Discuss John 6 Page 9

Hello Fabian TAIMABRI,

Genesis 1:27, notice: Genesis 1:26,28,29,

Genesis 2:7, interestingly here "formed, breathed life" is this symbolic of the Church the body of Christ to come? John 12:25, Genesis 3:22, John 5:26, John 5:24, John 3:36, John 6:48,54, Titus 1:2, Romans 8:6, John 5:39,

Is chapter 2, symbolic of the stewardship of GOD's Church? Genesis 2:15, Matthew 20:8, Luke 12:42, Mark 12,

Back to Genesis 1, "man appears to be collective for both" yes in name like human, humanity, humankind "man"

see even more interesting = Genesis 5:2,

GOD says distinctly female & male Genesis 1:27,

It appears it could be those created to multiply, fill the earth, subdue were away from the presence of GOD, again seeming to point to the symbolism in the garden "in the presence of GOD " His church. Genesis 3:8, Genesis 3:23-24, Genesis 4:14-16,

Genesis 2:17, spiritual death? Matthew 8:22, Luke 9:60, Matthew 22:32, Matthew 23:27,

In the forming of Eve, it appears also specific, spiritual & special with symbolism, Genesis 2:21-25, Genesis 6:1-3, Mark 10:4-9, 1Corinthians 6:15, Revelation 21:2,9, Isaiah 62:5, John 3:29-36, Matthew 22, Luke 12:36, Ephesians 5:30-32,

1Corinthians 13:9-12, James 1:5, Ephesians 3:4,

Hopefully these are all helpful

"Once saved always saved" just like the english word "rapture" are not mentioned in scripture per se. There are verses about being sealed with the Spirit until the day of redemption ( Eph. 1:13-14). Actually the verse states our inheritance in KJV v. 14.

John 6:39 indicates that Christ will lose none that the Father has given Him. As to the rapture/Resurrection from the dead; we of course can read in Thessalonians and Corinthians on the event. The latin word comes from "rapturo" which means to snatch out; quickly remove.

A fundamental misunderstanding comes when the doctrine of Predestination is ignored in scripture; and God's initiation of salvation based on those of His choosing. Romans 8:30 makes this pretty clear and many other verses; particulary the Gospel of John are helpful (read John 10). Our repentance and sanctification as well as good works are all things the Lord has prepared in His Providence (see Ephesians 2:10). On our end; we are responsible to make a public confession; repent and live a Godly life; but if we attempt to do so without being regenerated we are trying to be saved on our terms. In the flesh; we can do as Judas Iscariot did; who was BTW called and chosen; but predestined to be the "son of perdition" as prophesied in Psalm 41:9. What is known as "decisional regeneration" by those who truly become Born Again must change our avoidance of consequences of our actions to that of a new regenerated heart which loves God. The Lord chastises all He loves ( Heb. 12:6).

These verses sort of fit together. It appears many are left behind to endure the Tribulation who were either tares or perhaps who thought they were saved. If they are to be saved; they will endure martyrdom and finally produce fruit to "make their garments white". Whether that includes backslidden believes now; I can't give a certain answer. We should all keep Luke 21:36 in mind as certainly all believers aren't in that mindset today. Agape; Rich P

Doug sir, the descriptive background wrote here regarding this journey explains to me that you cast aside your opinions, understandings from men, church teachings, and asked the Holy Ghost to lead you in all truth. Because of this you can see more clearly what is in the Word I would humbly ascertain.

The "rapture" is a contentious item, (pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath, no rapture and also inverse: removal of the wicked) I too sought answers on this. 1 Thes 4:17 The key word used in this argument is in English "caught up", in Latin "rapture", and in Greek "harpazo" G726. This same word in our KJV is used 13 times, some of interest in comparative study are Rev 12:5, Jude 1:23, Acts 8:39, John 6:15. We all have an opinion in this matter, but we are all in HIS body. Regardless of what we think, His Word will come to pass as He intends it too. Alleluia!

1 Thes 4:15 The key word here is "coming" G3952 parousia- par-oo-see'-ah

From the present participle of G3918; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: - coming, presence. (there is no 3rd coming, we are looking for the 2nd advent of Christ which is this, the harvest)

Who is the restrainer? Who is he who is letting until he be taken out the way? Jude 1:9, Dan 10:21, Dan 12:1

God bless you,

Josh

Douglas Borchard,

This prophecy gives the precise time of the first coming of the Messiah. You will receive different understandings of this, it is a study that will take much time. this is just a little information you may use to help your study.

