Discuss Luke 16 Page 3

Jim,

I didn't say I was of the Universalist religion, I said I'm a universalist because I believe that God will Save all His creatures at His appointed time. Furthermore, when you say things like "mainstream Christian religions" I'm glad I'm on the other side of them because, James 3:1; in other words preachers and teachers will receive a more strict Judgment. Thus, if a preacher or teacher gets something wrong AND teaches it, that misinterpretation will lead them into sin and that teacher will receive a portion of all those sins

Nothing "diminishes" Christ's Work, if a person doesn't understand something, does that misunderstanding somehow nullify that which is misunderstood? If a man doesn't understand what Christ did, it takes away NOTHING from Christ; that misunderstanding takes away from the one who misunderstands and for that we must pray.

I'm glad you brought up eternal punishment. Why does God punish? Answer: for correction. God doesn't abuse, He corrects. Hell is not Eternal, I've shown this but, I'll show you more! We should all know of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, Luke 16:19-31. We can see that the rich man (Jew) went to hell and begged Abraham to help him, but Abraham said that he couldn't! Now, add to this the other half of The Message, 1 Peter 3:19-20. You see, Christ went to MINISTER to souls in hell (prison) for He is a Savior, ALWAYS and FOREVER! And, He is still down their Saving souls. To "put it together" a Jew dies unbelieving of Christ, hell is the result. The Jew asks for help from Abraham and is denied. Now, a person who knew of Christ but never Fully gave in to Him (false Christian, maybe), is also in hell and now they are in torment and in a final desperate PLEA call out to Christ Jesus! Psalms 139:7-12. And He Saves in front of all in there, truthfully, do you think the people there will be calling to their idols? Or, will they Cry Out to Christ? Instant Conversion to The Truth! Think about it, He is a WONDERFUL GOD!!!!!!

Genealogy of Adam (2 of 2)

From the context 'And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him(4:15b) it is more making Cain as the one 'most likely to succeed',- and in this sense he fits with the shrewd servant in the Parable of Jesus. "For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. / I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.( Luke 16:8-9-NIV)."

The Spirit disposes of Cain and takes up a new narrative in vv.25-26. This leads us to the generations of Adam proper. This alternative Genealogy carries all who would press into the nation built entirely out of the people of light. Thus the entire narrative from the separation of light from darkness (Ge.1:4) is about two nations of light and of wrath.

The genealogy in ch.5 has this peculiar construction.

For example vv.3-4

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:/

And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:

In his own likeness prefaces Seth who is a double for the Son; he is called to be the heir of inheritance among children in light. The rest are consigned after the likeness of man.

Ps.78:5-8 (1 of 2)

Spirit Steadfast With God

"And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God."(v.8)

Here the Spirit is speaking of the Fellowship of God, a Spirit with Man. What holds them together which is what Law here signifies so testimony of Jacob is same as testimony of Jesus, which is the spirit of prophesy. In the prayer of Jesus speaks, 'Sanctify them (his disciples) with truth; thy word is truth." ( John 17:17)

this Word is the truth, the Law basis for the kingdom of God. The Word became flesh and in his human likeness he made manifest Truth as doable. "I am the truth." Spirit of Christ before the Advent is what the Holy Spirit refers here. Speaking of the nation of Israel their fathers were a stubborn and rebellious generation as they would do to the man sent from God. They denied him, In short we see the rebellious spirit of disobedience evolving generations after generations along with this part of the creation account. "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,"(Ge.2:4) God separated light from darkness which creates generations after generations of children of wrath whose spirit was not steadfast with God. So in the Psalm what do their fathers ask? "Behold, he smote the rock, that the waters gushed out, and the streams overflowed; can he give bread also? can he provide flesh for his people?"(78:20). Now they want prosperity! Children want toys that rattle and that come with colors and shapes. Similarly babes in Christ want jingle of material wealth. These are 'other man's riches' as Jesus would say. ( Luke 16:11-12)

David0921, we have already discussed at length, both correct Bible hermeneutics & the salvation of souls, both pre and post Cross. And as you've stated several times before, "we must compare Scripture with Scripture, etc, etc.".

Here we have Luke 16:19-31, a passage where there seems no other Scripture in the Bible that lends support/complements it, with such graphic detail. In your application of the principles you've suggested, what would you do with such a passage in Luke 16, when there is no other related teaching or other verses? The choices I see are: accept what Jesus spoke, as a one-off account of life after death pre-Cross; rewrite the verse to bring it into line with other verses that speak of the after-life; or, reject the passage altogether & read it as just another story/parable of Jesus that isn't intended to describe a real-life event.

To use your principle, that there 'must be other Scriptures relating to each other so as to form a belief/doctrine', I would reject that passage & never refer to it at all. I wouldn't even quote it as a parable, as it doesn't fulfil the definition of a parable. Therefore, not wanting to take such a drastic action, I'm forced to do something else with the passage; and that 'something' is to accept Jesus' Words as Truth & the events declared as real, since I won't accept that Jesus was intentionally deceptive when speaking about the fate of certain people for the purposes of a sharing a story/parable. But you're right about a 'divergence of doctrines by the churches'; just look at the LDS Church & 1 Corinthians 15:29: this is an example of a major departure from the Truth.

