There's those in the OT that passed on that is not considered part of the new covenant and is not part of Christ Church.
They were saved by faith but under the old covenant and rituals that pointed to their Messiah's finish work on the cross freeing them from the bondage that held them captive.
The difference between Israel and the rest of the world was that they were heirs of the land, Davidic and Kingdom promises to Abraham.
(Not to be mistaken for the recipient of the promises shown mentioned in Galatians 3:29 referring to Christ.)
However we all should know there's no entering into the presence of God without the door. John 10:9. That goes for all ages.
These specific promises is after the Gathering of the Gentiles into the body of Christ. "The Church" as shown in Acts 15:14-16
"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
"AFTER THIS" I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
The old testament prophets prophesied about the gather of Israel, (Post Church) and the Davidic Kingdom.
References-
Romans 11:25-26.
Romans 9:25-26 echoing Hosea 2:23.
Isaiah 40:9
Joel 2:3-32.
Isaiah 11:11-12.
The Lord calls Zion(Israel) his people several times in these verses.
..2:18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity HIS PEOPLE.
In Isaiah 11:11 the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people.
This is not the Church but a people and elect of God for the purpose of God!
We read in Jesus's longest prayer in John 17. For the reason Jesus was sent, He says, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
There is one people of God, as stated in Ephesians 2:15-16.
Scripture does not teach that Israel and the Church are two peoples of God with two destinies. Our final destiny is Revelation 21:1-7. There is not one verse in the Bible that outright says we go or are taken to heaven. From Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21, the entire Bible is about the Plan of God and the grace of God. From the beginning of creation. Revelation 3:14 to the end, Revelation 22:12-13.
Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
The mystery is that the blessings of Abraham might come on all believers, Jew or Gentile, through Jesus Christ, Galatians 3:14. Jesus had to fulfill the covenant of the law to bring in the new covenant that was prophesied in Daniel 9:27.
The Bible has one theme, one covenant of grace, with one Church united in Christ, with Gentile salvation in view from the beginning. Jews were being saved back then, and today, in God's plan for ethnic Jews, not by giving them a separate destiny as a separate people of God, but by bringing them back to Jesus Christ through faith.
I agree with GiGi and the Scripture she gave, and my answer is yes, as there is one body, and one church, they are the same, Ephesians 1:19-23. The Church began at Pentecost, and for several years before Paul, through the apostles, the Lord added to it daily, Acts 2:42-47, Acts 4:32-33. There is one body, 1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 2:15-16, Galatians 3:26-29. And as GiGi said, the apostles are the foundation of the holy city, New Jerusalem.
The word apostle comes from the Greek word apostolos, which translates to one who is sent out. The apostles were chosen by Jesus Christ to spread the Gospel and establish the Church.
That's very true Bennymkje: Obedience is critical to understanding God's Word. But how one reads and understands God's Word determines the direction that obedience takes.
Take for example the oft-mentioned matter of the Sabbath Day. We all read the same Scripture and understand the giving of it & God's Command to observe it. So why don't all believers in Christ rigidly perform the requirements of Sabbath rest? It boils down to the type & worth of one's hermeneutics of biblical Truth (i.e. applying correct interpretative principles, analysis, and application). So, to one, the Sabbath command is in the Bible, uttered by God Himself, and so must be obeyed by all people. To another, the Sabbath command is indeed in the Bible, but both it and all the Laws given by God to Israel must be read & understood in its proper context or else we stray far from the Word.
One cannot correctly obey what God by His Spirit speaks to us through His Word, unless we understand what His Word is actually stating in context. God indeed told Adam, "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." And Adam had to understand it and then obey that Command. Would that Command apply to me today? Correct understanding tells me, 'No it does not apply, but it tells me about obeying God and repercussions for disobeying Him.
God tells Israel to obey His Commandments, to sanctify the Sabbath Day, as unto those under the Law and being judged by it. If I obey that command not understanding the context in which it is given, then I place myself, with Israel, under the Law, for the whole body of the Law is One; and that curse is upon me ( Galatians 3:10). But I choose not to obey that Law (along with the others) and place myself wholly under the directives of the Spirit Who frees from the Law that reveals sin and promises death ( Romans 8:2). Correct hermeneutics is essential or else we could anything we want with God's Word, and teach others accordingly.
Galatians 3:29 tells us, "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." From a dispensational view, this does not mean the Church has taken Israel's earthly promises. The promise goes back to Genesis 12:3-"in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." In Christ, that blessing is extended to Jew and Gentile alike in the Body of Christ. Our inheritance is heavenly and spiritual ( Eph. 1:3; Phil. 3:20), not Israel's land or her kingdom program.
In Galatians 4:28-31 Paul explains that we, like Isaac, are children of promise, contrasted with Ishmael, born after the flesh. But this does not make the Body of Christ "spiritual Israel." Romans 11 shows clearly that Israel as a nation remains distinct and that God's covenant promises to them are not cancelled but postponed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. The Church is called a "new man" ( Eph. 2:15), a separate creation altogether, with a heavenly hope.
Much confusion comes from calling the Church the Bride. Scripture never uses that title for the Body of Christ. The Bride belongs to Israel ( Isa. 62:4-5; Rev. 21:2). We are the Body, already seated with Christ in heavenly places ( Eph. 2:6). Mixing these programs erases the difference between prophecy and the mystery.
Revelation 20:4 speaks of those beheaded in the Tribulation who will reign with Christ a thousand years. These are not the Church but saints who endure Israel's prophetic program. We, the Body, are delivered from wrath to come ( 1 Thess. 1:10) and caught up before that time ( 1 Thess. 4:16-17).
Thus, rightly dividing the Word ( 2 Tim. 2:15) means recognizing God's two distinct programs: Israel's earthly kingdom and the Church's heavenly calling. Both will be fulfilled in their proper place and order, to the glory of Christ.
First off, my apologies to you for misunderstanding your question. When I read the question, I had no idea that it had anything to do with the rapture or the teachings of the Plymouth Brethren Assembly. I have zero knowledge of this assembly or what they teach. One thing I do agree with you on is that if you are in any fellowship, regardless of where it is, and they are teaching things contrary to scripture, you are absolutely right to leave that fellowship.
Lastly, I wish to thank you for sharing Galatians 3:26-29, although I am not sure how this passage applies to the original question asked? It is a great section of scripture that speaks about spiritual baptism.
1 Corinthians 12:13 tells us that we've all been baptized by one Spirit into the body of Christ. It's another phrase for the Spirit of God coming into a person's life. It represents cleansing and identification.
Galatians 3:28 tells us that we (those who have been born of God's Spirit) are all one in Christ Jesus. Isn't that great! We are all one in Christ Jesus, something we should all keep in mind whenever we have disagreements with one another.
A question worth serious thought is this: if the twelve apostles were preaching the same gospel that Paul proclaimed, why was there a need for Paul at all? The Lord did not raise up Paul by accident or redundancy. Christ specifically chose him as "the apostle of the Gentiles" ( Romans 11:13), entrusted with "the dispensation of the grace of God" ( Ephesians 3:2), and revealed to him "the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began" ( Romans 16:25).
