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Jesus as the only begotten Son chose the twelve and he did it in obedience to the gospel of his Father. While we have ample evidence that he was particular to fulfill the requirements of the world made flesh by obeying the Law. No names of the other seventy disciples are provided in the narrative. The Holy Spirit selected Paul outside the twelve in pursuance of the everlasting gospel. It is thus the provision under day four is continued throughout.
"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,/Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;." This refers to the Ps.2. "Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession." How does god deliver the heathen from outer Mongolia or from outer darkness fall under the same everlasting gospel. God promise to his Son defines our volume as well..
We are complete in him (Col.2.9-10). What has Satan to do with it if we have entered into the God's rest and walk therein? The sects who cut up into seven dispensations are sons of perdition.
Christians everywhere are called to be saints. They carry 'my name is in him' for one thing. Seconds while we were yet sinners God loved us." But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."(Rom.5.8). St Paul addresses the church in Rome as beloved of God called to be saints. Predestination allows everyone of them to have a volume which is evident from this key verse:
"Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord", and this volume is determined by the Covenant in seven days, Firstly God decreed this day as in the psalm. "Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee./Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession." What is the uttermost parts a term we find Jesus referring to, "and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."(Matt.28.20) Here we shall require understanding: the reason God set the two greater lights is a pledge to the saints.
On one hand we have the heights which is 'the holy hill of Zion' where the psalmists refers' I have set my king upon my holy hill of Zion'. There shall be no night there.(Rev.21.25;Ps.2.6) So our volume touches the world of the Spirit. Here we have the greater light to rule the day which has no end. This greater light refers to the Father of lights and not natural lights.. On the day of regeneration Christ promise to the 12 disciples require goverance of the outer darkness. The left behind church and the nation of Israel shall go through tribulation and a remnant shall be saived. Thus the lesser light shall rule the night.
Our obedience to the word which is Law establishes 'our putting on Christ. One clear proof is 'that other seventy disciples; and their ministry come under the everlasting gospel.
Jesus as the only begotten Son chose the twelve
Yes, God had planned in eternity past to have the Old covenant of Law to convict every person of their sinfulness and the New Covenant sealed by the death and shed blood of our Savior, Jesus, to free us from the grip of sin, death, hell, and the devil bringing forgiveness of sin, justification by faith in Him, reconciliation to the Father through Him, and, by regenerating us at just the right time, freeing us from the bondage of our sinful nature, blessing us with faith to believe, making us alive to God in Christ, and empowering our will to turn to Him.
All of the New Covenant blessings towards our salvation are given by God through Christ and the Holy Spirit. None of us in our own will, power, and disposition could make any move towards God that would lead to salvation. We were dead to God, not wanting by our own free will to turn to Him or serve Him or believe in him. We were unable to do so. But, Thanks be to our great God-Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, He planned and decreed from eternity past to elect, call, regenerate, and bring to faith in Jesus all who were chosen by grace before the foundation of the world He foreordained to save in Christ Jesus.
These truths bring us in awe of Him, who, will we were yet sinners, His enemies, and opposed to Him without remedy within us, sent His Spirit to regenerate us, not by our own will, because we would never choose nor have the power to do so, and to bring us into union with our Savior, who died and rose again for those He foreloved and saved to the glory of God!.
What we were to sinful, weak, and impotent to do, God did for us all that was necessary for us to be changed, made new, and to be willing to believe on Him who bled and died for us. Hallelujah! If not for God's eternal purpose to save all He elected to salvation, no one would be saved because no one would turn to God!
It is helpful to study Ephesians chapter 1 especially to discover these truths.
God does know all that is and all that will occur in time. He knows this all this from eternity past. And nothing occurs that He did not purpose to occur. This is a great truth but one that is hard for us to wrap our minds around. We freely choose what we say and do, but God in His sovereign will has ordained such, yet He does not make us sin or do what is right. He governs all things in history in fulfillment of His purposes, plan, and ultimately His eternal decree.
By the way, I canned green beans yesterday. It is such a good feeling to look at the jars full of what God allowed to grow in my small garden beds.
Hebrews 2:18
"For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
1 John 3:24
"And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us."
