Discuss Luke 16 Page 10

Some believe that while Jesus' body was in the tomb, His spirit was in hell. Scripture does not support that position when it is taken in context and we look at the meaning of the word "hell." In the Old Testament, the place of the dead or the place of departed souls was called "Sheol." It was to this place that all souls of the dead went to await resurrection.

In the New Testament, we find the story of Lazarus and the rich man who both died and went to Hades ( Luke 16:19-31). The King James translates the Greek word "hades" as hell but most other translations use the Greek word. Hades had two separated parts. Those who died in faith believing in God's promise waited for the resurrection in Abraham's Bosom. Those who died spiritually separated from God wait in torment for the resurrection unto death, or eternal separation from God. The rich man was on the torment side and Lazarus was in Abraham's Bosom, which was called "paradise" by the LORD Jesus Christ when He addressed the thief who found faith the day Jesus was crucified ( Luke 23:42-43)

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" ( 2 Peter 2:4). The word translated "hell" here is not the Greek word "hades" but is the Greek word "tartarus" meaning abyss or the lowest regions. This could very well be the "gulf" that was fixed between the place of torment and Abraham's Bosom ( Luke 16:26).

Wherefore He saith, When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that He ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that He might fulfill all things Eph 4:8-10. Leading captivity captive seems to refer to Jesus taking all those that waited in Paradise to heaven to be with Him. The descending into the "lower parts" then refers to Jesus mission of declaring victory

Richard, with all due respect to your understanding of Scripture, but I would direct you to Luke 16:19-31, and specifically, verse 23: "And in hell (Gk. Hades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." And verse 28: "For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment."

And Mark 9:43,44: "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell (Gk. geennan, or Gehenna), into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

This is the sad state of all those who reject Christ & His Gospel - eternal torment awaits them & for this cause the Gospel has to be preached so that men may know the Truth & flee the torment to come. Let's not get trapped in the JW teaching of only death awaiting the sinner - if only ultimately death with little or no suffering, then why flee to the One Who gave His Life to save us from God's Wrath & Judgement. As I ask this to the JWs who visit me (or, used to visit), what then is your Gospel? Is it only to be able to be a part of God's Kingdom or perish into the dust if we reject the Gospel? There's nothing to flee from. If that was the choice given to me, I doubt if I would be moved to convert - yes, it would be lovely to experience eternal life with the Lord, but if it meant that the other option was just to disappear into the earth, then that's not much reason to change my lifestyle. Many believe that now: that there's no God & nothing after the grave. I came to the Lord because of the Spirit's Work of conviction in my heart, of Who God is & that His Judgements against the sinner are certain & that there is eternal suffering for those who reject His offer. It would be lovely to think that a sinner can eventually find freedom from torment but for Revelation 21:8.

Luke 16:22-23 ESV / 6 helpful votesNot Helpful. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. read the rest yourself. (Hades is not hell, But a place where we will be judged.)

How do you understand Luke 16:19-31? Some believe it to be another parable of Jesus, but the fact that Jesus uses first names seems to indicate that Jesus was speaking of real people in real situations.

And Paul also speaks in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 of the fact that while he is in the body (alive on Earth) he is not in God's Presence. But if he is absent in the body (no longer alive on Earth), then he is in God's Presence. Again, some would say that there is a 'gap' between death & man's spirit going to be with the Lord or to Hell but I can't grasp this interpretation, given Paul's inference of a 'no gap' declaration.

We also see 1 Peter 3:18-20, where "Jesus was quickened by the Spirit (after His Crucifixion) & by the Spirit visited those other spirits held captive in prison, those who were disobedient from Noah's days. The point here is not who those spirits were but that they were held captive, whether in a state of suffering or in transition to another state of punishment.

What should we make of such indicators of one's spirit (& soul) departing at death to a place of rest or torment?

Remember how Jesus said that man cannot serve both God and mammon(riches, status, fleshly esteem)? Matthew 6:24, Luke 16:13

Hello Adam,

Yes, I am a servant of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The standard I only desire to use is God's Word, and this is the only standard anyone can use regarding the truth( John 17:17).

Whether we, still imperfect in our sinful flesh, can "know" if we are saved or not is a good question. God tells us to examine ourselves, to see if we are in the faith( 2 Cor. 13:5). We examine if we are walking in agreement with God.