The twelve, under Christ's earthly ministry, were commissioned to preach the gospel of the kingdom to Israel, calling for repentance and faith in the promised Messiah, with baptism and law-keeping still in view ( Matthew 10:5-7; Acts 2:38). Their focus remained on the restoration of Israel's kingdom, as foretold by the prophets ( Acts 1:6). Paul's commission, however, centered on the Body of Christ, a new creation in which Jew and Gentile are united by grace through faith alone, apart from works of the law ( Ephesians 2:8-9; Galatians 3:28).
If their message had been identical, Paul's calling would be unnecessary. Instead, his ministry highlights God's progressive revelation-moving from Israel's prophetic hope to the hidden program of grace now revealed. The need for Paul demonstrates that God was unveiling something new: a gospel not rooted in Israel's covenants, but in Christ's finished work at the cross, freely offered to all.
One must believe in Christ's finished work on the cross alone for salvation-nothing you do, add, or contribute can save you.
Trust only His death, burial, and resurrection for eternal life.
I come before You with reverence and holy boldness in the mighty Name of Jesus Christ. You are the God who knew this child before they were formed in the womb, who wrote their story before a single day passed. You are their Defender, their Healer, their God.
Lord, I lift up my unborn granddaughter to You.
Cover this child with the Blood of Jesus from the crown of their head to the soles of their feet. Let every cell, organ, and system be formed under Your perfect hand.
"For You created my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother's womb." - Psalm 139:13
I plead the Blood of Jesus over their physical body.
No sickness, no deformity, no affliction, no diagnosis, no generational weakness shall take root. I reject and renounce every inherited physical condition passed down from either side of the bloodline-it ends here with no root in Jesus' Name!
"By His stripes we are healed." - Isaiah 53:5
"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law." - Galatians 3:13
I plead the Blood of Jesus over their emotions.
I declare that this child, my grandchild, M., will not inherit shame, trauma, fear, anxiety, or torment from any parent, grandparent, or family spirit. I block every soul wound and emotional imbalance that can be passed down through family cycles and make them powerless, null and void, now and forever. Let the Holy Spirit form their soul, body, mind, in peace, joy, and wholeness.
"God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind." - 2 Timothy 1:7
I plead the Blood of Jesus over their spirit.
This child will be marked for God from the womb: set apart, sealed, and anointed. I break every generational curse, every occult tie, every spirit of rebellion, addiction, abuse, rage, manipulation, control, curse, rejection, or perversion.
It is broken now by the authority of Jesus Christ!
"I will pour out My Spirit on your offspring, and My blessing on your descendants." - Isaiah 44:3
You asked; "When you say I am "driving home" my viewpoint, isn't that what you do with your dispensational viewpoints?
Gigi everyone should try to drive home their viewpoint!
I said you misrepresent Galatians in regard to this topic is because you said, quoting you; In Galatians 3:16 If I read Galatians, I will know that Paul attests to the blessing of Abraham coming upon the Gentiles who have faith like Abraham along with Israelites who have faith like Abraham.
As if I never read Galatians! What I do know is that Galatians 3:16 and the other verses you offered, Dispensationist and Covenant Theologist agree on.
Everyone who enters this debate should know that the promises made to Abraham concerning the future of Israel and an Earthly Kingdom is not the promise of the seed of Christ.
That wouldn't even qualify as replacement theology.
You say I have done this many times, but you have never spoken of me as I have spoken of you, and you have not told me how wrong I am.
Gigi everything you said about dispensationist that they don't have right; you said that about me and all who are dispensationist on this site.
I am not trying to fight with you, I'm just saying what you have presented is something no one disagree on.
The very topic that you don't want to answer questions to or talk about is where these to theologies differ is the promises to Israel in Eschatology!
I don't believe you have a grip on Covenant theology or Dispensationalism in regards to where they split.
Nor do you seem to understand what makes one qualify as Replacement Theology.
You stated "If I read Galatians you will know that Paul attests to the blessing of Abraham coming upon the Gentiles who have faith like Abraham along with Israelites who have faith like Abraham. (3:6-9; 14; 17; 22; 26;29.)
I don't believe there is anything in the book of Galatians that Covenant theology and Dispensationalist disagree on!!
Gigi I don't know if you are purposely doing this or not.
This has nothing to do with Genesis 22:18 or Galatians 3:16-29.
Those scriptures has nothing to do with the eschatology covenant promises to Abraham and the Davidic Kingdom!
You also stated;
We do not see ethnic Israel as any more special or preferred by God as any other people group.
Why did you feel the need to say that?
Gigi, Let's calm down and try to correctly hear one another.
Let me be clear, I do not hold to Replacement Theology because Paul is clear that gentiles are grafted into Israel, not replacing it. But those of faith are of Israel, not ethnic Israel, unless one is a believer.
When people refer to "true Israel" this does not make them adherents to Replacement Theology. You error in this statement.
When I or others who ascribe to covenant theology speak of "true Israel", first and foremost, we are speaking of Jesus Christ, the Seed of promise to Abraham as Paul says in Galatians 3:16. If you read Galatians you will know that Paul attests to the blessing of Abraham coming upon the Gentiles who have faith like Abraham along with Israelites who have faith like Abraham. (3:6-9; 14; 17; 22; 26;29.) So, Covenant theology attests that God has always and only had one people, chosen by election, throughout history. This is NOT Replacement Theology from a biblical standpoint.
To a dispensationalist, it may SEEM like Israel is being replaced by the church. But this is because dispensationalists insist that all of ethnic Israel is true Israel, children of the promise to Abraham. But Paul says differently, as I have shown in previous posts.
From my understanding of dispensationalism is that unbelieving ethnic Israelites are always the people of God, but Scripture state many places in the OT as well, that those who do not continue in belief are cut off from His people, as Paul reiterates in Rom. 11:15. In Gal 4:28 Paul says that believers (both Israelite and Gentile) are children of the promise to Abraham, just as Isaac was.
When one who espouses that across time God has continually called those whom He elected to have faith and receive redemption through the blood sacrifice of Jesus, whether OT or NT, whether Israelite or Gentile, from every nation tribe and tongue and attest that these are His one people, the Israel of God that receive this designation by faith, not by physical birth, they are agreeing with Paul!
Thanks bro Lbooth1955 for sharing these important matters again. I have pored through these two recent posts of yours and in all honesty, I have to admit that I'm still confused (to my shame of course). You have taken great pains to explain all this, but I remain perplexed as to Israel's position before God today.
I can understand national Israel's position and the covenants and promises that they have been given and will be fulfilled, but unable to discern the state of those in Jewry who get saved, are born again by God's Spirit and living this new life in Christ: how do Scriptures such as Galatians 3:28,29 and Ephesians 2:11-15 fit concerning the saved from Israel? Are those promises & "future program" given to national Israel (that you highlighted) still applicable to saved Israel? If so, it seems to me that God has two programs for those being saved today: one for saved Israel and one for the Church (of the Gentiles). Therefore, Israel should not be considered part of Christ's Body, which is the present reality for those in Christ from the Gentiles, and therefore "being one in Christ" takes on a different meaning for all who are born again.
Or else, your distinction is that national Israel will see those covenants/promises fulfilled at the Millennium when they realize the Messiah Who came for them was the One Whom they pierced; but the saved of Israel are part of Christ's Body, the Church, as together we share in present blessings, being caught away when Jesus appears, and no longer being distinguishable as Jew and Gentile, rather as one together in Christ.