Hi David 0921. I agree with you that raising of Lazarus from the dead was "an actual historical event". And yes, not only from actual defined parables, but also from such real-life events as this one, there are lessons to be learned.

However, with the Luke 16:19-31 account I simply cannot accept it as a 'non-literal historical event'. You mention that "no one in the grave has eyes to see or a mouth to speak". It is true, that the deceased's physical eyes & mouths have long been destroyed in the grave, yet in the spiritual realm there still remains a consciousness, for the spirit of man cannot die. Now whether those three mentioned in Hades (under the OT economy) had physical members or not is not mentioned, but that a conversation took place. Now, if these figures in Hades were only presented as a story "to teach some aspect of the Gospel", then wouldn't it be very wrong of Jesus to name them & place them?

Look at any of the parables of Jesus (e.g. the Sower, the Tares, the Hid Treasure, the Ten Virgins, the Rich Fool, the Lost Sheep, etc.). Do any of them give the names or even the exact locations where the events took place? So a parable's definition is not just the Truth that Jesus wanted to impart to the people (a Truth that generally they could not perceive, therefore the need of 'story-telling'), but a parable had to meet this other criterion (of not naming people or places), or else it wasn't a parable. The Luke 16 account was an actual event told by Jesus as He claimed that Abraham & Lazarus were there in the Hades portion of comfort. If this were not true, then I would have to admit to Jesus being deceptive, when He could just as easily have shared a similar Truth without resorting to names of actual people & places. The lesson learned from this does conform to the message of a parable, but the actual event is real, unlike other of His parables.

Hi Jema. Just a couple of points to note from your understanding of those passages you quoted. You believe that Simon the Leper ( Matthew 26:6) might be the same person, now named Lazarus (in John 11:1-6). As I understand it, the account of the sickness, death & resurrection of Lazarus (brother of Mary & Martha) took place some time before the account of Simon the Leper. Jesus was on His second journey (after first leaving Jerusalem (in Winter): John 10:22, then onto Jordan: John 10:40) when news came to Him of Lazarus' sickness ( John 11:3). But Jesus continued to stay at Jordan ( John 11:6) & then went to Bethany to deceased Lazarus.

Now the account of Simon the Leper, also in Bethany, occurred very near to the Passover Feast ( Matthew 26:2). And we know this to be so, because after the woman's anointing of Jesus in Simon the Leper's home, Jesus' disciples were annoyed at the waste of this ointment, & Judas Iscariot then left them to put into effect his wicked act. And of course, Jesus then celebrates the Passover with His disciples at the appointed time. So the Lazarus (in John 11) & Simon the Leper (in Matthew 26) can't be the same person and of course it would have saddened Lazarus (& others) tremendously that he who died because of some sickness & was raised by Jesus, yet wasn't healed of his leprosy.

As well, the account of the rich man & (the other) Lazarus ( Luke 16:19-31) is understood to have happened after the Lazarus (of John 11) was raised to life, not before. A synopsis of the Gospels shows that after Jesus began His journey towards Bethany, He also ministered along the way ( Luke 13:22 to Luke 17:1-10). After this, Jesus arrives in Bethany to see the lifeless body of his friend.

Page 1.

Hi David0921. Just to touch on some of the points in your recent several comments.

Referring to Romans 3: Yes, it is a chapter of mankind's sinful condition, hence it was not written TO ALL mankind, but ABOUT ALL mankind. So, if all mankind lies in sin, how does God seek to remedy that disease? We know that it can only be through Christ, but where we differ is that you believe that Christ's Blood availed for those OT sinners while they were still alive. My belief: that Christ's Blood availed for them & us, ONLY after the payment for sin was completed.

Hades. 1 Corinthians 15:55 only speaks about 'death & the grave'. Looking at the Greek, for both those words, 'thanatos' is given & not Hades. So 'death & the grave' are understood as only that: 'death as confined to the grave'; no Hades here, a word which refers to an actual hell of spiritual confinement.

Then to the passages I shared, to which you wrote that 'none of them support OT believers going to a place called Hades at death'. For sure, most of those references just spoke about a very real place called Hades, to which I was drawing your attention to the fact that there is a name Hades. But when Jesus spoke of Abraham & Lazarus also being there, this is where "we (must) compare scripture with scripture using the principles that God lays down in His Word" (your quote). If we then disregard Luke 16:19-31 in its entirety, then we do great disservice to God's Word & our understanding of (for example, Hades) then becomes skewed. Onto Page 2.

David0921. I didn't say that Hebrews 11 spoke about Hades. I referred to Abraham (in Hebrews 11); that when he died, that he went to Hades ( Luke 16:19-31).

Here are some Scriptures for you that speak about Hell (Hades, as opposed to Gehenna or Tartarus): Matthew 11:23, Matthew 16:18; Luke 10:15, Luke 16:23; Acts 2:27,31; Revelation 1:18, Revelation 6:8, Revelation 20:13,14. Yes, Hades is a very real place where the dead pre-Cross went, both the righteous & unrighteous. And they had to go there when they died, for the Work of the Cross was not completed & their salvation was not secured. Only the shed Blood of Jesus could save them & us - they had to wait for it & their release from Hades.

