"What "heaven" is being referred to" should be considered
For thus saith the LORD that created the "HEAVENS"; (Plural) God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. Isaiah 45:18.
The Heavenly realm represent the celestial abode of God and angels, the ultimate reward for the righteous, a spiritual realm separate from our physical universe.
I'm not sure if that's what's being made new in Revelation 21:1. I would need convincing scriptures.
Job 1:6 reads "Now there was a day when the sons of God CAME TO PRESENT THEMSELVES before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Where did the sons of God come from to present themselves to God?
Perhaps "to and fro in the earth?
We know that's true of Satan considering verse seven.
We know very little about the Heavenly realm of God.
We read in Jesus's longest prayer in John 17. For the reason Jesus was sent, He says, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
There is one people of God, as stated in Ephesians 2:15-16.
Scripture does not teach that Israel and the Church are two peoples of God with two destinies. Our final destiny is Revelation 21:1-7. There is not one verse in the Bible that outright says we go or are taken to heaven. From Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21, the entire Bible is about the Plan of God and the grace of God. From the beginning of creation. Revelation 3:14 to the end, Revelation 22:12-13.
Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
The mystery is that the blessings of Abraham might come on all believers, Jew or Gentile, through Jesus Christ, Galatians 3:14. Jesus had to fulfill the covenant of the law to bring in the new covenant that was prophesied in Daniel 9:27.
The Bible has one theme, one covenant of grace, with one Church united in Christ, with Gentile salvation in view from the beginning. Jews were being saved back then, and today, in God's plan for ethnic Jews, not by giving them a separate destiny as a separate people of God, but by bringing them back to Jesus Christ through faith.
"The LORD will give strength unto his people; the LORD will bless his people with peace."
Revelation 21:8
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
Amen, brother, thank you. Obedience is the evidence of our faith; we cannot ignore all of the Scripture on enduring and overcoming. Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13, 1 Corinthians 13:7, Hebrews 12:7, James 1:12, 1 John 2:13-14, Revelation 2:7,11,17,22, Revelation 21:7. I could list more, but just these cannot be ignored, and if we do, we are deceived.
Thanks for your reply. I understand many see this as comfort, similar to what you hear at a funeral when the preacher says Bob is with Jesus in heaven. Am I going to tell that loved one No, he is not? NO, but what is the actual truth?
Ecclesiastes 9:5, if we die, we know nothing. Psalms 115:17 I believe that if our spirit were alive in heaven, we would be praising the LORD. Our only hope of eternal life is in Jesus; this comes when we are resurrected, not before, 1 Corinthians 15:52-54.
Not to drag this out, I will say, if we all have an immortal spirit, there is no death and no true gift of eternal life because we already possess it. John 3:15, John 10:28, Romans 2:7, Romans 6:23, 1 John 2:25. This is our promise. The others receive death; they will perish, John 3:16, 2 Thessalonians 2:10, 2 Peter 2:12. The word perish is to destroy fully, permanent, absolute destruction. Revelation 21:8 their part, their punishment, and death will fit their sins, not burn for eternity.
Death is not a separation, as Greek philosophy puts it, which has influenced today's understanding.
Permit me to follow the example of Elihu and act in accordance with his statement in Job 32:21-22.
In a previous comment, you emphasized the importance of properly considering a matter before speaking, so as not to appear as "fools." I wonder if perhaps the claim that Christ will reign with the saints on earth was rebutted too quickly, without sufficient consideration.
The 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 14:2-3 are described as the firstfruits of those saved in Israel after the rapture, as verse 14 clarifies. However, this does not imply that Christ will not return to earth with them. They will return together with all who have inherited salvation, as seen in Revelation 21:1-3.
It is also important to note that the New Jerusalem, symbolically represented as the Bride, represents the spiritual Church or body of Christ. This is supported in Hebrews 12:22, 2 Corinthians 11:2, Ephesians 2:19-22, 1 Peter 2:5, and 1 Corinthians 3:9. Only those who have received the Spirit of Christ are considered part of the Church of Christ ( 1 Corinthians 12:13, Romans 8:9).
This Church will return to earth and reign with Christ for a thousand years, as indicated in Revelation 20:4, Revelation 12:5, and Revelation 19:15.
As Elihu said in Job 34:22: "If you have understanding, hear this; listen to the voice of my words."
Please note that my words are not intended as insults or to cause offense, for that would not reflect the love that the Lord Jesus expects from us. Rather, my intention is to encourage careful consideration of matters from a biblical perspective, rather than relying solely on worldly opinion. As the Lord Jesus said, many teach the traditions of men as doctrine, and as Paul says, we can do nothing against the truth, but only for the truth.
And of course Paul writes in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3: "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition". To assure the believers in that Church, Paul writes that the Day of Christ's appearing and our GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM, will only come after a falling away & the revelation of the Anti-Christ. After this happens, Christ appears & we are gathered (the Rapture & Resurrection of 1 Thessalonians chap 4?) unto Him. Then the Great Tribulation begins, as God's Wrath is displayed first in its infancy (the removing of His Restrainer), then with increasing suffering, culminating in Matthew 24:29,30.
Your reference to Revelation 12:12 has bearing on the whole chapter and I perceive we don't understand it the same way and it would be too long to exegete here. Then to Revelation 19:7-9, comparing with Revelation 21:9-11. I can see the connection that the Lamb's wife is the New Jerusalem as stated here, but when we read Revelation 19:7-9, we see that 'she (the New Jerusalem?) hath made herself ready; she would be arrayed in fine white linen which is the righteousness of the saints (can a city or a people be so arrayed?); and there is to be a marriage supper (with a city?)'. This can be quite confusing if one is to believe that Jesus is marrying a city. Or maybe, there are two references: of a city & the Church represented together in marriage. I can't tell. To Page 3.