However, maybe neither of these two options is quite what you believe and there is a third option or a redefining of the other options. Would appreciate your clarification on this, so that in your future posts on this subject, I will know how you understand the relationship of Israel (both saved & unsaved) and the Church. Blessings.
In this present dispensation of grace, the believer in Christ is part of the Body of Christ, not "spiritual Israel." Scripture makes a clear distinction between God's covenant promises to Israel and the mystery revealed to Paul for the Church. Israel was given covenants tied to land, law, kingdom, and priesthood ( Gen. 17:7-8; Exod. 19:5-6; Jer. 31:31-34). These covenants are never transferred to Gentiles or to the Body of Christ. Instead, Paul says believers today are made "fellowheirs" in a new, unprophesied program ( Eph. 3:1-6), not inheritors of Israel's covenants.
Romans 9:4 states that the covenants "pertain" to Israel, not to the Gentiles. Paul confirms this distinction in Ephesians 2:11-12: before Christ, Gentiles were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise." Now, in Christ, we are "made nigh by the blood of Christ" (v. 13), but not by becoming Israel. Instead, Jew and Gentile are joined into "one new man" (v. 15), the Body of Christ, which is distinct from Israel's prophetic promises.
The Body of Christ's blessings are spiritual, located "in heavenly places in Christ" ( Eph. 1:3), not earthly as Israel's kingdom promises ( Jer. 23:5-6; Matt. 19:28). Paul stresses in Galatians 3:28 that in this dispensation "there is neither Jew nor Greek," showing the old covenantal distinctions are set aside in Christ.
Israel's promises of land and kingdom remain future ( Rom. 11:25-29). God has not abandoned Israel but postponed their program until the fullness of the Gentiles is come in. The Church today is not Israel redefined, but a distinct entity created by the revelation of the mystery ( Col. 1:25-27). To merge the two erases God's faithfulness to His covenants with Israel and diminishes the uniqueness of the Body of Christ's calling.
Exodus 19:3-6, "And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."
Romans 3:19,20, "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."
2 Corinthians 3:7-9, "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory."
Galatians 3:10-13, "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them." Onto Page 2.
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are SANCTIFIED, but ye are JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus, and BY THE SPIRIT OF OUR GOD.
1 Corinthians 6:10-11.
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that ( HE IS ABLE TO KEEP THAT WHICH I HAVE COMMITTED UNTO HIM AGAINST THAT DAY. 2 Timothy 1:12
CHRIST HATH REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: Galatians 3:13.
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby YE ARE SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION. Ephesians 4:30.
I completely agree with you. One of the major misconceptions today is the true meaning of "grace." From a biblical standpoint, grace is unmerited favor.
The Law of Moses revealed our inadequacy-how despicable, miserable, and sinful our ways truly are. However, it did not provide the power to overcome these sinful tendencies; it merely exposed the problem. No one could perfectly keep the law ( Romans 3:12-20, Galatians 3:19, Romans 7:10). As Scripture says, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God ( Romans 3:22, Galatians 3:20, Romans 7:13-14). Jesus Himself highlighted this when He said, "There is one who accuses you, even Moses, in whom you trust." This referred to the Law of Moses, which the Israelites relied upon, yet it only revealed their inability to live righteously ( John 5:45-46).
Grace came to assist those who were unable to keep the law, enabling them to fulfill it. Grace does not make the law void; rather, it establishes the law by empowering us to obey it. As Paul explained, "the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us who walk according to the Spirit" ( Romans 8:3-4).
This principle is illustrated in the parable of the Good Samaritan. A traveler was wounded by thieves . The priests and Levites-representing the law-saw him but could not help. The Good Samaritan (Jesus), however, freely offered aid-representing grace-healing the man from his wounds, which symbolize sin. We partake in this grace by receiving the Spirit of Christ, which helps to walk according to the Spirit rather than our sinful flesh and desires.
The Holy Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of holiness. One cannot continue in sin and claim to possess the Holy Spirit. Grace delivers us from sin; it does not provide permission to remain in it ( Romans 6:1-2). Paul even warned against this attitude in Romans 3:8, where some falsely claimed that continuing in sin was a way of doing good.
"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."
Romans 10:9
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Galatians 3:26
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."
Before I embark further on this subject and how to facilitate proper preparation for future heavenly roles; I will say that as far as I can tell in heaven men and women rule; and as Galatians 3:28 states there is no male and female in Christ. The original implications of the curse are gone in heaven. We should realize that submission of women by no means disqualifies them from spiritual authority and holiness. This is; in my mind a sort of mystery but let's be honest; at least from my experience women are generally or at least have been the majority of those in prayer and spending most of the time doing it compared with men. Perhaps spiritual discernment has allowed me to observe these sorts of things.
As we consider further our training in prayer in particular then the concept of service goes beyond our own local congregation. Let us hope the internet helps with facilitation of communication with missionaries overseas and such-it ain't going to be our own little unit of believers once we get up there. Let's just call it a Bible conference on steroids; or perhaps a conclave from this earth for a time to borrow a Catholic term.
Stanza 2 and 3 from the "Youngbloods-1967
Come on people now
Smile on your brother
Everybody get together
Try to love one another
Right now
Some may come and some may go
We shall surely pass
When the one that left us here
Returns for us at last
We are but a moment's sunlight
Fading in the grass
I hope this can be posted; again this was not as far as I know a Christian group but there is a lot of theology here.
I always say we should start getting along with each other now since we're going to spend an eternity in heaven. For some that is a scary thought but there are always a couple million groups of others we can hang out with for a few hundred years before we cross paths again if we so choose.
I wish we could get just a moment experientially now; no doubt we wouldn't want to return.
My final thoughts on the matter of Kingdom message compared to the Salvation through Faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross, with heavenly blessings and a heavenly hope.
The "kingdom message" preached by Peter and the other apostles-particularly in the early chapters of Acts-was primarily directed to Israel and centered on the offer of the earthly Messianic kingdom promised in the Old Testament. This message called the nation to repentance and faith in Jesus as the risen Messiah and King, with the expectation that if Israel as a nation responded, Christ would return and establish His kingdom on earth ( Acts 3:19-21). Peter's sermons (e.g., Acts 2 and 3) emphasized Jesus' fulfillment of prophecy, His resurrection, and His role as the promised Davidic King. The apostles preached "the gospel of the kingdom," which was consistent with what Jesus proclaimed during His earthly ministry ( Matthew 4:17; Luke 9:1-6).
However, this message was rejected by the nation of Israel, culminating in the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7. It is after this national rejection that God raised up Paul as the apostle to the Gentiles ( Acts 9; Romans 11:13). Through Paul, God revealed the "mystery" of the body of Christ-a previously hidden truth ( Ephesians 3:1-9; Colossians 1:24-27). The body of Christ is not a continuation of Israel's kingdom program but a new entity in which there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile ( Galatians 3:28). Paul's message was the gospel of the grace of God ( Acts 20:24), focused not on an earthly kingdom, but on salvation through faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross, with heavenly blessings and a heavenly hope.
