Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 194

Part 2

Apostle Paul is telling us that the Ten Commandments does not save us, It condemns us .

2 Corinthians 3:7

But if theministrationof death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

The law brings us to death.

Romans 7:5

For when we were intheflesh,themotionsofsins, which were bythelaw, did work in our members to bring forthfruitunto death.

We are not saved by following the Ten Commandments, we are saved by believing the gospel of grace.

Galatians 2:16

Knowing that a man is not justified bytheworksofthelaw, but bythefaithofJesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified bythefaithofChrist, and not bytheworksofthelaw: for bytheworksofthelaw shall nofleshbe justified.

Apostle Paul is telling us not to sin in the flesh and is call out the sin in the flesh.

Galatians 5:19-23

19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

No man on earth can follow all of the Ten Commandments, that's why Jesus Christ nail it on the cross.

Colossians 2:14

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way,nailing it to his cross

Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 the Holy Spirit keeps us from sinning and the Word of God cleanses us from sin.

Should a Pastor have a payroll in a church ? ?

Jesus as a preacher possible had a job as a carpenter with His stepfather Joseph.

Matthew 13:55

Is not this thecarpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Jesus as a preacher does not believe in a church to sell goods for profit.

Matthew 21:12

And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of themoneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

Jesus as a preacher also paid his taxes .

Matthew 17:24-27

24And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?

25He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

26Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.

27Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

The gospel of grace has no payroll, it's free.

Part 2

Apostle Paul the preacher was making tents for income.

Acts 18:3

And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they weretentmakers.

Apostle Paul warns the preacher Timothy of the money being collected for the poor Jews in the Kingdom.

1 Timothy 6:10

For the love ofmoneyis the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

I think it's best not to judge a Pastor of how much he takes in for a payroll. If a Pastor doesn't want to get judge, it would be better to have a job besides the tithing payroll , like Apostle Paul.

Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

May we pray for our Pastors in Christ.

Part 1

The most dangerous thing in the Bible is being deceived by false prophets, false apostles, false accusers, false witness and false Christs . Satan will use anyone to do his work in deception.

Jesus warns his Twelve Disiples of people that will say bad things against them.

Matthew 5:11

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against youfalsely, for my sake.

Jesus warns the Twelve Disiples of false prophets.

Matthew 7:15

Beware offalseprophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

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Jesus warns the Twelve Disiples of false witness.

Matthew 15:19

For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts,falsewitness,

Jesus warns the Twelve Disiples of false prophets.

Matthew 24:11

And manyfalseprophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Jesus warns the Twelve Disiples of false Christs.

Matthew 24:24

For there shall arisefalseChrists, andfalseprophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Jesus warns the Twelve Disiples of false witness.

Mark 10:19

Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bearfalsewitness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Jesus warns the Twelve Disiples of false Christs and false prophets.

Mark 13:22

ForfalseChrists andfalseprophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Jesus warns the Twelve Disiples of false witness.

Luke 18:20

Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bearfalsewitness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

Ray, in Christ Jesus

Part 2

Apostle Paul warns us of false witness.

Romans 13:9

For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bearfalsewitness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Apostle Paul said that we will be calls false witnesses for God in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15:15

Yea, and we are foundfalsewitnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

Apostle Paul warns us of false apostles.

2 Corinthians 11:13

For such arefalseapostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

Apostle Paul warns us of false Jews in the ministry.

2 Corinthians 11:26

In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils amongfalsebrethren;

Apostle Paul said that false Jews will spy and try to put us in bondage inwhich is the law.

Galatians 2:4

And that because offalsebrethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

Apostle Paul warns us of false science and vain babblings.

1 Timothy 6:20

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of sciencefalsely so called:

Apostle Paul warns us of false accusers.

2 Timothy 3:3

Without natural affection, trucebreakers,falseaccusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

Part 3

Apostle Paul warns us of falsely accuse of our good conversation in Christ.

1 Peter 3:16

Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed thatfalsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

Apostle Peter in the Tribulation warn his Jewish followers of false prophets.

