 33 or so years as the perfect Man. ( Luke 9:22 and many similar verses in the Gospels).
2. Salvation by forgiveness of sin was a theme that overrided any of His miracles; nonetheless there is no clear statement that everyone He healed became saved. (see John 8:45 with deliberate disobedience in His command not to start a media "circus" as a result of healing). It was imperative that Messiah forgive men's sins but then they would have to realize that He was indeed the "I am" ( John 8:48-59 further on in the passage of John quoted above).
3. Coming to display obedience to His family before the predestined time to reach full manhood and the onset of public ministry.
Jesus had no obligation to be obedient in this way; and it was not in order to simply give in to His parents wishes but to do God's will. He was the perfect worker; brother and son.
John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Isaiah 52:14 "As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:"
Belief in the Son was emphasized even by John the Baptist as a second witness as Jesus started His public ministry ( John 3:23-36). Nonetheless He often hid who He was; particularly early in His ministry ( Matt. 16:20 may be a later statement to this affect). As stated in my last post He often told people to tell no man about who did a miracle ( Matt. 8:4) so He didn't want any necessary noteriety. Those who didn't have eyes to see and ears to hear ( Matt. 13:16) simply thought He was a Prophet; or good man at best; or an illegitimate child to Mary ( John 8:41).
Given these facts and the blindness of man without the revelation of God ( 2 Cor. 4:4) we shouldn't be surprised by the world's expectations of a superman or bermensch as Neche called this individual. Men who didn't see the Lord as coming to save rather than destroy men were blind to their own state. They should have realized who Christ was regarding the clear prophecies particularly in Isaiah 53. There was a reason for the delay in what indeed will involve Christ coming to destroy His enemies and establish His Kingdom on earth; and some Jews seem to have the concept of two different figures to make sense of apparently diametrically opposed characteristics of Christ as suffering servant and conquering King.
The fact is that God planned it so the nation of Israel would be blind in part until the fullness of the Gentiles came in ( Romans 11:25). Given the fact that Naaman the Syrian and the widow who Elijah helped to feed and raise her child to life were Gentiles (Jesus enraged the Pharisees mentioning that God exclusively met her need at the expense of many others with similar situations that were Jews at that time ( Luke 4:25) was important.
John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
My prayer is that for the college students lately that seem to be responding to at times genuine preaching; are baptized; etc. that they will a year from now still remain in the faith. Discipling seems in short supply today; and for some reason it seems those who have been Christians for more than a few years aren't approached with such opportunities. Not sure about the rest of the readers here but I could continue to use that sort of discipline.
I was listening to snippets from some of Paul Washer's recent sermons on how those close friends and family members can influence us. The main point being the often subtle ways the enemy slowly chinks off our armor. Wisdom is certainly needed on how much we distance ourselves and if we can and should do so.
Being salt and light ( Matt. 5:13-16) is something that needs to be maintained. Maybe it is just me but sometimes I wonder how the light of truth has dulled in my heart; sometimes it is obvious sin but not always that clear. Oftentimes; especially with social media things that may be good but not God's best for us can be an issue. Music in particular is something I enjoy listening to; usually I stick with Christian music but interest in guitar experts and blues type music sometimes takes up too much time. I hope to be able to honor God by building up my talent with the free time I have playing the guitar that I didn't have the last couple years. But as things like exercise ( 1 Tim. 4:8) whether physical or mental benefit little.
A sermon from the late Loran Livingston also captured my attention tonight in regard to teaching our children not to just succeed with their talents and gifting in this world but to maintain a relationship with the Lord. Kids learn from what they see from parents; again in this case something can be good but if God is left out what does it profit?
Godforbid: yea,letGodbetrue, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightestbejustified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Are we responsible to know the Bible ourselves ? ?
John 5:39
Searchthescriptures; for inthem ye think ye have eternal life: andthey arethey which testify of me.
The biggest liar in the world is the devil himself as Satan.
John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is aliar, and the father of it.
There will be people with great education and decrees and will look very rightous , but deceive many .
Ephesians 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait todeceive;
Deception is only going to get worse and we are living in it right now.
2 Timothy 3:13
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and beingdeceived.
If we can't trust man , then who do we trust ? ? Most people will say " I trust Jesus Christ ". But how ? ?
Proverbs 3:5-6
Trustin theLordwith all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
We all have to trust God in His word.
Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye alsotrusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Now, after you have trusted God, where do you go from here ? ?
2 Timothy 2:15
Studytoshew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth nottobe ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
The modern Turks are also different from their ancestors. Nowadays thousands of us go there and thousands of them come here just for travelling and holidays, mainly summer holidays. They are described as nice, warm people with a very strong feeling of hospitality but a bit fanatics about their religion and nation. I sometimes pray that God opens their eyes to see the truth. There also many christian congregations there.
Well these are some details from me. Thanks for your posts brother, I enjoyed them, but aso left me sad about me not doing something similar. But everybody has to go according to their gift from God and the measure of faith He has given to anyone. But we need people to go all over the world to spread the gospel. Here we pray to God to rise people like the apostles, strong not only in speech but in power as well. Jesus was telling to the Jews that "I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me." ( John 8:18). How? "... for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me." ( John 6:36). if the ancient people who were easy to believe in myths had to see miracles to believe and we see how the gospel was spread to the world in those early ages through miracles and signs, how about modern people who are proud of their knowledge about everything? Not much will be done if God doesn't recomment His people. We desperately need God's actions. And we have messages from God that it will not go much more before He will act as in the ancient church. I want to believe that this is not the desire of our hearts and our imagination but true messages from God. I pray that God lights a fire in every nation on earth.
Lastly brother, you haven't tired me at all, on the contrary I was expecting more. it is like you are eating a nice meal and keep wanting more and more. Maybe some time you will tell us about your missions in India.
Since Scripture is clear that Jesus, the Messiah, did exist prior to His conception, then the next question would be:
What was His existence from all eternity past (as Micah 5:2) states comprised of? Luke 1:26, 38 identify Jesus as the Messiah spoken of in this Micah passage.
Unitarians believe like Ronald Whittmore: that Jesus existed as an idea or plan in the mind of God. I have yet to find this teaching anywhere in Scripture that He existed as God with the Father ( John 1:1-3; John 12:41(Is. 6:5).
John 6:46 that Jesus came from the Father and has seen the Father. An idea or plan does not see. And an idea or plan is not God as John so plainly teaches.
Jesus said that before Abraham was, I Am. in John 8:56-58, using the term "I Am" as YHWH did to Moses in Exodus 3, which means, "I exist because I exist", or "I ever exist" or "I am self-existent".
Scripture clearly teaches ( Jn. 1:1-3, Phil 1:5-8) state that Jesus (The Word who became flesh- John 1:14) existed as God prior to becoming human. This indicates that He was clearly not an idea or a plan but a real divine person in relationship with the Father, another divine person. But we also know that there is only one being that is God. Being a distinct person of the Godhead is a different category that the Being of God, not a different God, but a distinction within the one Divine Being.