In summary, the kingdom message was not meant for the body of Christ. It was directed to Israel, offering a literal kingdom on earth. The body of Christ, a new creation revealed through Paul, operates under a different gospel and program-centered on grace, not law or kingdom promises.
Hello again Forgiven forever. May you be encouraged from what has been shared with you here to truly wait upon the Lord, for His Spirit Who has touched your heart to seek Him earnestly after the long spell away from Him. There is nothing more wonderful than to be resting with great assurance in the joy & blessing of God, and knowing His ministry in your life when things don't always go the way you would like or when feelings of anxiousness or fear arise. Our LORD is indeed the great Healer & Sustainer, Who promises to never leave us - wherever we go & in all we do, He is with us & in us. Stay close to Him by faith, reading His precious Word and talking to Him at any time (both in praise & prayer).
Just a short note to your question, whether Romans 2:13 "would be considered works?" To understand what the apostle Paul was writing about, one would need to at least read all of chapters 2 & 3 of Romans. In chapter 2, Paul was addressing both Jew and Gentile believers in Rome, but turns his attention to the Jews in the Church ( Romans 2:17). There were some there that maintained adherence to the Old Testament Laws given to Israel, to which Paul asked 'if you preach adherence to the Law, then how well do you keep that Law, for only those who can keep it perfectly will be accepted by God'. Of course, the expected response would be, 'we can't keep the Law perfectly'; even as James 2:10 states, "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
So Paul goes on in Romans chap 3 to give the answer. Romans 3:19,20: the Law applies to those under it and by keeping the Law (even imperfectly), no one, Jew nor Gentile, can be justified before God. So Paul's conclusion ( Romans 3:28: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law). So, not only keeping the Law, but doing any good that tries to supplement Faith in God through Jesus, would be Works - and Works & Faith don't mix ( Galatians 3:19-26).
Many today believe that the Church is a continuation or replacement of Israel, often calling it "spiritual Israel." However, when we rightly divide the Word of Truth ( 2 Timothy 2:15), we see that the Church-the Body of Christ-formed through the unique revelation given to the Apostle Paul ( Ephesians 3:1-6), is a distinct entity from the nation of Israel. Israel is a nation with earthly promises, covenants, and prophetic hope, while the Church is a heavenly people, formed without distinction between Jew and Gentile, united by faith alone in Christ and placed into one Body ( 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:28).
Israel's promises were national and earthly-God covenanted land, a kingdom, and a Messiah to rule over them ( Genesis 17:7-8; Isaiah 9:6-7). These promises were never transferred to the Church. Instead, Paul reveals a "mystery" that was kept hidden from ages past ( Romans 16:25; Colossians 1:26), in which God is forming a new, heavenly organism-the Body of Christ-composed of both Jew and Gentile, not based on nationality or covenant, but based on grace through faith ( Ephesians 2:8-9). Nowhere in Paul's epistles does he teach that the Church has become Israel or inherits Israel's kingdom promises.
To equate the Church with spiritual Israel confuses God's prophetic program for Israel with His mystery program for the Body of Christ. God has not abandoned His promises to national Israel ( Romans 11:1-2, 25-29). Their fullness will come in a future day, during the millennial reign of Christ. In contrast, the Church was chosen before the foundation of the world and has a heavenly destiny ( Ephesians 1:3-4; Philippians 3:20). Understanding the difference protects sound doctrine and preserves the clarity of God's distinct purposes for Israel and the Church.
"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"
Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 10:12
"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."
"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"
Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 10:12
"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."
Thanks again CrossTalker for your questions. In the matter of "Double Judgement", I now understand what he meant. The way I understand this, is that no one, whether Jew or Gentile, could ever keep God's Laws perfectly. The Law (i.e. both the Decalogue plus the hundreds of other laws that both supplemented & complemented it), were given to Israel, and Israel alone, to reveal God's requirements for their relationship to God (worship, obedience), & their relationship to other people, as they prepared to exit Egyptian bondage. They could never/would never be able to perfectly keep the Laws because man's common sinful nature prohibits that ever happening; but the Laws were given as not only God's Standard of practise, but to show their inability to keep the Law nor to satisfy God.
The Apostle Paul writes well on this matter, in Galatians chapter 3. But specifically Galatians 3:21-25 tells us that the Law could never give "life"; if it could, then our efforts to obey them would help us to a right standing before God - but this could never happen, for we still remain sinners because of disobedience & unable to satisfy God at all. "But before faith came, we (Israel) were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed". So, Israel stood under the demands of the Law but had no way to be free from its damnable end, except to wait for the day when Christ would come & faith in Him alone would reconcile man to God. So the Law given to them was "a schoolmaster" to bring them to Christ; and after Christ, that schoolmaster (the Law) was no longer needed, for faith took over, which the Law could never link with. So, with the cases of Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Moses, etc. (Hebrews chap 11), these all took God at His Word to them, trusted Him with their lives, & waited for His Promises. They never received the Promise to come, but their looking & waiting upon God in faith (& not upon the Law), made them acceptable to God. Cont'd in Page 2.
Covenants in the future: The church and Israel's ultimate fulfillment
God didn't create a covenant with Israel and abandon it forever as I see scripture; but he added implications for the Gentiles who eventually would along with believing Jews be one with Christ in the church ( Rom. 10:12; Gal. 3:28). I look at is as a sort of parabolic curve; where what happened in the past happens again in the future. We are of course referred to as "true Israel" as Galatians 3:29 alludes to; where true sons of Abraham are those called and chosen and therefore recieve all the blessings of the promise. We see even in the Old Testament examples of Gentiles who demonstrated true faith in the true God; just as we see those who were in Israel being judged due to rebellion and unbelief. Put another way the basic principle stood as to the exclusivity of national Israel under God's design for government being a "Theocracy" at the time but it wasn't the end all. We can also say that the laws invoked in the covenants were not the end but a means to reach the end; that is to be part of God's children and after temporal blessings enter into glory where eternal glories and promises are in effect. Thus we have the "great cloud of witnesses" mentioned in Hebrews 12:1 which are summarized in the former chapter in detail.
We talk about heaven but often fail to consider being part of heavenly armies and such which will return with Christ as we see towards the end of the book of Revelation. We don't consider spiritual rewards and ruling over the earth during the Millennium and whatever eternity will mean on a restored and recreated world. We are associated with the head; Christ just as the world is allied with Satan the god of this world. We need to also remember that for all Christ did for us we should ever be grateful; but also that doing the Father's will was THE most important thing; and if it was for Him it should be also for us; His covenant church.
Hello Dewayneelsied2024. You'll find that reference in Zechariah 11:12,13. However, this reference doesn't specifically name Jesus, but this account of the prophet Zechariah looks ahead, not only to Israel as they were then, but what they would (or, could) be under their Messiah.
Here we read that Zechariah stands as the 'good shepherd', even as a shepherd who carries his two staves (an old plural for 'staffs') one for guiding & counting the sheep and the other for pulling in straying sheep, the prophet calls these staves, "Beauty and Bands". Some (v11, "the poor of the flock") received his message, but most refused to believe and so Zechariah asked for his wages, which was "thirty pieces of silver", which was the price of a slave. And this money, the LORD commanded the prophet to cast to the potter "in the house of the LORD", even as Judas would finally do in his betrayal of Jesus. The staves which once represented God's favor & delight ("Beauty") and binding together in Union ("Bands") of Israel and Judah, were both broken by the prophet showing their future rejection of God & His Christ. But those in Jesus, of both Israel & Gentiles, would become one & restored into intimate fellowship with God once again ( Galatians 3:28; John 17:20,21). Just thought to add a little more to help understand that prophetical Word from God through Zechariah.
Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 10:12
"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."
My apologies. I meant to say Galatians 3:27.
Blessings!
There's those in the OT that passed on that is not considered part of the new covenant and is not part of Christ Church.
They were saved by faith but under the old covenant and rituals that pointed to their Messiah's finish work on the cross freeing them from the bondage that held them captive.
The difference between Israel and the rest of the world was that they were heirs of the land, Davidic and Kingdom promises to Abraham.
(Not to be mistaken for the recipient of the promises shown mentioned in Galatians 3:29 referring to Christ.)
However we all should know there's no entering into the presence of God without the door. John 10:9. That goes for all ages.
These specific promises is after the Gathering of the Gentiles into the body of Christ. "The Church" as shown in Acts 15:14-16
"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
"AFTER THIS" I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
The old testament prophets prophesied about the gather of Israel, (Post Church) and the Davidic Kingdom.
References-
Romans 11:25-26.
Romans 9:25-26 echoing Hosea 2:23.
Isaiah 40:9
Joel 2:3-32.
Isaiah 11:11-12.
The Lord calls Zion(Israel) his people several times in these verses.
..2:18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity HIS PEOPLE.
In Isaiah 11:11 the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people.
This is not the Church but a people and elect of God for the purpose of God!
Blessings Brother!
We read in Jesus's longest prayer in John 17. For the reason Jesus was sent, He says, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
There is one people of God, as stated in Ephesians 2:15-16.
Scripture does not teach that Israel and the Church are two peoples of God with two destinies. Our final destiny is Revelation 21:1-7. There is not one verse in the Bible that outright says we go or are taken to heaven. From Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21, the entire Bible is about the Plan of God and the grace of God. From the beginning of creation. Revelation 3:14 to the end, Revelation 22:12-13.
Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
The mystery is that the blessings of Abraham might come on all believers, Jew or Gentile, through Jesus Christ, Galatians 3:14. Jesus had to fulfill the covenant of the law to bring in the new covenant that was prophesied in Daniel 9:27.
The Bible has one theme, one covenant of grace, with one Church united in Christ, with Gentile salvation in view from the beginning. Jews were being saved back then, and today, in God's plan for ethnic Jews, not by giving them a separate destiny as a separate people of God, but by bringing them back to Jesus Christ through faith.
See part 2.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
Blessings
I agree with GiGi and the Scripture she gave, and my answer is yes, as there is one body, and one church, they are the same, Ephesians 1:19-23. The Church began at Pentecost, and for several years before Paul, through the apostles, the Lord added to it daily, Acts 2:42-47, Acts 4:32-33. There is one body, 1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 2:15-16, Galatians 3:26-29. And as GiGi said, the apostles are the foundation of the holy city, New Jerusalem.
The word apostle comes from the Greek word apostolos, which translates to one who is sent out. The apostles were chosen by Jesus Christ to spread the Gospel and establish the Church.
God bless,
RLW
Take for example the oft-mentioned matter of the Sabbath Day. We all read the same Scripture and understand the giving of it & God's Command to observe it. So why don't all believers in Christ rigidly perform the requirements of Sabbath rest? It boils down to the type & worth of one's hermeneutics of biblical Truth (i.e. applying correct interpretative principles, analysis, and application). So, to one, the Sabbath command is in the Bible, uttered by God Himself, and so must be obeyed by all people. To another, the Sabbath command is indeed in the Bible, but both it and all the Laws given by God to Israel must be read & understood in its proper context or else we stray far from the Word.
One cannot correctly obey what God by His Spirit speaks to us through His Word, unless we understand what His Word is actually stating in context. God indeed told Adam, "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." And Adam had to understand it and then obey that Command. Would that Command apply to me today? Correct understanding tells me, 'No it does not apply, but it tells me about obeying God and repercussions for disobeying Him.
God tells Israel to obey His Commandments, to sanctify the Sabbath Day, as unto those under the Law and being judged by it. If I obey that command not understanding the context in which it is given, then I place myself, with Israel, under the Law, for the whole body of the Law is One; and that curse is upon me ( Galatians 3:10). But I choose not to obey that Law (along with the others) and place myself wholly under the directives of the Spirit Who frees from the Law that reveals sin and promises death ( Romans 8:2). Correct hermeneutics is essential or else we could anything we want with God's Word, and teach others accordingly.
Galatians 3:29 tells us, "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." From a dispensational view, this does not mean the Church has taken Israel's earthly promises. The promise goes back to Genesis 12:3-"in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." In Christ, that blessing is extended to Jew and Gentile alike in the Body of Christ. Our inheritance is heavenly and spiritual ( Eph. 1:3; Phil. 3:20), not Israel's land or her kingdom program.
In Galatians 4:28-31 Paul explains that we, like Isaac, are children of promise, contrasted with Ishmael, born after the flesh. But this does not make the Body of Christ "spiritual Israel." Romans 11 shows clearly that Israel as a nation remains distinct and that God's covenant promises to them are not cancelled but postponed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. The Church is called a "new man" ( Eph. 2:15), a separate creation altogether, with a heavenly hope.
Much confusion comes from calling the Church the Bride. Scripture never uses that title for the Body of Christ. The Bride belongs to Israel ( Isa. 62:4-5; Rev. 21:2). We are the Body, already seated with Christ in heavenly places ( Eph. 2:6). Mixing these programs erases the difference between prophecy and the mystery.
Revelation 20:4 speaks of those beheaded in the Tribulation who will reign with Christ a thousand years. These are not the Church but saints who endure Israel's prophetic program. We, the Body, are delivered from wrath to come ( 1 Thess. 1:10) and caught up before that time ( 1 Thess. 4:16-17).
Thus, rightly dividing the Word ( 2 Tim. 2:15) means recognizing God's two distinct programs: Israel's earthly kingdom and the Church's heavenly calling. Both will be fulfilled in their proper place and order, to the glory of Christ.
This is not hard to understand!
G&P
First off, my apologies to you for misunderstanding your question. When I read the question, I had no idea that it had anything to do with the rapture or the teachings of the Plymouth Brethren Assembly. I have zero knowledge of this assembly or what they teach. One thing I do agree with you on is that if you are in any fellowship, regardless of where it is, and they are teaching things contrary to scripture, you are absolutely right to leave that fellowship.
Lastly, I wish to thank you for sharing Galatians 3:26-29, although I am not sure how this passage applies to the original question asked? It is a great section of scripture that speaks about spiritual baptism.
1 Corinthians 12:13 tells us that we've all been baptized by one Spirit into the body of Christ. It's another phrase for the Spirit of God coming into a person's life. It represents cleansing and identification.
Galatians 3:28 tells us that we (those who have been born of God's Spirit) are all one in Christ Jesus. Isn't that great! We are all one in Christ Jesus, something we should all keep in mind whenever we have disagreements with one another.
Blessings!
