Revelation
King James Version (KJV)
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In Daniel 12:1,2, we read about the resurrection of the body in that final day, but there is no mention of the fate of the spirit of the deceased. Then in the account that Jesus gave of the wealthy man & poor Lazarus ( Luke 16:19-31), we note that Jesus spoke of three men: one in torment in hell's flames, one in relative peace & comfort in paradise, & with Abraham at his side. If any of these men just remained in the grave, Jesus would not have spoken of life beyond the grave soon after their deaths & such a life where either torment or peace can be experienced.
Even the Apostle Paul expressed his desire to leave this Earth ( Philippians 1:21-24) & to be with Christ, though he was required to continue to be used of God in the Gospel for a little longer. Paul didn't expect to lie in the grave, but his hope was that death would actually be welcome, for it meant that he would be with his Lord & Savior. And in passages such as Revelation 4:4; Revelation 5:5-10; Revelation 19:4; etc. we read about the Elders around God's Throne in Heaven. So I believe that at death our spirits return to God to join the host of Heaven worshiping the Lord of Glory. And when Jesus returns in the clouds to receive His beloved, those who have died in Christ will have their bodies re-formed to join their spirits, & those believers alive at that time will arise physically to be with the Lord forever. All this points to Jesus snatching away His people off the Earth before the awful Judgements of God come upon the unbelieving world. And then we all reign with Christ on the Earth in the Millennium period.
Revelation 4:1
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a Trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, ...
Revelation 11:15 to 18KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders(will be they the authors of the OT???), which sat before GOD on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped GOD,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord GOD Almighty -JESUS- , which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the NATIONS were (will be) angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged( Daniel 7:26-27), and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest DESTROY them which destroy the earth.
In my last post; I talked about Peter. He was revealed who Christ was which could only have come from the Father ( Matt. 16:17).
The HOLINESS of God is talked about frequently; perhaps easiest remembered in Revelation 4:8-11 (also found in Isaiah 6:3).
When the Bible describes judgment; and hell viewed on earth such as in Isaiah 66 there is no appreciation of the wicked for His Holiness or any other attributes. Our life as believers is hidden in Christ ( Colossians 3:3) and the verse also talks about how we must be "crucified with Christ". Those who believe have truly "passed from death to life" ( John 5:24 with further insights in 1 John as well). So that is the difference; we have either the eternal state of our spiritual condition to be in our fallen sin which is totally blind to His glory and only focused on self; or we are new creations which are now able to glorify God in heaven (and we start now by being seated in heavenly places ( Eph. 2:6). Therefore we begin now; to rule and reign with Him in a sense-it is a done deal as Romans 8:30; and Ephesians 1:13 states.
Isaiah 53:11 states that He will see the travail of His soul and be satisfied; quoting a verse from an entire CHAPTER on Christ which is the famous chapter Jews like to ignore because of clear Messianic descriptions matching that of Christ. His satisfaction therefore will be in ruling and reigning WITH us; with the sons of glory (sort of combining Hebrews 2:10 with the concept of Romans 8:17.) He did it to please the Father first and foremost; but also of course has been given all authority on heaven and earth. ( Matt. 28:18). It is strange to conceive ourselves in a similar way; but nonetheless being part of the firstfruits we also suffer for a time then are glorified and rewarded ( 1 Peter 5:10).
Obviously; as we look to the concept of varying amounts of rewards for either the wicked (punishment) we have the same idea in regard to the saved. ( 1 Cor. 3:15). more in part3
1 Corinthians 15:33,34
Acts 15:28,29; Exodus 26:1
POINT: Revelation 22:6-9;
Revelation 4:11
Travels is over for the week!
It's always tough for me to keep up because all my replies and posts are off my cellphone.
I was looking at how the scripture would look using the Greek as you said. "Oudeis , no one"
Here it goes from verses 2-4.
And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
And no one in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
And I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
You see it doesn't change nothing using the Greek word
"Oudeis" translated no one.
And I agree John was in the spirit, but John saw, and was shown visions all throughout Revelation.
And he sought the redeemer which had to be a man in particular locations and one was Heaven.
This took place around the throne!
Revelation 4:1-2. "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
And immediately I was in the spirit; and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
John describes what he saw and what he heard in a particular place.
I believe that we shall also reign on earth and that shouldn't void our access to Heaven.
Jesus is able to freely go to and from and I believe we will also because in this regard we shall be like him. 1 John 3:2.
Also see Romans 8:16-21.
We're joint heirs with Christ!!
God bless.
John was told to Write the things which thou hast seen, (The pre-incarnate Christ.)
and the things which are, (Church things. Then and now)
and the things which shall be hereafter; (The rest of the book)
By the time we get to Revelation 4:1 There's no more mention of the Church. So the overcoming has been done before the Tribulation.
