Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 203

Agreed Ronald.

Hello Fuji

There are many verses in the Bible that show the human nature of Jesus. But also there are many verses that show the divine nature of Jesus. Some of them are many parts of John's gospel (especially the begining) such as John 1:30, John 2:19, John 3:13, John 8:58-59, John 10:30-33, John 14:9-10, John 14:23, John 20:28, Acts 20:28, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, Hebrews 1:8, Matthew 1:22-23, 1 Cor 10:9, Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1, Zechariah 11:12-13, Romans 9:1-5, and many other that I can not recall now. Jesus also accepted people to kneel infront of Him, something that is only permitted for God. Also compare Psalms 102:25-27 where it talks about God to Hebrews 1:10 where it talks about Jesus. Also compare Joel 3:5 to Acts 9:13. Compare Jeremiah 17:9 to Rev 2:23, etc.

So we have two kinds of scripture. One says that Jesus is human, the other says that Jesus is God. So what do we make out of these two? The obvious, that Jesus is the God, one person of the Godhead, who became man.

Lets think it in another way. We know that God loved people so much so that He sacrificed His own son for us. Now lets use another example. Suppose I love my brother and want to help Him. and the only way to help him is to give my own life for him. How does it seem to you that I would sacrifice instead of my own life, my son's life for Him to help Him? Why my son? And not myself? The most sensible thing is that I would sacrifice my own life for him, not somebody's else. That would be very egoistic. Somebody else to suffer for my intention to help somebody that I love? I think you can understand what I trying to say. So what did God do? He sacrificed Himself for us, one person out of the Godhead took on Him our nature, became a man and gave His life for us. So it is God's love that attracts people to Him. It wouldn't be love if He sacrificed somebody else, an innocent person's life, for his intention to save us. I hope I haven't done it so complicated to understand. GBU

Some more comments on deliverance

Acts 9:16 is typical of the overall experience; more or less of Christians; in this case applying to Paul specifically. 2 Timothy 3:12 is in a similar vein along with scores of other scriptures; many from the Lord Himself. The prosperity gospel not only convinces people to take up a sinful lifestyle expecting God to be a cosmic genie; but it also robs a believer of the sanctification process where TRUE spiritual rewards can be attained through being refined as through the fire ( 1 Peter 1:6-7). Therefore whenever calamity or distress occurs we attribute it to Satan; and in some sense do the opposite error of Job who attributed things to God that Satan was allowed to afflict him with and thought God had abandoned him. That view of course is also wrong; but expecting somehow to escape the admonition of 2 Timothy 3:12 seem to ignore the word ALL which doesn't seem too difficult on a surface level to comprehend.

We should remember Christ Himself even when he healed sickness due to sin didn't withhold deliverance; but admonished to go and sin no more ( john 5:14) so that something worse doesn't happen; in the case of that individual likely that would be death and eternal judgment. Let us not forget the blind man whose condition wasn't due to sin in John 9:3; neither he NOR his parents had some generational curse involved in that particular illustration.

How sad to think that someone who is in poverty is somehow not trusting God enough; and no doubt many of these megachurches miss out on opportunities to help individuals in their own midst in needs even if there are charitable efforts where some help is given. I think I can say without too much risk of error that the church is already at the point of judgment overall.

In general therefore true movements of God are not going to have a prominent public display; and we only need to see this in the life of the Lord who wasn't interested in attention from a sideshow.

Deliverance

I have seen evidence of such things in person as well as reading many accounts. What is often backwards is not assessing the legal access the enemy has due to the personal sins of individuals before addressing generational curses or immediately attempting deliverance. The question of whether someone is oppressed or possessed is a stickler as some argue against believers vs nonbelievers in regard to the subject. Either way; of course brings a situation where only God can free someone from those chains.