A question worth serious thought is this: if the twelve apostles were preaching the same gospel that Paul proclaimed, why was there a need for Paul at all? The Lord did not raise up Paul by accident or redundancy. Christ specifically chose him as "the apostle of the Gentiles" ( Romans 11:13), entrusted with "the dispensation of the grace of God" ( Ephesians 3:2), and revealed to him "the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began" ( Romans 16:25).
The twelve, under Christ's earthly ministry, were commissioned to preach the gospel of the kingdom to Israel, calling for repentance and faith in the promised Messiah, with baptism and law-keeping still in view ( Matthew 10:5-7; Acts 2:38). Their focus remained on the restoration of Israel's kingdom, as foretold by the prophets ( Acts 1:6). Paul's commission, however, centered on the Body of Christ, a new creation in which Jew and Gentile are united by grace through faith alone, apart from works of the law ( Ephesians 2:8-9; Galatians 3:28).
If their message had been identical, Paul's calling would be unnecessary. Instead, his ministry highlights God's progressive revelation-moving from Israel's prophetic hope to the hidden program of grace now revealed. The need for Paul demonstrates that God was unveiling something new: a gospel not rooted in Israel's covenants, but in Christ's finished work at the cross, freely offered to all.
One must believe in Christ's finished work on the cross alone for salvation-nothing you do, add, or contribute can save you.
Trust only His death, burial, and resurrection for eternal life.
G&P
I come before You with reverence and holy boldness in the mighty Name of Jesus Christ. You are the God who knew this child before they were formed in the womb, who wrote their story before a single day passed. You are their Defender, their Healer, their God.
Lord, I lift up my unborn granddaughter to You.
Cover this child with the Blood of Jesus from the crown of their head to the soles of their feet. Let every cell, organ, and system be formed under Your perfect hand.
"For You created my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother's womb." - Psalm 139:13
I plead the Blood of Jesus over their physical body.
No sickness, no deformity, no affliction, no diagnosis, no generational weakness shall take root. I reject and renounce every inherited physical condition passed down from either side of the bloodline-it ends here with no root in Jesus' Name!
"By His stripes we are healed." - Isaiah 53:5
"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law." - Galatians 3:13
I plead the Blood of Jesus over their emotions.
I declare that this child, my grandchild, M., will not inherit shame, trauma, fear, anxiety, or torment from any parent, grandparent, or family spirit. I block every soul wound and emotional imbalance that can be passed down through family cycles and make them powerless, null and void, now and forever. Let the Holy Spirit form their soul, body, mind, in peace, joy, and wholeness.
"God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind." - 2 Timothy 1:7
I plead the Blood of Jesus over their spirit.
This child will be marked for God from the womb: set apart, sealed, and anointed. I break every generational curse, every occult tie, every spirit of rebellion, addiction, abuse, rage, manipulation, control, curse, rejection, or perversion.
It is broken now by the authority of Jesus Christ!
"I will pour out My Spirit on your offspring, and My blessing on your descendants." - Isaiah 44:3
*"If the Son sets you fr
You asked; "When you say I am "driving home" my viewpoint, isn't that what you do with your dispensational viewpoints?
Gigi everyone should try to drive home their viewpoint!
I said you misrepresent Galatians in regard to this topic is because you said, quoting you; In Galatians 3:16 If I read Galatians, I will know that Paul attests to the blessing of Abraham coming upon the Gentiles who have faith like Abraham along with Israelites who have faith like Abraham.
As if I never read Galatians! What I do know is that Galatians 3:16 and the other verses you offered, Dispensationist and Covenant Theologist agree on.
Everyone who enters this debate should know that the promises made to Abraham concerning the future of Israel and an Earthly Kingdom is not the promise of the seed of Christ.
That wouldn't even qualify as replacement theology.
You say I have done this many times, but you have never spoken of me as I have spoken of you, and you have not told me how wrong I am.
Gigi everything you said about dispensationist that they don't have right; you said that about me and all who are dispensationist on this site.
I am not trying to fight with you, I'm just saying what you have presented is something no one disagree on.
The very topic that you don't want to answer questions to or talk about is where these to theologies differ is the promises to Israel in Eschatology!
By for now.
I don't believe you have a grip on Covenant theology or Dispensationalism in regards to where they split.
Nor do you seem to understand what makes one qualify as Replacement Theology.
You stated "If I read Galatians you will know that Paul attests to the blessing of Abraham coming upon the Gentiles who have faith like Abraham along with Israelites who have faith like Abraham. (3:6-9; 14; 17; 22; 26;29.)
I don't believe there is anything in the book of Galatians that Covenant theology and Dispensationalist disagree on!!
Gigi I don't know if you are purposely doing this or not.
This has nothing to do with Genesis 22:18 or Galatians 3:16-29.
Those scriptures has nothing to do with the eschatology covenant promises to Abraham and the Davidic Kingdom!
You also stated;
We do not see ethnic Israel as any more special or preferred by God as any other people group.
Why did you feel the need to say that?
Gigi, Let's calm down and try to correctly hear one another.
I'm busy at the moment we will talk later.
Blessings.
Let me be clear, I do not hold to Replacement Theology because Paul is clear that gentiles are grafted into Israel, not replacing it. But those of faith are of Israel, not ethnic Israel, unless one is a believer.
When people refer to "true Israel" this does not make them adherents to Replacement Theology. You error in this statement.
When I or others who ascribe to covenant theology speak of "true Israel", first and foremost, we are speaking of Jesus Christ, the Seed of promise to Abraham as Paul says in Galatians 3:16. If you read Galatians you will know that Paul attests to the blessing of Abraham coming upon the Gentiles who have faith like Abraham along with Israelites who have faith like Abraham. (3:6-9; 14; 17; 22; 26;29.) So, Covenant theology attests that God has always and only had one people, chosen by election, throughout history. This is NOT Replacement Theology from a biblical standpoint.
To a dispensationalist, it may SEEM like Israel is being replaced by the church. But this is because dispensationalists insist that all of ethnic Israel is true Israel, children of the promise to Abraham. But Paul says differently, as I have shown in previous posts.
From my understanding of dispensationalism is that unbelieving ethnic Israelites are always the people of God, but Scripture state many places in the OT as well, that those who do not continue in belief are cut off from His people, as Paul reiterates in Rom. 11:15. In Gal 4:28 Paul says that believers (both Israelite and Gentile) are children of the promise to Abraham, just as Isaac was.
When one who espouses that across time God has continually called those whom He elected to have faith and receive redemption through the blood sacrifice of Jesus, whether OT or NT, whether Israelite or Gentile, from every nation tribe and tongue and attest that these are His one people, the Israel of God that receive this designation by faith, not by physical birth, they are agreeing with Paul!
I can understand national Israel's position and the covenants and promises that they have been given and will be fulfilled, but unable to discern the state of those in Jewry who get saved, are born again by God's Spirit and living this new life in Christ: how do Scriptures such as Galatians 3:28,29 and Ephesians 2:11-15 fit concerning the saved from Israel? Are those promises & "future program" given to national Israel (that you highlighted) still applicable to saved Israel? If so, it seems to me that God has two programs for those being saved today: one for saved Israel and one for the Church (of the Gentiles). Therefore, Israel should not be considered part of Christ's Body, which is the present reality for those in Christ from the Gentiles, and therefore "being one in Christ" takes on a different meaning for all who are born again.