The picture of mankind in Romans 3 (of Jew & Gentile) tells us that all are sinners & that circumcision or the Law gave no profit to the Jew. Only the "faith of Jesus Christ" & by His Redemptive Work can a sinner be justified by faith. I see nothing in this chapter about the "Salvation of OT Believers" - only of 'faith vs the law', for instruction to the Church in Rome, and by extension, believers beyond them in space & time.

23Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

24But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

25And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

Further insight. As Ephesians 1:6 states we are to be made acceptable in the beloved. As far as us "accepting" Christ; that is not Biblical as James 2:19 warns about God. Christ is more than Savior; He is Lord and Master; whether we acknowledge it or not there are only two alternatives ( Matthew 21:44). His Sheep hear His voice; the goats do not. ( John 10:27).

This "committing" of men it would seem would involve the Godhead living within someone and being sealed with the Spirit. It would involve chastising which Hebrews 12:8 in King James brings out pretty strongly in regard to those not in Christ who are "bastards."

Therefore Jesus had to do constant "weeding" out; and this would involve challenging statements; parables; and other means.

Jesus in Luke 16:15 warned that what was esteemed or honorable among men was an abomination to God. That is different than what Jesus Himself did when He was praised in Luke 2:52 for His growth in wisdom and stature in terms of how He "gained favor" at that time. That shows His humility in the 30 or so years; taking up the majority of His earthly life being submissive to His parents (unlike the Pharisees who found ways through their religious piety to disrespect parents for the sake of their own material gain).

Jesus loved His own so much that He made sure that He was the atoning sacrifice on the cross through His own volition; and death could not hold Him. (see John 10:18). It was a miracle in itself that He survived all the attempts on His life (including Gethsemene) through supernatural assistance so that He could make it to the cross to die at the set time and place. No one in scripture is said to be amazed at these acts

A day in the life of Jesus: General overview

If we look at the time after Jesus was in the wilderness and began His public ministry; we see what begins as a few healings and public teachings in His hometown appear to rapidly grow with travel to surrounding areas where He cast out devils and did many healings. As late as Matthew 16:20 Jesus told to His Disciples not to tell anyone He was the Christ. The same instruction is in the Gospels of Mark as well as Luke. Jesus would speak Parables; eventually as the ONLY method of explaining these hidden truths to the general public. ( Matthew 13:13). This shows how deep the concept of Predestination is shown 2 verses later in Matthew 13:15 when He explains because of hard hearts they will not be given information needed to be saved. We must come to Christ on His terms; and at His drawing or prompting ( John 6:37). This concept also shows that Christ never was seeking acclamation and didn't want to be set up as King on this earth before the time either; without understanding that He had to be the suffering Savior first. When a man asked Jesus to help him with unbelief ( Mark 9:24) we need to keep in mind that when on earth He was able to raise men from the dead; today we need to trust that He has power over death; hell and sin but we don't have any certainty that He will use a person to perform a healing through the power of the Spirit today. Nonetheless we should ask the Lord in prayer all things which we will apart from those things which are just for our own selfish desires; He ever intercedes for us according to God's will ( Heb. 7:25). Finally; Jesus knew that mere facts wouldn't save anyone; as evidenced in the rich man's pleas from Hades in Luke 16:31; and all other instances Jesus was harassed for healing on a Sabbath Day-they couldn't ever deny the miracles but accused Him of working on the Sabbath and blasphemy declaring that He was the "I AM" ( John 8:58).

Promises for believers "practical" considerations.

And the LORD shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the LORD thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them: ( Deuteronomy 28:13).

Some things in our Christian walk may seem like worldly wisdom; but when we live in a society that is decaying much like the Roman Empire did we see how God contrasts the rewards of those with a work ethic compared to those who don't. 2 Thessalonians 3:10 states that if we don't work we don't eat; and amazingly enough Lenin who started Communist rule in Russia had the same ethic along with some early labor leaders in this country. The verse I have quoted could certainly apply to those who do NOT subject themselves to "usury" which God's people were told not to do or do to each other (see Nehemiah 5:7-10; Leviticus 25:36). That process; of course leads to bondage for extended payment well beyond that borrowed; and has many people in slavery in the world today.

When push comes to shove; when we ask God to provide income He will provide what is necessary in His timing if we are physically and mentally up to the work. To save money should of course be for our families and future inheritance as well as to meet our own needs; but also the principle of saving a little at a time is beneficial if we need to help those in our midst; particularly in the Body of Christ.

There are many other admonitions in scripture for husbands; wives and children to follow; as well as single people and widows.

If we call ourselves "Christian" and are lacking in any of these disciplines and we find God blessing someone who is not a believer because they are following some of these principles we should not be surprised. God is impartial and blesses those He wishes to bless; curses those likewise according to His will. (see Luke 16:9-13 as to how to use "unrighteous mammon"

Fear of God

And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God. (PHillipians 1:28)."

And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath. ( Joshua 2:11).

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom ( Proverbs 9:10). Continuing with some ideas from my previous post; it seems that when it comes to supposed testimonies of hell; the fear of the Lord and a sense of it being His wrath as a great part of the terror is lost in accounts of suffering. The same thing makes us even more suspect with those testimonies about heaven; even Moses who knew God unlike any other man at the time ( Exodus 33:11) and spoke to Him as a friend still had fear when He appeared in all His glory ( Deut. 9:19). WE ALL SHOULD TAKE THIS ADMONITION SERIOUSLY as to fear and AWE of Him no matter how long we have been believers (sorry but I felt caps were needed here).

