Romans
King James Version (KJV)
Discuss Romans 2 Page 2
Viewing page: 2 of 17
< Previous Discussion Page Next Discussion Page >
Do you have a Bible comment or question?
Posting comments is currently unavailable due to high demand on the server.
Please check back in an hour or more. Thank you for your patience!
"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."
Blessings
"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."
Blessings
Ephesians 3:6 "That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"
Romans 2:28 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:"
Romans 2:29 "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
Acts 9:15"But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:"
Blessings
Blessings
"To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:"
Romans 2:8
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,"
Romans 2:9
"Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;"
Romans 2:10
"But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:"
Blessings
However, I would seek your impressions or understanding of the passage you quoted ( Romans 2:1-4) and also 1 Corinthians 5:9-13. I believe the latter one commands the Church to judge anyone who is "called a brother" & deal with him for his sins, by separation from him and excommunication. Yet, Romans 2:1-4 seems to denounce any judgement, knowing that the same sins are committed and we all stand under God's Judgement.
So, the problem I see here is, to whom is the apostle referring to in Romans? In chapter 1, he clearly is referring to the unsaved Gentiles ( Romans 1:18-32), showing their idolatry, lusts, & many sins. But when the apostle continues on in chapter 2, it now seems that the unsaved Jew is being spoken of, as those who are now hypocrites, judging others when their own sins are exposed. His use of "O Man, whosoever thou art that judgest" (v1) and "Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law" (v17), indicates that Paul is now speaking to/about the unsaved Jew, who are no different to the Gentile, in their hypocrisy & unjust judgement.
The point I'm making here is, given those Scripture portions for consideration, I wonder what the limitations of the Church or even an individual believer are in this matter of judgement. Clearly, the elders have to continually make judgements against others (whether they choose to do so by identifying them, counseling, warning, or expulsion), and we too as individual believers need to recognize sinning wayward congregants, therefore making some type of judgement against them (whether done internally in our hearts or not). Maybe judgement is allowed after all, yet it must always be a 'righteous judgement', without hypocrisy & knowing that we still have to answer to the Lord for our thoughts, words & actions.
I have never seen a vision. But my wife has seen a few.
In one of those visions she was standing infront of God's throne to be judged for her life. It was not her turn yet. Before her another person was judged. Both, my wife and that other person, had a paper in their hands written on it all the sins and wrong doings of their lives. That other person was a person known to my wife. As that other person, a woman also, was judged my wife was thinking of that other person "she has done this and that, and that ...". Any time my wife thought that that other woman did this wrong thing the same accusation was appearing on her paper too. So she thought it was better for her not to think of what wrong that other woman had done so that the same accusation wouldn't appear on her paper too.
Conclusion. God will be strict to us if we are srtict to our people. God will be merciful if we are merciful to others.
Romans 2:1-4
"1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?"
Don't we all do more or less the same sins? So why do we judge our brothers for the same things we also do?
And if we don't do the same sins still we are not allowed to judge others. Because without God's grace we are all sinners. Maybe more, maybe less, but still sinners. And since we are all saved through God's grace there is nothing to boast about ourselves comparing ourselves to our brothers. Remember the Pharisee and the publican.
Part 2
The Bible consistently indicates that souls can die and cease to exist. For example, Matthew 10:28, it mentions that the soul can be destroyed, implying it is not immortal. The Greek word translated as soul is psuche, which has several meanings, including the vital breath, the breath of life, the human soul, the soul as the seat of affections and will, consciousness, a human person. Essentially, it includes who we are, and is inseparable.
This does not happen until we are resurrected, when Jesus Christ returns, it is a gift of God, Romans 2:5-7. Immortality is not given until the resurrection from the dead, only then will we be absent from this flesh and blood body and present with the Lord, Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 20:1-6. The Bible never describes the soul of man as immortal or eternal. We die and are buried mortal, dead in corruption, and we will be raised incorruptible, 1 Corinthians 15:42-44. Every part of us is mortal, and we must put on immortality, 1 Corinthians 15:52-54.