2 Peter 2:1

But there werefalseprophets also among the people, even as there shall befalseteachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Saint John warns us in the Tribulation of false prophets.

1 John 4:1

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because manyfalseprophets are gone out into the world.

Saint John warns the Jewish followers of false prophets.

Revelation 16:13

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of thefalseprophet.

We are in the Church age of grace, we do not have prophets to deliver us the word of God and we do not a apostles to give us another revelation to add to the Bible.

Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

Apostle Paul is our Apostle for today

Part 1

The Gospel of the Kingdom is for the Jews and the Gospel of Grace is for the Gentiles.

We start with the Gospel of the Kingdom on earth for the Jews for the New Jerusalem.

Matthew 4:23

And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching thegospelofthekingdom, and healing all mannerofsickness and all mannerofdisease among the people.

The gospel of the kingdom required

Matthew 24:14

And thisgospelofthekingdomshall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall repentance.

Jesus Christ told the Twelve Disiples not to go to the Gentiles with the gospel of the kingdom.

Matthew 10:5-7

5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Jesus Christ job was to minister to the Jews for in the gospel of the kingdom.

Romans 15:8

Now I say that Jesus Christ was aministerofthecircumcisionforthetruth of God,toconfirmthepromises made untothefathers:

Ray. In Christ Jesus Corinthians 15:1-4

Part 2

We start with the Gospel of Grace that was revealed to Apostle Paul for the Gentiles to believe the finished work of the cross. Jesus Christ died for our sins and was buried and rose again the third day according to the scriptures.

There is no repentance for sin in the gospel of grace , we believe only . 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

Acts 20:24

But noneofthese things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have receivedofthe Lord Jesus, to testify thegospelofthegraceofGod.

The Twelve Apostles agreed to let Apostle Paul spread the gospel of grace to the Gentiles.

Galatians 2:9

And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived thegracethatwasgivenunto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

The gift of the gospel of grace was given to Apostle Paul from God.

Ephesians 3:7

Whereof Iwasmade a minister, according to the gift of thegraceof Godgivenunto me by the effectual working of his power.

Apostle Paul labor more than anything with the gospel of grace.

1 Corinthians 15:10

But by thegraceof God I am what I am: and hisgracewhich was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but thegraceof God which was with me.

Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

The Gentiles and a few Jews became Christian first in Antioch. They call Apostle Paul because the Gentiles wanted the gospel of grace and Paul was the man for the Gentiles.

Acts 11:20-26

20And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching theLordJesus.

21And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.

22Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch.

23Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord.

24For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.

25Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul:

26And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Apostle Paul share the gospel of grace to Agrippa . Agrippa always believed the gospel.

Acts 26:28

Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be aChristian.

Peter is writing to his Jewish followers to not be ashamed of being a Christian in believing the gospel of grace.

1 Peter 4:16

Yet if any man suffer as aChristian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

Peter writes to his Jewish followers and tells them that Apostle Paul has the gospel of grace.

2 Peter 3:15

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our belovedbrotherPaulalso according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

Today we are being attacked by believing the gospel of grace as a Christian.

Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

Christian believe the gospel of grace

Why should we follow Paul ? ? But what about following Jesus ? ?

All Twelve Disiples followed Jesus earthly ministry in the four gospels for the kingdom of heaven on earth.

Matthew 4:19

And he saith unto them,Followme, and I will make you fishers of men.

Mark 1:18

And straightway they forsook their nets, andfollowed him.

Luke 5:11

And when they had brought their ships to land, they forsook all, andfollowed him.

John 1:37

And the two disciples heard him speak, and theyfollowed Jesus.

Why should we follow Apostle Paul ? ?

Jesus Christ in Heaven did say that Apostle Paul was a chosen vessel for the Gentiles.

Acts 9:15

But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is achosenvesselunto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Jesus Christ is the author of the whole Bible.

Hebrews 12:2

Looking unto Jesus theauthorand finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jesus Christ wants us to follow Apostle Paul's epistle for doctrine and Salvation.