Or else, your distinction is that national Israel will see those covenants/promises fulfilled at the Millennium when they realize the Messiah Who came for them was the One Whom they pierced; but the saved of Israel are part of Christ's Body, the Church, as together we share in present blessings, being caught away when Jesus appears, and no longer being distinguishable as Jew and Gentile, rather as one together in Christ.
However, maybe neither of these two options is quite what you believe and there is a third option or a redefining of the other options. Would appreciate your clarification on this, so that in your future posts on this subject, I will know how you understand the relationship of Israel (both saved & unsaved) and the Church. Blessings.
Who we are in the Body of Christ.
In this present dispensation of grace, the believer in Christ is part of the Body of Christ, not "spiritual Israel." Scripture makes a clear distinction between God's covenant promises to Israel and the mystery revealed to Paul for the Church. Israel was given covenants tied to land, law, kingdom, and priesthood ( Gen. 17:7-8; Exod. 19:5-6; Jer. 31:31-34). These covenants are never transferred to Gentiles or to the Body of Christ. Instead, Paul says believers today are made "fellowheirs" in a new, unprophesied program ( Eph. 3:1-6), not inheritors of Israel's covenants.
Romans 9:4 states that the covenants "pertain" to Israel, not to the Gentiles. Paul confirms this distinction in Ephesians 2:11-12: before Christ, Gentiles were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise." Now, in Christ, we are "made nigh by the blood of Christ" (v. 13), but not by becoming Israel. Instead, Jew and Gentile are joined into "one new man" (v. 15), the Body of Christ, which is distinct from Israel's prophetic promises.
The Body of Christ's blessings are spiritual, located "in heavenly places in Christ" ( Eph. 1:3), not earthly as Israel's kingdom promises ( Jer. 23:5-6; Matt. 19:28). Paul stresses in Galatians 3:28 that in this dispensation "there is neither Jew nor Greek," showing the old covenantal distinctions are set aside in Christ.
Israel's promises of land and kingdom remain future ( Rom. 11:25-29). God has not abandoned Israel but postponed their program until the fullness of the Gentiles is come in. The Church today is not Israel redefined, but a distinct entity created by the revelation of the mystery ( Col. 1:25-27). To merge the two erases God's faithfulness to His covenants with Israel and diminishes the uniqueness of the Body of Christ's calling.
Grace and Peace.
Exodus 19:3-6, "And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."
Romans 3:19,20, "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."
2 Corinthians 3:7-9, "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory."
Galatians 3:10-13, "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them." Onto Page 2.
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are SANCTIFIED, but ye are JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus, and BY THE SPIRIT OF OUR GOD.
1 Corinthians 6:10-11.
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that ( HE IS ABLE TO KEEP THAT WHICH I HAVE COMMITTED UNTO HIM AGAINST THAT DAY. 2 Timothy 1:12
CHRIST HATH REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: Galatians 3:13.
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby YE ARE SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION. Ephesians 4:30.
Blessings.
The Law of Moses revealed our inadequacy-how despicable, miserable, and sinful our ways truly are. However, it did not provide the power to overcome these sinful tendencies; it merely exposed the problem. No one could perfectly keep the law ( Romans 3:12-20, Galatians 3:19, Romans 7:10). As Scripture says, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God ( Romans 3:22, Galatians 3:20, Romans 7:13-14). Jesus Himself highlighted this when He said, "There is one who accuses you, even Moses, in whom you trust." This referred to the Law of Moses, which the Israelites relied upon, yet it only revealed their inability to live righteously ( John 5:45-46).
Grace came to assist those who were unable to keep the law, enabling them to fulfill it. Grace does not make the law void; rather, it establishes the law by empowering us to obey it. As Paul explained, "the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us who walk according to the Spirit" ( Romans 8:3-4).
This principle is illustrated in the parable of the Good Samaritan. A traveler was wounded by thieves . The priests and Levites-representing the law-saw him but could not help. The Good Samaritan (Jesus), however, freely offered aid-representing grace-healing the man from his wounds, which symbolize sin. We partake in this grace by receiving the Spirit of Christ, which helps to walk according to the Spirit rather than our sinful flesh and desires.
The Holy Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of holiness. One cannot continue in sin and claim to possess the Holy Spirit. Grace delivers us from sin; it does not provide permission to remain in it ( Romans 6:1-2). Paul even warned against this attitude in Romans 3:8, where some falsely claimed that continuing in sin was a way of doing good.
"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."
Romans 10:9
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Galatians 3:26
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."
Blessings
Before I embark further on this subject and how to facilitate proper preparation for future heavenly roles; I will say that as far as I can tell in heaven men and women rule; and as Galatians 3:28 states there is no male and female in Christ. The original implications of the curse are gone in heaven. We should realize that submission of women by no means disqualifies them from spiritual authority and holiness. This is; in my mind a sort of mystery but let's be honest; at least from my experience women are generally or at least have been the majority of those in prayer and spending most of the time doing it compared with men. Perhaps spiritual discernment has allowed me to observe these sorts of things.
As we consider further our training in prayer in particular then the concept of service goes beyond our own local congregation. Let us hope the internet helps with facilitation of communication with missionaries overseas and such-it ain't going to be our own little unit of believers once we get up there. Let's just call it a Bible conference on steroids; or perhaps a conclave from this earth for a time to borrow a Catholic term.
Stanza 2 and 3 from the "Youngbloods-1967
Come on people now
Smile on your brother
Everybody get together
Try to love one another
Right now
Some may come and some may go
We shall surely pass
When the one that left us here
Returns for us at last
We are but a moment's sunlight
Fading in the grass
I hope this can be posted; again this was not as far as I know a Christian group but there is a lot of theology here.
I always say we should start getting along with each other now since we're going to spend an eternity in heaven. For some that is a scary thought but there are always a couple million groups of others we can hang out with for a few hundred years before we cross paths again if we so choose.
I wish we could get just a moment experientially now; no doubt we wouldn't want to return.
My final thoughts on the matter of Kingdom message compared to the Salvation through Faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross, with heavenly blessings and a heavenly hope.
The "kingdom message" preached by Peter and the other apostles-particularly in the early chapters of Acts-was primarily directed to Israel and centered on the offer of the earthly Messianic kingdom promised in the Old Testament. This message called the nation to repentance and faith in Jesus as the risen Messiah and King, with the expectation that if Israel as a nation responded, Christ would return and establish His kingdom on earth ( Acts 3:19-21). Peter's sermons (e.g., Acts 2 and 3) emphasized Jesus' fulfillment of prophecy, His resurrection, and His role as the promised Davidic King. The apostles preached "the gospel of the kingdom," which was consistent with what Jesus proclaimed during His earthly ministry ( Matthew 4:17; Luke 9:1-6).
However, this message was rejected by the nation of Israel, culminating in the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7. It is after this national rejection that God raised up Paul as the apostle to the Gentiles ( Acts 9; Romans 11:13). Through Paul, God revealed the "mystery" of the body of Christ-a previously hidden truth ( Ephesians 3:1-9; Colossians 1:24-27). The body of Christ is not a continuation of Israel's kingdom program but a new entity in which there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile ( Galatians 3:28). Paul's message was the gospel of the grace of God ( Acts 20:24), focused not on an earthly kingdom, but on salvation through faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross, with heavenly blessings and a heavenly hope.