Blessings
God does know all that is and all that will occur in time. He knows this all this from eternity past. And nothing occurs that He did not purpose to occur. This is a great truth but one that is hard for us to wrap our minds around. We freely choose what we say and do, but God in His sovereign will has ordained such, yet He does not make us sin or do what is right. He governs all things in history in fulfillment of His purposes, plan, and ultimately His eternal decree.
By the way, I canned green beans yesterday. It is such a good feeling to look at the jars full of what God allowed to grow in my small garden beds.
In my journey through the Old Testament. Then I read so much about what was evil in the eyes of the Lord and what was good in the eyes of the Lord. I am horrified by how much the Lord has had to endure from all human inventions! And of course He could not continue this old covenant. It was absolutely necessary to make a new and everlasting covenant. Amen.
Be strong in the Lord. Ephesians 6:10 Love u in Christ
That's great, I like making jams but they only last about 6 weeks. Did you learn it from your family or did you learn it on your own.
I grew up in a poor family with 10 children. My parents worked very hard and sacrificed tremendously to support us. We had a big garden ad every summer my Mom canned and canned and canned. We helped her in ways she asked us to help, whether harvesting, prepping vegetables and fruits, filling jars, or keeping watch over the pressure canner.
My Dad to charge of prepping the garden, planting, weeding, and all. We all helped with this, too.
We also gleaned from people who had extra produce.
My parents were very resourceful and frugal, so we were graced by their hard work and commitment to us being fed well. We didn't often order out from restaurants, and meals were primarily from scratch, which we helped prepare and cook.
So, I learned most of my skills from my parents and I am thankful for having been expected to help out. I learned to cook from my early teens onward. My Dad gave me a second-hand pressure canner for graduation. I still have and use it after 50 years!
I don't make jelly as my husband and I are diabetic, so we just by sugar free jars when we need it. We don't use jelly much.
If I had berries growing in my yard I would probably do some jam/jelly for others and a little for us, but mostly we prefer fresh berries and fruit.
I am hoping to expand my raised beds as we redo our backyard landscape. Hope to plant raspberries and a few blueberry bushes. As we are able to put together more of these beds I can grow more vegetables that will keep us in these foods for the summer and fall and then to can or freeze some for winter.
I love having the time now to grow this food. When I was teaching, I did not have time to do this. So, I do a lot of dirt therapy now with flowers that I grow in pots.
We hope to have the front and back yards redone and refreshed by the end of next fall, the Lord willing. Then we can enjoy it for the remainder of our days here with the hard work being done up front.
I continue to pray for you and yours. It really helps that you post often so that I am reminded of your requests.
Blessings to you today!
Sometimes it is good not to obsess on these things; other times in some Reformed circles debate can be enjoyable (although I could do without the cigar smoking and occasional drinking that seems to go on in some of these circles).
I spent a fair amount of time in Calvanist circles; in some ways "hypercalvanist". I assume you're around my ball park age wise given your 45 years of questions; I'm in my early 60's.
It is interesting there seems to be a lot more participation and prayer requests with new people lately. It has been a challange as some I guess are of other nationalities or write stuff that I just can't understand.
Anyway I have a lot of older posts; not sure if they are saved anymore but I did a study some time back a couple years ago on Predestination dissecting the book of John it may be under the verse specific catagory.
In short if it doesn't give you peace don't sweat it; the concept of Predestination and such should give peace not of this world as it is part of God's character. We can't possibly understand all the Deuteronomy 29:29 stuff (I'll let you look that one up).
Agape; RIch P
God is mighty to save ( Zephaniah 3:17)
May He bring you to hear and believe the gospel message concerning Jesus as our Savior and Lord from a heart and soul regenerated by the Holy Spirit, drawn to Jesus by the Father, and accepted by Jesus according to His promises.
If you desire to be saved by this gospel message that blesses those who are called by it with faith, then know that God indeed has chosen you for salvation today! You can just call back to God in faith by calling out to Jesus to save you and you will be!
Begin your new life in Jesus today! Just begin thinking about Him, talking to Him, reading about Him in Scripture, and enjoying this free gift of salvation from Him.
Also, In Romans Chapters 6,7 & 8, is a wonderful trilogy of basic Christian doctrine. Finally, Paul arrived at Chapter 8, solidifying his faith, in the walk by the Spirit of grace, only by which we are justified.
What is it that is holding you back from receiving Jesus into your life and being born of His Spirit?