The spirit: The spirit is the breath of life given to us by God, in Luke 25:46 Jesus said to His Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit. In Acts 7:59, Stephen said Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. The spirit empowers us to experience God's profound love, it is through the spirit that we are empowered to live according to the ways of God, embracing righteousness and walking in His ways, in God's Spirit, the Holy Spirit, rather than walking in the ways of the world.
Our spirit is how we communicate with God, Job 32:8, Proverbs 20:27, John 4:24, 1 Corinthians 2:10-12. God inspires or motivates us by stirring up the spirit in a person, 1 Chronicles 5:25-26. God inspired King Cyrus to issue a decree, allowing the Jews to return to Jerusalem, Ezra 1:1.
See part 3
The Jews were started with Abraham.
Genesis 17:9
And God said untoAbraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
God called Jacob Israel.
Genesis 32:28
And he said, Thy name shall be called no moreJacob, butIsrael: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
The twelve tribes of Israel started with Jacob's twelve sons when they became a nation in Egypt . In Genesis 49, Jacob blesses his sons, who become the fathers of the 12 tribes.The sons are Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph, and Benjamin.
Genesis 49:28
All these are thetwelvetribesof Israel: and this is it that their father spake unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.
A true Jew is from within ( spiritual).
Romans 2:29
But he is aJew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Jesus Christ took the seed of Abraham in the flesh.
Hebrews 2:16
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed ofAbraham.
Because of Abraham faith, he became a Jew inwardly.
Hebrews 11:17
By faithAbraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith ofAbraham; who is the father of us all,
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
A Gentile is definitely not called a unsaved person. A Gentile is a none physical Jew living on this planet earth. According to God in Heaven, we have the Jews and we have the rest of the people that are Gentiles living on this earth. Jews are part of the Twelve Tribes of Israel .
Genesis 49:28
All these are thetwelvetribes of Israel: and this is it that their father spake unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.
The Gentiles never had the Law in the Old Testament.
Romans 2:14
For when theGentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Because the Gentiles did not believe in God in the Old Testament, they were called blasphemy.
Romans 2:24
For the name of God is blasphemed among theGentiles through you, as it is written.
The Gentiles had there own righteousness.
Romans 9:30
What shall we say then? That theGentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Jesus Christ called the Gentiles dogs.
Matthew 15:27
And she said, Truth, Lord: yet thedogseat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Because the fall of Israel, the Gentiles are blessed with the gospel of grace.
Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto theGentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
The Gentiles now has the gospel.
Romans 15:16
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to theGentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of theGentilesmight be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
I am a Gentiles saved by grace.
2 Peter 3:15-16
15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Apostle Paul always calls his writing the word of truth given to him by Jesus Christ the ascended Lord in Heaven.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing thewordoftruth.
To believe Apostle Paul's gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is saying I believe the word of truth in Christ for Salvation.
Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the wordoftruth, thegospelofyoursalvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spiritofpromise,
May the God in the Third Heaven open your understanding to the word of truth inwhich is the gospel of grace that Jesus Christ gave to Apostle Paul. God will judge us for that gospel one day.
Romans 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christaccordingtomygospel.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 if we believe the gospel ?
Philippians 3:5
Circumcisedtheeighthday, ofthestock of Israel, ofthetribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew oftheHebrews; as touchingthelaw, a Pharisee;
Finally, God separate us from the flesh. We are free from the bondage of sin, but not license to sin. And it doesn't make us a Jew inwardly or outwardly .
Colossians 2:11
In whom also ye arecircumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Apostle Paul is speaking to Jews.
Romans 2:28-29
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Ray , in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 keep the gospel of grace in your mind .
Part 2
Apostle Paul and Apostle Peter separated with there own beliefs. Apostle Paul went to the Gentiles and Apostle Peter went to the Jews. We will never have a Jew knock on our door for the gospel of grace, it just not happened.