The assurance of salvation and the evident blessings being present on someone brings meaning to the first quote from Philippians; and the fact that we will return with Him ( Rev. 19:14) will strike fear in those whose eyes are now opened;

along with the fear of judgment to come.

The concept of our enemies also needs to be addressed along with our own enmity toward God that we now have reconciled.

Romans 11:28 shows how the unbeliving Jews were enemies in one sense; yet Paul wished that he himself could be accursed to save them ( Romans 9:3). We are to love our enemies; but not fraternize to gain reputation as the world does; for what is honorable among men is an abomination to God ( Luke 16:15 also could be "highly esteemed"). We should have no part fellowshipping with those who preach a false Gospel; and in no uncertain terms testify to the peril the unsaved is in apart from repentance.

The law was given by Moses but Grace and Truth came by Christ Jesus..... John 1:17

......The law and the Prophets were until John since that time the Kingdom of God is preached and all men press into it Luke 16:16

There was no baptism of the H.G. till Christ came....Thus no new birth till Christ came.....No new Creature till Christ came....The H.G. was not given till Christ was glorified.....Thus no kingdom or real Salvation from Sin....till the woman births the manchild...... Rev. 12:10....Simply b/c the book of life was sealed with 7 seals.....Jesus wrote this book of life with his own blood at Calvary.....The O.T. answers to the 1st wine the law.....But the N.T. answers to the 2 nd wine which was the best wine.....The gift of the H.G. the Kingdom that is gonna rule all nations .....The wedding was not till the 3 rd Day which is the last day when Jesus turned the water into wine....

.......The Kingdom of God is not in meat or drink but in Joy and Peace in the H.G. Romans 14:17.....The REAL H.G. is the Kingdom of God.

.......But the O.T. was a shadow of things to come.....Just as Abraham Isaac and Jacob were multiplied as the sands of the seas so the heavenly Godhead will be multiplied as the stars of heaven.....Thus there will be an Israel of God as the stars of heaven....The seed of Christ will produce a heavenly ppl that are gona be born in us.....Which answers to our new hearts and new spirits.....The H.G. The Children of Promise.....Flesh and blood are not the real Children of God ....Its only the Children of Promise that are counted for the good seed Roman 9:8 kjv.....Which are Spirits the H.G. Plural...I will pour out of my Spirit on all flesh....Thus the sower and his seed, his words as my words are SPIRIT and Life.....The field is the world...But this New Covenant is gonna make us Gods.....To whom the word came ( the living word) it made them Gods and the scriptures.....Thats y the Prophets were saying what manner of love has the father bestowed on us.

Christ's daily ministry: Prophecy

Prophecy was inextricably woven throughout all phases of Jesus' ministry. The Parables had hidden truths on His return; the fate of the Apostles and the future end time events were emphasized in Matthew 24; and His role of God in the flesh was brought to the attention of the Pharisees as well as to those who would worship Him recognizing His Divinity. In this regard; of course hell was discussed more than heaven including the real account of Lazarus and the rich (unnamed) man in hell.

It is truly remarkable to see how the miraculous signs and wonders were unable to wake anyone up to the truth who God didn't elect. Such is the case with the Parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Such is the case in Luke 16:31. In fact; when we consider the Crucifixion and Resurrection even clear evidences weren't enough to convince the Roman officials and those in power. This is abundantly clear from Matthew 28:13 where the soldiers were actually paid for "sleeping on the job" when such an offence by law would be a death penalty certainty. Men will go out of their way to lie; just as we saw with Lazarus being raised by Christ they saught to kill him and Christ because of their insane jealousy of His authority ( John 12:9-11).

In all of this we shouldn't avoid seeing the big picture. Christ in all of His ministry only did the Father's will ( John 8:28; 38; John 12:49). His exaltation; therefore and claims to Diviity were never self serving; but whowed God's plan. Somehow Christ would condescend to being a man; and have a life of sorrow and suffering ( Isaiah 53); then He would take on the sins of all His elect and be our atonement; dying on the cross and rising victorious. EXERCISING His authority would be after God grants it to Him ( John 28:18). He voluntarily emptied Himself of this authority so God could renew it (Phillipians 2:5-8).

Christ knew all men's hearts. We can say that all things were done in the Spirit by Him.

Hello Ashley. In my understanding, there are two aspects for those who belong to Jesus at their death: the mortal body goes into the ground & the immortal spirit returns to God ( Ecclesiastes 12:7). Some believe that both the spirit/soul & body remain together in the ground.

In Daniel 12:1,2, we read about the resurrection of the body in that final day, but there is no mention of the fate of the spirit of the deceased. Then in the account that Jesus gave of the wealthy man & poor Lazarus ( Luke 16:19-31), we note that Jesus spoke of three men: one in torment in hell's flames, one in relative peace & comfort in paradise, & with Abraham at his side. If any of these men just remained in the grave, Jesus would not have spoken of life beyond the grave soon after their deaths & such a life where either torment or peace can be experienced.