In summary, the kingdom message was not meant for the body of Christ. It was directed to Israel, offering a literal kingdom on earth. The body of Christ, a new creation revealed through Paul, operates under a different gospel and program-centered on grace, not law or kingdom promises.
Blessings to all!
Just a short note to your question, whether Romans 2:13 "would be considered works?" To understand what the apostle Paul was writing about, one would need to at least read all of chapters 2 & 3 of Romans. In chapter 2, Paul was addressing both Jew and Gentile believers in Rome, but turns his attention to the Jews in the Church ( Romans 2:17). There were some there that maintained adherence to the Old Testament Laws given to Israel, to which Paul asked 'if you preach adherence to the Law, then how well do you keep that Law, for only those who can keep it perfectly will be accepted by God'. Of course, the expected response would be, 'we can't keep the Law perfectly'; even as James 2:10 states, "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
So Paul goes on in Romans chap 3 to give the answer. Romans 3:19,20: the Law applies to those under it and by keeping the Law (even imperfectly), no one, Jew nor Gentile, can be justified before God. So Paul's conclusion ( Romans 3:28: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law). So, not only keeping the Law, but doing any good that tries to supplement Faith in God through Jesus, would be Works - and Works & Faith don't mix ( Galatians 3:19-26).
Many today believe that the Church is a continuation or replacement of Israel, often calling it "spiritual Israel." However, when we rightly divide the Word of Truth ( 2 Timothy 2:15), we see that the Church-the Body of Christ-formed through the unique revelation given to the Apostle Paul ( Ephesians 3:1-6), is a distinct entity from the nation of Israel. Israel is a nation with earthly promises, covenants, and prophetic hope, while the Church is a heavenly people, formed without distinction between Jew and Gentile, united by faith alone in Christ and placed into one Body ( 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:28).
Israel's promises were national and earthly-God covenanted land, a kingdom, and a Messiah to rule over them ( Genesis 17:7-8; Isaiah 9:6-7). These promises were never transferred to the Church. Instead, Paul reveals a "mystery" that was kept hidden from ages past ( Romans 16:25; Colossians 1:26), in which God is forming a new, heavenly organism-the Body of Christ-composed of both Jew and Gentile, not based on nationality or covenant, but based on grace through faith ( Ephesians 2:8-9). Nowhere in Paul's epistles does he teach that the Church has become Israel or inherits Israel's kingdom promises.
To equate the Church with spiritual Israel confuses God's prophetic program for Israel with His mystery program for the Body of Christ. God has not abandoned His promises to national Israel ( Romans 11:1-2, 25-29). Their fullness will come in a future day, during the millennial reign of Christ. In contrast, the Church was chosen before the foundation of the world and has a heavenly destiny ( Ephesians 1:3-4; Philippians 3:20). Understanding the difference protects sound doctrine and preserves the clarity of God's distinct purposes for Israel and the Church.
"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"
Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 10:12
"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."
Blessings
"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"
Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 10:12
"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."
Blessings
Thanks again CrossTalker for your questions. In the matter of "Double Judgement", I now understand what he meant. The way I understand this, is that no one, whether Jew or Gentile, could ever keep God's Laws perfectly. The Law (i.e. both the Decalogue plus the hundreds of other laws that both supplemented & complemented it), were given to Israel, and Israel alone, to reveal God's requirements for their relationship to God (worship, obedience), & their relationship to other people, as they prepared to exit Egyptian bondage. They could never/would never be able to perfectly keep the Laws because man's common sinful nature prohibits that ever happening; but the Laws were given as not only God's Standard of practise, but to show their inability to keep the Law nor to satisfy God.
The Apostle Paul writes well on this matter, in Galatians chapter 3. But specifically Galatians 3:21-25 tells us that the Law could never give "life"; if it could, then our efforts to obey them would help us to a right standing before God - but this could never happen, for we still remain sinners because of disobedience & unable to satisfy God at all. "But before faith came, we (Israel) were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed". So, Israel stood under the demands of the Law but had no way to be free from its damnable end, except to wait for the day when Christ would come & faith in Him alone would reconcile man to God. So the Law given to them was "a schoolmaster" to bring them to Christ; and after Christ, that schoolmaster (the Law) was no longer needed, for faith took over, which the Law could never link with. So, with the cases of Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Moses, etc. (Hebrews chap 11), these all took God at His Word to them, trusted Him with their lives, & waited for His Promises. They never received the Promise to come, but their looking & waiting upon God in faith (& not upon the Law), made them acceptable to God. Cont'd in Page 2.
"And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment."
Acts 18:4
"And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks."
Galatians 3:28
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
Hebrews 4:9
"There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God."
God didn't create a covenant with Israel and abandon it forever as I see scripture; but he added implications for the Gentiles who eventually would along with believing Jews be one with Christ in the church ( Rom. 10:12; Gal. 3:28). I look at is as a sort of parabolic curve; where what happened in the past happens again in the future. We are of course referred to as "true Israel" as Galatians 3:29 alludes to; where true sons of Abraham are those called and chosen and therefore recieve all the blessings of the promise. We see even in the Old Testament examples of Gentiles who demonstrated true faith in the true God; just as we see those who were in Israel being judged due to rebellion and unbelief. Put another way the basic principle stood as to the exclusivity of national Israel under God's design for government being a "Theocracy" at the time but it wasn't the end all. We can also say that the laws invoked in the covenants were not the end but a means to reach the end; that is to be part of God's children and after temporal blessings enter into glory where eternal glories and promises are in effect. Thus we have the "great cloud of witnesses" mentioned in Hebrews 12:1 which are summarized in the former chapter in detail.
We talk about heaven but often fail to consider being part of heavenly armies and such which will return with Christ as we see towards the end of the book of Revelation. We don't consider spiritual rewards and ruling over the earth during the Millennium and whatever eternity will mean on a restored and recreated world. We are associated with the head; Christ just as the world is allied with Satan the god of this world. We need to also remember that for all Christ did for us we should ever be grateful; but also that doing the Father's will was THE most important thing; and if it was for Him it should be also for us; His covenant church.
Agape. Rich P
Here we read that Zechariah stands as the 'good shepherd', even as a shepherd who carries his two staves (an old plural for 'staffs') one for guiding & counting the sheep and the other for pulling in straying sheep, the prophet calls these staves, "Beauty and Bands". Some (v11, "the poor of the flock") received his message, but most refused to believe and so Zechariah asked for his wages, which was "thirty pieces of silver", which was the price of a slave. And this money, the LORD commanded the prophet to cast to the potter "in the house of the LORD", even as Judas would finally do in his betrayal of Jesus. The staves which once represented God's favor & delight ("Beauty") and binding together in Union ("Bands") of Israel and Judah, were both broken by the prophet showing their future rejection of God & His Christ. But those in Jesus, of both Israel & Gentiles, would become one & restored into intimate fellowship with God once again ( Galatians 3:28; John 17:20,21). Just thought to add a little more to help understand that prophetical Word from God through Zechariah.
Romans 10:12
"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."
Blessings