Galatians 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of theuncircumcisionwas committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
God is speaking to us through Apostle Paul's epistle for doctrine and for instructions to live a glorious life on earth, until Jesus Christ calls us up in the clouds for the Rapture.
Romans 11:13
For I speak to youGentiles, inasmuch as I amtheapostleoftheGentiles, I magnify mineoffice:
1 Timothy 1:11
According to the gloriousgospelof the blessed God, which was committed tomytrust.
God in Heaven is given us a warning that we should take the gospel of grace serious. Apostle Paul was given the gospel of grace.
Romans 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according tomygospel.
May God in Heaven open the blind eye of the people that been deceived by the serpent.
2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as theserpentbeguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
May God bless our Bible study in righteousness and in love in Jesus Christ .
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Apostle Paul's gospel of grace given to him from above.
to pick up where I left off last night:
As believers, we should acknowledge the fact of our depravity, corruptness, rebelliousness, and sinfulness before God. We should know that we deserve all of the judgements of God, but be grateful to Him for electing us to receive His favor, grace and mercy that transforms us into vessels of His mercy for the praise of His glorious grace ( Rom. 1:6-14)
And we must also acknowledge that every person who was not elected to be saved by God deserves God's condemnation and that it is a just and right action of God and we should not accuse God of being unfair, unjust, unrighteous, or cruel for executing all He wishes upon sinners.
Romans 3:5
Romans 2:2
Ps. 9:8
Ps. 96:13
Ps. 11:7
Ps. 54:1
Ps. 119:7, 137
Ps. 7:11
Is. 5:16
To us it may seem unfair for God to not elect all humans. If God did elect all humans to salvation then that would mean that the doctrine of universalism would be true: that all humans will be saved. But it is clear that Scriptures do not teach this.
I will end this section on the depravity of man with this excerpt:
EXCERPT
"Because God is a righteous Judge, He is angry with the wicked every day ( Ps. 7:11). Today, R.C. Sproul explains how this wrathful indignation is justified.
Transcript
A perfectly holy judge of all of the world, who is incapable of being angry about evil, could not possibly be good.
God's anger, as we say, is righteous indignation. And it is an appropriate response to the reality of injustice. It is injustice that angers God. And it is because he is just, it is because he is righteous, it is because he is Holy that he has wrath.
Now the scriptures repeatedly declare that God himself is slow to anger. He's not a hothead. He doesn't come up with unprovoked fury. He is slow to reach the boiling point.
See Pt. 12
Pt. 4
I wish to use this excerpt because it explains this topic so well and identifies so many Scripture verses.
Excerpted From: Got Questions:
What Does It Mean that All Sinned?
Romans attests that in Adam, all sinned. Theologically, this has been called "original sin" over the centuries. Original sin does not mean that we are guilty of Adam's sin, but that we inherit a sinfulness that is transmitted from Adam to all humans. No human is exempt from being sinful and corrupted.
Humans are driven to sin, enslaved by this sinfulness to continue to sin and to rebel against God, as these Scriptures say:
John 8:34
Jesus replied, "Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.'
2 Peter 2:19
They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves to depravity. For a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.
Titus 3:3
For at one time we too were foolish, disobedient, misled, and enslaved to all sorts of desires and pleasures-living in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.
Romans 6:16, 17
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Romans 6:20
For when ye were the slaves of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Romans 3:10-12 quotes Psalm 14:2-3 and Ps. 53: 1-3 saying that no one does what is good, not even one, no one understands the things of God (spiritual matters) because the god of this world has blinded us so that we cannot see the glory of Jesus in the gospel.
Paul also says that all humans are hostile to God, at enmity towards Him, His enemy, dead in sin, and enslaved to sin, we do not seek Him nor can we please God nor submit to His law. Elsewhere we are told that it is man's pride that keeps Him from hating his sin and submitting to God.