Even the Apostle Paul expressed his desire to leave this Earth ( Philippians 1:21-24) & to be with Christ, though he was required to continue to be used of God in the Gospel for a little longer. Paul didn't expect to lie in the grave, but his hope was that death would actually be welcome, for it meant that he would be with his Lord & Savior. And in passages such as Revelation 4:4; Revelation 5:5-10; Revelation 19:4; etc. we read about the Elders around God's Throne in Heaven. So I believe that at death our spirits return to God to join the host of Heaven worshiping the Lord of Glory. And when Jesus returns in the clouds to receive His beloved, those who have died in Christ will have their bodies re-formed to join their spirits, & those believers alive at that time will arise physically to be with the Lord forever. All this points to Jesus snatching away His people off the Earth before the awful Judgements of God come upon the unbelieving world. And then we all reign with Christ on the Earth in the Millennium period.

A day in the life of Christ..

I wish to put the focus of this study on the time before the last week of Christ's ministry leading to the cross; as His daily stresses and activities tend to be underplayed in comparison. I would be amiss not to discuss the Passion week; although I will need much prayer and planning for such a prodigious and solemn undertaking. A cursory statement here will suffice: Christ always had others in focus above His own needs; which was especially noticeable from the Last Supper on. This short week takes up a huge chunk of volume in the Gospels of His life; sort of like a zip file on a computer. We could spend a lifetime contemplating its meaning in regard to the unconditional love for us; undeserving sinners that held Him to that cross.

Putting that aside for now; suffice to say that the coming cross certainly was first and foremost as mentioned in the introduction; on the mind of Christ.

Let us begin our examination with Luke 16:12 to Luke 17:10. This was a very LONG day. Christ started with ALL NIGHT prayer before He chose the 12 Disciples. He was in that roundup to call them all; INCLUDING Judas Iscariot; who He knew was prophesied to betray Him (see verse 16). Immediately after that the crowds came to Christ and then He healed many (verse 17-19). Then He began the Beatitudes. Note that HE FACED HIS DISCIPLES when saying this discourse; which encompasses the rest of that chapter. The sermon had a specific message for them.

Chapter 7 begins with the story of the story of the Centurion. He showed great faith in understanding the authority of Christ and how a man in that position shouldn't be imposed on unnecessarily and that he was unworthy to have Christ in His house.

This gave great commendation from Christ. What we don't think about is the physical exhaustion that was somewhat relieved in not having to undertake the rest of the journey. We need to always look at Christ as perfect God and perfect man.

Hi S Spencer,

Part 1

Did not know it was Messiah the King in Dan. 9:25, whether that would matter, we know He is King.

I have enjoyed this discussion because of its importance not on salvation but for those who will be living when the end starts. This 70th week, if it is in the future or if it has been fulfilled in the past makes a world of difference in what people are expecting to happen.

If the 70th week is in the future there will be the 7-year pre, mid, or post-tribulation as taught, but if it has been fulfilled in the past that would make that false. What outcome would that have on those who are here?

Daniels people, the lost sheep of Israel, Matt. 10:5-6 did not reject Him, it was the corrupt rulers of Jerusalem and the temple, Luke 16:14-15 whose eyes were blinded and Jesus cried over it Luke 19:39-44. Many of them believed in Him but would not confess Him, John 12:42. Jesus the Messiah had to be cut off/sacrificed, Psalm 22:16-18 Isaiah 53:8-12 to atone for sins, Dan. 9:26.

If the priests and leaders of Jerusalem had received Jesus as their Messiah and had not conspired with the Romans to crucify Him, there would be no atonement sacrifice for the salvation of the Jews first and also to the Greek/Gentiles, it was God's plan.

Daniel 9:25-27 is a precise prediction of when Jesus would come and be anointed. In the scripture from Matthew to Acts 8:4-5, there is strong evidence without assumption of a 7-year amount of time from the anointing of Jesus the Messiah and His 3.5-year ministry/confirming the covenant to the lost sheep of Israel, Daniel's people.

His crucifixion in the middle and 3.5 more years the gospel was to only the lost sheep, Daniel's people by Jesus through His apostles, thousands were saved, then the death of Stephen, and the gospel going to the Gentiles, to make the Jews jealous, the branch broke off, but still offered to the Jews.

See Part 2

Page 2.

Secondly, a parable does not reveal people's names or places - for if they did, then it no longer is a parable (a simple story) but a true account with real people. So in the case of Luke 16:19-31 for example, people's names are given (Lazarus & Abraham), names which shouldn't appear in a parable; once names are given then the implication is that those people & events are real & not just a story with a message. If the story teller just used proper names or places (e.g. Lazarus & Abraham or anyone else in a parable) glibly, then he could justifiably said to be a liar, for those people did not actually exist in the story given.

Lastly, I believe in the eternal nature of the human spirit/soul - it can never be destroyed. So here then is a further hurdle we have to deal with, as to the destiny of the 'real' person, even if the body lies & disintegrates in the earth. Just thought to share these points at the outset so you know where I'm coming from. Blessings.

Page 2. David0921

Or, the account of those three in hades: Lazarus, the rich man & Abraham. Was Jesus deceiving His disciples by instilling fear in them about eternity that the rich man was in torment in hell ( Luke 16:23,24)?; & this was only the first judgement - he had to still stand before God in the resurrection readied to be cast into eternal fire. If the full consequences of man's sin & rejection of his only hope from God for his salvation is rejected, can man ever expect any other Mercy after death?