What is the Rapture? It is a doctrine that began in the 1800s and is widely accepted today. The belief in it is so strong that many see it as a promise, a guarantee, that the Church will be taken to heaven and escape the great tribulation, which is often confused with the wrath of God. But is it true or just a deception? Isn't the rapture a resurrection? We see there are only two resurrections, in Revelation 20:6 and Revelation 20:12-13, separated by a thousand years.
Nowhere is the Church shown in heaven; Revelation 19:7-9 is not about the Church. It describes the bride of Christ adorned with the righteousness of the saints. The marriage and the marriage supper will not occur until Revelation 21:1-2, which takes place after the new heaven and new earth. The angel shows John the bride, the Lamb's wife, who is not the Church, as stated in Revelation 21:9-11.
We must distinguish between the great tribulation and the wrath of God; they are not the same. Tribulation refers to the suffering and persecution faced by believers. We see in Revelation 12:12, Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, for the devil has come down to you, having great wrath. This is when he gives power to the beast, and the great tribulation begins. The short time Satan believed he had was 3.5 years, not seven. Revelation 13:5 mentions 42 months, which is 1260 days, or 3.5 years. The prophecy in Daniel 9 is all about the Messiah, Jesus, and the time Israel has.
We do not see the wrath of God and the Lamb until after the sixth seal, in Revelation 6:12-17. This is when Jesus returns to earth, the earth is round, and when Jesus returns, it will be as in Mathew 24:29-31. We will then meet Him in the air, and we all come down together.
and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Revelation 20:12-13
God will judge personal sin. THE "LEFT HAND PROPLE"
The Bible is clear that individuals who practice sin will be judged. For example, there's a large laundry list of sin in Romans 1:29-31.
(29) Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,"
(30) Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,"
(31)Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:"
Paul clearly states that God will judge those who practice those things.
Romans 2:2
"But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things."
Romans 2:3
"And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Revelation 21:8
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
This portion of scripture
also gives us a list of those who practice sins and what will become of them.
Likewise, Hebrews tells us God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterers.
Hebrews 13:4
"Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge."
To top it all off, Jesus himself says the one who rejects Him will be judged.
John 12:48
"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, THE SAME SHALL JUDGE HIM IN THE LAST DAY.
I agree that the Church, the Body of Christ, is not the bride; I do not agree that the bride metaphor is rooted in prophecy and tied to Israel. The New Jerusalem is the bride that is dressed in fine linen, pure and white, for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints; Revelation 19:6-8. This is the city that Abraham looked for, Hebrews 11:8-10.
This bride, the New Jerusalem, will not descend until everything is fulfilled and all is made new. Revelation 21:1-3. Then, the marriage and the feast will mark the beginning of our eternity on the new earth with God and Jesus.
Revelation 19:7-9: Let us be glad, rejoice, and honor Him: for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb." And he saith unto me, "These are the true sayings of God."
I also disagree with the teaching of the catching away or the rapture as being carried to heaven. You mention 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, but where does it say we are taken to heaven? This passage describes Jesus returning to earth at the last trump, Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, and Revelation 19:11-16.
The Church, the Body of Christ, is distinct from the Bride of Christ-a truth revealed uniquely through the Apostle Paul under the dispensation of grace. While traditional teaching often blends Israel's prophetic promises with the Church's heavenly calling, a right division ( 2 Timothy 2:15) reveals that believers today, saved by grace through faith alone ( Ephesians 2:8-9), are part of a new creation: the Body of Christ ( 1 Corinthians 12:12-13; Romans 12:5).
Paul never refers to the Church as the "Bride of Christ." Instead, he consistently identifies the Church as a body in which Christ is the Head ( Ephesians 1:22-23; Colossians 1:18). This organism is spiritual, made up of both Jew and Gentile, reconciled into one new man ( Ephesians 2:15-16). This unity was a "mystery" kept hidden from ages past ( Colossians 1:26; Ephesians 3:1-6), never prophesied or associated with Israel's covenantal promises.
In contrast, the bride metaphor is rooted in prophecy and tied to Israel. Revelation 21:9-10 calls the New Jerusalem "the bride, the Lamb's wife," a city prepared for redeemed Israel ( Isaiah 62:4-5; Hosea 2:19-20). John the Baptist called himself a "friend of the bridegroom" ( John 3:29), which places him outside the bride. Paul, while using marriage as a metaphor in Ephesians 5, still emphasizes the Body-not a bride-saying, "We are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones" ( Ephesians 5:30). The analogy teaches love and unity, not identity.
Confusing the Bride with the Body blends Israel's earthly hope with the Church's heavenly calling ( Philippians 3:20). We are not awaiting a wedding ceremony, but rather a catching away ( 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) to appear with Christ in glory. As members of His Body, we are already spiritually one with Him ( 1 Corinthians 6:17). Understanding this distinction preserves the truth of God's separate programs for Israel and the Church.
I agree that the doctrine of the lost people burning forever in hell or the lake of fire, as you mentioned, originates from Platonism, along with the concept of the immortal soul. So, if the soul is eternal, then it will burn forever. Scripture says only the saved get the gift of eternal life, the wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23. With the verses you listed, and there are more, Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Those not found written in the book of life will have their part/portion, my understanding is that their punishment, the length of time will match their sins against God before their second death, they will perish, gone forever, not burn forever.
Nice to share with you again brother Carleton, after a long time. This matter on Hell, which has been given good treatment by brother Jesse in his work going through the NT (which you may have been following), is both interesting & can be the cause for various understandings of the subject.
In the OT, we read of Hell (Sheol) in several places (e.g. Psalm 30:3, understood as 'the grave'; or Psalm 9:17, as a place of suffering). When Jesus even spoke of it (Hades: Luke 16:22-24), it seems that there was a temporal place of suffering or lack of it before Christ's sacrifice for sins. Just a thought: the righteous from the OT (as Abraham was one & was quoted by Jesus), though Abraham's body was still in the grave, his soul/spirit was in that part of Hades. This teaching may have been something new to the people of Jesus' Day, but it establishes the fact that the spirits of all people live on & are sent to a place appointed & not just to the grave. But after the victory was won at the Cross, those OT saints were justified & redeemed (those who waited in hope of God's deliverance/Messiah for them).