Of course doctrine is key in order to remain free; as false doctrines allow for sin; which is either unrecognized or deliberately disregarded and it affects leadership. We have a danger not allowing men to have authority over teaching and hence women often are in disobedience and usually have false doctrines. Many of the popular televangelists and deliverance people are have been married multiple times and hence living in adultery and that sort of spirit also affects others who emulate these behaviors.

The love of money also is evident hence the enemy has a field day in convincing people that somehow financial blessings are due from God and people aren't taught how Satan with his principalities has deceived the whole world with the lusts thereof ( Galatians 5:24; 1 John 2:17; also see 2 Timothy 2:1).

I have pointed out the history of the church I first attended where a deliverance occured around 1980 right before I was involved there; it was a traditional Baptist church. The point is things like this happened and but there wasn't a big fanfare or filming of such events. The fear of the Lord also affects the spiritual realm so that where the Spirit is present the enemy must retreat and hence people are readily delivered.

My main point above is something that is recognized by some as to the reason the enemy gets a stronghold. Some learn to grow and mature in their walk who are set free in such churches.

Hi Hijinx. I don't believe there is any Scripture in the Bible to give a clear answer to your questions, but I sense that from a few verses, it is possible to form an opinion or belief that the Earth is the center of the universe & the sun we see rising, passing over us & descending to the West is proof that it revolves around the Earth.

So, you may consider the following verses, even though they don't explicitly state nor support such an erroneous belief: Joshua 10:12-14; 1 Chronicles 16:30; Psalm 93:1 (stablished = fixed, firm); Psalm 96:10; Psalm 104:5; Isaiah 38:7,8.

Page 2.

As you know, Paul took the Gospel to Thessalonika on his second 'missionary' journey ( Acts 17:1-10). So, he expected to be with them, or at least be a part of that great gathering, at Christ's coming. If however, Paul died (or even ourselves die) before Jesus returns, then at His Coming, our bodies, with Paul's, would arise from the grave to be forever with the Lord.

But you ask, 'if we die first and are already in heaven with Jesus, why would there be a need for a hope to be with the Lord since we are with Him already?' A good question, where we don't get a definitive answer, except that believers' spirits go to be with the Lord at death & our bodies remain on the Earth awaiting the resurrection. Why this must be so, can only be speculative on our part; whether those departed spirits reconnect with their transformed bodies, for earthly or heavenly life, I can't say for certain; I don't believe the Scriptures confirm that specifically, except whether absent in the body, we are present with the Lord, or, if confined to this Earth, we can await the Lord's return with expectancy & joy.

Page 1.

Hi again Fuji. 1 Thessalonians 2:19. This ties in with 1 Thessalonians 1:10, "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come". And then to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10.

When we place all these Scriptures together, considering that Paul was addressing the same matter in the one epistle, we can learn that he is speaking about the coming of the Lord. The believers are not only to wait expectantly for the Lord's Coming, but to be careful in their Christian living until that day - that day when they would be transformed & forever to be with their Lord.

But what happens if Paul (or us) die first, before Jesus comes? Though our bodies lie in the grave (or, not even exist in any substantial form), our spirits do return to God Who gave it ( Ecclesiastes 12:7). And we read of people alive beyond the grave ( Luke 16:19-31; Matthew 17:1-3 as examples). But when Jesus returns in the clouds for us, the dead (believers' bodies) arise first to meet him in the air, & those believers still alive will be caught up (Latin, rapio (rapture); Greek, Harpazo) to join the others in this great moment of joy & fulfilment of our hopes & longings to be with our Savior forever. To this end, Paul (in 1 Thessalonians 2:19), is stating that when Jesus comes, he (Paul) will personally rejoice greatly to see his beloved Thessalonian believers also come into Christ's Presence, as his crown for his labors amongst them. Onto Page 2.

Dear Fuji,

Please forgive me, I believe all that I posted, I just do not want anyone to believe what I do unless they study for the truth on their own. I am sorry if I have placed any doubt in you, I just wanted for you to study where you know the truth, not just take what I believe as truth. I enjoyed and agree with all you replied to me. The division on this subject is harsh, I believe God the Father is the one and only God.