Many put the last week of this prophecy at the end times. It is used for the 7 years of tribulation, a peace treaty with the antichrist (he in verse 27) for 3 1/2 years then 3 years of great tribulation with the taking of the church somewhere between (pre, mid, post).

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, (70 weeks, 70 x 7 = 490 solar years or 483 prophetic years) on the house of Israel (Daniel's people) and the holy city (Jerusalem). It started from "the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem", make a note, that the rebuilding of the temple is not in this prophecy.

Here are a few verses that may help your study and if this prophecy has been fulfilled or not.

1. To finish the transgression Isaiah 53:5, 8 Isaiah 53:11 Hebrews 9:15-18

2. To make an end of sins Matthew 1:21 Hebrews 10:8-11 John 1:29 1 Corinthians 15:3

1 John 3:5 Psalm 32 Romans 8:3

3. To make reconciliation for iniquity Colossians 1:20-22 Isaiah 53:6 Isaiah 53:11 Ephesians 2:16 ( Titus 2:14 2 Corinthians 5:18-19

4. To bring in everlasting righteousness Romans 5:17-21 Romans 3:21-26 1Peter 2:24

2 Corinthians 5:21 Isaiah 61:10-11

5. To seal up vision and prophecy Daniel 9:23 John 6:27 Mark 1:14-15 Acts 3:18

John 5:36-40 Matthew 11:11-15

6. To anoint the most holy Hebrews 8:1-12 Hebrews 9:6-14

The six things that were determined on Daniel's people and the holy city in this 70-week prophecy; did the Messiah/Jesus fulfill?

God bless,

RLW

The point of this scripture seems to be the " impossibility " that Jesus shows all things are possible. John 6:5-13,

Note: John 6:7 note the last part of that scripture says clearly "._._. is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may take a little. "

Regardless of amount of money, even clear understanding of money amounts for time, inflation, price gouging, sales, shortage etc. Historical understanding doesn't say what GOD's scripture does about the message He is saying to us.

1st John 6:6 "And this he said to prove him, for he himself knew what he would do."

It was Philip Jesus was talking to: John 6:5, & Phillip who answered: John 6:7, his answer was about financial calculation, earnings, lack, almost as if money was the only answer he had. Remember it was to prove him. When we see " impossibilities" where's our faith & solutions?

Matthew 14:13-21, Matthew 15:29-39, Mark 6:30-44, Luke 9:12-17,

Note Matthew 15:32-33,

In each account Jesus had healed all the sick.

Hopefully this is helpful

Hello Don. You asked, "has God preselected the ones who are to be saved through Christ?" I believe He has. But I don't believe that's the full story, because as you shared the reference Romans 8:29, those whom God has predestined were those He also foreknew.

If we then look at those aspects of God's Work in Romans 8:29,30, we see firstly, His Foreknowledge (a knowledge of all things past, present & future). Based on that knowledge, He predestined some to become His children (as His Son is & His adopted ones would be - Ephesians 1:5). Then God's Work upon us begins: those predestined are now called to come to Him/drawn to Him - John 6:44. Those whom He has called, God applied to them the outcome of the Cross, i.e. of Justification - the guilty declared not guilty by reason of substitutionary payment made on their behalf. And those so justified, have received glorification - in part now with the indwelling Holy Spirit (the "earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession" - our completed redemption & glorification fitted out for Heaven: Ephesians 1:14).

Then what part "does our faith in Christ Jesus do for us?" Those whom God has predestined, called, & justified, are those who would be blessed with the gift of Faith - Faith that is needed for God's Grace to do its mighty work ( Ephesians 2:8). What then is the Gift of God? It is both His Grace poured out upon us plus the Faith to apprehend it & fully rest in it. One might ask, 'Can such a person drawn of God resist Him?' I would reply with questions: 'Would God even draw one who wouldn't be saved? Would the one being drawn want to resist the Love of God in Christ & the Holy Spirit's Work of Conviction? And, even if barriers were set up by Satan to obstruct the passage of the sinner into eternal life, would not the God Who makes no mistakes, still bear upon the sinner that he might understand the Truth & find that his hope lay in Christ alone?' John 6:37-40 - none of His will be lost.