1 Corinthians 11:1

Be yefollowers ofme, even as I also am of Christ.

Apostle Paul's doctrine is from Jesus Christ in Heaven.

Romans 16:17

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to thedoctrinewhich ye have learned; and avoid them.

Apostle Paul said that we can always learn from the Old Testament and the caring down kingdom of gospel in the four gospels. The death of Jesus Christ started the New Testament

Hebrews 9:16

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of thetestator.

Romans 15:4

For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for ourlearning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

I follow Apostle Paul's epistle in Jesus Christ for Doctrine and Salvation.

Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

Adam rules the earth and the air .

Genesis 1:26

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Satan took over the earth and the air, when Adam sinned against God.

Matthew 4:8

Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all thekingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Lucifer used to be a beautiful Angel of Light. Now , he is called Satan the Devil.

Isaiah 14:12

How art thou fallen from heaven, OLucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Satan is still dangerous to us right now.

2 Corinthians 2:11

LestSatanshould get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Satan can transform himself into a beautiful light .

2 Corinthians 11:14

And no marvel; forSatanhimself is transformed into an angel of light.

Satan can hurt the earthly body .

2 Corinthians 12:7

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger ofSatanto buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Satan's followers are in the churches deceiving the mass . Wide is the gate to destruction.

Philippians 3:18

(For many walk,ofwhom I have told youoften, and now tell you even weeping, thatthey aretheenemiesofthecrossofChrist:

The Bible needs to be studied and taken seriously for the truth of the Gospel of Grace.

2 Timothy 2:15

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing thewordoftruth.

Romans 1:16

ForIamnotashamedof the gospel of Christ: foritis the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

The three harvest.

1. Barley , Jesus Christ

Ruth 1:22

So Naomi returned, and Ruth the Moabitess, her daughter in law, with her, which returned out of the country of Moab: and they came to Bethlehem in the beginning ofbarleyharvest.

2 Kings 4:42

And there came a man from Baalshalisha, and brought the man of God bread of the firstfruits, twenty loaves ofbarley, and full ears of corn in the husk thereof. And he said, Give unto the people, that they may eat.

2. Wheat , Second Coming

John 12:24

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn ofwheatfall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

1 Samuel 6:13

And they of Bethshemesh were reaping theirwheatharvest in the valley: and they lifted up their eyes, and saw the ark, and rejoiced to see it.

Matthew 13:30

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather thewheatinto my barn

3. Grapes , Wrath of God

Revelation 14:18

And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for hergrapesare fully ripe.

Isaiah 5:2

And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forthgrapes, and it brought forth wildgrapes.

Mark 15:23

And they gave him to drinkwinemingled with myrrh: but he received it not.

Matthew 26:29

But I say unto you, I will notdrinkhenceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when Idrinkit new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

The kingdom on earth will definitely be for Israel, but we may have some part in it. The body of Christ is the grace age church that's in glory.

1 Thessalonians 2:13-

13For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

14For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

15Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

16Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

The wrath of God will be at His Second Coming and that is the Tribulation.

The Gospel of Grace.

5For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

6And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.

7So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.

8For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.

9For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come

Wrath to come is the Tribulation of the Second coming of Jesus Christ.

Thank you bro. Richard for all that you have presented, specifically focussing on the conduct & ministry of Christ's Church. I've appreciated following your thoughts, even as you have personally seen & experienced much of what you have addressed. Whenever I consider the formation of the NT Church & to what I see today functioning as Christ's Body, I see how far we have drifted from the simple & essential. Not saying that there should not be differences at all, as many factors would contribute to the difference between the 1st century Church to the 21st century, including congregation numbers, different types of pressure faced, government requirements, etc. So, differences there will be, but when we depart from the essentials & the simplicity in Christian living & gathering together, then difficulties arise & the further away we drift from God's Plan.