In Hebrews 1 Jesus is spoken of as the begotten Son of the Father that the Father brought into the world (in the flesh) but He existed as the Son of the Father eternally before He was conceived. In John 1:8, Psalm 45:6-7 is quoted and attributed to the Father speaking to the Son, "Thy throne, O GOD; is forever and ever." The Father is calling the Son God!
John 17:5 has Jesus asking the Father to restore to Himself (Jesus) the glory that He shared with the Father prior to His (Jesus) humbling Himself to become human as well as retaining His Deity.
I have been considering your questions and praying how I can respond to help you. First of all, I will say that you can receive thoughtful responses on this forum. You can also find good answers to these two questions by searching the internet with these questions. The responses there may be as good if not better than what I or others have done so here on this forum. Not all internet sources are equally sound from a biblical perspective just as not all responses to your questions here are such. I would recommend the Got Question site as a start. They give a fairly concise explanation to your questions.
As I was thinking on your questions, I came to these responses:
1) Does Scripture speak of Jesus existing prior to His conception in Mary?
The first Scripture I will cite is John chapter 1. It does tell us that Jesus is the Word of God, who also is God, who was with God from the beginning. Jesus is said by John to have created all that has been created. And that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
John 8:56: Jesus says that He existed before Abraham existed. He used the term "I AM" in this verse which is a specific reference to the name God gave to Moses in Exodus 3, which means "I self-exist" or "I exist because I exist".
In many verses Jesus states that He came from heaven to earth, from the Father, being sent from the Father, that He is from above. The Gospel of John is replete with verses that state this.
John 8:23; John 1:18; John 3:1,17; John 6:38; John 17:21; John 3:34; John 18:36; John 1:15; John 3:12-13, 31-36; John 16: 27-28.
John 12:41refers back to Isaiah 6:5 where Isaiah saw the LORD seated on the throne and all the angels said "Holy, Holy, Holy".
John here says that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus on the throne because he was speaking of Jesus is verses 37-40.
The New Testament states explicitly in many places that Jesus is the Christ (Jewish Messiah). In Micah 5:2 states that the Messiah existed for all eternity past.
Hi Fuji. Thank you for your questions & for seriously considering this very important doctrine. Bro Giannis has certainly answered your questions very well, and if I might add more for you to consider.
Once we can understand such doctrines (i.e. as far as we humanly can understand, since the deep matters of God will always be mysterious to us in this life), then we can piece together the information the Bible gives us, to help us form an understanding & belief. True, we must confess that we cannot know everything about such a subject, such as the one addressed, but from what we're given, without forcefully altering its intended meaning, we can safely believe, before God Who judges righteously, that He would not hold us accountable for any misunderstanding.
To that end, we have already shared that Jesus was already in Heaven, whether in His references to being in 'existence' before Abraham ( John 8:58), or Paul's reference to His creative Work ( Colossians 1:15-17), or even Jesus' Own prayer to His Father ( John 17:5); and how true this prayer must have been, for would Jesus even try to hoodwink His Father on such a matter? So when we come to the Word & believe in every word given to us, as I know you do, then what are we to do with it & how are we to believe & accept the Scriptures. Unfortunately, we very often let human reasoning & logic come to the fore (which of course, is very natural), & so reading the Scriptures can be colored by that intrusion. Onto Page 2.
When, I first got saved, I never knew how the evil spirits attack . The evil spirits will put words into peoples minds and cause chaos to our daily lives . We can also be attacked in our sleep and have bodily harm .
Jesus Christ warns us of the devil and how they use people.
John 8:44
Ye are of your father thedevil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Satan has all the tools to attack us. When we sin, he accuses us and when we win souls to Christ, he attacks us.
2 Corinthians 2:11
LestSatanshould get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
Apostle Paul was attacked by Satan the fallen angle by bodily harm and Paul was still spreading the gospel of grace throughout the whole world.
2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger ofSatanto buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
No one can take away our love from God, not even Satan.
Romans 8:38-39
38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Now that I'm saved by believing the gospel of grace, I stay in the word for growth and strength in the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 3:16
That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to bestrengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
To receive the whole armour of God, you must be saved by believing the gospel of grace.
There are many verses in the Bible that show the human nature of Jesus. But also there are many verses that show the divine nature of Jesus. Some of them are many parts of John's gospel (especially the begining) such as John 1:30, John 2:19, John 3:13, John 8:58-59, John 10:30-33, John 14:9-10, John 14:23, John 20:28, Acts 20:28, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, Hebrews 1:8, Matthew 1:22-23, 1 Cor 10:9, Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1, Zechariah 11:12-13, Romans 9:1-5, and many other that I can not recall now. Jesus also accepted people to kneel infront of Him, something that is only permitted for God. Also compare Psalms 102:25-27 where it talks about God to Hebrews 1:10 where it talks about Jesus. Also compare Joel 3:5 to Acts 9:13. Compare Jeremiah 17:9 to Rev 2:23, etc.
So we have two kinds of scripture. One says that Jesus is human, the other says that Jesus is God. So what do we make out of these two? The obvious, that Jesus is the God, one person of the Godhead, who became man.
Lets think it in another way. We know that God loved people so much so that He sacrificed His own son for us. Now lets use another example. Suppose I love my brother and want to help Him. and the only way to help him is to give my own life for him. How does it seem to you that I would sacrifice instead of my own life, my son's life for Him to help Him? Why my son? And not myself? The most sensible thing is that I would sacrifice my own life for him, not somebody's else. That would be very egoistic. Somebody else to suffer for my intention to help somebody that I love? I think you can understand what I trying to say. So what did God do? He sacrificed Himself for us, one person out of the Godhead took on Him our nature, became a man and gave His life for us. So it is God's love that attracts people to Him. It wouldn't be love if He sacrificed somebody else, an innocent person's life, for his intention to save us. I hope I haven't done it so complicated to understand. GBU
Hello Timmywynne. There are many Scriptures that point to the Triune Nature of God, and specifically, that Jesus Christ & the Holy Spirit are revealed to us from the very Being of God the Father. When we think of the Trinity, we know we won't find that word in the Bible, as it is purely a descriptive word of what the Bible declares to be the fullness of God's Being. So to the verses you seek, and you will need to read them fully in your Bible.
Of Jesus Christ: Isaiah 9:6,7 (an Old Testament Prophecy); Micah 5:2 & John 1:1-14 (from everlasting); Matthew 1:22,23; Mark 2:5-7; John 8:56-58; John 16: 27,28; John 17:4,5; John 20:27,28; Philippians 2:5-7; Colossians 1:15-17; Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; Titus 3:13; Hebrews 1:1-3; Hebrews 1:8-10; 1 John 5:7; 1 John 5:20.
Of the Holy Spirit: Matthew 12:31; Luke 1:34,35; Luke 11:13; John 14:26; John 15:26; John 16:7-11; Acts 5:3; Acts 8:29; Acts 13:4; Romans 8:14; Romans 8:26,27; 1 Corinthians 2:10-14; 1 Corinthians 3:16; 1 Corinthians 6:19; 1 Corinthians 12:11; Ephesians 4:30; Hebrews 10:29; 2 Peter 1:21; 1 John 5:6.