ELB, thanks for your message. I stand by the phrase "doing our (my) best to follow Him every day". Following Jesus is not easy and won't be in this realm. Adam took care of that and you and I and all of mankind have been paying the price of sin ever since. That's why He asked in Luke 6, why call ye me Lord, Lord and do not the things I say? He then goes on to say those who hear my sayings and does them are like the man who built his house on the rock. Then there's Ananias in Acts 9 who was told to go pray for Saul/Paul that He might show him those things Paul must suffer for His name.

Finally, in Romans 7:14-25, Paul relates the 'battle' that happens every day in all of us. The spirit versus the flesh. Thank God I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. But I have to persevere and not wander off or go back to the former self prior to conversion as Demas did to Paul in 2 Tim. 4:10. You're right when you say it's not my strength or ability, but Jesus. I have to choose Him daily. Not to be born again, mind you, but determined to follow Him, no matter what. I don't want to be like those who left following Him as recorded in John 6:66. Thanks for your time...

Good Afternoon, Bro Dan. I agree with you wholly. The Bible writings include many different literary genre's. I f someone is unsure whether the bible passage is meant to be taken in a way other than literally, then they can use the internet to get help with that from reputable Bible scholars.

But we know that some will not do so, trusting their own fallen minds and hearts and saying these are being led by the Spirit and they don't need anyone else to help them understand the Scripture.

Also, You and I and most likely others know that when Paul was talking about the letter killing in 2 Corinthians 3:6, he was talking about the O.T. Law (verses 3-11 to read the quoted Scripture by Alex in context) which condemns all of us because we have all broken this law, therefore bringing the penalty of sin on us, which is death.

Paul was not speaking of the written words of Scripture in both the O.T. and the N.T., otherwise the Scriptures that record the words of our Savior, Jesus, would be lethal, too, but He said that His Words are Spirit and Life ( John 6:63). We know this is not true. And we know that those who say that Paul was referring to the written words (letters) of Scripture kills are using this illogical view as a smokescreen to excuse themselves from refutation and to give creedance to the erroneous way they interpret much of Scripture as being allegorical, prophetic, and illustrative of deeper, hidden meanings and the way they mish-mash isolated Scriptures together, spattered with their erroneus interpretations to create a narrative that (like you said) rarely makes sense, is illogical, and does violence to the actual God-inspired Words He had the writers write with the context and genres He directed them to write.

Thank you for your response to A. I appreciate that you did.

Salvation is not doing your best, it is having Christ's best put to your account through receiving Him by faith. Christ died for our sins on the cross, He was buried and raised up bodily from the dead three days later. This is the Gospel ( 1st Corinthians 15:1-4).

John 6:28-29, "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." Believe and the work is done, you are saved securely and eternally.

Being eternally secure doesn't give us a license to sin and sin doesn't go without consequence to the born again either. But God is merciful and just to forgive. Don't be confused by the multitude of doctrines, religions, denominations, and regulations men condemn you for in the name of a ministry; if your Faith is in Christ and your Shield is His Word (the Holy KJV Bible)...be at peace and know your Salvation too cannot be taken from you.

For me to step on your toe is no sin its an accident, for me to stomp your toe and hurt you is no accident its a sin and a Christian won't stomp your toe. But a Christian may step on your toe by accident. Does it hurt if I step on your toe - YES, could I have avoided it maybe, but I should say i'm sorry and try not to do it again.

Yes Judas was called and chosen ( John 6:70) Judas sold our SAVIOR for $$$ - (went to far no chance to repent), and Peter denied him there are greater sins than others.

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art (converted), strengthen thy brethren. 62 And Peter went out, and wept bitterly.

Hi Earl.

It's funny you have given scriptures to be examined literally!

However.

You have given 6 scriptures and added or taken away from each and misapplied them! What you seem to often put in parentheses is errored!

When confronted you hide behind spiritualation.

I'm not going to deal with all of them but here is an example of your errors.

You say "Job said Satan came in "WITH MAN" to present himself to God."

When has man ever been able to go to and fro the Earth?

When has man ever been able to present himself to God?

Answer. Never!

John 1:18.

John 6:46.

Here's that account in scripture.

Job 1:6. Now there was a day when the SONS OF GOD came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Sons of God in this passage are Angels.

Your view is that Satan is mans flesh. "He doesn't exist"

So who's responsible for Jobs losses? And who is God interacting with in Job 1. ?

I'm sorry but I can't entertain that.

My point is taken in your reply!