( Romans 2:1; 5:10: 3:10-18, 8:6-8; Eph.2:13; Ecc. 7:20; Ps. 14:2; 36:1-2; Is. 53:2)
See Pt. 5
I find this very interesting because Apostle Paul didn't baptize many people. " 1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ sent me not tobaptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. "
John 4:2
(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
It amaze me that she claim Jacob as of her father and was not even a Jew herself. " Romans 2:29
But he is aJew, which is oneinwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. "
John 4:12
Art thou greater than our fatherJacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
Because Jesus told her, she had five husbands, she believed the more. " Proverbs 15:3
The eyes of theLordare in every place, beholding theevilandthegood. "
John 4:18
For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly
When God made Adam and Eve, they were both soul and spirit first. God made them at the same time. " Genesis 1:27
So God createdmanin his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. "
John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Jesus had a command to the twelve: " Matthew 10:5
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commandedthem, saying,GonotintothewayoftheGentiles, and into any cityoftheSamaritans enter yenot: "
John 4:27
And upon this came his disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with her?
John 4:42
And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
The Bible is a great book and is alive ...
The Israel that God has in view is spiritual Israel consisting of all those who are born from above by the Spirit of the living God and justified by the faith of Christ.
We read in Galatians 6:14-16
14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
The Israel of God consist of all those who are in Christ Jesus, regardless of whatever political nation they may come from. We read in Romans 2:28-29
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
To be a Jew inwardly, and to be circumcised in the heart, means to have one's sins cut off by virtue of the atoning work of the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave his life that men might be set free from bondage and slavery to sin. It has nothing to do with whatever nation one comes from.
Cont in Part 3
Romans 2:22 - Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
You who says a man should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You that abhorrest idols, and the Jews abhorred idols.
The text is Deuteronomy 7:25-26 which told them that they were not to have idols, and they were not to enter into the temple of pagans who worship idols. The word abhor means to be nauseated. You are sick at the thought of idols.
Do you commit sacrilege? The word sacrilege means to rob the idols. What they would do was they'd go into the temples, and they would say "You guys are pagans, and you have idol worshipping going on."
So, they would tear the temple down and destroy it. And they would take the idols home and melt them down and make it part of their possessions. Do idols make you sick? And yet you rob them? You take them home with you?
Romans 3:2 - Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
He says much in every way: chiefly, because unto them were committed the oracles of God. The word oracles is a diminutive word of the word "word," the different principles of laws of God. They're privileged and they were given the law of God. That's a very privileged person.
Romans 3:4 - God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
God forbid: Literally in the Greek it says, "May it not happen."
Romans 3:14 - Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
The word cursing doesn't mean to swear. It means to wish destruction on people.
Romans 2:6 - Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
The word render is the Greek word for paycheck. Everybody is going to get paid for what they did. We understand the word deeds as activity. This is not individual things that we have done, but everyone will have to answer for the activity that has gone on in their life over their entire life.
Has it been the activity of Christ, or has it been the activity of the world? Everyone will have to answer how they spent their life.
Romans 2:7 - To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing do seek for glory and honour and immortality, to them will be given eternal life:
Notice patient continuance. Jesus said in Matthew Chapter 24 Verse 13 "He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." That's not a requirement. That is a characteristic. Everybody who's saved will make it to the end because they have the Holy Spirit. It is a characteristic of a person who is saved.
It says to the patient continuance in well doing. The word well is the word for good that is Spiritual good. It is the word AGATHOS. They continually spent their time in the good of the Lord, the things of Christ. To them they will be given eternal life.
Romans 2:20 - An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
The word form means outline. You don't have the substance. You just have the form.
Romans 1:31 - Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Without understanding. The Greek word means spiritual understanding. They have no spiritual understanding anymore.
Romans 1:32 - Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Not only do they do the same things while they know judgment is coming, as far as death, but they have pleasure in them that do them. The word pleasure in the Greek means to applaud. They cheer on the other people who are doing the same thing!