The above are a few Scriptures that point to the deity of Jesus Christ & God's Spirit: all showing that they don't work independently from God, but have been sent out from God, from God's Being, to accomplish His Purposes in the world. And we know that Jesus, as the Word of God clothed with humanity, is the very expression of God to the world ( John 14:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; 1 John 4:2). Hope these will help you in your study of this very important doctrine. Blessings.
Ms Dee, I pray for you and you're Mother to received the Lord's blessing of his knowledge, wisdom and understanding of his word of truth. We all need the truth and Jesus Christ is the truth .
The Truth:
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, thetruth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me
John 8:32
And ye shall know thetruth, and thetruthshall make you free.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 by believing in this verse may change a life
I wish to use this excerpt because it explains this topic so well and identifies so many Scripture verses.
Excerpted From: Got Questions:
What Does It Mean that All Sinned?
Romans attests that in Adam, all sinned. Theologically, this has been called "original sin" over the centuries. Original sin does not mean that we are guilty of Adam's sin, but that we inherit a sinfulness that is transmitted from Adam to all humans. No human is exempt from being sinful and corrupted.
Humans are driven to sin, enslaved by this sinfulness to continue to sin and to rebel against God, as these Scriptures say:
John 8:34
Jesus replied, "Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.'
2 Peter 2:19
They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves to depravity. For a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.
Titus 3:3
For at one time we too were foolish, disobedient, misled, and enslaved to all sorts of desires and pleasures-living in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.
Romans 6:16, 17
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Romans 6:20
For when ye were the slaves of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Romans 3:10-12 quotes Psalm 14:2-3 and Ps. 53: 1-3 saying that no one does what is good, not even one, no one understands the things of God (spiritual matters) because the god of this world has blinded us so that we cannot see the glory of Jesus in the gospel.
Paul also says that all humans are hostile to God, at enmity towards Him, His enemy, dead in sin, and enslaved to sin, we do not seek Him nor can we please God nor submit to His law. Elsewhere we are told that it is man's pride that keeps Him from hating his sin and submitting to God.
( Romans 2:1; 5:10: 3:10-18, 8:6-8; Eph.2:13; Ecc. 7:20; Ps. 14:2; 36:1-2; Is. 53:2)
Day 27 January 27,2025 Matthew 5:14-16 KJV Being a Light West Angeles Church Consecration Calendar
Me being a member at West Angeles Cogic Church Cathedral Los Angeles California
Matthew 5:14 KJV
My Interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
" Jesus Christ is life on earth how to live John 8:12 KJV
God's word la has to be done to all the world.
Matthew 5:15 KJV
My Interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
" To believe in Jesus Christ laws, rule amd rules to get what you want. To believe when you die you will go to heaven and not he'll. 1 Corinthians 15:34 KJV Romans 10:10 KJV
Jesus Christ is power and effectual. Example House of Prayer Luke 19:46 KJV. Candles lighted by the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I believe and God has done for me Ephesians 6:15 KJV giving me peace.
Offered your heart to God. God wants you to be married.
Words you say and believe to actions to be and get reality.
Ways you can be and get what you want-reality. are listen to God's voice amd word to obey, follow, "do it" in speaking , actions, attention of communications.
Example liked by God and preferred by Christian Church named titled disciple.
Disciple definition-Showing the holy bible as life.
Matthew 5:16 KJV
My Interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
" Light shine can also be the revelation of Jesus Christ given to you Always performaning righteousness, holiness in actions "to do it" of God. To have faith, hope, love.". 1 John 1:2 KJV
I have working history of evangelism street outreach , open Leading Pulpit Prayer hour at Christian Church, Open Teaching Sunday School and Mid-Week bible study service showing Jesus Christ Is God Romans 10:9-10 KJV to all religions-Principle holy.
Hi Fuji. That's a good question & worthy comparison of the two Scriptures you gave.
My understanding is this: From those passages, I see how the Jews & Jesus viewed who their Father was; and secondly, what were the works that resulted from that relationship to God their Father.
1. The Jews sought to kill Jesus because He both broke the Sabbath & called God His Father, making Himself equal with God. The Jews considered both Abraham and God as their Father, one in a biological sense, & the other (God) Whom they worshiped, obeyed & historically with them. However, Jesus showed that His relationship with God, as Father, was different: Jesus did what God required of Him & what God would have done Himself. The Jews believed that any type of work (i.e. what they established as work) was in contravention to God's Sabbath requirements. Jesus basically intimated that God did cease from His creation Work on the seventh day, but to do good for another, to render assistance to the injured, or even heal (as Jesus did) did not contravene the 4th Commandment. So the claim by Jesus that 'as His Father would have worked on the Sabbath to heal, so He had the authority to do likewise', spoke to the Jews that this was not just a claim to God's Fatherhood as they believed, but Jesus' claim that of equality (as Jesus claimed that He does all of God's Works (vv 19,20), He can raise the dead (v 21), in Judgement & in Honor (vv 22,23), etc.)
2. In the second passage, the question again arises of the genuineness of their relationship with God their Father. This matter came up when they asked Jesus, "Where is thy Father?" ( John 8:19). Their claim to be of Abraham's seed (v 33), but their works to kill Jesus proved that their father was the devil (v 44), since this was neither the works of Abraham nor God. So the Jews claim here that God was their Father was erroneous, as the relationship was not rooted in accepting Jesus' Works & Words from God, but rather doing the works of the Devil.
Me a member at West Angeles Cogic Church Cathedral Los Angeles California
John 8:36 KJV
My Interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
" Jesus Christ is Father and the Son same language you can understand is God for us to be heirs to all the world. To believe you can do and follow Jesus and become what your expected to be the truth of God Romans 8:2 KJV, 1 Corinthians 7:22 KJV. This is the life to live also exhibited. It is used in
discipleship- to show the Holy bible is life
saints/ citizens- free from sin Galatians 5:1 KJV, liability, set free from thraldom, ransom Mark 10:45 KJV, evil ,captivity of Satan.
Freedom from the laws, rules, thraldom that are not of God moral and obedience to it. You are titled to freedom to the house of God and his supper. A example of analogy used family of God Himself.
Ways you can be free from sin are to listen to God's voice and word to obey and follow " do it" (speaking, actions, attention of communications)
Examples of people in the holy bible that made themselves free in God you can read and follow are Romans 1:1, 2 Peter 1:1, Revelation 1:1 .
I am sure we all have thought about that, but it is hard to answer. We have a loving and just God wanting all to come to Him and be saved because He gave His only Son for the redemption of sins. Some may say no since the only way to the Father is through the Son but what about those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus?
All of us have a conscience and the knowledge of good and evil, some get to a point of no return and God gives them over to a reprobate mind, Romans 1:28. Some go so far into evil that their conscience is seared with a hot iron, 1 Timothy 4:2, they do not know good from evil. I do not know if you have ever met someone like that, but you can see cold darkness in their eyes.
If we read Romans 1-16 it is not the hearers of the law but the doers of the law for they, have it written in their heart and their conscience bears witness. Our conscience records all we have ever done or thought. I believe this is about those who have heard the gospel and those who did not have a chance to hear it.