If there is no Satan, No hell, and no consequences for sin, There's no Gospel/Good news in your message

why do you passionately bother?

according to you whether we receive or not we suffer the same fate. Why was Christ crucified?

That is not a message from God.

No response needed

God bless.

Advocate - 1 John 2:1

Alive for Evermore - Rev 1:18

All Knowing Psalm 139:1-6

All, and in All - Colossians 3:11

Almighty - Revelation 1:8

Alpha and Omega - Revelation 1:8

Altar - Hebrews 13:10

Altogether Lovely - Song of Solomon 5:16

Amen - Revelation 3:14

Ancient of Days - Daniel 7:13 & Daniel 7:22

Anointed One - 1 Samuel 2:35

Author of Eternal Salvation - Hebrews 5:9

Author of our Faith - Hebrews 12:2

Balm of Gilead - Jeremiah 8:22

Banner over us - Ps 60:4, S of Sol 2:4

Bearer of Sin - Hebrews 9:28

Before All Things - Colossians 1:17

Beginning and Ending - Revelation 1:8

Bishop of our Souls - 1 Peter 2:25

Blessed and Only Potentate - 1 Timothy 6:15

Blessed Hope - Titus 2:13

Bread of Life, my manna - John 6:35

Bridegroom - John 3:29

Bright and Morning Star - Revelation 22:16

Brightness of His Glory - Hebrews 1:3

Buckler - Psalms 18:30

Captain - Joshua 5:14-15, Hebrews 2:10

Changeless One - Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 13:8

Chief Among 10,000, S. of Solomon 5:10

Chosen of God - 1 Peter 2:4

Christ - Matthew 1:16 - 1 John 5:1

Comforter - John 14:16-18

Consolation of Israel - Luke 2:25

Counselor - Isaiah 9:6

Creator - Romans 1:25 - Isaiah 40:28

Crown of Glory - Isaiah 28:5

Hello Free: Yes, "a free will will end in disaster" every time when it goes against God's will. Kay spoke of surrendering to Christ and being in submission to Him. I believe that is the key to everything. The things you wrote are a perfect example of what it means to be in submission to God's will. I love how you never gave yourself credit for the things in your walk with the Lord, but you credit Him for everything. Amen!

I want to just comment on your last statement "Walk on the road and always be happy, know that we will come home to the Father Himself and see Jesus and all the loved ones who have gone before us."

Free, that is a beautiful statement. We can know with complete confidence that we one day will be brought home. In fact, it is God's will to bring us home one day, and His will can never be broken. ( John 6:39-40). God Bless you!

Reply to Adam.

1 John 3:9 tells us

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (We are the sons of God right now)

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (All true believers will purify themselves. Fake believers will not.)

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. (Jesus takes away all sins of true believers, past, present, and future.)

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. (Those who continue to abide in Jesus do not continue to live in sin.)

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. (Sinners who live in sin are of the devil.)

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (True Christians cannot sin because their Godly nature is miraculously united as one with the Spirit of God who cannot sin.)

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Marke,

I agree with you and Mishael brings up a great point in that Judas was called the son of perdition. Son of perdition is a title, and in the Bible, that's only given to two people; Judas Iscariot and the antichrist that is yet to come. He's called the son of perdition, the son of destruction, which means this is who he was and has been his entire life.

Jesus said I have not lost one, except the son of perdition (Judas), and then the Greek text gives a (purpose clause/INA), in order that the scripture might be fulfilled. Jesus answered them, "have not I chosen you 12 and one of you is a devil," a demon.

Jesus didn't choose Judas to be a devil. He says one of you is already a devil. I'm choosing you as already being a devil. But it is interesting that Satan entered into him.

Now this whole concept of Judas Iscariot in God's plan helps us to understand how God works with people. Some people call it predestination.



Jesus did not predestine Judas to be evil. But Jesus had to choose an evil man to do the evil purpose which God planned. God already knows who is going to choose Christ and who is going to choose evil.



He already knows that. So if He is going to choose someone to be in amongst God's people to fulfill His Scripture in an evil way, He will pick out somebody who is already evil.

I don't believe Judas was ever saved. Judas was evil from the very beginning. Even though Judas was part of the fellowship for 3 years, he remained evil the entire time.

We know he was stealing money from the money bag. The Bible tells us that he was a thief. It would be hard for me to describe someone as evil as Judas as being a Christ follower. And yet, some choose to call him that, and some believe he was saved at one point.