Salvation has nothing to do with "accepting Christ". Salvation is 100% the Work of God. Any Church today will give you a formula as to "how we can become saved":That is not the Gospel of the Bible.
We all by nature are Spiritually Dead. Just like the Physically Dead can do nothing to raise themselves to Physical Life, we can do nothing to raise ourself to Spiritual Life. God must do all the work of Saving us.
He must have chosen us to be saved before He created the World, Election.
He must have paid the price demanded by His Law for all of our sins, Eternal Death.
He must apply that Salvation to our life by giving us a New Resurrected Soul, Born Again.
We read in Romans 3:10-18 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips: 14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
So what can we do?
We may cry to God for Mercy, like the Publican,"God be merciful to me a sinner".
We may plead with God for a "broken and contrite heart" which He will not despise ( Psalm 51:17).
We can place ourselves in an environment where God is saving;"Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." ( Rom 10:17).
We can begin to turn away from our sins, repentance, and begin to be more obedient to God's Law, the Bible; recognizing that none of this will save us.
There is great Hope for Salvation in our Day. But we must "wait upon God", if it might be His will to save us.
Read Jonah 3 and 4, Salvation of the Ninevites. Read Ezekiel 36:24-32.
Hopefully you can get some solace for your soul if these matters are vexing and disturbing.
Again; blessings.
RP
I would state that many are called; few are chosen (I will let you find the verse since it's late). But of course Judas Iscariot was called and chosen but was destined to be the son of perdition; lost forever.
Now those who are Calvinists seem to think that verses like that are referring to the elect only. There are other passages which mention the "shole world" which seem to be a stretch taken in that context. We also have to remember that Jesus offered Judas the sop which was traditionally an honor; and it was prophesied that He would be hurt by a friend's betrayal ( Psalm 55; also related to David's struggles). Just as it rains on the just and unjust; some argue common grace isn't true in some Reformed circles; etc.
I guess the best way I can describe it is man's responsibility coexists with God's sovereign choice or election as it were. Those that don't believe in Calvinism or the principles of election say it is the METHOD of God's salvation PLAN in the church that is being referred to; and in truth that explains those that try to climb in the sheepfold the wrong way. God has a prescribed method for following Him and that is of course abandoning ourselves at the foot of the Cross then of course carrying our cross daily. But there are verses in Acts and elsewhere discussing God GRANTING repentance. We truly can't love Christ without divine help; lost man of course will curse God but they love their sin more than God's righteousness; and men more than God as well. They can't see the sin nature; only the outer manifestations or behaviors of sin or professed "righteousness" which of course is as filthy rags as Isaiah states and no one does good as many other verses in Psalms; etc. declare.
Well outta space hope this helps a wee bit.
Agape RIch P
In short...
Predestination in Scripture can't mean that God arbitrarily chooses who will believe the gospel. Rather, it refers to the certain destiny that God has determined for those who have already believed. According to Paul's revelation, once a sinner responds in faith to the gospel of grace-that Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day ( 1 Cor. 15:1-4)-that person immediately becomes part of the Body of Christ and enters into a divine plan that God purposed before the foundation of the world.
Paul explains that believers are "predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son" ( Rom. 8:29), meaning that our ultimate destiny is to share in Christ's glory, perfected in His likeness. He further states that we are predestined "unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself" ( Eph. 1:5), pointing to our secured position as sons and heirs with all the blessings of heaven. Predestination, therefore, concerns the outcome of our salvation, not the initial act of believing.
Salvation is entirely by grace through faith, offered freely to all. God does not override human will by predetermining who will accept or reject Christ. Instead, He has predetermined the blessings, position, and eternal inheritance of all who freely believe. This preserves both God's sovereignty and man's responsibility.
In short, God has not predestined who will be saved, but He has predestined what will happen to the saved: conformity to Christ, heavenly adoption, and eternal glory as members of His Body.
Grace and Peace to all!
Romans 8:28-29 reads, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
FOR WHOM HE DID FOREKNOW, HE ALSO DID PREDESTINATE to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:17.
God knows all things and he knew who would come to him and he predestinated them to be conformed to the image of his Son!
Blessings.