Many take the great white throne judgment as for the lost only, but I believe this is for those who are not in the first resurrection, Revelation 20:4-6. My understanding is the great white throne judgment goes with Daniel 12:2John 5:28-29Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15.
As it says in Revelation 20:15 all that was not found in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. So, to me, this is all the rest of the dead Revelation 20:5 if some were not found, some are found in the Book of Life. Some who lived before Jesus first came and some after Jesus came who never heard the gospel, their conscience bearing witness, will be found in the Book of Life. As we see in John 8:9Acts 24:16Romans 9:12 Corinthians 1:121 Timothy 3:9Hebrews 13:18.
Q: Prayer of Jesus establishes his glory is from everlasting to everlasting. Is it not the Word was with God and it was transferable?
A: We have the verse you have in mind. " Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."( John 17:24) Glory of the Word is that it is sound as well as it is a sign. Thy word as a sign is what we consider here. "thy word is truth." This information is the seed planted by the Sower. Jesus in his prayer refers to the son of perdition. Judas Iscariot was also among the twelve of whom Jesus says, "Those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." The Law determined the everlasting covenant did not bar any man in the Man component. That the Scripture might be fulfilled" demonstrates it was Judas's choice whether to be sanctified by the word or not. It was written of him, "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."(Ps.41:9)
Judas in refusing Jesus refused God the Father. "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name" except for Judas who refused to be sanctified by the Word.
The covenant sets After our image" in order to establish the Father Son relationship. The Word was God establishes the truth. In refusing to be 'after our likeness' betrayed the Word made flesh. The sign tells it all. Judas Iscariot was like the nation of Israel. "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."( John 8:47) Satan is the father of lies, The same rule in 8:44 can be applied to Judas."(He) abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him." Glory of the Word is established by faith. "And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them." (17:10)
Q: "The Fulness of God is in the Man component but formatted as a testimony of Jesus Christ. What does does it intend to achieve by giving differing POV?"
A: Jesus as the Son of man testified, "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true." ( John 5:31) But as the Word that was with God he could assert, "Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself,yetmy record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go." ( John 8:14). The core value for this Revelation is the Fellowship of God with Man because of which as the v.1 states,"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, " and the angel serves as a witness. Moreover in signifying it through his angel unto his servant John, "Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ" (1:1-2) the law validates it as the truth.
In arranging this last book we can pinpoint the Law , the Son "after our image" and John "after our likeness" supplying their own POV so both heaven and the earth are equally pressed into service. Without setting the everlasting covenant as the rest frame the unseen world of the Father subsuming the world made to appear the testimony shall be severely damaged. Much of the visual motifs, vocabulary of day, night, seed ("the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself," separation of light, gathering of seas are derived from the covenant. Not to mention the significance of numbers the seven days pertain to the Law of the Spirit. God is a Spirit, the Son after "our image" serves as the inner man where the soul is the quickening aspect in the makeup of man. "The heart of the wicked is little worth.(Pr.10:20)
"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."
John 8:58
"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
John 8:24
"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."
Blessings
Part 1
Thank you for your reply, I certainly do not mind. I understand that this subject is delicate, and I am blessed to have brothers and sisters on this site willing to discuss it. Revelation is a challenging book, and I am looking forward to Jesse getting through it.
You have listed some exciting verses, and I hope to share my thoughts on them and your post, not to determine who may be right, but rather to view the discussion as a nudge to pray and study. On the verses you listed, John 12:49-50, Jesus is saying the Father gave Him a commandment and what the Father told Him to say, Jesus was obedient.
John 8:28-29, the Pharisees were debating with Jesus who He was, and He said that in verse 28-29 when He is lifted up/crucified, they will know who He is. We see in Matthew 28:54 when Jesus died and those things that happened, the centurion and those who were there greatly feared and said, "Truly this was the Son of God.
John 7:16-19, the gospels, reveal the glory of the Father who sent Jesus; all that Jesus did was accomplished by the Father through the Holy Spirit, with which Jesus was anointed without measure.
In John 4:34, John 5:19, John 5:30, and John 8:26 all say that it is the Father, not Him, on in John 14:10 Jesus was in the Father and the Father was in Him this was from the time Jesus was anointed without measure the Holy Spirit when He was baptized and made the Messiah.
Jesus was and is the Word of God; John 1:14. God was in the flesh in Jesus through the Holy Spirit, just like these verses say. The beginning in John, many understand it as the beginning of creation, my understanding is the beginning of Jesus' ministry, as we see in Mark 1:1, Luke 1:2, and 1 John 1:1.
To me, Jesus was the first in the plan of God, Revelation 3:14, and everything was created in Jesus, not by Him, and all was created for Jesus and the purpose of the Father. Revelation 13:8 and 1 Peter 1:18-21.
See part 2
Your interpretation of Rev. 1:1 intrigued me.
I think that our interpretations of God giving this revelation to Jesus is linked to the way we think of how the Father and Jesus interact with one another in Scripture.
For me, I think of what Jesus said in these verses:
Jn. 12:49-50
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment,
whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak."
Jn. 8:28
"Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."
Jn. 7:16
"Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me."
Jn. 4:34
"Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work."
Jn. 5:19
"So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father[a] does, that the Son does likewise."
Jn. 5:30
"I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."
John 8:26
"I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world."
John 14:10
"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works."
And in light of what Jn. 1:1-3 says of Jesus as the Word who was with God in the beginning and is God. Vs. 2-3 says
"The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
And Heb. 11:3
"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."
"I and my Father are one."
John 12:45
"And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me."
John 8:19
"Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."
Blessings
"Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
Blessings
"Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."
Blessings
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. - John 8:32, KJV
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? I think I mentioned this a while back, maybe a year or two ago that Jesus Christ was the phrase used after the first century. It started out as Jesus the Christ, and then the term "the" was dropped. Christ is His title. It's Jesus the Messiah. That's what Christ means. CHRISTOS in Greek is the same as MASHIACH, or Messiah in Hebrew. And it means anointing.
The people who deny that Jesus is the anointing of God, that person is antichrist that denies the Father and the Son.
1 John 2:24 - Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
Let that therefore abide in you, which you have heard from the beginning. The word abide (MENO) is a key word in the Christian faith. The words abide, remain, and continue in this verse are all a form of the same word. A believer is someone who is abiding or remaining in Christ, and Christ is remaining in them. It is continuous, and it is permanent. That is the characteristic and evidence of a genuine believer.
So, he's telling them, that which you heard from the beginning, let it abide in you. You see, they had to be taught at one time. If that which you heard from the beginning shall remain in you, you also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. It's just what Jesus said in John 8:31. He said if you are my disciples, you will continue in the word.
Here we see the Parable of the Two Sons (v. 28-32) and the Parable of the Tenants (v. 33-41) followed by further warnings of Christ of the Kingdom of God. Verse 42 contains a quote from Psalm 118 showing that He was indeed the stone which they had rejected after they affirmed in the second parable what should be done to the wicked tenants when the owner comes back.