To call Judas a Christ follower would be equivalent to saying that everyone who goes to church on a regular basis is a Christ follower and is saved. I wonder how many like Judas are in our fellowships today?

Hello Marke,

It sounds like we're getting closer to the root of your belief. I noticed you used statements in the "If... then..." format to draw some assumptions. Here is an example:

You: "If we assume this passage speaks of Christians who get saved but then lose it again for violating the whole law of God then we must assume nobody will ever be saved in the end except those Christians who die immediately after receiving Christ."

The first part of your sentence is correct as James 1:1 says he's a Christian and he's writing to 12 tribes and is right away instructing them to not worry about temptations because their faith will build patience (verse 3). Most of Paul's books were to Christians churches too and it usually says this in the first verse of each. So, it's safe to say that yes, the book of James is for Christians.

While the first part of your sentence rings true, the last part is what sounded alarm bells. "we must assume nobody will ever be saved in the end except those Christians who die immediately after receiving Christ."

No, I don't know anyone who assumes that or where that idea comes from? Is it possible that you're engaging in black or white thinking and through that filter you aren't seeing a difference between an imperfect (normal) grace-covered Christ follower and a Christian who decides to denounce Christ and go in a different direction? One scenario is a normal person covered by grace while following the Lord, the other is someone who chooses to no longer follow the Lord- not covered.

Example:

Let's say you're driving down a freeway towards Seattle. You may encounter traffic, you may swerve to avoid obstacles on the road, you may even get lost and exit off and recollect yourself, you may even get a flat tire, but overall you're still following the path to your destination. However, if you at some point made a choice to turn around and go in the opposite direction, then you would no longer be going to Seattle. This is a metaphor for following Christ.

Reply to Giannis.

John 6:70

Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Jesus said Judas "is a devil," not "will become a devil."

The record of John 6 was long before the record of John 13.

John 13:2

And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;

If Judas was ever made righteous by faith, where is the evidence? He walked with Jesus but so did others who were not saved.

Jesus said of Judas in Mark 14:

21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

The OT prophesied of Judas

Psalm 109:6-8

King James Version

6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.

7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.

I believe Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas was unsaved and would never get saved and chose him to serve alongside the other 11 apostles just the same.

8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.

Reply to Adam.

Matt. 7:23. Jesus says "I never knew you," not "I once knew you before you fell away."

Hebrews 6:4-9. Tasting and not drinking in this passage is described as demonstrating that those professing Christians do not possess those things that accompany genuine salvation.

James 2. If we assume this passage speaks of Christians who get saved but then lose it again for violating the whole law of God then we must assume nobody will ever be saved in the end except those Christians who die immediately after receiving Christ.

1 Peter 1:13. If we assume salvation depends on us buckling up and holding on tight to the side of the ark after we are saved to be saved until the end then we must also assume that Jesus did not die for all our sins, just those sins in our past. If Jesus did not die for the sins that were in our future when we got saved, then who will ever be saved in the end? What kind of sin will cause a believer to end up in hell after he was once saved?

Peter did not blaspheme the Holy Ghost in the courtyard. That is not what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is. If Peter did blaspheme in the courtyard so what? Jesus said all sins and blasphemies will be forgiven sinners, both saved and lost, except for the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit as a result of rejecting the message of the Holy Spirit pointing sinners to Jesus for salvation. Once a sinner receives the message of the Holy Spirit and gets saves he can no longer blaspheme the Holy Spirit leading him to be saved because the Holy Spirit will never again lead him to be saved after he is already saved.

Mark 3:28-29

King James Version

28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Judas Iscariot was a Christ follower, literally and figuratively. Mark 3:14-19. He was one of Jesus's chosen disciples and was given power to cast out demons.

Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus, died a horrible death, and will probably go to hell. So, this example only supports the scriptures that already say you still have freewill to turn from Jesus if you are a Christian. What better proof do we need by scripture saying it, examples of it happening to people, real examples of people doing it today (including Christian pastors). I don't buy the argument that some say "they were never Christians to begin with" as that position contradicts itself, because those who say that can't define what a Christian is or how they know they are one. If one Googles prominent pastors who have lost their faith, denounced Christianity and denounced Jesus of course there are many. There's also a Reddit forum called ex-Christian. It's easy to talk to them and find out if they are real or not. Obviously they are. So, someone claiming that they aren't real is denying reality that they are, and if they say they were never Christian, talk to them yourselves- of course they were. They were just like you. This is why the Bible says to keep the armor of God on, all the parable warnings, etc.

Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"

Matthew 7:21-23

Hebrews 6:4-6

James 2:14-26

James 2:19

1 Peter 1:13

Romans 11

Simon Peter denied Jesus 3 times and I think that would normally be considered blasphemy of the holy spirit the unforgiveable sin. But I believe Jesus restored him in a special circumstance in John 21:11-25 as you notice he first reconfirmed if Peter believed He was Lord, then asked him 3 times if He loved Him (using different Love meanings) and then in 19 said to Follow me. This appears to be a rededication to restore Peter as a follower and Christian.

God bless

Dear Mark, if Judas was never saved then Jesus chose a devil to serve Him as an apostole? He baptised him, sent him ro baptise other people, sent him to preach salvation to Israelites like the rest of the apostles, to perform miracles knowing that he was a devil? Does this make sense? He became devil later on when he let satan and not Jesus to work in him. Remember Ananias and Sapphira in the Book of Acts? GBU

One of Judas's names in the Bible is son of Perdition

Earl

I do not think Scripture supports that the first resurrection of saints has happened yet. I think Jesus speaks to raising us up on the last day, ( John 6:40)

"And this is the will of Him (Jesus' Father) who sent mem that everyone who sees the Son (Jesus) and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I (Jesus) will raise him (believer) up on the last day." (NIV)

So my understanding from what Jesus, our Lord and Saviour has said, we will be resurrected when He comes for the second time in history at the end of this age, on the last day. That is when our dead bodies will be raised and then changed into incorruptible and unperishable bodies like Jesus has and will enter everlasting life in this body.

Note: I quote NIV because that is the version I have at home in hard copy, so one can look up these Scriptures I cite as NIV in the KJV. The reason I came on this site in the first place was to read the KJV and '"whollah" found this discussion page.)

Judas was never saved so he did not lose his salvation, according to John 6:70.

John 6:70

Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Jesus did not say, "One of you disciples may fall back into sin if he is not careful." No, Jesus said, "One of you is a devil," referring to Judas.

Hi Rutendo. We're not told specifically why Zebedee didn't join his sons to follow Jesus, but I suspect that a good reason would be that Zebedee wasn't called by Jesus to join Him. Jesus knew which men were to be selected to be His disciples, even as He chose Judas Iscariot who would betray Him ( John 6:70,71), so even though there were many other disciples of Jesus (those who followed Him around), only 12 were specifically selected to be with Him continually & Zebedee wasn't one of them.

Others here might have other thoughts why Zebedee continued with repairing the nets & going about his business - though he probably felt the extra workload upon him, being short of helping hands. Anyway, he probably realized then, or soon after, that this call by Jesus upon his sons, was far more important than trying to prevent them from joining Jesus.

Hi Giannis.

Again thanks for your reply.

We're in agreement with the blessings of Abraham to all people by faith.

But we are in disagreement that the keeping of the law binds those promises. Galatians 3:17 says otherwise.

You mentioned Matthew 19:28.

Now quoting you concerning judas.

Your quote:

"Remember that Jesus said to all 12 apostoles, including Judas, that they will sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel. Did that come true for Judas? No, because Judas at the end walked another way. What is then happened to that promise given to Israel? It was gone as soon as they crucified Jesus and took some other way. God's promises are never unconditional,"

End quote.

Judas didn't catch Jesus by surprise and he was prophesied to betray Jesus in the old testament. And early on in John 6:70.

Take a look at the verse you referred to.

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have FOLLOWED ME, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Several things here.

Jesus sitting on his throne doesn't depend on his disciples following him. If so it wouldn't be still expected after Christ was crucified, as seen here in Acts 15:14-17. and elsewhere in scripture after the crucifixion.

Jesus says That ye which have FOLLOWED ME. A desciple is one that follows one's teachings . Does that sound like Jesus?

When were they sent out with the power and influence of the Holyspirit? After Jesus resurrection and after the death of Judas. Paul was born out of due season. There's your twelve.

Concerning 1949. yes they're in the land but is Christ sitting on David's throne?

They won't behold him as a nation until they say blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord. And is the lion laying down with the Lamb? Is the devil chained a thousand years? None of the Millennium prophecies have been fulfilled. See Isaiah 65:19.

God bless.

And yet Jesus says in John 6:44, "No man can come to me, except the (Father) which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Why the difference here?