Jesus is God's only Son, as John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Jesus our Lord whom God has placed above all that is in heaven and earth. Everything is reliant on God the Father and His glory including Jesus. Jesus did the will of the Father, not His. Jesus was first in God's plan before anything was created. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary.

Jesus had no earthly father therefore He was born without sin same as the first Adam. Is He self-sustaining, all are reliant on God, without God nothing exists including Jesus. My understanding is God the Father is the only eternal being and only in Him is immortality.

Keep studying the Bible and please forgive me if I caused any doubt the truth is in the Bible with prayer and guidance of the Holy Spirit.

God bless,

RLW

OH and Ronald,

One last thing,

We are not Christians because we have perfect doctrine, but because we have been bought and saved by Jesus. So, I do not think that non-trinitarians are not Christians, necessarily. Rather, I think their unitarian doctrines are false teachings. I am sure you feel the same about Trinitarians. I apologize if you misunderstood me, I may have conveyed something I did not mean. I do not think we are to decide if one who professes Jesus as Savior and Lord is saved or not. But I do think we are to stand what one professes as doctrine against the Scriptures to see if the doctrines are true or not as best as we can tell. But we do not need to necessarily be doctrine police to one another, but we may be compelled to defend our own doctrine vigorously, passionately, and with certitude.

Be blessed Ronald.

Page 2.

But when I read other verses to show that Jesus wasn't created from an earthly platform, but came down from Heaven (e.g. John 3:13), then my long-held belief must be thrown into question & I then submit to the whole of Scripture, or else, avoid/reinterpret those verses that could cause me problems. And that is why your quote of John 21:20-24 would be so important to not depend on what we would like to believe (as it makes sense to mind and logic), but what the Lord (& His Word) are actually wanting me to know & believe. And that can only come when we have all the evidence before us, as given & without human coloring. Blessings.

Page 1.

Hello Fuji. If I might share something with you on this very important doctrine. Now this is coming from another aspect of God's Nature; so my question, "Concerning the Holy Spirit, how is God the Father able to send forth His Spirit without Himself becoming deficient in any way? Or, If God is Spirit ( John 4:24), does that mean that God has now come into the world & is therefore absent from His Throne in Heaven?"

Your consideration & response to these questions forms the basis of how God can send forth Himself to fulfil His Will, without suffering deficiency in His Person or thwarting His Plans. Therefore, my belief is that God is able to do this (i.e. sending out His Spirit), just as He is able to send out His Word and give His Word flesh (humanity): John 1:1-14. This is all very mysterious to our human finite minds as we have nothing that we can relate to it, in this world or by human logic. Now, if I could cause my spirit to leave my body & perform my Will elsewhere (which I can't do), then I believe that my body would instantly become lifeless (for the human spirit gives physical life to the body); but not so with God, for He is the Almighty Everlasting One & suffers no limitations in any way, as we do.

Lastly, I appreciated your recent comment & challenge given to us from John 21:20-24: you wrote (in part): "We need to trust what the Bible actually says, not what we think it says". Since both you & I read from the same Scriptures, I find that to trust the Bible in what it says & not what I imagine (or hope) it says, can only first be initiated if we take up the volume of Scripture that speak to us on that subject. If we only had verses declaring the Sonship of Jesus (as you have written about), then I would readily believe that Jesus was a creation of God, through Mary, for the Sacrifice of our sins. Onto Page 2.

Hello Ronald,

Thank you so much for your response to my post. I do not think at all that you are trying to convince of Unitarianism. And I am not trying to convince you of Trinitarianism, truly. But each of us are presenting our beliefs concerning God's oneness and Jesus' deity or lack of it to the best of our ability.