The whole of God's Word shows us that once we are born again, we become a new creature( 2 Corinthians 5:17). We are to be dead to our old ways. Dead to the ways of the world, because the world is wicked( 1 John 5:19). We are not to continue practicing sin( Titus 2:12, James 1:27).

We will still sin because we are still imperfect. ( Romans 7:23-24, Philippians 3:12, Ephesians 4:13). The difference is we do not continue PRACTICING sin, or WILLFULLY sinning. God does not judge by appearance, but by the TRUE state of our HEARTS( Luke 16:15, John 7:24).

If we continue our old practice - our dead in our sins way of living AFTER we become saved, we were never saved/born again to begin with( Hebrews 10:26, Hebrews 10:38-39, 1 John 2:15, 2 Peter 2:20-22).

We are still in the world but we are not of the world( John 17:16, Romans 12:2). On the contrary, we are tasked by the Lord to be examples & witnesses to the world( Philippians 2:15, Matthew 5:14, Romans 10:9-11, 13-15, 2 Corinthians 4:13).

This, I believe, is the "key" to knowing whether or not we are truly saved. If we truly believe.

Page 2.

So in Luke 16:17 & Matthew 5:17, Jesus was making it clear that the Law could never fail - what God had given stands true & firm in its purity & application for every life for every age. And indeed, Jesus' coming was to fulfil that Law (& the prophecies about Him). I see no problem here as all that He said did happen. Then back to my question: why then did Jesus have to die? Could not that Perfect Law have saved us, with maybe a touch of extra grace from God to carry us over the line? After all, we do love God with all our hearts & want to observe all that He has directed us to do; we just need a little more of His understanding & resulting pardon to give us the needed assurance & comfort. But if we have His pardon based only on His Son's death, what then could that Law given do for us? Could it have given us "Life"? No, it only brought condemnation & death. "Is the Law then against the Promises of God"? No, "for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law." Gal 3:21.

As believers, saved by grace through faith, we can never resort to the Law, whether for some merit or to add to the saving work of Christ on the Cross. Jesus' death & resurrection cancelled out any claims or adherence to the Law, for "the Law is not of faith". Gal 3:12. Yes, the Law is good & perfect, but "the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did". And that hope was only Jesus Who was "made a surety of a better testament."

Brother Chris,

I will disagree with much of your stated understanding of scripture, and your comment that you "not only would cancel the 4th commandment, but you would cancel all 10 commandments.

I will let Jesus answer the issue in regard to the 10 commandments:

Mathew 23:36-40 36Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Below Jesus himself answers the question of canceling the Law.

Luke 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.

17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

If Jesus was going cancel the law and the commandments he would have said as much, as he had many chances to do so as stated above in these scriptures.

I agree we are not under obligation of the old jewish traditional laws of the old testament like the various sabbath feasts, sacrifices and rituals etc. But it is a gigantic stretch of the imagination to apply this also to cancel the 4th commandment. Only Jesus or God can cancel one of the commandments. The commandments were written in stone, and will stand forever. God did not put the old Jewish ceremonial laws in stone - big difference.

God's law is the 10 commandments.

Luke 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.

17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Jesus observed the Saturday sabbath while here on earth. Yes, he performed many things to heal and help others on the Sabbath. In doing so he was teaching all of us that we are to help others on the sabbath. When Jesus was accused of breaking the sabbath he instructed that certain things could be performed on this day. He DID NOT say to his accusers that the sabbath is no longer effective. To the contrary, he acknowledged it!

Mark 2: 27-28 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. Why would Jesus say that he is Lord of the Sabbath if there is no longer a Sabbath?

I'm not willing to follow the crowd today - that think there are only 9 commandments.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in there at: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

God Bless.

No. He wasn't. In fact, he said in 2 Samuel 11:8, "and I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given thee such and such things."

In the very next verse, he makes it very clear that he was angry because David had "despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight" by having Uriah killed and taking his wife. This was the word of the LORD spoken by Nathan the prophet. But he probably wasn't too happy about David's committing adultery with her before that, either.