Sanaytrah,

You've touched on something very important. Once we're saved, the battle that takes place is for our minds. Satan knows he has lost us forever to Christ, and he knows that he cannot take Christ away from us. But once we're saved, our next step is to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. So what Satan do? He tries to keep our minds distracted so that we won't have time to study the word of God because without studying the word, there can be no growth. Satan puts doubt in a believers mind about their salvation. He is the one that wants us to believe we can lose Christ. God's Spirit in us would never do that.

Yes, In Hebrews 13, Jesus said I will never leave you nor forsake you, and that's very important to understand. I will NEVER leave you. That has a double negative in the Greek text. Jesus said I will never leave you. That is, I'll never leave if you tell me to, not ever, (double negative). Nor will I EVER forsake you, (triple negative in the Greek text). In Greek, this denotes the strongest impossibility of something ever happening. Jesus will NEVER leave you. It will never happen!

If salvation could be lost, that would mean it is something we did to lose it. However, if it is something we do to lose it, that would also mean that we have the power to break God's will. John 6:37 tells us that we are given to Jesus by the Father. And Jesus says all that the Father gives to Him, He will in (no wise) cast out.

We see God's will in John 6:39-40. Everybody that the Father draws will come, and everybody that comes to the Son, Jesus will lose no one. It is God's will that not one single person who He has given to Christ will ever be lost or cast out. So, if we believe that salvation can be lost, we must also believe that that we are capable of breaking God's will.

I am running out of space, but will send another post as (Part 2).

Linda, you said, "Jesus Wanted To (Reveal) Who The One Devil Was: That (Jesus Had To Choose) To Be A Disciple Of His."

I think you're unnaturally fixated on Peter being the Devil, rather than looking at the actual person Jesus was pointing to. Read John 6:70,71: "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." Peter wasn't the devil-filled person in the room - Judas was. Anyone, then & now, who stands against or wilfully obstructs Jesus' Words & the Words in the Scriptures, does so by the inspiration of Satan. It happened to both Judas & Peter - it can happen to you & me. Let us "tremble at His Word"; giving Satan no room to influence & misguide us into gross error.

No further comment needed on your remaining thoughts, as I dealt with them previously.

God forbid, Linda, that I would make the Lord Whom I love, and His truth that I love, a liar. Jesus is my joy, and His Word my light. I know what I am apart from both Christ and His Word, and I am indeed a great debtor to His free grace and mercy.

I have read several commentaries on John 6:70,71 since our discussion, in addition to prayerfully meditating with the Lord's help for myself. I've also been studying, along with John 17:12. They all say the son of perdition, the devil, the murderer, the betrayer, is Judas.

I won't respond to any further discussion, because I see it's pointless. I have fulfilled my duty. I will just say that I have been so grieved over this whole discussion. I think of Revelation 13:6, speaking of antichrist, and how he blasphemes the saints in heaven. We need to be careful of what spirit we are of, when we speak about one of the servants of God. You are a much braver woman than I to do so.

Peter, though a loud-mouth at times, though prideful at times, though influenced by the devil in that very tragic circumstance...at length was restored and became a great blessing to the church of God then, and even to this day, by the letters that he penned and left for us, which contain so much precious truth. Peter, once filled with the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, preached the gospel of the Lord that he loved; and was faithful unto death. Would the HOLY SPIRIT dwell inside a devil???

I entrust you to the One Who is the best Teacher in the World, and I myself ask for continued wisdom and insight from God's Word. I need His help moment by moment, and am utterly lost apart from Him.

Thank you for the interesting discussion, though we differ.

That is very true, Linda. He that continually, with unrepentance, denies the Son, does not have the Father either. What Peter did was a sad, sorry, sinful lapse; it was a singular fall, due to human weakness, not sinful will and rebellion.

Peter's testimony AFTER he wept bitterly (immediately showing the first signs of repentance) - he was restored, and truly had both the Father and the Son! :)

And you must remember, as I pointed out, and others here did as well, John 6:71! The Holy Spirit TESTIFIES that Jesus was speaking of Judas...not Peter, when He said, "One of you is a devil."

I get what Peter did.

Linda, I myself, in times of weakness in my flesh, 'denied' Jesus by my words and deeds. There is NO 'sinless perfection' on THIS side of heaven. ALL of our sins and failures are denials -- yet, we who are born from above, DO have Jesus and the Father, and though we oft fail and fall miserably - by the grace of Jesus and His power - we will not fall fatally.

Praise Jesus!

Grace to you, Linda!