With all due respect Mr. Spencer and others,
God did not Predestinate certain individuals to be saved BECAUSE He KNEW they would come to Him. This is what God KNEW about any and all of mankind, including you and me:
Romans 3:9-18 9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips: 14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
God KNEW that NO ONE, let me say that again, NO ONE would come to Him apart from His Sovereign Mercy in PREDESTINATING a Remnant chosen by His Election of Grace, throughout time and throughout the World, to be saved. Why? because apart from God's action in salvation, we are ALL SPIRITUALLY DEAD and in Rebellion against God in Body and Soul.
Romans 9:14-16 14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Romans 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Election=Hope! Praise God!
Did Jesus die for all, yes or no?
1 John 2:2 says YES
John 3:16 says YES
1 Timothy 2:4-6 says YES
2 Corinthians 5:14 says YES
Romans 10:13 says YES
1 John 4:14 says YES
But Calvinists say NO
Scripture saying Jesus did NOT die for all:
[none]
The Word of God says Jesus died for "all" and the "whole world" and "everyone" in those verses above. All means all, and the whole world means the whole world, and everyone means everyone. But cult teachings will try to twist this and say all does NOT mean all, and the whole world does NOT mean the whole world, and everyone does NOT mean everyone. It's like the serpent in the Garden of Eden who said you shall NOT surely die. It's obvious who is on what side by how they either affirm or denounce the scripture.
Those who disobey and intentionally deceive others from the truth put themselves in grave danger of God's wrath.
The 2nd big lie told by some is that people don't have freewill to do anything whatsoever. Some contradict themselves by saying they still sin but isn't their fault, while others say they don't sin at all and are perfect like Jesus, an obvious lie that 1 John 1:8 makes clear. Verses like Joshua 24:15 that say for you to choose (Calvinists deny this means you're not choosing) or for you to open the door (Calvinists deny this means you're opening the door) Revelation 3:20 , John 7:17.
The biggest lie I hear many say about others- they claim others are trying to EARN their own salvation. That lie is straight from Satan. They know its a lie but will spread it anyway. They know that 99% of Christians believe in grace and believe it is a gift, not earned. But just because they believe God gave them a gift of choice like Joshua 24:15 says, they suddenly claim their motives are to "earn" heaven. So dishonest. Beware of wolves!
"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."
Romans 10:9
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Galatians 3:26
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."
Blessings
I have read your post and it seems that you have misconstrued what most Calvinists believe and have mixed up Calvinism with those of Wesleyan and Holiness persuasion (who are not Calvinists) believe about achieving sinless perfection in this life.
Neither do Calvinists believe or teach that man does not have free will, but that man has a sinful nature that deprives them of choosing to turn to God, that mankind in its sinful, deadness, will always refuse to seek after God, repent, or obey God's call to faith in the gospel.
And lastly, some Calvinists do teach and believe in a limited atonement-that Jesus died to save only the elect. Others do believe in universal atonement-that His death and sacrifice for sin was sufficient to save any and all persons, but since only those who are elected before creation for salvation will indeed be drawn to Jesus by the Father, those not elected will die in their sin because they were not given grace and mercy to turn to God and that these freely choose to live in rebellion against God until their death.
I would suggest that you do some research on Calvinism by those who teach and believe in it's tenets and then do an honest critique of what is actually believed by them. It seems that you are repeating misrepresentations of Calvinistic beliefs you heard from others who reject it as being deceptive.
Also, I would suggest that you present positively what you believe and how it may differ from actual teachings from Calvinists, most often calling themselves "Reformed".
I appreciate your fervor for truth from Scripture and I encourage you to hold up what Reformed believers actually present as their doctrines to Scriptures. I know it is difficult to approach this topic in an open minded way, so I would suggest that you do so prayerfully and humbly with an teachable attitude.
Whether or not you have a change of mind, it is in the "mind of Christ" to be charitable to those you disagree with, even strongly.
Yes. I deleted my two responses to your comment on Romans 9. I did this for two reasons.
First, I was not satisfied with the way that I was articulating my understanding of these passages and the Nature of Salvation itself. And second, because some of my responses to this thread have not appeared in the View All pages.
I confess that I find it very difficult to communicate my understanding in 2000 characters. It is also difficult to have a conversation with someone whose comments are posted immediately, since my posts are sometimes delayed for many hours.