It appears from my limited study that John has the most references to attempts to kill Christ; although some manuscripts eliminate the last verse in Matthew 21 no doubt there was constant desire to go after the Lord whether to arrest Him or kill Him on the spot. They were concerned about the reaction of the crowd for the obvious fact that miracles couldn't be denied. NO one ever cast any doubt on the veracity of the miracles; but they did as to who He was and His credentials such as denying His virgin birth ( John 8:41); and he being merely the son of Joseph and Mary in John 6:42. Which was it the real or illegitimate son? They couldn't accept the virgin birth which means the testimony of Mary and Joseph was taken to be false in that regard.
They knew that no one had ever healed the blind even with the resurrection recorded in the book of Kings of the widow's son. ( 1 Kings 17; John 9:32).
Reading Isaiah 53 shows a graphic picture of Christ and His sufferings at the cross along with other passages in that book and other prophecies such as Psalm 22 in particular. Which is more of a miracle God in all His glory creating the heavens and the earth and sustaining the universe or condescending to take human form to be the propitiation for our sins? ( 1 John 2:2). Which displays His Divine attributes most clearly? In truth; both aspects need to be emphasized lest we consider Him to be anything less than God or insufficient to come in our place to make an atonement for all of the sins of His children. First He had to live as one of us in order to die in our place ( 1 Cor. 15
Today as I speak there are 19 Tornado warnings and nearly as many severe thunderstorm warnings. Worse; this is supposed to be an unprecedented 5 day event. We have had in the last week or so a 7.0 earthquake in Tonga and the 7.7 in Myanmar.
The wars continue along with rumors of new conflicts that our country is likely to be involved with.
No doubt Christian persecution is still going on; we have seen in recent months the continuing problems in N.E. Nigeria and last month in Syria with martyrdom large scale.
Along with this there is the constant spiritual battle with the world; flesh and the Devil. We need to "buffet ourselves" ( 1 Cor. 9:27) to continue to stay in the fight and endure until the end. I have always said we can learn some things from our enemy: here is a quick review.
He never rests day or night; that is implied by 1 Peter 5:8 Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. Interesting the verses that talk about never sleeping day or night actually refer to God such as in Psalm 121:4 and Isaiah 40:28 but Proverbs 4:16 talks about how evil men cannot sleep without doing evil.
He along with all the other demons know who Christ is and His authority ( James 2:19). Satan obviously is aware of this through His heavenly councils with angels and God as seen in Job 1 and 2. He knows that Christ has the power to turn stones into bread; as well as calling angels to His help as Satan quoted Psalm 91:11:12.
He has His own heirarchy or Kingdom (see Luke 11:18; Ephesians 6:12).
His goal has been consistent since His fall and the beginning of human history ( John 8:44).
I am sure we could find other passages in this vein. Ultimately God causes all good and evil ( Isaiah 45:7). All things are according to His purposes; just as Christ was exalted after His suffering so we shall be and rewarded if we persevere.
(see Hebrews 11:6).
Fight the good fight.
My last post brought out the fact that indeed Gentiles were part of God's plan; and we can further see this in many other O.T. scriptures ( Isaiah 49:6; etc). Man's pride couldn't square the suffering servant made so clear in describing Christ's first coming in Isaiah 53 as characterizing the Messiah. They even denied that their heritage came from people that were enslaved numerous times in their history! ( John 8:33). Even if they called Him teacher being a good man wasn't enough to save them from their sins; but of course when He made such claims they called it blasphemy! ( Luke 5:21).
Let's do an introductory overview of Christ's many itineraries which He had to fulfill the purposes God intended in His ministry. Some of these things are unique to Him but certainly lessons can be learned as to how we plan our days in service to the King.
1. Doing all things the Father willed. John 5:19 perhaps sums this up the best. In His mission there was the inevitable death on the cross on His mind following a perfect sinless life; albeit brief walking on the earth for 33 or so years as the perfect Man. ( Luke 9:22 and many similar verses in the Gospels).
2. Salvation by forgiveness of sin was a theme that overrided any of His miracles; nonetheless there is no clear statement that everyone He healed became saved. (see John 8:45 with deliberate disobedience in His command not to start a media "circus" as a result of healing). It was imperative that Messiah forgive men's sins but then they would have to realize that He was indeed the "I am" ( John 8:48-59 further on in the passage of John quoted above).
3. Coming to display obedience to His family before the predestined time to reach full manhood and the onset of public ministry.
Jesus had no obligation to be obedient in this way; and it was not in order to simply give in to His parents wishes but to do God's will. He was the perfect worker; brother and son.
Isaiah 52:14 "As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:"
Belief in the Son was emphasized even by John the Baptist as a second witness as Jesus started His public ministry ( John 3:23-36). Nonetheless He often hid who He was; particularly early in His ministry ( Matt. 16:20 may be a later statement to this affect). As stated in my last post He often told people to tell no man about who did a miracle ( Matt. 8:4) so He didn't want any necessary noteriety. Those who didn't have eyes to see and ears to hear ( Matt. 13:16) simply thought He was a Prophet; or good man at best; or an illegitimate child to Mary ( John 8:41).
Given these facts and the blindness of man without the revelation of God ( 2 Cor. 4:4) we shouldn't be surprised by the world's expectations of a superman or bermensch as Neche called this individual. Men who didn't see the Lord as coming to save rather than destroy men were blind to their own state. They should have realized who Christ was regarding the clear prophecies particularly in Isaiah 53. There was a reason for the delay in what indeed will involve Christ coming to destroy His enemies and establish His Kingdom on earth; and some Jews seem to have the concept of two different figures to make sense of apparently diametrically opposed characteristics of Christ as suffering servant and conquering King.
The fact is that God planned it so the nation of Israel would be blind in part until the fullness of the Gentiles came in ( Romans 11:25). Given the fact that Naaman the Syrian and the widow who Elijah helped to feed and raise her child to life were Gentiles (Jesus enraged the Pharisees mentioning that God exclusively met her need at the expense of many others with similar situations that were Jews at that time ( Luke 4:25) was important.
My prayer is that for the college students lately that seem to be responding to at times genuine preaching; are baptized; etc. that they will a year from now still remain in the faith. Discipling seems in short supply today; and for some reason it seems those who have been Christians for more than a few years aren't approached with such opportunities. Not sure about the rest of the readers here but I could continue to use that sort of discipline.
I was listening to snippets from some of Paul Washer's recent sermons on how those close friends and family members can influence us. The main point being the often subtle ways the enemy slowly chinks off our armor. Wisdom is certainly needed on how much we distance ourselves and if we can and should do so.
Being salt and light ( Matt. 5:13-16) is something that needs to be maintained. Maybe it is just me but sometimes I wonder how the light of truth has dulled in my heart; sometimes it is obvious sin but not always that clear. Oftentimes; especially with social media things that may be good but not God's best for us can be an issue. Music in particular is something I enjoy listening to; usually I stick with Christian music but interest in guitar experts and blues type music sometimes takes up too much time. I hope to be able to honor God by building up my talent with the free time I have playing the guitar that I didn't have the last couple years. But as things like exercise ( 1 Tim. 4:8) whether physical or mental benefit little.