And finally, I think I remember your comments from a while back, relating to how we use the Scriptures & I referred to biblical hermeneutics. I apologize if that wasn't you, but your name seems to stick in my mind. The comment I believe was 'the Bible in its entirety must be our ultimate authority, comparing Scripture with Scripture'. I do acknowledge the Scriptures that you believe support only a physical death at the end, as punishment, but I also gave you others, which you can look at above in this thread. I'm using the same rule that you gave us; how do those Scriptures & those that others here have given you, apply/complement/fall short of what you believe? Because of your earnestness to consider all of Scripture, I would be very interested as to how you bring these seemingly opposing Scriptures to your understanding. Thank you & blessings.

Hi FaithfullCairaway

Firstly we start from the Old Testament.

Jesus has said the story of the rich man and Lazarus who lived in the Old Testament era, Luke 16:31.

They both (their souls) went down inside the earth but in different compartments. The poor man Lazarus went to a place called Abraham's bosom (which means together with Abraham and all the saints of the Old Testament) were he was comforted.. At the same time the rich man (the sinner) went to hell were he was tormented. Why didn't the righteous people like Lazarus go into Heaven? Because Jesus had not been sacrificed yet so no people had the right to enter Heaven. It is Jesus' sacrifice that actually erases people's sins (even those of people who strive to live a righteous life) and that had not had occured yet.

After Jesus was resurrected from the dead He took the souls of the righteous people from Abraham's bosom and carried them into Heaven. How do we know that? Because in Rev 6:9-11 we see the souls of righteous people in Heaven, under the altar (which means under Jesus' sacrifice) inside God's Temple in Heaven. The sinners remain in Hell.

At the end of this world, after the resurrection of all people who lived since the begining of mankind,the final Judgement will be done by God. The righteous will go to live with God in the new earth He is going to create for them living happily for ever and ever. And the sinners will be thrown into the lake of fire and will be tormented for ever. see Rev 21

Matthew 25:34, "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand (the righteous), Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

Matthew 25:41, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand (the sinners) Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

GBU

Hi Jema,

Jesus tells us below - that we should fear God as He can cast us into hell.

Luke 12:4-5

4And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Here a just a few of many verses stating that the unjust/unbeliever/unrepentant sinner will suffer for eternity in Hell.

Luke 16:22-25

Matt 25:41

Matt 3:12

Matt 25:46

Daniel 12:2

Mark 9:44-49

2 Thess 1:8-9

Rev 20:10

Rev 14:10-11

I know in the world we live in today, the popular belief among many preachers and Christians is that God is only good, kind, loving, and forgiving, and because of this - He will not throw anyone into Hell - to suffer for eternity. But that God will only leave us dead for eternity. This kind of teaching is false doctrine and does not conform to the bible, and Jesus own words. As Christian's we must always have a healthy fear of God.

Proverbs 1:7

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."

God tells us Hell is real!

Read and Believe!

Some clarity on hell testimonies

There seems to be; as with any other issue two extremes among the professing church today. Hell is taken as a figurative place; or not eternal in one extreme and the other end of the spectrum is a belief in every testimony of an afterlife experience on such matters that can be found without a critical examination of the message being delivered (is it scriptural?); the fruit of the life of such an individual (are they clearly out for self promotion and greedy gain); or is it something that should be considered taken seriously?

The first issue should; along with other core doctrines that have been assumed up until recently to be foundational for us to be a Christian not even have to be discussed; in my opinion. We can't naively believe that most churches in even what were solid doctrinally a generation ago have anything correct now; I am not even sure which pole was taken but apparently belief in Christ being God in the flesh; being the only way to salvation; and other issues have succumbed to today's popular agendas. I'd place a bet that most who don't believe in a literal hell somehow still hold out hope for a real; eternal heaven (as misguided as their view of what it is like and such may be).

On the other side; I will state if I can on this site the testimony of Bill Weise. He himself says that he isn't concerned about us believing him but the Word; and in the speaking engagement I saw him in he must have had two or three hundred scriptures memorized from the O.T. and N.T. on the subject. There may be others like this; but I am not aware of them.

A common thing is lack of reverential fear of the Lord in these testimonies; only clinging on to Him when rescued from what they claim was hell. We see assumptions that go against verses such as Luke 16:31 where we think that those even if they had a real NDE or out of body experience that it would convince someone to repent. 2 Tim. 2:25 says the Lord grants repentance

Luke 12:3 and Matthew 12:36 are eye opening; as we are to give account for everything said and nothing is secret to God.

I would like to say that I don't do any grumbling or complaining; but alas then I would be lying. Thankfully anything but blasphemy against the Spirit can be forgiven. As Jesus pointed out to the self-righteous Pharisees; these bad fruits come from within. And 2 Peter 2:21 makes it clear that it is better not to have known the truth than to become reprobate. The blood of Christ is our only hope as Jeremiah 17:9 shows how sick the heart is.

There are Post Millennialists who dispute this; but I don't believe anyone from the church age who is a believer will be at the Great White Throne Judgment. I DO have the opinion that since the verse indicates that those who aren't in the Book of Life are going to the lake of fire; there is room for those who physically survive the Millennial period to go through that as saved people and hence be translated into heaven without dying.