Romans 2:2 - But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
There are four principles given in Chapter 2 Verses 2 through 16 that start with the word KATA in the Greek. KATA is a preposition, and it means according to. God judges according to the truth. We see in Romans 2:11 that God is no respecter of persons. He doesn't look at somebody and say "Oh, you're Jewishno problem! Oh, you're a Gentileget out of here!" God judges according to the facts with every single person no matter who they are.
Romans 2:5 - But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
But after the hardness and your impenitent heart, and the word hardness is where we get our word callousness from. You know how when you go out and work in the yard, and you haven't done it in a long time, you get blisters. But after you been out there a while, you build up callouses because it continues to rub one time after another and after another until it builds up a resistance to it.
Some people are like that spiritually. God's Spirit continues to minister to them, and they keep rejecting it and they keep suppressing the truth to where their heart becomes calloused against the Lord.
The first Adam, his disobedience brought sin and death into the world, Romans 5:12-19. The last Adam by obedience to God brought forgiveness and life, the resurrection from the dead, 1 Corinthians 15:21-22.
Adam and Eve were naked and were not ashamed, their hearts were uncorrupted and free from sin. After they ate the forbidden fruit their eyes were opened, their consciences were opened to the knowledge of good and evil, and sin replaced the purity they had. They had a sense of fear and disgrace due to their disobedience.
The shame they now felt was due to the sinful nature that entered them and now they no longer perfectly perceived things, their view of their nakedness should be covered. Nakedness was not a sin, but a fallen perception of nakedness brought shame and sorrow they now felt.
As God covered Adam and Eve with coats of skins to cover their shame/nakedness. Our nakedness of shame can be covered with the garment Isaiah 61:10 given by Jesus. We in Jesus shall not be found naked, but clothed, with the garment of Christ's righteousness, our sins covered and cleansed by the blood of Jesus that makes it spotless and white as long as we continue in faith and overcome.
Concerning those that do not die in the Lord, that do not watch, and keep their garments will walk naked, their sins will be open to being seen, Revelation 16:15 1 Timothy 4:1-2 Revelation 20:15.
Every human being, whether they're saved or unsaved, and regardless of their culture, ethnicity, or background, has a conscience, Romans 2:14-15. Inside this conscience is the battle between the flesh and the Spirit Romans 9:1 we can repent and be covered, if not we will be naked and found guilty. We cannot hide what is in our conscience, it records every good and evil we have ever done or thought. I feel this is where we are naked or clothed. Romans 4:6-8 2 Corinthians 1:12 1 Timothy 1:19 Hebrews 9:9 Hebrews 13:18 1 Peter 3:21.
God bless,
RLW
I would say that God is very fair, for He is a righteous and just God. It is the world that is not fair. It is humanity itself that's not fair.
Ezekiel 18:25, "Yet you say, "The way of the Lord is not fair." Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not my way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair?"
There were those in the house of Israel who were questioning the fairness of God. God's response was that His ways are completely fair, and that they were the ones who were unfair.
Leviticus 19:15 would show how God values fairness. It says, "Do not pervert justice; do not show favoritism to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly."
The very nature of God is that He is fair and just. There are several places in the bible that show how fair God is. Here are just a few places in scripture that show the fairness of God: Matthew 20:16, Romans 2:11, 1 Peter 1:17.
Would you be able to share why you feel God does not put much value on fairness? Also, what is your take on the parable of the talents?
Blessings!
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in GOD, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Matthew 25:31-34 and 41&46
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Get ready-> Acts 14:22
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the RIGHTEOUS into life ETERNAL.( Romans 2:7-11.Take a look)
Revelation 20:4
4-And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them( Revelation 11:16-17), and Judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of GOD, and which had not worshipped the Beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
The most important thing is to be with Him, no matter where or in what place, the problem is to be cast into the fire of hell.--> Matthew 10:28-take a look.