As bro. Jesse pointed out, hell (the place of eternal suffering & torment) is really seen in Matthew 5:22 (Gk:"geenna"), & alluded to in Revelation 21:8. Though this hell (Gehenna) was created for the devil and his angels ( Matthew 25:41), sadly it will also be the future abode of all who have despised the LORD and His Word, rejecting His Salvation for their souls. This maybe what you're thinking of, where this Hell wasn't established at first, yet the warning of its future existence was given in the OT and in Jesus' Teaching. Thanks for your thoughts brother on this, for our mutual investigation & understanding.
Revelation 21:27 - And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
And there shall in no wise, literally a Double Negative in the Greek text. It's impossible to enter into it any thing that is defiled, neither any thing that works abomination, or lives a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Notice the two differences. The people who are saved are in the Lamb's book of life. And the people who are not saved, they are not in the Lamb's book of life. Their names were recorded in the book of life (registry of everyone who has been born), but never were they found in the Lamb's book of life!
Revelation 22:1 - And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, again, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal. Again, it's not blue but clear, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Revelation 22:2 - In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side, so you can see that this is symbolic. The tree of life is on both sides of the city street, with the street going right through the middle. So, on either side of the river, there is a tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
The word healing is THERAPUO, which is where we get our word therapeutic from. It represents that in heaven, there will be no pain, no sorrow, no sickness, but it will be a very healthy place to be.
Revelation 21:20 - The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
The fifth, sardonyx; red with white stripes.
The sixth, sardius; those are different shades of red.
The seventh, chrysolite; is yellow.
The eighth, beryl; it has shades of green, yellow, and blue mixed.
The ninth, a topaz; this is a yellow/green color.
The tenth, a chrysoprasus; this has a gold tint to it.
The eleventh, a jacinth; it is blue or violet color.
The twelfth, an amethyst. And that is purple.
Revelation 21:21 - And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
So, it's like he saw a transparency there like glass. But he saw gold coming through the streets of the city.
Revelation 21:23 - And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
So, here's the glory of God manifesting Himself throughout this transparent city that is called the bride of Christ.
Revelation 21:24 - And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Why is that? Because God did that through them. God gave them the glory and honor as leaders and kings.
Revelation 21:26 - And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Again, that's the glory of God and the work of God that's been done throughout all the nations.
Revelation 21:17 - And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
And he measured the wall thereof, and this would be its thickness, an hundred and forty and four cubits, or 72 yards wide, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. So, the angel is measuring, but it is man's measurements that are given to us.
Revelation 21:18 - And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
And the building of the wall of it was of jasper:
What's Jasper? It's the diamond. It's the clearest crystal that we just saw. And the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. How can it be gold if it's clear glass? It's because the glory of God is radiating through this crystal like, or transparent glasslike structure. And it comes out in the appearance of gold, like unto clear glass.
Revelation 21:19 - And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones.
And I'm going to share with you the colors, not that it will make any difference to you because you may already have them, but just in case some may not have them.
All manner of precious stones:
The first foundation was jasper; that would be the diamond.
The second, sapphire; that would be blue.
The third, a chalcedony; that's an agate that is blue with colored stripes.
Revelation 21:14 - And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
In Ephesians 2:20, Paul tells the Gentiles that we are now one with the Jews who believe, and that we are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone. All of these symbolically represent the works.
I think I previously mentioned that from a Jewish standpoint, that whenever you go in someone's name, it's for that person, and his characteristics. So, when it talks about the twelve foundations being the twelve apostles, all of God's work through the twelve apostles back then, and even now, we're studying from one of the twelve apostles.
All of that work, the work of God, and the people of God are going to make up this great city.
Revelation 21:16 - And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
And the city lies foursquare. Sound familiar, foursquare? Well, the problem is, and we'll see when we get through here, he's either describing a cube, or a pyramid, but not a square.
And the city lies foursquare, or four cornered. And the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs, or 12,000 STADIA'S, 607 feet per STADIA.
12,000 STADIA'S were measuring in each direction 1,380 feet. And each direction, the length and the breadth and the height are all equal.
Revelation 21:11 - Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Having the glory of God: and her light was "like unto."
Remember I told you about those little catch phrases. To him, this is like, or as, using human terms. Like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
The city New Jerusalem is the wife of the Lamb, the body of Christ. It is a city that is clear as crystal. Any colors seen in this city, it's because the glory of God, and we're told this in Chapter 11, the glory of God is in the midst of this city, and the glory of God is radiating out through this crystal-like city.
We have spiritual bodies. So, it's transparent like crystal. And so, all colors that we see are going to be like a prism. When you see light shine through crystal, it comes out in various colors. That's what he's presenting to us here.
Revelation 21:13 - On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
If you ever find time for some in depth study, what he's picturing for us is a top view looking down upon the children of Israel as they traveled through the wilderness, as the tribes camped out around the tabernacle. He's seeing the same thing in the new city Jerusalem, made up in the same way.
Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
But the fearful (DEILOS), which is the word for coward. But the coward, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers (PORNOIS) which is sexually immoral people, sorcerers, which is the word PHARMAKEA for drugs, idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Now these descriptions are not acts that people commit. These are people, a person who is a coward, a person who is an unbeliever, and whenever you find these adjectives or nouns that describe a person's lifestyle or spiritual condition, it's not what a person does, it's who a person is. They will be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.
Verses 9 through 27 gives us the description of New Jerusalem. We just studied about the vision of New Jerusalem coming down from out of heaven. But now we are given some specifics.
Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Here, it mentions the bride, the Lamb's wife. That would be the church, all believers!