That said, what you received in your email is an accurate expression of my understanding, not only of Romans 9, but of God's election and predestination which is an integral part of God's judgment and salvation program.
I don't think there's any question whatsoever that Romans 9 is dealing with salvation. I think that is crystal clear from the language and the context. I don't understand how someone might come to a conclusion other than that.
I think the doctrine of election as clearly taught in the Bible is one of the most hopeful and comforting doctrines in scripture. Because if it were not for God's elective program, no one would be saved.
This brings me to the subject of what kind of a gospel we are following, and placing our trust in. If we are trusting in a gospel that requires some action on our part, including exercise of our faith (our belief) to initiate or contribute to our salvation, we are trusting in a gospel of grace plus works, and are in grave danger. As a saved individual, "any good work" that we do is the RESULT of our salvation, never the CAUSE. That kind of a gospel refutes what God is clearly declaring in Romans 3 and other similar passages.
May God in his mercy lead us into truth, in accordance with his will and his timing, as we humbly search the scriptures using the hermeneutic that God declares in His Word.
Thank you for your dialogue, Chris, and may God richly bless you.
As well, this Site has made some major changes where once we were able to view all the comment pages, but now restricted to just one, probably because of the burden on the site when so many pages are active, causing their resources to be strained or crash. As for the 2000 characters only: I appreciate this extra allowance, as many years ago, I believe we were only given 1000 characters, thereby having to resort to several pages to give a suitable succinct response. So now to my response to you (drafted yesterday):
a. Romans 9:1-3. I agree, Paul's anguish was for his kinsmen; that he would rather suffer under God's Judgement if that meant their salvation. These verses do speak of the salvation matter concerning Israel.
b. Romans 9:4-18. A long discourse as Paul rehearses Israel's privileged position, their calling through Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob, and of course, God's prerogative to elect Jacob over Esau, for Moses to view the Form of God, and employing Pharaoh to do God's bidding. In all this, the refrain is, 'God will show compassion, mercy, even hardening' to whomever He wills'. Nothing here about saving or rejecting anyone for salvation, except to show God's Work as He chooses to perform for His Purposes and Glory. Onto Page 2.
c. Romans 9:19-33. Here begins Paul's introduction of the Jews (& Gentiles) salvation. The same God Who has Power to make and use some people for honorable use and others for baser use, can also be justified in sending "vessels of His wrath" to destruction. Why are they 'vessels of wrath'? Because God endured with much patience for their repentance (v22); that they refused Him, they then were judged as fit for hell. If God had already appointed (elected) some to Heaven and some to Hell, there is absolutely no need for any "longsuffering" by God, because their destinies are certain as appointed by God. But God waits for all to turn to Him - and this is the anguish of both the heart of God and the apostle here.
That said, how then does a sinner respond to this Gospel of Salvation, or does he not respond, since that means he has contributed in some way to God's Gift? I agree, we are indeed children of wrath, lost & debased as wretched sinners without hope. And I believe that it can only be God by His Spirit, Who can draw a sinner to Christ and His Cross ( John 6:44). Is this sinner who is being drawn, one of the elect foreordained by God to salvation, or is the sinner any person who is under concern and conviction now being drawn to the Cross? Someone could say, referring to my last clause, that if a sinner is concerned/convicted then he is contributing to God's salvation. Likewise, if a convicted sinner receives Christ as His Savior, he is somehow adding to his salvation. I don't believe that one is doing anything of the sort. Responding to God for the burden of sin being lifted and being given new life and hope doesn't add an iota to God's Work of Salvation. If a parent gives a gift to his child and the child responds with gratitude and joy, the gift still remains a gift with no demands or encumbrances. But if that child has to do some house chores to get that gift, then yes, it is no longer a gift but a payment. Onto Page 3.
So too with Salvation: entirely from God and a Gift to those who would believe; but it is most appropriate to receive it with thanksgiving, which should never be considered as a work or effort to gain that salvation.
Moving on to John 3:16. I took note of how you interpret this verse and to focus on the words in that verse: "believe and world". I would agree that for one to truly believe in God's Son and the work of the Cross, that faith must come from God's Spirit, just as that same Spirit has drawn the sinner to see his heart condition & need of a Savior. And yes, it can never be an "Intellectual Belief", for there are many who do so to their own spiritual peril. So, the Spirit draws the sinner, gives him understanding of his condition, onto contrition and repentance, and then faith to believe & be born from above into a new life in Christ.