GOD BLESS
(Sorry I missed deleting some of my later commentary in the last posting).
In the song "Leaving Eden" at least Brandon Heath's version gives a sobering reminder of man's decay and plight. God has as Ecclesiastes states put eternity in their hearts ( Ecclesiastes 3:11); one aspect of which is always looking back to Eden or finding something that pleases the five senses to give the illusion that we can once again retreat to our own utopia.
One look at our bodies in the mirror after a few decades reminds us of reality. The destruction of the outer shell made from the dust of the earth is the fate of all of us due to what is known as the 2nd law of thermodynamics where all things in the universe at present are in a state of decay. The soul of unregenerate man has nothing to hold onto but memories; which become more and more corrupted and delusional as our mind deteriorates and sin hardens men's hearts. The conscience becomes more and more seared and eventually sin has its full result leading to death; which is spiritual death once the body dies. In reality one is dead spiritually even when living on this earth without Christ. (read Romans 6).
The good news is that before we know the law we are innocent ( Romans 7:9). This would appear to be another verse showing how those before a certain age of accountability have a sin nature but don't understand enough to deliberately sin against God.
We shudder to think of events such as a 5 year old getting hold of a gun and killing a parent or sibling although it does happen. Surely they wouldn't be convicted for murder. I have said this before; that it isn't one's fault that they are born this way; but it is if they are old enough to decide to live it out and remain that way as man has a conscience at least before totally seared ( Romans 2:15). See also 1 Timothy 4:2. In my next posting I am going to discuss man's vs. God's understanding of good and evil.
As S Spencer said we may not know for sure.
We all have inside us, a sinful nature from the first Adam, we also have a conscience, the knowledge of good and evil, and the knowledge of God. We first see this when Adam and Eve hid themselves because they were naked. We see some go so far into the darkness that their conscience can be seared, the conscience no longer tells them good from evil, 1 Timothy 4:2. There is a point where God turns them over to a reprobate mind, Romans 1:28-32.
I believe there will be those who enter eternity who have never heard the gospel, and those who lived before Jesus first came because we have a loving and just God.
Romans 2:11-16 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
My understanding is this will happen at the great white throne judgment, Revelation 20:11-15, in this it says, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire". If some were not found in the Book of Life means some were found in it. I know many may not agree but if we consider verses like Daniel 12:2 Matthew 25:31-46 John 5:28-29 to me these also point to this white throne judgment.
I am sure our loving and just God communicates with those who have not had a chance to read or hear Scripture, I believe the blood of Christ will cover them as well.
God bless,
RLW
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Here's the message for today, and for days ahead, day by day, and henceforward, until the END of all things, and END this world as a whole.
Genesis 19:13 reveals the voice sounded in Sodom: We will destroy this place,... but now, even now, from now on, the same voice will destroy the current world of Devil as a whole, as was prophesied, since ancient time. The same Word, the Word of GOD, GOD Himself, must sound, self-executing it. Heavens and earth shall PASS AWAY, but my Words shall not pass away, says my Lord, so
Get ready
There shall be wrath against the wicked- Romans 2:8-9 combined with Revelation 11:18, among many biblical references- see, only Judgment and Justice will support you. Righteousness and Judgment are the foundation of GOD's Throne.
Get read
Question. In Romans 8:28-29 says, "28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.29For whom he did FOREKNOW, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.". What does that "foreknow" stand for? God foreknew what?
Another question. 1 Timothy 2:4, "Who(God) will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.". If God wants ALL people to be saved, why does He choose some specific people for salvation, and not all?
Third and final question. Romans 2:6-10, "6Who(God) will render to every man according to his deeds:7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:" Here it says that God will save or judge people according to their deeds. But why is this since salvation is granted by faith and not works? Doesn't those seem to be in contrast to one other? What are your thoughts on those?
Romans 2:14-16 and 12 and 5-11
14For when the Gentiles, which HAVE NOT THE LAW, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, HAVING NOT THE LAW, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16In the Day (this Day arrived, the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium) when GOD shall Judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ (the Judgment Seat of Christ) according to my gospel.