Revelation 21:10 - And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
And he carried me away in spirit to a great and high mountain. Obviously, this is in the spirit realm because geographically he's still on the island of Patmos. And he showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Revelation 21:7 - He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
The term "he that overcomes," sounds like a challenge. It sounds like it would be a Subjunctive, a possibility, like if you do it. But in the Greek text, it is the one (who is) overcoming. Back in Revelation Chapters 2 and 3, the seven letters to the seven churches, at the end of each message, the same phrase is found, to the one who overcomes, he will receive a reward.
But again, it's a Present Participle. It's the one who is overcoming. All genuine born-again believers are pictured in the scriptures as overcomers. It's impossible to not overcome! In 1 John 4:4, it says the spirit of antichrist is in the world, but we have overcome them, Perfect Tense. It's already done, because greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world.
So, if Christ is always in me from the very second that I receive Christ, and He'll be there throughout eternity, then it will be impossible for me to not overcome, because He overcomes, and has overcome! So, to the one who is overcoming, he shall inherit all things. And I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Revelation 21:2 - And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
This is one of the many instances where the New Jerusalem is compared to as a bride of Christ. This one would be the bride of Christ.
Revelation 21:5 - And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
These are the words believers are to hold to, not because the bible says so, but because God says they are true, and they are faithful, and they will come to pass.
Revelation 21:6 - And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
And he said unto me, It is done. Again, the same word for it is finished.
I am Alpha and Omega. That's the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. These are phrases that are attributed to be of God, also found in Isaiah 44:6, and Isaiah 48:12. He says I am Alpha and Omega, which means, as he says, the beginning and the end of everything, and everything in between. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
By the way, these phrases, these titles that God is giving from the throne, it's also referred to Jesus in Revelation 22:13, the same phrases, making reference to His deity.
So, God says I will give the one who is thirsting from the fountain of the water of life freely. That is the word DOREAN meaning without cost.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one. Should we not consider other verses, John 17:11, John 17:20-23, John 14:28. These verses, Numbers 23:19, John 20:17, 2 Corinthians 11:31, Ephesians 1:3, Ephesians 4:4-6, and 1 Peter 1:3. Then, in Revelation 21:22-23 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
God wanted to be with His people, He first instructed Moses to build a tabernacle, which was symbolic of Jesus. Jesus was born without sin, not by man but of the seed of a woman whose Father was God. God could dwell in Him. Like the tabernacle, Jesus was holy, not defiled. Jesus became the light of the world, the Shekinah Glory manifested in Him and God again dwelt with man in the flesh of Jesus, to me that is John 1:14.
I do thank you for your reply, and I hope and pray I do not offend anyone who reads what I post; our discussions should only inspire us to study, not to win or demean, if so, we all lose.
I will stop here; I do not want to get ahead of Jesse's work in Revelation. You are always welcome to reply to me GiGi.
(We are the dwelling place of God, individually, and in the future throughout eternity, collectively, we will be the new city Jerusalem whom God will dwell in forever.)
Reminds me of Revelation 21:1-3.
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Think of a large circle being the Kingdom of God and the two small circles are Israel and the Church . Israel will have the kingdom of heaven on earth and the Church the body of Christ will have the heavenly places.
Jesus Christ is promising the Twelve Disiples the kingdom on earth and become kingdom of priests.
Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in thethroneof his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelvethrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
kingdom of priests.
The Twelve Apostles will have there new Jerusalem on earth and Jesus Christ will be there King.
Revelation 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Thanks, brother, I'm not the best at putting on paper my understanding. I know some Scriptures refer to the Holy Spirit as he, but the Spirit is the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God dwells in us, Romans 8:9, 1 Corinthians 3:16 and, more. It is the power of the Holy Spirit that does the work of God, Romans 15:19, Jesus did the miracles by the Holy Spirit, Matthew 12:28, Luke 4:18, Acts 10:38, Hebrews 2:4.
Jesus said the words He spoke were not His words but the Fathers and God did the works, this was done by the Holy Spirit through Jesus. John 14:10. Jesus said the Holy Spirit/Comforter proceedeth from the Father John 15:26, Jesus said the Holy Ghost will not speak of himself but what he is told, so the Holy Spirit is under the direction of the Father and Jesus, John 16:13.
All the salutations are from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is not in any salutations. In Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb is the temple of it. No Holy Spirit, what I see in Scripture is the Holy Spirit is the conduit that God works through and now Jesus as well.
I hope this gives you enough info to see how I see the Holy Spirit and I know that is not what many believe. I do not want to offend and I hope I don't, but this is what I see in Scripture. I do not see the Holy Spirit as a person but as the power of God that surrounds this earth by which God and Jesus dwell in us to communicate, guide, and comfort us.
But only the righteousness of the Law could be fulfilled in us - how? By holding onto the Law of sin & death? No, by those being led by God's Spirit, He Who applies the Law in a continual, greater & more perfect measure in those who belong to Christ.
And yes, God's Laws are eternal ("till the heavens & earth pass away"), but Jesus has fulfilled them for us perfectly (not just the sacrificial aspects only but what Israel & us could never keep from the Decalogue) & thus He was the only Sacrifice that could avail for us. If Jesus failed, we would fail because of the Law's demands - and there would be no hope for mankind. Why should we appeal to a Law that only revealed our sin & brought death, rather, we ought to listen & obey the Spirit of Life Who tells us daily, constantly how to obey & please the Father.
So, I understand your reference to Revelation 21:1-5, pertaining to the Law that is eternal. But do we neglect the many passages, which I've already quoted, that show us the finality of the Law & its demands at the Cross, as Jesus ushered in the New Covenant administered by the Life-giving Spirit (without the Law's weaknesses & leading men to death)?
Welcome to the site!
"What "heaven" is being referred to" should be considered
For thus saith the LORD that created the "HEAVENS"; (Plural) God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. Isaiah 45:18.
The Heavenly realm represent the celestial abode of God and angels, the ultimate reward for the righteous, a spiritual realm separate from our physical universe.
I'm not sure if that's what's being made new in Revelation 21:1. I would need convincing scriptures.