And the overcoming is done by the Holyspirit. There is nothing you and I can do to present ourselves righteous before God. It's him that keeps us.
Concerning Revelation 2:10
It has already past. 10 days refers to 10 periods under 10 Roman Imperors.
The "ten days" in Revelation 2:10 refers to ten persecutions that began with Nero and ended with Diocletian at the end of the third century.
The early Church was persecuted and under tribulation. NOT THE GREAT TRIBULATION.
Jimbob I see you Brother Chris and others have covered much of this topic. I'm not sure what you guys covered,
I haven't had the chance to read much of it.
I believe we will have to agree to disagree on this topic.
However I would love to discuss soteriology with you.
I don't believe the eschatology views have anything to do with whether one is saved or not.
May I ask How do you feel about that?
Are we saved by grace?
Works "of the Law"?
Both? ect..
Many of these characteristics and descriptions are descriptions of Christ from Chapter 1.
Many have thought, especially Jehovah's Witnesses, because it says a mighty angel, that Jesus is not God, and that He's just an angel.
But there's some differences here taken with this small scroll. What is this small scroll? It is the property deed to the earth.
In the first line it says, and I saw another mighty angel. The word another, and there's two different words in the Greek text for another, another of the same kind, or another of a different kind.
This is another of the same kind, making reference to Revelation 8:3, another mighty angel.
There are only two angels in the bible that are called mighty angels. Back in the book of Daniel Chapters 7 through 12, we have Gabriel, and we have Michael.
Michael is the archangel. He's the head angel and he usually has to do with the business of the nation Israel. And he's constantly at war with Satan concerning the things of Israel.
And Gabriel is a messenger. We especially see him at the announcement of the birth of Christ.
So this has to be one or the other, either Michael, or Gabriel, that has come down from heaven, clothed in a cloud and a rainbow about his head. And all of this tells us that he comes in the authority of Christ. He had a rainbow upon his head, his face as the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire, and he had this small book.
As for the thunders, I believe it is making reference to Gods voice coming down from heaven. Revelation 4:5 and Psalm 18:13 causes me to believe that these thunders are the voice of God.
Hope this helps!
It would seem that those who are kings and priests in Rev. 5:9-10 are those of the church and also those who are rewarded and receive crowns and are raptured. This is not; in my opinion all those confessing Christ at this time as some aren't truly saved and others may be left behind. That is controversial but even if they are raptured or martyred; the Tribulation saints will be overcomers and saved but some according to 1 Cor. 3:15 get in by the "skin of their teeth" and suffer loss. There are also specific crowns for various rewards; such as for martyrs; those patiently waiting for His coming; pastor/elder; etc.
The exhortation of Revelation 3:11 is something I mention frequently. We can "lose a reward to another". The opposite may hold true as well; should we be teachable and desire to grow in the Lord discipled by more mature believers we may be able to gain heavenly rewards. We also gain treasures in heaven through investing our time; talents and monies to those truly serving the Lord.
Anyway; have a blessed Sunday of worship..
Agape. Rich P
We learn a lot about the 24 elders Revelation 5:9-10.
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast REDEEMED US TO GOD BY THY BLOOD out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
And hast made us unto our God KINGS AND PRIESTS: and we shall REIGN ON THE EARTH.
1) We know they were redeemed.
2) They were made Kings and priests.
3) They shall reign on earth.
I believe this represents the Church.
Here's why.
They were redeemed out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. Ephesians 1:7.
They were made kings and Priests.
1st Peter 1:9.
These kings and Priests shall reign on earth.
Revelation 1:5-6.
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
I hope this helps.
God bless.
Hopefully this is helpful
Hebrews 1:13,14,
Hopefully these are helpful
Revelation Chapter 1 tells us that the seven Spirits was the sevenfold Spirit of God. Revelation 4:5, along with Revelation 5:6 tells us that the sevenfold Spirit of God represent His eyes, the all- knowing and the all-seeing God.
Also, in Zechariah 4:10, it tells us that the seven Spirits are the seven eyes of God.
He that has the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars, from Verses 4 and 16 of Chapter 1.
Revelation 4:1 is the verse that's used by those who believe that the believers will be raptured prior to the Tribulation Period, because number 1, the door had been opened, and number two, a trumpet was talking to him (John).
It's the same as Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4:13, I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that you sorrow not, as others which have no hope.
He had just said in this chapter that the trump of God would sound. It would be a great shout, and the trump of God would sound. And so here is the trumpet talking to John saying come up here.
And those who hold the Pre-Trib. position see that as equivalent to the rapture of the church that is happening.