In any event; 1 Corinthians 3:15 indicates that one can make it into heaven and suffer loss. That would be analogous to losing rewards as Revelation 3:11 warns. Paul indicates how we run for the prize. Only a few gain great rewards; as would be indicated by those making 100 fold as opposed to 30 fold returns or others ( Mark 4:20). We should not be confined to just the saved and lost divisions when scripture gives us admonitions for certain crowns that those who persevere; are martyred or are pastors as well as other situations are given for faithfulness.

Matthew 6:19-21 shows us that our treasure is to be in heaven. And that means that He must trust us with earthly riches as well ( Luke 16:10-12) as a test; a prerequisite for heavenly riches. Our brothers in Christ that we support in the ministry will be able to enjoy the harvest with us (see John 4:37). That and personal witnessing are components of fulfilling the Great Commission to finish well.

Brothers and sisters: Beyond Armageddon into eternity

Revelation 19 makes it clear that we shall follow Christ in heavenly armies upon His return in verse 14. All of our garments will be white suggesting purity; finally praise God our sins that often beset us will be removed; as well as our vile bodies transformed to ones befitting eternity in a glorified state ( 1 Cor. 15:40-50).

It appears that David Himself will rule with Christ in the Millennial period as a king ( Hosea 3:5). We also are "kings and priests" as seen in Revelation 1:6; 5:10 as well as 1 Peter 2:9 and likely elsewhere. Those who are faithful in few things will rule over many ( Luke 16:10); and that is in term of actual cities (See Matthew 25:21 and surrounding verses). Exactly how this will happen may not be fully known until that time; and being that some are diehard Postmillenials I certainly don't want to split hairs and be removed from posting here over this issue. How this affects the eternal reign after the 1000 years with God Himself coming to earth with the heavenly Jerusalem remains to be seen as well.

In the more immediate future; if we take Revelation in what appears to be chronological with the things "immediately after" ( Rev. 4:1) it would appear that we are represented before the 1st Seal as the "kings and priests" along with the 24 elders representing what most believe are the 12 Patriarchs and 12 Apostles. Physically present we would likely take an active part in the incense of the prayers of the saints as we see in 5:8 and 8:4 with the seal and trumpet judgments. We shall only behold the destruction of the wicked from afar ( Psalm 91:8 loosely translated).

Since we are already seated in heavenly places ( Eph. 2:6) we have much more going on than what we see now with our eyes.

May our conversation concerning all the evils of the world and our loathing of it be focused on the solution rather than the problem; namely prayer in the Spirit not that of Eccles. 7:10

The Resurrection Day

John 10:18 shows us that Christ had the power to give up and take life back again. Starting at the statement at His death "it is finished" ( John 19:30) the atonement was complete at the same moment. The comment from the fellow prisoner (the one who repented) at the cross recieved a response just prior to that event where Christ assured him "today you shall be with me in paradise" ( Luke 23:43). This shows that sheol which at the time was the abode of all the dead (see state of Lazarus vs the rich man in the parable of Luke 16:19-31). Jesus came to set the captives free ( Ephesians 4:7-10) also alluded to in several other passages that could also refer to those captive in sin still on earth. He preached to the spirits in prison ( 1 Peter 3:19) which were either the demons or Nephilim and their offspring which were in the abyss before their time; or all the lost. Those who were His own were set free; their souls went to heaven and many appeared after His Resurrection ( Matt. 27:52-53). Thus; after this time only wicked in the torment part of hell still exist down there.

Christ; of course was the "first of the firstfruits" ( 1 Cor. 15:20). There will be the following afterwards; those who came out of their graves at that time as I stated above; then those at His appearing (i.e. Rapture); then those at His coming (2nd Coming). The firstfruits continue until the 144,000 which is a sort of gleaning of Israel ahead of the main harvest the countless multitude coming out of the Great Tribulation. ( Rev. 7:9).

What is most sobering is that Christ still bears marks on His body ( Luke 24:39); apparently the only one who is resurrected with such scars reminding us of his earthly suffering and existance. Hence; God did not allow His holy one to remain in sheol or see decay ( Psalm 16:10). He was the perfect; unblemished Lamb of God who we shall forever worship and adore.

Agape; Happy Resurrection Sunday.

Rich P

TammyC:

The last day has been going on for 2000 years, Paul understood he was living in the last day.

The word of God is written to each person; as you study and read, it's YOU, his church, the SPIRIT of Christ is speaking to, not a collective BODY, your the body of Christ.

Revelation is the revealing of Jesus Christ TO YOU; his church, his bride.

That (Christ) WHICH IS, and WAS, and WILL BE.

The words of Revelation mean the same TO YOU as it did to the person reading them 1900 years ago.

The words in Revelation are; ALSO, prophecies found in Mosses and the Prophets, Revelation is just a second witness.

In Matthew Jesus said, to be AWARE of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel

The prophecy says the messiah will be CUT OFF in the middle of the week, and the abomination that maketh desolate SET UP, his happened at his death and resurrection.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be TAKEN AWAY (Christ become the once for all sacrifice) and the abomination that maketh desolate SET UP, shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days,

This 1290 days is the same 3 1/2 years spoken of in Revelation, the second witness.

The BEAST with seven heads and ten horns is also spoken of in Daniel.

Daniel 7:23 ...the FORTH BEAST shall be the forth (and last) kingdom on earth ....