To this end, in the matter of Church leadership, as you've shared: even though I don't particularly see any one Church gathering as perfectly conforming to the Lord's pattern of leadership, behavior, and belief; in my association with various groups, I've found that the 'open' Brethren Assemblies seem to follow most closely to the above. I don't attend one because of distance & probably my wife wouldn't join me anyway, but in their meetings, I usually sense how the early Church would have been organized & behaved. They don't have pastors, only elders & deacons (the elders fulfilling pastoral duties, with the care of the believers, home visitiation, counselling, etc.). Music is limited to a piano or organ, the congregation, as led by the Spirit, can share a Scripture, a Word, a testimony for edification to all, and a Bible message from an Elder. No salaries are given (the elders need to be working men), all other service (for maintenance of Church or grounds) is voluntary, as believers are able or qualified; and the only expense is toward payment of taxes & dues, as well as missionary support. Thanks again.

Brother Jesse These postings is a treasure. I've started a file with them beginning with Matthew for further study and sharing.

I thank God for blessing you with the endurance to do this!!

God bless

Brother Jesse, I join with bro S. Spencer in appreciation of all your hard work going through the NT & picking out certain verses that needed clarification from the original language - which of course, must be very helpful to the serious Bible student.

Yes, I remember the reason why you began this series of notes, but I suspect that the person who questioned you & enquired further from you, is doubtless amazed by the extent of your response. I'm sure that even a few examples of why the KJV, indeed any translation into any other language from the original, can never be exact, is simply because of the nature of language itself & the ideas & culture behind them. As well, how we read it in our language is very often colored by our own perceptions or predispositions, making the original given text at variance to what we ought to be reading & understanding. I too, will always stick with the KJB, but your efforts have indeed added much more to my understanding & appreciation of the Word, as the actual intended message from the writers are revealed - and all these harmonize with the rest of Scripture. Blessings brother & be encouraged further to complete this huge task.

Brother Spencer,

You are welcome and thank you for sticking with this from the beginning. And may the Lord continue to bless you also! I should be ready to start posting on 2 Thessalonians, hopefully by tomorrow. It's been quite the journey thus far and I am grateful for you and a few others who have been following along and giving me the encouragement to see this through. If it wasn't for you and those who have been blessed by some of the things I've shared, I would have probably stopped way back in Matthew after the individual who asked me to do this falsely accused me of discrediting the Holy Spirit and then left this forum all together.

God Bless!!!

Thanks again Brother Jesse.

God bless you.

The Gospel of Grace.

5For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

6And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.

7So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.

8For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.

9For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come

Wrath to come is the Tribulation of the Second coming of Jesus Christ

How much is too much (continued)

Here and where I used to fellowship in Pittsburgh the Pastors were not caught up in materialism; but many in the congregations were affluent. As a rule we should first look at any Pastors who are obviously excessive in their own lives with fancy cars; lavish homes; etc. This is usually limited to those Megachurch or Televangelist enterprises; where excess is lauded because everyone wants to find the path glittered with gold (sometimes literally ignoring the stuff blown surreptitiously through ventilation systems).

I don't think we can dogmatically say a Pastor has to work to support himself in a secular position; but some whose ministries are struggling could look at that as a way for ministry and work part time if needed. Paul certainly worked as a tentmaker and with all the work he did establishing churches as an Apostle he certainly could and probably should have been less burdened but he did this not to burden others to set an example. Certainly others in leadership could work as well; in the case of Jesus and the Disciples with Christ physically on earth and daily miracles it was a unique time of harvest. It is certainly possible Christ had some savings for himself after working until 30 even without having a place to lay his head during his traveling ministry; although I can't prove it-maybe the same could be said for the Disciples for a time. At any rate women would help to assist in such matters (and Judas helped himself; sadly).

A congregation has to give with a cheerful heart tithes and offeriengs. They also need to examine if they are using their time and resources as God intends; if God wants them to work more or less to support the Body of Christ in that local church. The more we fellowship and share things (in today's world having someone over for lunch; helping them to move or assisting with a brother in financial need) are all things I have done and seen personally. What we have is God's and for Him

Money-how much is too much (or right) for Pastors

In my church the Pastor was voted in an increase in a salary paid from the offerings. His wife happens to work a full time job during the week so although I support him for being a good Pastor if push came to shove I wouldn't object if he had to take a pay reduction next year the budget is discussed. His grandchild does have a chronic illness that no doubt is a factor in justifying this raise. The church was able to set aright some errors going back a few years with a person who had to be removed misappropriating funds; at least in part due to an illness affecting his mind.