Job 1:6 reads "Now there was a day when the sons of God CAME TO PRESENT THEMSELVES before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Where did the sons of God come from to present themselves to God?
Perhaps "to and fro in the earth?
We know that's true of Satan considering verse seven.
We know very little about the Heavenly realm of God.
Blessings.
We read in Jesus's longest prayer in John 17. For the reason Jesus was sent, He says, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
There is one people of God, as stated in Ephesians 2:15-16.
Scripture does not teach that Israel and the Church are two peoples of God with two destinies. Our final destiny is Revelation 21:1-7. There is not one verse in the Bible that outright says we go or are taken to heaven. From Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21, the entire Bible is about the Plan of God and the grace of God. From the beginning of creation. Revelation 3:14 to the end, Revelation 22:12-13.
Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
The mystery is that the blessings of Abraham might come on all believers, Jew or Gentile, through Jesus Christ, Galatians 3:14. Jesus had to fulfill the covenant of the law to bring in the new covenant that was prophesied in Daniel 9:27.
The Bible has one theme, one covenant of grace, with one Church united in Christ, with Gentile salvation in view from the beginning. Jews were being saved back then, and today, in God's plan for ethnic Jews, not by giving them a separate destiny as a separate people of God, but by bringing them back to Jesus Christ through faith.
See part 2.
Psalms 29:11
"The LORD will give strength unto his people; the LORD will bless his people with peace."
Revelation 21:8
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
Blessings
Amen, brother, thank you. Obedience is the evidence of our faith; we cannot ignore all of the Scripture on enduring and overcoming. Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13, 1 Corinthians 13:7, Hebrews 12:7, James 1:12, 1 John 2:13-14, Revelation 2:7,11,17,22, Revelation 21:7. I could list more, but just these cannot be ignored, and if we do, we are deceived.
God bless,
RLW
Thanks for your reply. I understand many see this as comfort, similar to what you hear at a funeral when the preacher says Bob is with Jesus in heaven. Am I going to tell that loved one No, he is not? NO, but what is the actual truth?
Ecclesiastes 9:5, if we die, we know nothing. Psalms 115:17 I believe that if our spirit were alive in heaven, we would be praising the LORD. Our only hope of eternal life is in Jesus; this comes when we are resurrected, not before, 1 Corinthians 15:52-54.
Not to drag this out, I will say, if we all have an immortal spirit, there is no death and no true gift of eternal life because we already possess it. John 3:15, John 10:28, Romans 2:7, Romans 6:23, 1 John 2:25. This is our promise. The others receive death; they will perish, John 3:16, 2 Thessalonians 2:10, 2 Peter 2:12. The word perish is to destroy fully, permanent, absolute destruction. Revelation 21:8 their part, their punishment, and death will fit their sins, not burn for eternity.
Death is not a separation, as Greek philosophy puts it, which has influenced today's understanding.
Thanks again, brother,
God bless,
RLW
Revelation 21:1
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."
Matthew 5:3
"Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 5:5
"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth."
Blessing's
Revelation 21 gets away from me in the first two verses!
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, PREPARED AS A BRIDE adorned for her husband.
We have a new heaven and a new earth!
Ww have the holy city, new Jerusalem, prepared aa a bride for her husband!
This great holy city is the Lambs wife having the glory of God!
Revelation 21:9-11.
I don't believe there's a way to visualize that!
Everything else in this chapter is within this incomprehensible city!
Blessings
In a previous comment, you emphasized the importance of properly considering a matter before speaking, so as not to appear as "fools." I wonder if perhaps the claim that Christ will reign with the saints on earth was rebutted too quickly, without sufficient consideration.
The 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 14:2-3 are described as the firstfruits of those saved in Israel after the rapture, as verse 14 clarifies. However, this does not imply that Christ will not return to earth with them. They will return together with all who have inherited salvation, as seen in Revelation 21:1-3.
It is also important to note that the New Jerusalem, symbolically represented as the Bride, represents the spiritual Church or body of Christ. This is supported in Hebrews 12:22, 2 Corinthians 11:2, Ephesians 2:19-22, 1 Peter 2:5, and 1 Corinthians 3:9. Only those who have received the Spirit of Christ are considered part of the Church of Christ ( 1 Corinthians 12:13, Romans 8:9).
This Church will return to earth and reign with Christ for a thousand years, as indicated in Revelation 20:4, Revelation 12:5, and Revelation 19:15.
As Elihu said in Job 34:22: "If you have understanding, hear this; listen to the voice of my words."
Please note that my words are not intended as insults or to cause offense, for that would not reflect the love that the Lord Jesus expects from us. Rather, my intention is to encourage careful consideration of matters from a biblical perspective, rather than relying solely on worldly opinion. As the Lord Jesus said, many teach the traditions of men as doctrine, and as Paul says, we can do nothing against the truth, but only for the truth.
And of course Paul writes in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3: "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition". To assure the believers in that Church, Paul writes that the Day of Christ's appearing and our GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM, will only come after a falling away & the revelation of the Anti-Christ. After this happens, Christ appears & we are gathered (the Rapture & Resurrection of 1 Thessalonians chap 4?) unto Him. Then the Great Tribulation begins, as God's Wrath is displayed first in its infancy (the removing of His Restrainer), then with increasing suffering, culminating in Matthew 24:29,30.
Your reference to Revelation 12:12 has bearing on the whole chapter and I perceive we don't understand it the same way and it would be too long to exegete here. Then to Revelation 19:7-9, comparing with Revelation 21:9-11. I can see the connection that the Lamb's wife is the New Jerusalem as stated here, but when we read Revelation 19:7-9, we see that 'she (the New Jerusalem?) hath made herself ready; she would be arrayed in fine white linen which is the righteousness of the saints (can a city or a people be so arrayed?); and there is to be a marriage supper (with a city?)'. This can be quite confusing if one is to believe that Jesus is marrying a city. Or maybe, there are two references: of a city & the Church represented together in marriage. I can't tell. To Page 3.