A sermon from the late Loran Livingston also captured my attention tonight in regard to teaching our children not to just succeed with their talents and gifting in this world but to maintain a relationship with the Lord. Kids learn from what they see from parents; again in this case something can be good but if God is left out what does it profit?
Who should we trust with the word ? ?
Romans 3:4
Godforbid: yea,letGodbetrue, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightestbejustified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Are we responsible to know the Bible ourselves ? ?
John 5:39
Searchthescriptures; for inthem ye think ye have eternal life: andthey arethey which testify of me.
The biggest liar in the world is the devil himself as Satan.
John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is aliar, and the father of it.
There will be people with great education and decrees and will look very rightous , but deceive many .
Ephesians 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait todeceive;
Deception is only going to get worse and we are living in it right now.
2 Timothy 3:13
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and beingdeceived.
If we can't trust man , then who do we trust ? ? Most people will say " I trust Jesus Christ ". But how ? ?
Proverbs 3:5-6
Trustin theLordwith all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
We all have to trust God in His word.
Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye alsotrusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Now, after you have trusted God, where do you go from here ? ?
2 Timothy 2:15
Studytoshew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth nottobe ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
The modern Turks are also different from their ancestors. Nowadays thousands of us go there and thousands of them come here just for travelling and holidays, mainly summer holidays. They are described as nice, warm people with a very strong feeling of hospitality but a bit fanatics about their religion and nation. I sometimes pray that God opens their eyes to see the truth. There also many christian congregations there.
Well these are some details from me. Thanks for your posts brother, I enjoyed them, but aso left me sad about me not doing something similar. But everybody has to go according to their gift from God and the measure of faith He has given to anyone. But we need people to go all over the world to spread the gospel. Here we pray to God to rise people like the apostles, strong not only in speech but in power as well. Jesus was telling to the Jews that "I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me." ( John 8:18). How? "... for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me." ( John 6:36). if the ancient people who were easy to believe in myths had to see miracles to believe and we see how the gospel was spread to the world in those early ages through miracles and signs, how about modern people who are proud of their knowledge about everything? Not much will be done if God doesn't recomment His people. We desperately need God's actions. And we have messages from God that it will not go much more before He will act as in the ancient church. I want to believe that this is not the desire of our hearts and our imagination but true messages from God. I pray that God lights a fire in every nation on earth.
Lastly brother, you haven't tired me at all, on the contrary I was expecting more. it is like you are eating a nice meal and keep wanting more and more. Maybe some time you will tell us about your missions in India.
Blessings.
Hebrews 3:19
So we see that they could not enter in because ofunbelief.
The reason why we have Unbelief right now, it's because the word of God is Spiritual. We must worship God in Spirit.
John 3:12
If I have told you earthly things, and yebelieve not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Jesus Christ wrote the Whole Bible, that means we must believe with all our heart and soul.
John 5:47
But if yebelieve nothis writings, how shall ye believe my words?
The Jews still couldn't believe Jesus in the flesh, how can we believe his words, by Faith alone.
John 6:36
But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, andbelieve not.
If they believe not in the beginning of time and want to betray Jesus, they are doing the same with Apostle Paul's epistles .
John 6:64
But there are some of you thatbelieve not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
We have a choice to believe God's word.
John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if yebelieve notthat I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
My Gospel of Grace by believing only
This is my part 2
Since Scripture is clear that Jesus, the Messiah, did exist prior to His conception, then the next question would be:
What was His existence from all eternity past (as Micah 5:2) states comprised of? Luke 1:26, 38 identify Jesus as the Messiah spoken of in this Micah passage.
Unitarians believe like Ronald Whittmore: that Jesus existed as an idea or plan in the mind of God. I have yet to find this teaching anywhere in Scripture that He existed as God with the Father ( John 1:1-3; John 12:41(Is. 6:5).
John 6:46 that Jesus came from the Father and has seen the Father. An idea or plan does not see. And an idea or plan is not God as John so plainly teaches.
Jesus said that before Abraham was, I Am. in John 8:56-58, using the term "I Am" as YHWH did to Moses in Exodus 3, which means, "I exist because I exist", or "I ever exist" or "I am self-existent".
Scripture clearly teaches ( Jn. 1:1-3, Phil 1:5-8) state that Jesus (The Word who became flesh- John 1:14) existed as God prior to becoming human. This indicates that He was clearly not an idea or a plan but a real divine person in relationship with the Father, another divine person. But we also know that there is only one being that is God. Being a distinct person of the Godhead is a different category that the Being of God, not a different God, but a distinction within the one Divine Being.
In Hebrews 1 Jesus is spoken of as the begotten Son of the Father that the Father brought into the world (in the flesh) but He existed as the Son of the Father eternally before He was conceived. In John 1:8, Psalm 45:6-7 is quoted and attributed to the Father speaking to the Son, "Thy throne, O GOD; is forever and ever." The Father is calling the Son God!
John 17:5 has Jesus asking the Father to restore to Himself (Jesus) the glory that He shared with the Father prior to His (Jesus) humbling Himself to become human as well as retaining His Deity.
See Pt. 3
I have been considering your questions and praying how I can respond to help you. First of all, I will say that you can receive thoughtful responses on this forum. You can also find good answers to these two questions by searching the internet with these questions. The responses there may be as good if not better than what I or others have done so here on this forum. Not all internet sources are equally sound from a biblical perspective just as not all responses to your questions here are such. I would recommend the Got Question site as a start. They give a fairly concise explanation to your questions.
As I was thinking on your questions, I came to these responses:
1) Does Scripture speak of Jesus existing prior to His conception in Mary?
The first Scripture I will cite is John chapter 1. It does tell us that Jesus is the Word of God, who also is God, who was with God from the beginning. Jesus is said by John to have created all that has been created. And that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
John 8:56: Jesus says that He existed before Abraham existed. He used the term "I AM" in this verse which is a specific reference to the name God gave to Moses in Exodus 3, which means "I self-exist" or "I exist because I exist".
In many verses Jesus states that He came from heaven to earth, from the Father, being sent from the Father, that He is from above. The Gospel of John is replete with verses that state this.
John 8:23; John 1:18; John 3:1,17; John 6:38; John 17:21; John 3:34; John 18:36; John 1:15; John 3:12-13, 31-36; John 16: 27-28.
John 12:41refers back to Isaiah 6:5 where Isaiah saw the LORD seated on the throne and all the angels said "Holy, Holy, Holy".
John here says that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus on the throne because he was speaking of Jesus is verses 37-40.
The New Testament states explicitly in many places that Jesus is the Christ (Jewish Messiah). In Micah 5:2 states that the Messiah existed for all eternity past.
Hi Fuji. Thank you for your questions & for seriously considering this very important doctrine. Bro Giannis has certainly answered your questions very well, and if I might add more for you to consider.
Once we can understand such doctrines (i.e. as far as we humanly can understand, since the deep matters of God will always be mysterious to us in this life), then we can piece together the information the Bible gives us, to help us form an understanding & belief. True, we must confess that we cannot know everything about such a subject, such as the one addressed, but from what we're given, without forcefully altering its intended meaning, we can safely believe, before God Who judges righteously, that He would not hold us accountable for any misunderstanding.