Let us say as with our church there are 40 members; and each pays ten percent. I am not sure what the numbers are; but this is probably a fairly typical size of many congregations today. Let us say that is 40 dollars times 40 people that makes 1600 dollars a week times 50 or so weeks for about 80K a year. Probably for most places including where I fellowship it is bare bones not allowing for too much in the way of repairs; maybe just enough to get by. Overall I know there is more probably due to a few more generous people and occasionally larger crowds. Again; proportions of overall budgets are probably more important than the amount of money overall. I don't think our church has more than 10 percent for missions and that is likely typical. If we have 100 grand a year that is only 10K for missionaries; which may spread further in other nations but obviously is very restrictive; our church happens to sponsor about 10 that I know of; at least one hasn't been heard from for a while. Certainly private contributions are vital as I have tried to support on and off with limited finances the past few years.

My Pastor can't even remember the last time he went out to eat. Again; this shows his integrity; as many splurge weekly for meals and use some money for congregations in that capacity as well. Would be nice on occasion.

More thoughts on money-how much is too much?

Our Pastor of late has studied a couple books related to finances; one of the best I suppose on discipline overall is Larry Burquette.

One of the big issues in terms of a church budget is the building itself and the much less expensive alternative of sharing the rent of a building with others (or owning a church that is rented to others). That again gets into the "guilt by association"; if we know another congregation is teaching heresy I argue that we should remove ourselves (better yet find out beforehand who we rent to).

Those congregations that can work together can cetainly multiply exponentially what can be done in the community. I have seen this occur in a different situation where a church worked with a different congregation (maybe more than one) across town in a Pittsburgh church (I suppose I can't mention the name here).

This begs the question why such arrangements can't be made first or at least sought out before making agreements with others.

Issues with musical groups in our church who I also won't mention has allowed for some entertainers not singing about the Lord to be featured who thankfully were resisted by some. That involves letting another person or organization run functions who we haven't monitored carefully another subject matter.

Knowing personally a missionary (probably several) that have overcrowded churches due to budgeting issues and other factors holding things up and seeing the buildings (or basic frames thereof) that are much more crude than ones we are used to helps bring things into focus.

I would say that a top priority should involve a basic explanation or review of where church spending goes and participation of members as to making certain decisions. Wisdom of those with business experience is different than RUNNING a church as a business.

My next segment will focus on the Pastor himself and attempt to find a scriptural basis on what his salary should be.

Further thoughts on guilt by association

Before going any further it certainly needs to be said if we are judging things according to scriptural standards we can expect God to hold us to the same standards. If we are embracing sin we likely are drawn around us to others who also make excuses for their behavior and that certainly is how much acceptance of evil starts.

An immature believer will more often than not be transparent about sin as the Spirit travails in their spirit. It seems a trend that those considered more mature believers talk less and less about sin; when in reality the more we truly grow in faith the more sin is revealed. Confession of sin should help the Body of Christ if we look at it properly.

All aberrant movements start off with either a real or preconceived notion of unfairness; and those against scriptural teachings are the same way; society at large works against the conscience He has given men (see Romans 1; Psalm 19); while those in the church are held under stricter judgment and find ways to approach scripture to justify their behaviors. Such attitudes I have argued before make such individuals under great danger; and it is better to walk away from the church for a time than remain and try to conform the Word into a box of your own making. Wanting to have people stay in fellowship rather than taking proper discipline and the risk of losing members cannot be undertaken without error spreading like gangrene ( 2 Tim. 2:17). We can't worry about the world thinking we are too judgmental; intolerant or mean and afford to disregard jealously guarding the flock and the integrity of the Word. This doesn't mean of course that we ACT judgmental; mean or harsh unless heretical teaching is being forced among the congregation; whenever possible we tach with gentleness ( Titus 3:2 and many other verses on such longsuffering).