Neither the LORD (God, the Father) nor Jesus EVER condemned any man at any time for having more than one wife, although I'm sure there were plenty around that did, even in the time of Jesus. There are still polygamous marriages in some countries even today.

What Jesus said was that if a man put one wife away (divorced her) to marry another, except if she had committed fornication, he was guilty of adultery and causing her and any future husband she might have to commit adultery. You have to read all accounts of his discourse on divorce to see that he's talking about putting her away in order to marry another. These are found in Matthew 5:31&32, Matthew 19:9, Mark 10:11&12, and Luke 16:18. So we see that, if a man had five wives, he was okay, but he could not put one away so that he could marry another. Perhaps this meant so he could afford to marry another. I don't know. But he could put her away for fornication. Why didn't he say adultery? Because adultery carried an automatic death sentence in those days. No divorce was necessary.

Too, Mark 10:12 shows that a woman could also put away her husband, but was under the same rules as the man pertaining to divorce.

Luke 16:30

The word 'Repent' means a lot more than what people by nature have been conditioned to believe. It is the key principle of all the teachings of Jesus Christ and the axiom (basis) of the Word of God and a prerequisite and primary requirement for the salvation of mankind. It actually means the changing of spirits - to turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan unto God ( Acts 26:18).



For a better understanding and the 'spiritual truth' of what it means to repent, and learn how and by whom mankind has been deceived ( Rev. 12:9) and what people must do to be reunited with the true and living God, we invite you to seek Him according to the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive ( Matthew 7:7; John 14:17).

You need not that any man teach you ( Isaiah 54:13; 6:45; 1 John 2:27), as mankind follows after an image of a false god and a false Christ ( Matthew 24:24; Mark 13:22; Gal. 4:8; 2 Cor. 11:13-15; Rev. 12:9).

It is only by revelation of God that you will come to know Christ ( Daniel 12:4,9; Amos 3:7; Matthew 16:17; Luke 2:26; Romans 16:25; 1 Cor. 2:10; Gal. 1:16; Eph. 3:3,5; Rev. 1:1), and only then will you be able to overcome the spirit of this world ( 1 John 5:4; Rev. 3:21) and learn what true Repentance is.

Mark 6:12

And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Luke 3:3

And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

Luke 3:8

Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Luke 5:32

I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 10:13

Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.

Luke 11:32

The men of Nineveh shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. (Jesus)

Luke 13:3

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luke 13:5

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luke 15:7

I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Luke 15:10

Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

Luke 16:30

And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Chris,

Concerning "where do our souls go after we die."

I see it basically the same way you do.

I try to always make it a point to use Scripture to back up Scripture (as you do); otherwise, I don't have much to say.

I use the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to justify that our bodies return to dust, and our "spirit returns to God Who gave it" ( Ecclesiastes 12:7).

I am hoping and praying that I am on the right side of the gulf waiting with Abraham and Lazarus and the others that have made it ( Luke 16:26).

Irene, I'm sad to read of your son's situation & unhappiness. Many of the world in this situation would do what they think is right for them & go on to remarry & hopefully be happy again. But since you're seeking Scriptural guidance on this, I see that the Lord & the apostle Paul were very clear on this issue as pertaining to God's view on marriage.

Jesus spoke about this in Matthew 19:3-9. Jesus first gives the meaning of marriage: that it is a binding act since these individual people have come together in marriage & have become 'one flesh'. This means that God doesn't recognize divorce as those two have become one flesh by their act of commitment & consummation. Then Paul spoke in 1 Cor 7:10-11, that if one departs (divorces) from the other, then they should remain in the state of singleness (this applied to both husband & wife, even though the instruction was given for the woman). For if they should remarry, then they break the covenant made towards the holy gift of marriage. For this reason, apart from turning to Christ for salvation, the decision for marriage remains so important a step to embark on.

If your son is a believer, then God understands his situation & will give Him sufficient Grace to keep on the path of obedience to remain single for His sake.

My 49 y.o son has always been spiritual and follows the scriptures. His marriage was based on his partners pregnancy.It turned out to be loveless marriage. They are now divorced but he feels guilty because what the Bible says about divorce

His life is stifled and can't move on.

Should he return to a loveless/ sexless mariage because of the scripture ???

good part of the bible it teaches us to do good things and gives others a helping hand :)

Can I say my Brothers, by the Word, it does seem water baptism does matter, there is a correct way, and in whose name we do know.