The kingdom of Babylon (1st), the Medes and Persians (2nd), the kingdom of Grecia (3rd) and the KINGDOM OF GOD the 4th BEAST.

Luke 16:16 the law and prophets were until John, since that time the kingdom of God is preached ....

The forth BEAST: the kingdom of God has been on earth since John and will never cease to be, WHICH IS, and WAS and WILL BE: the last day, the sixth day in Genesis when man was CREATED by his resurrection with CHRIST.

God bless you.

I hope this helps

2 Corinthians 5:8

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

And, read Luke 16:19-31 KJV, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. When a person dies, they are in "heaven" so to speak, but there is a gulf, between those who believe and those who did not Luke 16:26. In 1 Thessalonians 4 when it says:

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

By saying "will God bring with him", it means they are already in heaven, and when God returns, He'll bring the saints with Him.

Living in the Spirit

If we live in the Spirit we cease to gratify the desires of the flesh. ( Galatians 5:16). We need to realize several things in regard to that subject. First of all the flesh signifies all those things which natural man desires in a self centered manner. God created all things for our enjoyment ( 1 Tim. 6:17); and this includes eating and drinking which Christ Himself did when on earth (but always took the necessary time for fasting and prayer). God created marriage as a covenant between a man and woman when we follow His plan; all other ways of fulfilling such desires are perversions in regard to fulfilling natural desires our own way and leaving God out of the picture.

What is necessary is to understand that if we seek His Kingdom first then He shall grant us the desires of our heart. ( Matt. 6:33). When we are reborn into Christ then His desires become our desires; although we see through a glass darkly ( 1 Cor. 13:12). All good things come from the father of lights; God above ( James 1:5). We should be growing in our walk in maturity and wisdom understanding the value of trusting in God; obeying His will and giving time for prayer; Bible study and fellowship.

He certainly doesn't need our help in our worldly accomplishments with the plans He has for us; although we should certainly avail ourselves to utilize all the natural gifts as well as spiritual ones He has given us for His glory. He does have plans for us to prosper ( Jeremiah 29:11). These involve ultimately spiritual treasure in heaven ( Matt. 6:20); but certainly it applies to our faithfulness with earthly wealth as well ( Luke 16:11). We should seek to be able to do all things to build up His Kingdom and minister to the Body of Christ whether with finances or service.

We should learn to recognize the tug of the Spirit in our interactions whether with the saints or others that may indeed be destined to be His children. Psalm 119:105 shows He illuminates our paths.

Hi Cheryl.

I will share my view.

In Luke 1:16-17 an Angel tells Johns father, "Zacharias". That he would have a son And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

John the baptist had a great crowd and devout followers and he preached the coming of their expected Messiah and King.

The pressing multitudes that had followed John continued to follow Jesus' ( Luke 5:15, Luke 12:1).

In the context of this chapter we have Jesus authenticating John's ministry.

SO THAT BRINGS US TO THE TEXT.

Mathew 11:12.

And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Let's look at the word violence in this text.

Greek:

Transliteration: biaz

Pronunciation: bee-ad'-zo

Definition: From G970; to force that is (reflexively) to crowd oneself (into) or (passively) TO BE SEIZED: - PRESS SUFFER VIOLENCE

The pressing multitudes that had followed John continued to follow Jesus' ( Luke 5:15, Luke 12:1).

This is what Jesus is saying "The kingdom of God suffers violence." Pointing to the huge crowds that followed John and that were now following Him, Jesus likens them to an invading army surrounding a city to capture it.

Look at Luke's account.

Luke 16:16.

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

( From the days of John the Baptist until now," there has been an extraordinary rush of people pressing in from all sides eager to hear the gospel that they resembled an army trying to besiege a city.)

Matthew 11:14 he says;

"And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come."

I hope this helps.

God bless.

Hey Jesse,

Thanks for your reply. You have a better knowledge of Greek than I do, what I see is today, the Greek word , smeron, meaning today, this day, this very day. I think the word today is correct it is how we read the sentence and how it fits with what the thief said and when will he be in paradise, and if paradise is part of Hades or the new earth when it is all fulfilled.

Heb. 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: What do we understand the meaning to die/death? Platonism says it is a separation of the soul from the body and the souls go to Hades. If the soul is immortal what is appointed to die?

Luke 16:19-31. Was this a real story or is this a parable He told to people mainly the Pharisees? If we take it as reality, they were judged at death because Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom, and the rich man went to a fiery place of torture. Does scripture support that? Dan. 12:2 Matt. 25:31-34 John 5:28-29 Rev. 20:11-15.

The rich man was aware of where he was and talking and seems they have a body, asking for Lazarus to wet his finger and cool his tongue. Does scripture say we are awake in death? Job 14:10-12 Ecc. 9:5-6. The context of this chapter is the love of money, and stewardship, Jesus was addressing this to the Pharisees, "No servant can serve two masters".

Eph. 4 I know some understand this to mean that when Jesus ascended into heaven, he led a host of captives who ascended into heaven with him. But in Acts 2:29-34 David is still in his grave and has not ascended, would David be left? John 3:13. Does this show Jesus ascended alone?

I will leave it there, I guess it comes down to if we believe our soul is immortal which influences how we understand the scripture. Just some other thoughts, like you said there are probably more understandings. Thanks again.

God bless,

RLW