Get ready
12For as many as have sinned WITHOUT LAW(the Gentiles)shall also PERISH WITHOUT LAW:and as many as have sinned in the LAW shall be JUDGED by the LAW;
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself WRATH against the Day of WRATH and revelation of the righteous Judgment of GOD;(This Day arrived)
6 Who will render to EVERY MAN according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the Truth, but obey unrighteousness, INDIGNATION AND WRATH,
(What is written in the verses 7 and 8 above will be LITERALLY fulfilled from now on. The Word is GOD, GOD HIMSELF, self-executing,understand?)
9TRIBULATION and ANGUISH, upon EVERY SOUL of man that doeth evil,of the JEW first,and also of the GENTILE;
( Isaiah 26:20-21->20 Come,my people,enter thou into thy chambers,and shut thy doors about thee:HIDE THYSELF as it were for a little moment(the last week-week 70th- Daniel 9:27),until the INDIGNATION be overpast. 21 For,behold, the LORD cometh out of His place to PUNISH the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity( Matthew 24:10-13): the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain)
10But glory,honour,and peace,to every man that worketh good,to the JEW first,and also to the GENTILE;
11For there is no respect of persons with GOD.
Get ready
c. just considering the two passages you shared about "obeying the commandments":
Romans 2:12,13 which needs to be considered in its entirety Romans 2:12-16. Verse 12: Paul refers to those without the Law (i.e. Gentiles) will perish, just as those of Israel (in the Law), who sin will perish. Verse 13: only the doers of the Law (i.e. those given the Law) will be justified (but none have kept the Law perfectly leading to justification). Verses 14,15: Paul confirms that the Gentiles never received the Law, but by nature/conscience sake demonstrate the working of the Law within them. And so Gentiles construct their own law to suit their lives/consciences, yet without God's Law being their motivation & yardstick.
So these verses don't tell me that Christians come under the Law to obey them, rather they speak of Gentiles who have not received the Law, avoid God's Work of appealing to their (some of their) hearts, & ultimately refusing to hear & obey the Gospel that can deliver them from the agony & weight of their sin. These, along with Israel who do not keep God's Laws perfectly (as none can anyway), will perish, without the One Who came to fulfil the Law & redeem them by being their substitute for sin's punishment.
Not a problem Momsage. I'm more than happy to converse with anyone who wishes to do so, though I was careful to not overstep the bounds you had once set to your communicants.
I understand that you're referencing only the 10 Commandments as the Law given, & as I stated, to Israel only. So your questions:
a. when we refer to Gentiles, we can think of all those outside of God's special called-out people; those of old-time who never even heard of such a Law & were a law unto themselves, and now to us now, who have heard of the Law, but are brought under subjection to governments of men. So, what standards do the Gentiles follow? Those of old times, Romans 2:14 applies, "...the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves", but the 'working of the law is upon their hearts, excusing or accusing them'. Those under civil government are subject to the 'laws of the land' regardless of how well govts adhere to Divine Law or not. Many gentiles today, as those of yesteryear, have no idea of those laws given to Israel, but they do know that civil law bares its ruthless arm against them.
b. the "imputed laws that Jesus expects us (Christians?) to obey", would be everything that we need to know & obey according to the dictates of the Holy Spirit within us. And these 'laws' I think you would agree, go far far beyond the abridged Decalogue. E.g. you won't find the sin of Pride in the Decalogue, yet as Christians we immediately are given conviction & the need for repentance when pride surfaces in our thoughts or speech. Yet, we get a problem: a conviction to one may not always be a conviction to another believer; e.g. a white lie, wearing immodest clothing, using slightly flowery language, etc. Each one of us has to stand before God for our lives, knowing that not all of us have gained the same spiritual understanding/maturity to know & act upon deviations from righteous living.