"For God so loved the WORLD". The 'World' is 'Kosmos' in Greek, which includes not only the world we live in but also the 'worlds' around us. You wrote that if this meant "every individual that has ever existed in the World..it would be a violation of God's Law as Christ did not pay the full penalty required by the Law". Can you see what you're writing here? That Christ's Sacrifice was not for all people but only for those He has saved or will save. Well, we need to then understand the Nature of God's Love for all people He has placed on His Earth. My understanding is that God's Love extends to all, no exceptions, for that is Who God is. If He cannot extend His Love to all, then He isn't a God of Love - for that is His very Nature. Because our sins have separated us from God, God in Mercy, finding nothing worthy of redemption within us & extended from us, stooped into humanity to offer Himself in His Son as our substitutionary payment. The religions of this world reject such a 'ridiculous' proposition & belief, requiring that each one make restitution for his own sins & hope for approval & acceptance. Onto Page 4
If our God, in His Love for all, should declare His Love only to those He has elected to salvation, rejecting & condemning the rest to hell, then we together as sinners, through no fault of our own because of sin's nature & transmission, are under His random selection that determines some to suffer and others to be blessed. Why? Aren't we the same in sin as each other? Why save some and not others - and that from a God of incomprehensible Love? If He has pre-selected some to salvation, loving them to the exclusion of all others, what justification does God use, to send many to hell not having any opportunity to hear and respond? Every sin of all people has been fully paid for (that is what I read of God's Love, fully & correctly expressed), but that doesn't mean that all are automatically saved. The payment has been made, now the sinner needs to respond as the Holy Spirit draws Him. If God selects only some to salvation, then it can be truly questioned about the reality and worth of God's Love. Maybe, we should examine this Love of God (is it impartial to all or just partial to some?) before we can even consider any other passages.
Not sure if you wanted to continue with this important subject, but thought to give my response, as required, and leave the matter with you. And thank you too for a very profitable engaging exchange. GBU.
If I may ask the same question to you that I asked of Mr. Spencer.
What is your understanding of God's FOREKNOWLEDGE and how that relates to Romans 3:10-18 relative to salvation?
The most relevant Scripture is found in Romans 8:29,30, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
In this passage, we see the apostle writing generally about all who belong to the LORD, both of Jew and Gentile ( Romans 8:1, "..no condemnation to THEM IN CHRIST JESUS"). And so Paul writes "to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose" ( Romans 8:28). So vv 29,30 then makes it clear, that from the first moment in executing His Plan to save sinners, right up to the end where He has glorified that sinner with the marvel of His Salvation & Adoption into His family, God's Plan for the sinner was based on something, not of ourselves, but entirely of God.
The word 'foreknew' (from 'foreknowledge') is very clear in meaning; for the Greek itself ('proginosko' means 'to know beforehand, to foresee'). So, as Paul writes, the basis of God predestining his children, is to be conformed to His Son's Image, so He called them (or, invited them) to His redeeming Love. To those who responded, He justified as "not guilty" based on that great substitutionary Work of Jesus on the sinner's behalf and we were glorified with His Spirit renewing us, the Triune God indwelling us, and being brought into God's family. Onto Page 2.
Then the obvious questions: does God use His Foreknowledge in determining who hears the Gospel message, who must respond to His Call to salvation (i.e. to His chosen/elect), and the elimination of all who are not so appointed? This is where the understanding of God's Love must be brought in, for if we believe that God loves all of us, in spite of our apathy to Him and rejection of Him, we can never appreciate the extension of that Love (persistent Love) "who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." If you believe in such a Love that God has, as I do, and that He is indeed an Omniscient God, why then should God detach that Love (which Love is God personified), from anything else He does, even from His Foreknowledge? If some believe that God randomly selects some to be saved, and others not, is this Love in action? Or even, that those whom God as destined to not be saved and to suffer His punishment, is actually God loving them to their eternal death?