What is the Rapture? It is a doctrine that began in the 1800s and is widely accepted today. The belief in it is so strong that many see it as a promise, a guarantee, that the Church will be taken to heaven and escape the great tribulation, which is often confused with the wrath of God. But is it true or just a deception? Isn't the rapture a resurrection? We see there are only two resurrections, in Revelation 20:6 and Revelation 20:12-13, separated by a thousand years.
Nowhere is the Church shown in heaven; Revelation 19:7-9 is not about the Church. It describes the bride of Christ adorned with the righteousness of the saints. The marriage and the marriage supper will not occur until Revelation 21:1-2, which takes place after the new heaven and new earth. The angel shows John the bride, the Lamb's wife, who is not the Church, as stated in Revelation 21:9-11.
We must distinguish between the great tribulation and the wrath of God; they are not the same. Tribulation refers to the suffering and persecution faced by believers. We see in Revelation 12:12, Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, for the devil has come down to you, having great wrath. This is when he gives power to the beast, and the great tribulation begins. The short time Satan believed he had was 3.5 years, not seven. Revelation 13:5 mentions 42 months, which is 1260 days, or 3.5 years. The prophecy in Daniel 9 is all about the Messiah, Jesus, and the time Israel has.
We do not see the wrath of God and the Lamb until after the sixth seal, in Revelation 6:12-17. This is when Jesus returns to earth, the earth is round, and when Jesus returns, it will be as in Mathew 24:29-31. We will then meet Him in the air, and we all come down together.
God bless,
RLW
My question in regard to verse
Revelation 20:12
How many books were opened?
Where is the reference to sins we have committed?
and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Revelation 20:12-13
God will judge personal sin. THE "LEFT HAND PROPLE"
The Bible is clear that individuals who practice sin will be judged. For example, there's a large laundry list of sin in Romans 1:29-31.
(29) Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,"
(30) Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,"
(31)Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:"
Paul clearly states that God will judge those who practice those things.
Romans 2:2
"But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things."
Romans 2:3
"And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Revelation 21:8
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
This portion of scripture
also gives us a list of those who practice sins and what will become of them.
Likewise, Hebrews tells us God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterers.
Hebrews 13:4
"Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge."
To top it all off, Jesus himself says the one who rejects Him will be judged.
John 12:48
"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, THE SAME SHALL JUDGE HIM IN THE LAST DAY.
So the conclusion is unavoidable-God is Good
I agree that the Church, the Body of Christ, is not the bride; I do not agree that the bride metaphor is rooted in prophecy and tied to Israel. The New Jerusalem is the bride that is dressed in fine linen, pure and white, for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints; Revelation 19:6-8. This is the city that Abraham looked for, Hebrews 11:8-10.
This bride, the New Jerusalem, will not descend until everything is fulfilled and all is made new. Revelation 21:1-3. Then, the marriage and the feast will mark the beginning of our eternity on the new earth with God and Jesus.
Revelation 19:7-9: Let us be glad, rejoice, and honor Him: for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb." And he saith unto me, "These are the true sayings of God."
I also disagree with the teaching of the catching away or the rapture as being carried to heaven. You mention 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, but where does it say we are taken to heaven? This passage describes Jesus returning to earth at the last trump, Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, and Revelation 19:11-16.
God bless,
RLW
Any thoughts?
Right Division ( 2 Timothy 2:15)
The Church, the Body of Christ, is distinct from the Bride of Christ-a truth revealed uniquely through the Apostle Paul under the dispensation of grace. While traditional teaching often blends Israel's prophetic promises with the Church's heavenly calling, a right division ( 2 Timothy 2:15) reveals that believers today, saved by grace through faith alone ( Ephesians 2:8-9), are part of a new creation: the Body of Christ ( 1 Corinthians 12:12-13; Romans 12:5).
Paul never refers to the Church as the "Bride of Christ." Instead, he consistently identifies the Church as a body in which Christ is the Head ( Ephesians 1:22-23; Colossians 1:18). This organism is spiritual, made up of both Jew and Gentile, reconciled into one new man ( Ephesians 2:15-16). This unity was a "mystery" kept hidden from ages past ( Colossians 1:26; Ephesians 3:1-6), never prophesied or associated with Israel's covenantal promises.
In contrast, the bride metaphor is rooted in prophecy and tied to Israel. Revelation 21:9-10 calls the New Jerusalem "the bride, the Lamb's wife," a city prepared for redeemed Israel ( Isaiah 62:4-5; Hosea 2:19-20). John the Baptist called himself a "friend of the bridegroom" ( John 3:29), which places him outside the bride. Paul, while using marriage as a metaphor in Ephesians 5, still emphasizes the Body-not a bride-saying, "We are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones" ( Ephesians 5:30). The analogy teaches love and unity, not identity.
Confusing the Bride with the Body blends Israel's earthly hope with the Church's heavenly calling ( Philippians 3:20). We are not awaiting a wedding ceremony, but rather a catching away ( 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) to appear with Christ in glory. As members of His Body, we are already spiritually one with Him ( 1 Corinthians 6:17). Understanding this distinction preserves the truth of God's separate programs for Israel and the Church.
God Bless
I agree that the doctrine of the lost people burning forever in hell or the lake of fire, as you mentioned, originates from Platonism, along with the concept of the immortal soul. So, if the soul is eternal, then it will burn forever. Scripture says only the saved get the gift of eternal life, the wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23. With the verses you listed, and there are more, Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Those not found written in the book of life will have their part/portion, my understanding is that their punishment, the length of time will match their sins against God before their second death, they will perish, gone forever, not burn forever.
God bless,
RLW
In the OT, we read of Hell (Sheol) in several places (e.g. Psalm 30:3, understood as 'the grave'; or Psalm 9:17, as a place of suffering). When Jesus even spoke of it (Hades: Luke 16:22-24), it seems that there was a temporal place of suffering or lack of it before Christ's sacrifice for sins. Just a thought: the righteous from the OT (as Abraham was one & was quoted by Jesus), though Abraham's body was still in the grave, his soul/spirit was in that part of Hades. This teaching may have been something new to the people of Jesus' Day, but it establishes the fact that the spirits of all people live on & are sent to a place appointed & not just to the grave. But after the victory was won at the Cross, those OT saints were justified & redeemed (those who waited in hope of God's deliverance/Messiah for them).