Acts 10:44

"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word."

Acts 10:48| View Chapter| Context

And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

Acts 8:38| View Chapter| Context

And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Both went down into the water and he baptised him.

Matthew 28:19| View Chapter| Context

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Did not even the Lord command us to go and teach all nations baptizing them in His name.

From the Word it is important, from the Word there was a way of doing it, from the Word we have been told to do it.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

The Word is our absolute and that we all agree.

God bless you my Brothers, as for me, in humility to His Word, I want to take it just as He said it or moved His people to write It.

Before the work of Jesus on the Cross and the resurrection the old testament saints went to paradise in the center of the earth. There are many scriptural references to this fact.

Thief on the cross Luke 23:43

Rich man and Lazarus Luke 16:20 through 24

1 Peter 3:9

Mathew 12:40

In the parable of the unjust steward ( vs 1-12 ) we are commonly taught the lesson of being trustworthy - indeed very important! However, there is a second, and also very important lesson - not being corrupt as were the debtors who instantly took the opportunity to lower their debt knowing

full well they were stealing.

Verse 42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath SAVED thee.--How many did Jesus save while on earth (not sure) but many. -- Matthew 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. -17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

The parable is about making decisions that leave you Places to work/live uninterrupted by poverty/homelessness/slavery. Accused of inefficiency, "wasting" in a competitive world (happens in business). He believed the accounting would not show him efficient. So while he still had authority he gave discounts, thus making obligatory friends in his business category. The master commended because he instantly went from cautionary tale, to glowing example of success, not even losing step, and because he thought through and made a stellar business decision, rather than reacting/fretting; when he could surely have easily preoccupied in the potential doom/gloom.

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Galatians:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. (11) I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets

Revelation 6:9-11
Mark 12:18
Mark 12:24-27
Luke 16:20-31
Hebrews 12:1
These are the scriptures I found hopefully it's helpful

This scripture has the same meaning with this one Luke 16:9. "And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when you fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations."

2 Esdras 6:9 For Esau is the end of the world, and Jacob is the beginning of it that followeth. Abraham s bosom is a parable that Christ used to explain this verse Lazarus representing Jacob and the rich man that had 5 brothers represent the 6 tribes of Esau...the Edomites being the rulers of this earth right now the Illuminati, the Bilderbergs, the top 1 whatever you want to call them! The scriptures prophesy that the Edomites will b ruling the earth And as it was written..Jacob held on to Esau s heel representing that Jacob will pull down this wicked Edomite kingdom that we currently live in and Jacob s seed will be the rulers to come! A everlasting righteous rule, wit no more war

Office of Prophet and Apostle have ceased but their work goes on until The Rapture.. Luke 16:16..Law and The Prophets were until John, The Baptist..But All that Proclaim God's Word are doing The Work of a Prophet. Office of Apostle was a Special Office With Signs or Gifts from God to Prove Their Office.. 2nd Cor. 12: 12 and had to be Men who Witnessed Life and Resurrection of Jesus .Replaced Judas

Significant doctrinal passage. On earth, the rich man had a name of importance and was known by Lazarus in this life was only known as that disgusting beggar that dares to live in our neighborhood. Though he was poor in goods he was - as it appears - rich in faith. In the hereafter, the saved are known by their name but the lost are now nobody. Lost their own souls. Gone. Forgotten.

Yes I believe we will. According to scripture in Luke 16:22-23 the rich man knew Lazarus and Abraham. I know he wasnt in heaven but I believe we God is truth and why would he hid the truth of our life. I believe our life just carries on from this life to the next. I know it will be much different. The new bodies and lives but I think we will remember everything.

Hell is real! God is not playing with us,if we don't repeat truly from our hearts we will be just like the rich man. It will be to late and in hell we will no everything. The heart have to want to change.

Luke 16:22-25 was just a parable. The Bible is as clear as day where the dead go and is back to the ground until Christ's second coming when they shall be resurrected. Eccl 9:5,6, 1 Thess 4:16,17, Dan 12:2. It was based on what the Sadducees believed that the righteous ascend when they die while sinners burn eternally in hell and there is no resurrection after physical death.