Then we could go on to discuss "Total Depravity", or the incapability of a lost, wretched, sin-bound person to even be convicted, repent & turn to God. If we look at Ephesians 2:1-5 or Colossians 2:13, referring to sinners being dead in their sin (spiritually dead), it is clear that our lives are so overcome by sin that we are separated totally from a Holy Righteous God. But can that unregenerate sinner still not, under the working of the Holy Spirit, not realize his folly and turn to the Lord? He might be spiritually dead but his spirit is still alive - if not, he must be physically dead ( James 2:26). So that spiritual deadness doesn't preclude the sinner from still realizing the gravity of his sinful condition, but that deadness keeps him separate from God, until that spark of serious contemplation of his life is taken hold of by the Spirit of God, which leads him to repentance and faith. Onto Page 3.
So, I don't believe that a sinner can be so 'depraved in sin', that he cannot understand the Gospel, his own sinful condition, and in remorse seek the Lord for salvation under the Spirit's moving. And I should add, when that sinner repents, believes in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, embracing Him alone, the Holy Spirit enters him to give re-birth. Re-birth is not given to allow a sinner to repent, rather it is when that total renewal takes place when God by His Spirit resides in us.
I know I've written a lot, but I think that it is all related, so that you can see how my understanding of this important subject is derived. But to your question, my answer is that God in His Perfect Love & Omniscience already knows those who would respond to the Gospel and those who would reject it and Him. I could never conceive that those Holy Traits of God could do otherwise, or else this is not the God I know personally and read about in His Word, nor the Gospel message that drives men and women to reach out to all who would listen. Or else, we should just sit at home, live the Christian life and let God do all the work, since He has already appointed some to salvation & none of those could ever be lost. Blessings.
Thank you for all of your responses. You have indeed waxed eloquently in articulating your understanding of many critical teachings involving the very Nature of God's Judgment and Salvation program.
We do have very fundamental differences in our understanding regarding many aspects of the Nature of God's program for mankind and this creation. These stem I suspect, in large part, from differences in how we understand the way God wrote Bible and how God declares to us in His Word how we are to interpret scripture.
I have desired to be clear regarding my current understanding in these things within the limited space available for communication and am certain that I have fallen far short in my efforts.
I do believe the Bible teaches that we are living in a Day where God is opening up Truth from His Word as never before, as we apply the principles of interpretation which God lays out in His Word. Some of it quite contrary to what has been taught in many churches through the Church Age which I believe has ended ( Matt 24, 1 Peter 4, 2 Thessalonians 2). Some of this Truth can be quite disturbing. But much of it is exceptionally Hopeful as we rapidly approach the Day of Christ's return to finalize His Judgment and Salvation program.
The Book of Jeremiah and most of the Old Testament prophetic books are actually "Todays Newspaper" as God uses His dealings with National Israel and Judah as types and figures of how He is dealing with the Churches and the World in our Day.
It is so important that the Bible Alone and in Its Entirety be our Ultimate and Only authority in this Time.
So may we all continue to search the Bible, humbly comparing scripture with scripture, applying the principles that God articulates in His Word and not those of our own mind, praying constantly that God might lead us into Truth in accordance with His will. And praying also that we might be obedient to that Truth.
May God richly bless you, and all that participate here.
When we consider why Christians, trusting in the same Jesus for salvation, with the same hope of eternal life & using the same Word of God, why should we have such differences in understanding the Scriptures. Of course, the Word does not always set out clear teaching, doctrine or sequence of events, so naturally one would apply their own understanding when putting it all together. Or, if a new believer, committed to & convinced on a particular teaching by the Church Fellowship, or even learning from others & then looking at the Word, these as well can be strong motivators to lean towards a particular teaching.
So, our Bible hermeneutics can be varied depending on factors pressing on us and so this becomes our accepted means of interpretation for the whole Bible. Which one is correct then? We can discuss/argue till blue in the face, but no agreement can be reached, simply because of how we believe the Bible is to be read & understood. So the question: could an online discussion page as this have any benefit particularly in this respect? For me, I value just discussing biblical subjects, since there aren't many believers I've found that are particularly interested in doing so. And secondly, I also learn what other believers read and understand and their reasons for doing so. I then certainly get challenged to read the discussed portions afresh, and I hope I would challenge others also to do likewise; thereby causing us to look deeper into the Word or consider what and why the Bible Book writer was led to write what he did. So thank you again brother and every blessing to you as we together study God's Word having our eyes turned Heavenward looking and waiting for our Blessed Hope.