And I thank you for the background of your life experience. I find it interesting that you have not read any sources explaining Unitarianism as what you have said in many posts echo almost verbatim what the tenets are of Unitarianism and how Scripture is interpreted to support these tenets. Even so, I believe what you say on this matter.

I am glad we have had the opportunity to talk through many of these ideas on this forum, not just you and me, but you and others, and me and others. So, we are "iron sharpening iron" and I appreciate growing in understanding your viewpoint.

I don't think that you need to be a member of any of the sects I mentioned, just as I don't think I need to be a member of any sect that adhere to trinitarianism. As Paul said in Gal. 6:15, it is the new creation that truly matters, as only regenerated people can be considered true believers, as Paul seems to teach.

I cannot imagine for myself, growing up in church community as a believer and then spending decades apart from faith in God, then to come back to Him again. This is because I have believed all my life, read of heard the Bible read all my life, and have had fellowship with other believers all my life. But most of all, I have had an uninterrupted relationship with God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all my life. Your experience is just something foreign to me, but many have had experiences similar to yours and many have had experiences similar to mine. God works with humans individually. For me, to be separated from God after knowing Him would be so agonizing. And returning to Him would be so very joyful filled with thankfulness and praise.

Talk more tomorrow.

Dear !DLHenri-2025

Thanks for updating us about Arthur. I will be interceding for him in prayer and for you as I can tell and can understand you are brokenhearted. I have faced this with my own sons, not in the way of Arthur's problems, but with my sons renouncing their faith and being away from the Lord for over 20 years. Many tears have been shed over them, but I continue to entrust them to God and believe that He did not bring them to faith throughout their childhood and teen years to not bring them back around to a renewed faith and walk with Jesus. I believe that God will complete what He began in them, being the Author and Finisher of the faith of those He has chosen to save.

I know that the Lord knows all that is happening to Arthur and all that is within Arthur. I also know that God hears the prayers of those who love Him and whom He has brought to faith and salvation. I pray that God will bring your comfort, rest, and peace concerning Arthur and the situation facing him. And I pray that God will miraculously bring everything about this situation into place for Arthur in a way that truly helps him with his ongoing health problems, his drug addiction, his housing and care needs, and his relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hey Giannis

Thank you, you definitely can contribute I do not doubt your knowledge of Greek. I understand Greek words have several meanings in English like ev can mean in, by, and through. I may have misunderstood but I must say Revelation 3:14 makes more sense to me, the beginning of the creation of God rather than the principalities of the creation of God. Forgive me if I misunderstood.

Do we see in these verses if Jesus is the creator or God? If Jesus is the start of God's plan, all creation was done for what Jesus would become. Who would gather together all things in Christ in heaven and earth, the new creation?

I agree, this day I have begotten you, refers to Jesus's resurrection, not His conception. He is the first begotten of the dead. I believe His conception was at the fulness of times, Ephesians 1:9-11 when God would send His Messiah to do His will. Jesus at the right hand of the Father putting things in order in heaven, earth, and things to be.

So, if the plan of God is based on who Jesus would be it is understandable that things would be done in, by, or through who Jesus would be.

I know I probably don't make sense, thank you for your knowledge of Greek.

God bless,

RLW

(Colossians Part 17):

Colossians 4:6 - Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

The command in Verse 6 is let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, in order that you might know how you ought to answer every man. To speak with grace is to speak under the influence of God's Spirit. It means to speak spiritual, wholesome, kind, sensitive, and truthful.

Seasoned with salt. Now salt served two purposes. Flavor is one. But preventing corruption is the other. They poured salt over the meat or food to prevent corruption of the food. Everything we say should be spoken with grace but seasoned with salt, preservation from corruption. And that we might know how we answer everyone. Everybody requires wisdom to know how to answer. Our words can be very destructive.

Colossians 4:10 - Aristarchus my fellowprisoner saluteth you, and Marcus, sister's son to Barnabas, (touching whom ye received commandments: if he come unto you, receive him;)

Aristarchus is a Greek name for a Jewish native that comes from Thessalonica, recorded for us in Acts 2:4, and Acts 27:2. Aristarchus was a fellowprisoner. He was locked up with Paul. Aristarchus greets you.