And from here on, John will see everything from heaven, and the church will no longer be on the earth, but the multitudes will be in heaven.
And many believe that's an indication, among other scriptures, especially 1 Thessalonians Chapter 5 where it gives us the Tribulation Period, and he says this is for the wrath of God, and we (believers) have not been chosen for the wrath of God.
It tells us that out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices:
This will be the expression of God's judgment whenever He judges. We see it throughout the book of Revelation. There will be lightnings and thunderings and sounds coming out from the throne.
It says, and there were seven lamps of fire before the throne, which are the (seven spirits of God).
We see these seven spirits back in Revelation 1:4. And if we follow it through in Chapter 4, along with Revelation 5:6, it tells us that these seven spirits of God are the seven eyes of God going throughout the world.
It is the seven fold complete ministry of the Holy Spirit held by both the Jews, and of course the scripture itself teaches that.
In Zechariah Chapters 4 and 10, it also tells us that the seven lamps are the seven eyes of the Lord, the all-seeing one.
So before the throne, the seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God (The 7 eyes of God).
In Revelation 5:6, we have a Lamb that had been standing there as it had been slain, having seven horns and (seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God), sent forth into all the earth.
Daniel Chapter 7 tells us that the horns represent power and authority. And of course the eyes, again, Zechariah tells us that the Messiah has seven eyes. I don't believe it is talking about the literal eyeball.
The word seven in scripture means complete. It means that He (God) is in complete authority, and He sees everything fully and completely.
Hope this helps!
Amen, all praise, glory, and honor to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!!!
"Four-and-twenty seats around the throne, were filled with four-and-twenty elders, representing, probably, the whole church of God. Their sitting denotes honour, rest, and satisfaction; their sitting about the throne signifies nearness to God, the sight and enjoyment they have of him. They were clothed in white raiment; the imputed righteousness of the saints and their holiness: they had on their heads crowns of gold, signifying the glory they have with him."
I just wanted to share my view on the seven Churches in Revelation ch 2 and 3.
1st. They all were local Churches.
The Revelation (Unveiling) of Jesus Christ. These letters also is to and applies to the complete Church Era.
In ch 1 vs19 we have "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
I believe that is what John did.
That is what he wrote in
Revelation 1:12-17.
In Revelation 2 and 3 he wrote about the things which are.
(What's existing) "Church Era, throughout history "
( And the things which shall be hereafter; )
Starts with Revelation 4:1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."
( And it carries on throughout the rest of the book. )
I also believe the phrase "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." suggest this is also written to us.
( He that hath an ear! )
Also "let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the CHURCHES." ( Plural ) suggest that all seven letters apply to all seven Churches, It's admonitory. All seven apply to all of us. And the letters lay out the history of the Church. ( In order.)
God bless.
Revelation 4:5 also discusses the seven Spirits of God along with Revelation 5:6. Apparently; Isaiah 11:2 is a commonly referred to cross reference; although technically it involves 6 ministries under the Lord Himself (as the 7th); it does fit in a sort of Menorah picture of how the Spirit operates in the entire corporate Body. We see a further description in Zechariah 4:2-3 of this source (apparently now in heaven); and the two prophets that tap into this power as witnesses throughout the earth in the end times. That can be studied further in Revelation 11.
It would seem that the seven spiritual gifts also would be in play here as to the emphasis given to a given church. This would be seen in Romans 12:6-8. In general; it seems that there are certain strengths and weaknesses that are commonplace depending on what gifts we have and that could factor into the overall situation as to the state of a congregation; what trials a particular congregation may or may not be called to suffer; doctrinal errors that creep in; etc. It is important to see the interdependence here so that the church isn't imbalanced
( 1 Cor. 12:14-16). In fact; we also see seven gifts listed in 1 Corinthians 12:8-11. It is important to differentiate between the fruit of the Spirit (love; joy; peace; longsuffering; etc) in Galatians 5:22-22 which characterizes the lives of all true believers and the particular ministries they have. We can't have one without the other. The common thread; of course is the love of God and brethren as seen in John 13:34-35; and reflected in 1 Corinthians 13 (entire chapter). Apparently; gifts can operate even with immature saints just as some could believe at one time without understanding the indwelling Holy Spirit such in Acts 19:1-4.
In conclusion; God distributes as He will or "severally" ( 1 Cor. 12:11). In obedience because we love Christ ( John 14:15) we have the right attitude to grow.
If half of the elders are from Old Testament and they are represantatives of saved people in the OT times, then this means that OT saints will take part in the rapture as well There is a debate about that (Verses Rev 5:9-10 do not hide anyhting in greek). One question though. When you say whole church do you mean people from OT as well? Because I think when we say church we mean the NT saints only. GBU