In short apostasy usually is associated with the desire for money (offerings); or prestige (praise of others)

More on women in the church and heresy

If we look to what was considered at the time to be of the devil in the entertainment industry; namely the Beatles sadly it puts to shame the egos of those who are in what I often call the Christian Music Industry. At the inception; no doubt there was a spirit of rebellion in their souls but they came forth wearing suits and ties; bringing a very modest boxed lunch to eat (imagine that today) and keeping their lyrics family friendly for the most part. Of course time went on and they became more hippie in appearance (forgot to mention earlier cropped haircuts); more demonic in the implications of their lyrics and finally were involved in Eastern mysticism showing pictures of all sorts of nefarious characters on their album cover (I'll leave it nameless once again) where famous dictators and a couple Satanists were featured as they got into their LSD phase. As is common among musicians in particular all four members were divorced and remarried while their spouse was alive; in McCartneys case his first wife died and his second he divorced which is allowed Biblically.

In the same light female "Pastors" often are along with others in the Megachurch world divorced and remarried. I hold personally to the belief that if a spouse is alive remarriage isn't permissible; but whatever one espouses as to the meaning of Matthew 5 and 19 in such matters clearly many do this for unscriptural reasons; those other than a cheating spouse if we take that as the meaning of those verses. As a sidenote I heard an interesting comment the other day; that a church hosts a marriage ceremony but never a divorce. Interesting concept...

At any rate; the concept of "filthy lucre" is in Titus 1:11 and THREE other places in scripture. That word isn't used today but it has the proper nasty implications in KJV. Women preachers and often musicians that are scantily clothed are more often than not scanty in any scriptural meat for their flock.

2 Timothy 4:3-4

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Verse 3 in this passage indicates a congregation somehow manipulates church officials in leadership to bring in new false teachers.

For this to occur of course there has to be a weakness among leadership which could include a lone Pastor who doesn't have anyone or enough Deacons and Elders under him who suddenly dies or cannot continue in ministry or called elsewhere; etc.

To go back further much of today's theological instruction has become compromised. Famous institutions have fought back in some instances (Geneva College being one that comes to mind); I won't bother researching those who now teach heresy who used to be trustworthy.

One major factor today of course is the increasing acceptance of female "Pastors"; again I won't mention anyone but a famous pastor who recently retired has a man and woman now teaching his megachurch. 2 Corinthians 11:3 says

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. I am not aware of any women who are teaching even all basic tenants of scripture correctly; if they are of course they will realize quickly that a woman is not to teach or have authority over a man ( 1 Tim. 2:12) and quit that role. This is not to say that many brilliant authors or public speakers or evangelists can't be women but even there some limitations exist. The other day I sought counsel from an older lady in my church about a letter I was about to write to my cousin in regard to her soon to perish mother who isn't saved and my inability to attend the funeral for that reason who advised me to hold off and sensing the Lord in her counsel I followed her advice. To be continued

Guilt by Association Part 2

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

( 1 Cor. 6:9-11)

This section of 3 verses pretty much sums up what culture is promoting these days. To be delivered from sin and live a new life doesn't mean we no longer sin but we are affected by the grieving of the Spirit when we turn our backs on God and don't live a lifestyle characterized in this manner again. The question as to whether we are dealing with a brother who is backslidden or someone deceived as to being saved at all means of course we have to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith; again that is another topic.

Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Here we see what is sadly often the case; those calling themselves Christians in order to increase their own financial gain cowtow to those who are obviously in rebellion and themselves often are deceived while deceiving others ( 2 Timothy 3:13).

How sad that the opposite doesn't occur more; that those who do believe the truth invite the lame; blind; poor and other miserable wretches of society to eat with them and spend time with these individuals out of concern for their souls. It is much more likely among individual parishioners than pastoral leadership in most places today; for if their isn't financial incentive for many in leadership there are ego perks involved; whether in meetings with other Pastors or doing community service.