And next he says Marcus greets you. This is John Mark. This is the one that wrote the gospel of Mark, and also the one that went on the first missionary journey with Paul and Barnabas.

This is all I have to share in Colossians. I will be going over 1 Thessalonians next. We are getting into some shorter book, so this is moving along a little faster.

Blessings to you all in Christ Jesus!!!

(Colossians Part 16):

Colossians 3:21 - Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.

To provoke means to irritate. It has to do with punishing someone for something they didn't do just for the sake of punishing them. It's very frustrating to them, very irritating.

Colossians 4:3 - Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

With praying also for us, that God would open to us a door of utterance, and door means a symbol of opportunity. He's praying for opportunity to speak. To speak what? To speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds, or in chains. He says I'm in prison for this very thing, to get an opportunity to speak the mysteries of Christ.

Hello Ronald,

Always nice to hear from you. Sorry for the late reply. I do want to thank you for sharing your understanding on this. I also want to thank you for continuing on in the studies that I am putting together and sharing. If I remember correctly, you have shared your view on this before with me so I don't see anything new that would warrant a response, at least nothing that we haven't already discussed in the past. We do have a different understanding, but that's okay. I will always respect your view and the things you have to share. Right now, I am not able to agree with what you are telling me while at the same time believing in the deity of Christ. It would be contradictive of me to do so.

Blessings to you also, my brother!

Reading 1st and 2nd Thessalonians , can anyone help with 1st Thessalonians chapter 2 verse 19 ? If when we die we go to heaven and are in the presence of Jesus , what does verse 19 mean ? Why put ' at his coming ' if we are with Jesus in heaven before he returns to earth ? Surely Paul would be in heaven with Jesus the same as us ? So why would Paul's hope ( which is hope for a future event surely ) be : ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming ?

I hope you will please excuse me for commenting on your messages that were not addressed to me , I enjoyed reading them and I am in total agreement with what you professed in them . However , what you say in your messages is not evidence or proof of Jesus bring co eternal with God Himself . I cannot come to that conclusion based on what you have said in those messages . If Jesus is co eternal with God then God can't have created Jesus can He ? Jesus is now immortal for sure and God has placed everything under Jesus's Kingship .

Is Jesus self sustaining , able to exist outside of God's power ? Was Jesus always self sustaining and able to exists outside of God's power ? If Jesus is co eternal and self sustaining why is he referred to as God's Son ? Father's ( and mother's ) bring sons into being , therefore at some point their sons don't exist . However remember Romans chapter 4 verse 17 ? God calleth those things which be not as though they were . Keep in mind that this is not a new thing that God suddenly starts doing , why would that be the case ? It stands to reason that Paul is talking to people who already understand this concept . God is beyond space and time but He speaks to us in ways He knows we will understand . He lowers Himself for our benefit because He loves us and wants us to understand as much as we are able .

Hi GiGi,

I did not see your first reply sorry; I do not want to change your trinitarian view of God I do not have the right; I am just a man. I am not a member of any of the sects you have listed, I have not heard of most of them. Just to let you know a little of my past. When I was young, I went to an Advent Christian church. They believed and taught the Trinity, I was there until I was in my early 20s.

I spent most of my life in the world away from church and was not drawn back to God until the mid-90s. My wife was attacked by demonic forces and it was about a two-year battle. I was brought to my knees, and I saw and experienced things I did not believe were real, it would take a book to tell all that happened in those 2 or so years but God got my attention.

I started reading and studying my Bible again and I went to many different churches. I have been alone now for many years; do not have children and my family is all past. All the churches close to me have the same view as yours, if I do not believe in the Trinity, I am not a Christian and am not welcome.