As bro. Jesse pointed out, hell (the place of eternal suffering & torment) is really seen in Matthew 5:22 (Gk:"geenna"), & alluded to in Revelation 21:8. Though this hell (Gehenna) was created for the devil and his angels ( Matthew 25:41), sadly it will also be the future abode of all who have despised the LORD and His Word, rejecting His Salvation for their souls. This maybe what you're thinking of, where this Hell wasn't established at first, yet the warning of its future existence was given in the OT and in Jesus' Teaching. Thanks for your thoughts brother on this, for our mutual investigation & understanding.
Revelation 21:27 - And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
And there shall in no wise, literally a Double Negative in the Greek text. It's impossible to enter into it any thing that is defiled, neither any thing that works abomination, or lives a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Notice the two differences. The people who are saved are in the Lamb's book of life. And the people who are not saved, they are not in the Lamb's book of life. Their names were recorded in the book of life (registry of everyone who has been born), but never were they found in the Lamb's book of life!
Revelation 22:1 - And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, again, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal. Again, it's not blue but clear, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Revelation 22:2 - In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side, so you can see that this is symbolic. The tree of life is on both sides of the city street, with the street going right through the middle. So, on either side of the river, there is a tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
The word healing is THERAPUO, which is where we get our word therapeutic from. It represents that in heaven, there will be no pain, no sorrow, no sickness, but it will be a very healthy place to be.
Revelation 21:20 - The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
The fifth, sardonyx; red with white stripes.
The sixth, sardius; those are different shades of red.
The seventh, chrysolite; is yellow.
The eighth, beryl; it has shades of green, yellow, and blue mixed.
The ninth, a topaz; this is a yellow/green color.
The tenth, a chrysoprasus; this has a gold tint to it.
The eleventh, a jacinth; it is blue or violet color.
The twelfth, an amethyst. And that is purple.
Revelation 21:21 - And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
So, it's like he saw a transparency there like glass. But he saw gold coming through the streets of the city.
Revelation 21:23 - And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
So, here's the glory of God manifesting Himself throughout this transparent city that is called the bride of Christ.
Revelation 21:24 - And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Why is that? Because God did that through them. God gave them the glory and honor as leaders and kings.
Revelation 21:26 - And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Again, that's the glory of God and the work of God that's been done throughout all the nations.
Revelation 21:17 - And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
And he measured the wall thereof, and this would be its thickness, an hundred and forty and four cubits, or 72 yards wide, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. So, the angel is measuring, but it is man's measurements that are given to us.
Revelation 21:18 - And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
And the building of the wall of it was of jasper:
What's Jasper? It's the diamond. It's the clearest crystal that we just saw. And the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. How can it be gold if it's clear glass? It's because the glory of God is radiating through this crystal like, or transparent glasslike structure. And it comes out in the appearance of gold, like unto clear glass.
Revelation 21:19 - And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones.
And I'm going to share with you the colors, not that it will make any difference to you because you may already have them, but just in case some may not have them.
All manner of precious stones:
The first foundation was jasper; that would be the diamond.
The second, sapphire; that would be blue.
The third, a chalcedony; that's an agate that is blue with colored stripes.
The fourth, an emerald; this is bright green.
Revelation 21:14 - And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
In Ephesians 2:20, Paul tells the Gentiles that we are now one with the Jews who believe, and that we are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone. All of these symbolically represent the works.
I think I previously mentioned that from a Jewish standpoint, that whenever you go in someone's name, it's for that person, and his characteristics. So, when it talks about the twelve foundations being the twelve apostles, all of God's work through the twelve apostles back then, and even now, we're studying from one of the twelve apostles.
All of that work, the work of God, and the people of God are going to make up this great city.
Revelation 21:16 - And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
And the city lies foursquare. Sound familiar, foursquare? Well, the problem is, and we'll see when we get through here, he's either describing a cube, or a pyramid, but not a square.
And the city lies foursquare, or four cornered. And the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs, or 12,000 STADIA'S, 607 feet per STADIA.
12,000 STADIA'S were measuring in each direction 1,380 feet. And each direction, the length and the breadth and the height are all equal.
Revelation 21:11 - Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Having the glory of God: and her light was "like unto."
Remember I told you about those little catch phrases. To him, this is like, or as, using human terms. Like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
The city New Jerusalem is the wife of the Lamb, the body of Christ. It is a city that is clear as crystal. Any colors seen in this city, it's because the glory of God, and we're told this in Chapter 11, the glory of God is in the midst of this city, and the glory of God is radiating out through this crystal-like city.
We have spiritual bodies. So, it's transparent like crystal. And so, all colors that we see are going to be like a prism. When you see light shine through crystal, it comes out in various colors. That's what he's presenting to us here.
Revelation 21:13 - On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
If you ever find time for some in depth study, what he's picturing for us is a top view looking down upon the children of Israel as they traveled through the wilderness, as the tribes camped out around the tabernacle. He's seeing the same thing in the new city Jerusalem, made up in the same way.
Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
But the fearful (DEILOS), which is the word for coward. But the coward, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers (PORNOIS) which is sexually immoral people, sorcerers, which is the word PHARMAKEA for drugs, idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Now these descriptions are not acts that people commit. These are people, a person who is a coward, a person who is an unbeliever, and whenever you find these adjectives or nouns that describe a person's lifestyle or spiritual condition, it's not what a person does, it's who a person is. They will be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.
Verses 9 through 27 gives us the description of New Jerusalem. We just studied about the vision of New Jerusalem coming down from out of heaven. But now we are given some specifics.
Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Here, it mentions the bride, the Lamb's wife. That would be the church, all believers!
Revelation 21:10 - And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
And he carried me away in spirit to a great and high mountain. Obviously, this is in the spirit realm because geographically he's still on the island of Patmos. And he showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Revelation 21:7 - He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
The term "he that overcomes," sounds like a challenge. It sounds like it would be a Subjunctive, a possibility, like if you do it. But in the Greek text, it is the one (who is) overcoming. Back in Revelation Chapters 2 and 3, the seven letters to the seven churches, at the end of each message, the same phrase is found, to the one who overcomes, he will receive a reward.
But again, it's a Present Participle. It's the one who is overcoming. All genuine born-again believers are pictured in the scriptures as overcomers. It's impossible to not overcome! In 1 John 4:4, it says the spirit of antichrist is in the world, but we have overcome them, Perfect Tense. It's already done, because greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world.
So, if Christ is always in me from the very second that I receive Christ, and He'll be there throughout eternity, then it will be impossible for me to not overcome, because He overcomes, and has overcome! So, to the one who is overcoming, he shall inherit all things. And I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Revelation 21:2 - And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
This is one of the many instances where the New Jerusalem is compared to as a bride of Christ. This one would be the bride of Christ.
Revelation 21:5 - And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
These are the words believers are to hold to, not because the bible says so, but because God says they are true, and they are faithful, and they will come to pass.
Revelation 21:6 - And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
And he said unto me, It is done. Again, the same word for it is finished.
I am Alpha and Omega. That's the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. These are phrases that are attributed to be of God, also found in Isaiah 44:6, and Isaiah 48:12. He says I am Alpha and Omega, which means, as he says, the beginning and the end of everything, and everything in between. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
By the way, these phrases, these titles that God is giving from the throne, it's also referred to Jesus in Revelation 22:13, the same phrases, making reference to His deity.
So, God says I will give the one who is thirsting from the fountain of the water of life freely. That is the word DOREAN meaning without cost.
Revelation 21:1-8
Revelation 21:1-8
John 10:30 I and my Father are one. Should we not consider other verses, John 17:11, John 17:20-23, John 14:28. These verses, Numbers 23:19, John 20:17, 2 Corinthians 11:31, Ephesians 1:3, Ephesians 4:4-6, and 1 Peter 1:3. Then, in Revelation 21:22-23 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
God wanted to be with His people, He first instructed Moses to build a tabernacle, which was symbolic of Jesus. Jesus was born without sin, not by man but of the seed of a woman whose Father was God. God could dwell in Him. Like the tabernacle, Jesus was holy, not defiled. Jesus became the light of the world, the Shekinah Glory manifested in Him and God again dwelt with man in the flesh of Jesus, to me that is John 1:14.
I do thank you for your reply, and I hope and pray I do not offend anyone who reads what I post; our discussions should only inspire us to study, not to win or demean, if so, we all lose.
I will stop here; I do not want to get ahead of Jesse's work in Revelation. You are always welcome to reply to me GiGi.
God bless,
RLW
(We are the dwelling place of God, individually, and in the future throughout eternity, collectively, we will be the new city Jerusalem whom God will dwell in forever.)
Reminds me of Revelation 21:1-3.
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Blessings
What in the world is the Kingdom of God ? ?
Think of a large circle being the Kingdom of God and the two small circles are Israel and the Church . Israel will have the kingdom of heaven on earth and the Church the body of Christ will have the heavenly places.
Jesus Christ is promising the Twelve Disiples the kingdom on earth and become kingdom of priests.
Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in thethroneof his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelvethrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
kingdom of priests.
The Twelve Apostles will have there new Jerusalem on earth and Jesus Christ will be there King.
Revelation 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Thanks, brother, I'm not the best at putting on paper my understanding. I know some Scriptures refer to the Holy Spirit as he, but the Spirit is the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God dwells in us, Romans 8:9, 1 Corinthians 3:16 and, more. It is the power of the Holy Spirit that does the work of God, Romans 15:19, Jesus did the miracles by the Holy Spirit, Matthew 12:28, Luke 4:18, Acts 10:38, Hebrews 2:4.
Jesus said the words He spoke were not His words but the Fathers and God did the works, this was done by the Holy Spirit through Jesus. John 14:10. Jesus said the Holy Spirit/Comforter proceedeth from the Father John 15:26, Jesus said the Holy Ghost will not speak of himself but what he is told, so the Holy Spirit is under the direction of the Father and Jesus, John 16:13.
All the salutations are from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is not in any salutations. In Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb is the temple of it. No Holy Spirit, what I see in Scripture is the Holy Spirit is the conduit that God works through and now Jesus as well.
I hope this gives you enough info to see how I see the Holy Spirit and I know that is not what many believe. I do not want to offend and I hope I don't, but this is what I see in Scripture. I do not see the Holy Spirit as a person but as the power of God that surrounds this earth by which God and Jesus dwell in us to communicate, guide, and comfort us.
God bless,
RLW
But only the righteousness of the Law could be fulfilled in us - how? By holding onto the Law of sin & death? No, by those being led by God's Spirit, He Who applies the Law in a continual, greater & more perfect measure in those who belong to Christ.
And yes, God's Laws are eternal ("till the heavens & earth pass away"), but Jesus has fulfilled them for us perfectly (not just the sacrificial aspects only but what Israel & us could never keep from the Decalogue) & thus He was the only Sacrifice that could avail for us. If Jesus failed, we would fail because of the Law's demands - and there would be no hope for mankind. Why should we appeal to a Law that only revealed our sin & brought death, rather, we ought to listen & obey the Spirit of Life Who tells us daily, constantly how to obey & please the Father.
So, I understand your reference to Revelation 21:1-5, pertaining to the Law that is eternal. But do we neglect the many passages, which I've already quoted, that show us the finality of the Law & its demands at the Cross, as Jesus ushered in the New Covenant administered by the Life-giving Spirit (without the Law's weaknesses & leading men to death)?