To that end, we have already shared that Jesus was already in Heaven, whether in His references to being in 'existence' before Abraham ( John 8:58), or Paul's reference to His creative Work ( Colossians 1:15-17), or even Jesus' Own prayer to His Father ( John 17:5); and how true this prayer must have been, for would Jesus even try to hoodwink His Father on such a matter? So when we come to the Word & believe in every word given to us, as I know you do, then what are we to do with it & how are we to believe & accept the Scriptures. Unfortunately, we very often let human reasoning & logic come to the fore (which of course, is very natural), & so reading the Scriptures can be colored by that intrusion. Onto Page 2.
When, I first got saved, I never knew how the evil spirits attack . The evil spirits will put words into peoples minds and cause chaos to our daily lives . We can also be attacked in our sleep and have bodily harm .
Jesus Christ warns us of the devil and how they use people.
John 8:44
Ye are of your father thedevil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Satan has all the tools to attack us. When we sin, he accuses us and when we win souls to Christ, he attacks us.
2 Corinthians 2:11
LestSatanshould get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
Apostle Paul was attacked by Satan the fallen angle by bodily harm and Paul was still spreading the gospel of grace throughout the whole world.
2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger ofSatanto buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
No one can take away our love from God, not even Satan.
Romans 8:38-39
38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Now that I'm saved by believing the gospel of grace, I stay in the word for growth and strength in the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 3:16
That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to bestrengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
To receive the whole armour of God, you must be saved by believing the gospel of grace.
There are many verses in the Bible that show the human nature of Jesus. But also there are many verses that show the divine nature of Jesus. Some of them are many parts of John's gospel (especially the begining) such as John 1:30, John 2:19, John 3:13, John 8:58-59, John 10:30-33, John 14:9-10, John 14:23, John 20:28, Acts 20:28, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, Hebrews 1:8, Matthew 1:22-23, 1 Cor 10:9, Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1, Zechariah 11:12-13, Romans 9:1-5, and many other that I can not recall now. Jesus also accepted people to kneel infront of Him, something that is only permitted for God. Also compare Psalms 102:25-27 where it talks about God to Hebrews 1:10 where it talks about Jesus. Also compare Joel 3:5 to Acts 9:13. Compare Jeremiah 17:9 to Rev 2:23, etc.
So we have two kinds of scripture. One says that Jesus is human, the other says that Jesus is God. So what do we make out of these two? The obvious, that Jesus is the God, one person of the Godhead, who became man.
Lets think it in another way. We know that God loved people so much so that He sacrificed His own son for us. Now lets use another example. Suppose I love my brother and want to help Him. and the only way to help him is to give my own life for him. How does it seem to you that I would sacrifice instead of my own life, my son's life for Him to help Him? Why my son? And not myself? The most sensible thing is that I would sacrifice my own life for him, not somebody's else. That would be very egoistic. Somebody else to suffer for my intention to help somebody that I love? I think you can understand what I trying to say. So what did God do? He sacrificed Himself for us, one person out of the Godhead took on Him our nature, became a man and gave His life for us. So it is God's love that attracts people to Him. It wouldn't be love if He sacrificed somebody else, an innocent person's life, for his intention to save us. I hope I haven't done it so complicated to understand. GBU
Of Jesus Christ: Isaiah 9:6,7 (an Old Testament Prophecy); Micah 5:2 & John 1:1-14 (from everlasting); Matthew 1:22,23; Mark 2:5-7; John 8:56-58; John 16: 27,28; John 17:4,5; John 20:27,28; Philippians 2:5-7; Colossians 1:15-17; Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; Titus 3:13; Hebrews 1:1-3; Hebrews 1:8-10; 1 John 5:7; 1 John 5:20.
Of the Holy Spirit: Matthew 12:31; Luke 1:34,35; Luke 11:13; John 14:26; John 15:26; John 16:7-11; Acts 5:3; Acts 8:29; Acts 13:4; Romans 8:14; Romans 8:26,27; 1 Corinthians 2:10-14; 1 Corinthians 3:16; 1 Corinthians 6:19; 1 Corinthians 12:11; Ephesians 4:30; Hebrews 10:29; 2 Peter 1:21; 1 John 5:6.
The above are a few Scriptures that point to the deity of Jesus Christ & God's Spirit: all showing that they don't work independently from God, but have been sent out from God, from God's Being, to accomplish His Purposes in the world. And we know that Jesus, as the Word of God clothed with humanity, is the very expression of God to the world ( John 14:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; 1 John 4:2). Hope these will help you in your study of this very important doctrine. Blessings.
The Truth:
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, thetruth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me
John 8:32
And ye shall know thetruth, and thetruthshall make you free.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 by believing in this verse may change a life
Pt. 4
I wish to use this excerpt because it explains this topic so well and identifies so many Scripture verses.
Excerpted From: Got Questions:
What Does It Mean that All Sinned?
Romans attests that in Adam, all sinned. Theologically, this has been called "original sin" over the centuries. Original sin does not mean that we are guilty of Adam's sin, but that we inherit a sinfulness that is transmitted from Adam to all humans. No human is exempt from being sinful and corrupted.
Humans are driven to sin, enslaved by this sinfulness to continue to sin and to rebel against God, as these Scriptures say:
John 8:34
Jesus replied, "Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.'
2 Peter 2:19
They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves to depravity. For a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.
Titus 3:3
For at one time we too were foolish, disobedient, misled, and enslaved to all sorts of desires and pleasures-living in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.
Romans 6:16, 17
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Romans 6:20
For when ye were the slaves of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Romans 3:10-12 quotes Psalm 14:2-3 and Ps. 53: 1-3 saying that no one does what is good, not even one, no one understands the things of God (spiritual matters) because the god of this world has blinded us so that we cannot see the glory of Jesus in the gospel.
Paul also says that all humans are hostile to God, at enmity towards Him, His enemy, dead in sin, and enslaved to sin, we do not seek Him nor can we please God nor submit to His law. Elsewhere we are told that it is man's pride that keeps Him from hating his sin and submitting to God.
( Romans 2:1; 5:10: 3:10-18, 8:6-8; Eph.2:13; Ecc. 7:20; Ps. 14:2; 36:1-2; Is. 53:2)
See Pt. 5
Me being a member at West Angeles Cogic Church Cathedral Los Angeles California
Matthew 5:14 KJV
My Interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
" Jesus Christ is life on earth how to live John 8:12 KJV
God's word la has to be done to all the world.
Matthew 5:15 KJV
My Interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
" To believe in Jesus Christ laws, rule amd rules to get what you want. To believe when you die you will go to heaven and not he'll. 1 Corinthians 15:34 KJV Romans 10:10 KJV
Jesus Christ is power and effectual. Example House of Prayer Luke 19:46 KJV. Candles lighted by the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I believe and God has done for me Ephesians 6:15 KJV giving me peace.
Offered your heart to God. God wants you to be married.
Words you say and believe to actions to be and get reality.