I do not watch blogs or TV preachers so when I post it is only what I have received from the Bible in prayer, not other people's teaching and I am sorry if it disturbs you. Like I said all I know is to tell the truth as I know it. I love God and what He did for me in sacrificing His Son to save somebody like me.

God bless,

RLW

Then is God going to take your free will away when he locks Lucifer up for the thousand years before he lets him loose again, if there's no evil, you will have no choice to choose?

I have a question 400 years ago the church was under the impression that the Earth was at the center of the universe and the sun went around the Earth my question is where in the Bible did it give them the idea that the Earth was in the center what verse or what chapter or where in the Bible did they give them in this idea or did it say it or did it just kind of lead to believe this if anybody knows would you please tell me where to find this? Thank you very much.

Ronald, 2/2

If the above interpretation troubles you, we can see another verse, Hebrews 1:5, "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"

What is meant by "this day I begotten you"? Does it refer to Jesus' physical birth? Lets see how Paul explains it in Acts 13:32-33, "32And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,33God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee" So it is obvious that Paul considers that that birth" refers to Jesus' resurrection and not to His physical birth.

So lets go back to that "firstborn from the dead". I think it gets quite clear that it means that Jesus is the first to be resurrected from the dead. The rest to be resurrected is God's people, either now spiritually or later physically.

Hi Ronald, 1/2

Since you were talking about the grk, I think I can contribute to this discussion.

Rev 3:14, "...the beginning(in grk "arche") of the creation of God;". The word "arche" has many meanings. It may mean "the begining" but it may mean something that is on top of all the others, such as a "principality".

For exmple, Ephessians 6:12, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities(in grk archae), against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.". The grk for "principalities" in this verse is "archae" which is plural for "arche". Similarly Colossians 1:16, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities(in grk archae), or powers: all things were created by him, and for him"

So we see that in both verses above the KJB corectly tranaslates the word "archae" as "principalities but wrongly translates it as "begining" in Rev 3:14. The grk "en" in Colossians may mean "in" but also "through". And the later is the right meaning here.

Col 1:17, "kai autos(and He) esti(is) pro panton(before everything), kai ta panta(and everything) en auto(in or through Him) sunesteke(are kept together)"

Lets see another verse that troubles a lot of people. Colossians 1:18, "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning(in grk arche), the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.". Here the grk "arche" is corectly translated as "begining". The question is: what is really meant by "firstborn from the dead"? Many interpretation of this are given. The one that agrees with all the above verses that clearly show the divinity of Jesus is that Jesus(as a human) is the first child of God who was taken out from the dead (dead people spiritually). Who are the rest of those that are born by God? Us, His brothers and sisters. See pt 2

Hi Fuji,

Thank you for your well-said reply, we must study, 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. This site is wonderful as long as we are respectful and honestly care for each other we can discuss anything in the Bible. I hope this inspires you to study, it warrants the study of both sides for your understanding. It is a subject that may take a long time in prayer and study, do it with open ears to the Holy Spirit.

God bless,

RLW

Hi GiGi,

Thank you, you do not upset me and I hope I do not upset you, I understand how sensitive this subject is. The only way I know is, to be honest and say what is in my heart and what the Scriptures and my prayers have revealed to me. I am not trying to change anyone's beliefs or understanding. I have learned a lot since I have been on this site because of the brothers and sisters here who are willing to share their understanding in love and inspire each other to study, not an I'm right and you are wrong attitude.

I hope you feel you can discuss anything with me in love and respect, I am in my 70s and pretty tough-skinned. As long as our discussions are done in love and inspire each other to study even if we differ, we have the same objective to learn the truth.

My prayers are for you and your family as well.