More in next part

Guilt by Association: False brethren among the flock.

Matthew 13:30 states

"Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

In this example it appears that certain false brethren remain unknown until the time of the actual judgment of God. This is very depressing to think about but we can attribute it to one of the mysteries of God. As to those we know are not living according to what they profess; or alternatively are twisting scriptures around to justify their behaviors we cannot simply stand by. There are also those who do believe and are trapped in sin for a time; and others who don't believe but are attending. This subject is focused on those more involved; and certainly those who are part of the church membership.

Error can start from the bottom and work its way up; or start with a Pastor gradually veering away from the truth. I would say the first bulwark against such things is vigilant prayer which no doubt prevents many things we are unaware of from occuring much more often.

The first thing that causes error is men's hearts; where they want to find an excuse to accommodate sin; whether it is that of themselves or that of their friends. Error by itself is like poison; it is much more readily consumed in an already toxic prepared environment. Once the leadership has bought into a lie it is often too late to do anything about it because if God takes one person out another is likely to take over with an even worse heresy. Error usually starts out with a small number of individuals who no doubt are socially accepted in the congregation. Let's face it someone with a wild countenance and bad hygiene isn't likely to sway others toward their error; it is the well groomed; well mannered and involved church member who has the most influence. Weaknesses inside the camp start the process

Guilt by Association

Ministries today are rife with false doctrines or shallow presentations of the Gospel message often lacking the fear of the Lord and true repentance in their presentations. This would involve preachers as well as musicians but certainly would also include so called "Christian comedians" or even businesses that tout such values. If there isn't that sort of error going on; then those who we hang out with whether casually or in more formal settings often seem to be ignored when they are clearly going astray; and I'd bet my lunch that is often due to financial benefits involved with these engagements. We also can look within a congregation and see many who continue to assemble with those who are known to be in sinful lifestyles whether parishioners or sadly those in leadership roles. That is a focus for another commentary.

As for those we associate with I see no need to name names; there are those on YouTube in particular who have dissected the incidents of well known Pastors who mingle with others such as female "Pastors" and those clearly teaching heresy that often use some excuse for being at a particular retreat; such as it wasn't directly tied into their own church; or that they weren't "promoting" them. Few can say they were there to dogmatically preach against heresy as they would likely be in the media after being thrown out on their well; posteriors if such preaching actually took place. Musicians of the Christian industry today are sadly famous for all kinds of praise of downright sadistic people in the performances at their awards ceremonies which apparently is more important to them in winning a trophy than eternal rewards warning the unregenerate of their fate or teaching correct doctrine to those who purport to proclaim the truth but are clearly teaching falsehood or half truths instead.

Maybe a few individuals exist who have taken a stance but don't expect popular media to mention who they are; search them out yourself.

Part 1

Fuji, this is how I see the whole Bible. From the very beginning God made Lucifer, the perfect Angel in Heaven . Lucifer wanted to be better than God, so he fell and took one third of the angels and got kicked out of Heaven. God made the heaven and earth. Lucifer names are Accuser, Adversary, Antichrist, Beast, Deceiver, Dragon, Enemy, Evil One, Father of Lies, and Serpent. Satan deceived Eve and Eve gave to her husband Adam the forbidden fruit. Because of Adam's disobedience to God, the human race fell and we are all natural born sinners and Satan took over the earth and the air and maybe the universe, but still has to ask for permission from God . From Adam to Abraham God was dealing with the world in one race with Salvation . From Abraham to Jesus, God is dealing with Israel until Israel fell and killed Stephen in the book of Acts. God right now is dealing with the world again until the church age is taken up in the clouds, then God will deal with Israel once again through the Tribulation. Both Israel's and Gentiles can be saved in all events, but God is using his word to direct us in the right direction. We are now in the church age of grace according to Apostle Paul's epistle.

Please understand that I'm here to spread the Gospel of Grace in Apostle Paul's epistle.

Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

This is the gospel that Jesus Christ revealed to Apostle Paul.