Ways you can be and get what you want-reality. are listen to God's voice amd word to obey, follow, "do it" in speaking , actions, attention of communications.
Example liked by God and preferred by Christian Church named titled disciple.
Disciple definition-Showing the holy bible as life.
Matthew 5:16 KJV
My Interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
" Light shine can also be the revelation of Jesus Christ given to you Always performaning righteousness, holiness in actions "to do it" of God. To have faith, hope, love.". 1 John 1:2 KJV
I have working history of evangelism street outreach , open Leading Pulpit Prayer hour at Christian Church, Open Teaching Sunday School and Mid-Week bible study service showing Jesus Christ Is God Romans 10:9-10 KJV to all religions-Principle holy.
Word Spoken and Written by REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY
My understanding is this: From those passages, I see how the Jews & Jesus viewed who their Father was; and secondly, what were the works that resulted from that relationship to God their Father.
1. The Jews sought to kill Jesus because He both broke the Sabbath & called God His Father, making Himself equal with God. The Jews considered both Abraham and God as their Father, one in a biological sense, & the other (God) Whom they worshiped, obeyed & historically with them. However, Jesus showed that His relationship with God, as Father, was different: Jesus did what God required of Him & what God would have done Himself. The Jews believed that any type of work (i.e. what they established as work) was in contravention to God's Sabbath requirements. Jesus basically intimated that God did cease from His creation Work on the seventh day, but to do good for another, to render assistance to the injured, or even heal (as Jesus did) did not contravene the 4th Commandment. So the claim by Jesus that 'as His Father would have worked on the Sabbath to heal, so He had the authority to do likewise', spoke to the Jews that this was not just a claim to God's Fatherhood as they believed, but Jesus' claim that of equality (as Jesus claimed that He does all of God's Works (vv 19,20), He can raise the dead (v 21), in Judgement & in Honor (vv 22,23), etc.)
2. In the second passage, the question again arises of the genuineness of their relationship with God their Father. This matter came up when they asked Jesus, "Where is thy Father?" ( John 8:19). Their claim to be of Abraham's seed (v 33), but their works to kill Jesus proved that their father was the devil (v 44), since this was neither the works of Abraham nor God. So the Jews claim here that God was their Father was erroneous, as the relationship was not rooted in accepting Jesus' Works & Words from God, but rather doing the works of the Devil.
West Angeles Church Consecration Calendar
Me a member at West Angeles Cogic Church Cathedral Los Angeles California
John 8:36 KJV
My Interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
" Jesus Christ is Father and the Son same language you can understand is God for us to be heirs to all the world. To believe you can do and follow Jesus and become what your expected to be the truth of God Romans 8:2 KJV, 1 Corinthians 7:22 KJV. This is the life to live also exhibited. It is used in
discipleship- to show the Holy bible is life
saints/ citizens- free from sin Galatians 5:1 KJV, liability, set free from thraldom, ransom Mark 10:45 KJV, evil ,captivity of Satan.
Freedom from the laws, rules, thraldom that are not of God moral and obedience to it. You are titled to freedom to the house of God and his supper. A example of analogy used family of God Himself.
Ways you can be free from sin are to listen to God's voice and word to obey and follow " do it" (speaking, actions, attention of communications)
Examples of people in the holy bible that made themselves free in God you can read and follow are Romans 1:1, 2 Peter 1:1, Revelation 1:1 .
Word Spoken and Written by REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY
I am sure we all have thought about that, but it is hard to answer. We have a loving and just God wanting all to come to Him and be saved because He gave His only Son for the redemption of sins. Some may say no since the only way to the Father is through the Son but what about those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus?
All of us have a conscience and the knowledge of good and evil, some get to a point of no return and God gives them over to a reprobate mind, Romans 1:28. Some go so far into evil that their conscience is seared with a hot iron, 1 Timothy 4:2, they do not know good from evil. I do not know if you have ever met someone like that, but you can see cold darkness in their eyes.
If we read Romans 1-16 it is not the hearers of the law but the doers of the law for they, have it written in their heart and their conscience bears witness. Our conscience records all we have ever done or thought. I believe this is about those who have heard the gospel and those who did not have a chance to hear it.
Many take the great white throne judgment as for the lost only, but I believe this is for those who are not in the first resurrection, Revelation 20:4-6. My understanding is the great white throne judgment goes with Daniel 12:2 John 5:28-29 Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15.
As it says in Revelation 20:15 all that was not found in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. So, to me, this is all the rest of the dead Revelation 20:5 if some were not found, some are found in the Book of Life. Some who lived before Jesus first came and some after Jesus came who never heard the gospel, their conscience bearing witness, will be found in the Book of Life. As we see in John 8:9 Acts 24:16 Romans 9:1 2 Corinthians 1:12 1 Timothy 3:9 Hebrews 13:18.
This is my understanding.
God bless,
RLW
Q: Prayer of Jesus establishes his glory is from everlasting to everlasting. Is it not the Word was with God and it was transferable?
A: We have the verse you have in mind. " Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."( John 17:24) Glory of the Word is that it is sound as well as it is a sign. Thy word as a sign is what we consider here. "thy word is truth." This information is the seed planted by the Sower. Jesus in his prayer refers to the son of perdition. Judas Iscariot was also among the twelve of whom Jesus says, "Those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." The Law determined the everlasting covenant did not bar any man in the Man component. That the Scripture might be fulfilled" demonstrates it was Judas's choice whether to be sanctified by the word or not. It was written of him, "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."(Ps.41:9)
Judas in refusing Jesus refused God the Father. "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name" except for Judas who refused to be sanctified by the Word.
The covenant sets After our image" in order to establish the Father Son relationship. The Word was God establishes the truth. In refusing to be 'after our likeness' betrayed the Word made flesh. The sign tells it all. Judas Iscariot was like the nation of Israel. "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."( John 8:47) Satan is the father of lies, The same rule in 8:44 can be applied to Judas."(He) abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him." Glory of the Word is established by faith. "And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them." (17:10)
Q: "The Fulness of God is in the Man component but formatted as a testimony of Jesus Christ. What does does it intend to achieve by giving differing POV?"
A: Jesus as the Son of man testified, "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true." ( John 5:31) But as the Word that was with God he could assert, "Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself,yetmy record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go." ( John 8:14). The core value for this Revelation is the Fellowship of God with Man because of which as the v.1 states,"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, " and the angel serves as a witness. Moreover in signifying it through his angel unto his servant John, "Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ" (1:1-2) the law validates it as the truth.
In arranging this last book we can pinpoint the Law , the Son "after our image" and John "after our likeness" supplying their own POV so both heaven and the earth are equally pressed into service. Without setting the everlasting covenant as the rest frame the unseen world of the Father subsuming the world made to appear the testimony shall be severely damaged. Much of the visual motifs, vocabulary of day, night, seed ("the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself," separation of light, gathering of seas are derived from the covenant. Not to mention the significance of numbers the seven days pertain to the Law of the Spirit. God is a Spirit, the Son after "our image" serves as the inner man where the soul is the quickening aspect in the makeup of man. "The heart of the wicked is little worth.(Pr.10:20)