God bless,

RLW

This all seems so logical to me , if Jesus was co eternal with God Himself then why is Jesus called the Son of God . God is a God of order , we see that in His Word and in His creation . Father's exist before their children do , if Jesus was co eternal wouldn't he be called God's brother ? That sounds ridiculous I know but surely if Jesus was equal and co eternal to God Jesus wouldn't be God's Son , Jesus would have a title that would reflect his status as an equal co eternal being . Father's begat sons , sons proceed from their fathers body , sons bear the image of their father , sons carry in themselves part of their father . Logical progression , this order was invented/ created by God . Children also carry part of their mother in them but ultimately , because of how women were created , being part of the man , it all goes back to the ultimate source of all life male or female , that is God Himself , if God created everything then He really did ! He created everything , everything means everything . He is the only self sustaining entity in the entire universe . Everything in existence only exists because He permits it .

Mystery of God-light

God asks Job."Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof?( Job 38.19). Under the everlasting covenant God separated light from darkness. "And God saw the light, that it was good" (Ge.1.4-5) What is good is from everlasting to everlasting."And God divided the light from the darkness./And God called the light Day".Consequently whatever day specified in the Bible must fall under the Law of the Spirit. Ancient of days signifies it. Under the covenant the 144,000 that stand on Mount Sion is waiting for the Marriage of the Lamb. "And the temple of God was opened in heaven." (Rev.11.19) When it is done we shall have as mentioned here," And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." The city where light dwelleth is holy and is called the light of the Lamb.

Thus there is a way marked for the light, which we call as heavenly places and the direction is from east to west. The Spirit points the direction from which our blessings begin. "And a river went out of Eden to water the garden" and Adam was put in the garden, east of Eden. All subsequent movement of man is further east till the great river Euphrates is dried up."and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared."(Rev.16.12) Thus we have east as beginning and the ending of a way before tabernacle of God with man could commence.

Consider the saying of Jesus,"And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven./ But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness:" (Matt.8.11-12) God asks Job,"Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all." (J8.18) Man cannot measure the wisdom of God. He doesnot know the bread of the earth. Yet ignoramus speaks of third heaven as if he knows it.

Hello again, Ronald,

Please do not be upset by me saying these things. I am trying to interact with you in a way that is transparent and honest. I don't think that there needs to be complete agreement on all things on this forum and respect that people differ. But I am glad that now I have a better context to place your viewpoint within the stream of those who claim to be Christian believers.

May God bless you tonight and always. Your postings have cause me to dig deeper into viewpoints I was unaware of before I came on here. I think it is good to be thus informed so that conversations can be surrounded with better understanding and our responses can be more helpful.

Hello

I was just thinking of you today and considering some of what you have said in the past about viewing God as only one Person and that Jesus is not God in the flesh. I have wanted to better understand your view, as I have not encountered it before in all the years of my life. I found information on sects that deny the divinity of Jesus and these came up:

Jehovah's Witness,

Christadelphians

The Way International

Worldwide Church of God

Church of Christ (some)

I also found information on Socianism and Unitarianism. Perhaps you associate more with these two than the ones listed above. I reviewed the information on the history of Socianism and Unitarianism along with what is generally professed. These beliefs are very similar to what you have put forward in the past and I was able to read the biblical interpretation used to support these views.

And then, here you are tonight responding to Jesse on just the beliefs I was reading about. So all of this is timely. I am glad to find sources that explain your viewpoints more fully as you have not done so here due to limitations of such a forum.

Even so, the information does not change my trinitarian view of God, nor the deity of Jesus and the Biblical texts that show that Jesus is worshipped as God (for only God is to be worshipped). I hope we can continue to discuss these topics over time. I am confident that the Lord will lead us to a more refined truth from His Word.

Please know that I pray for you often along with so many others on this forum. I think of you fondly even though I do not agree with you on these matters and think that someone who denies the Trinity and the deity of Jesus is speaks false teaching that I believe leads to another gospel and another Jesus than what Scripture attests to.

Ronald, I say this not to be harsh with you, nor to berate you, nor to discourage you from presenting your viewpoint. Rather, I just want to convey to you that your view of God and Jesus disturbs me greatly