Discuss Revelation 21 Page 16

Jesse, I realize that the Lord will gather the Children of Israel upon his return. The children of Israel are a people who have been scattered throughout the four corners of the earth. Scattered and not people who migrated. They are a people who were led away captive. (Referencing Deuteronomy 28 the curses). So I get that. But keep in mind upon his return he will give natural born Israelites their spiritual bodies as well as other nations who were are found worthy will receive their spiritual bodies.

"The Church" applies to everyone who will be grafted into the God Family natural born and spiritual.

He is only making "one" more return to earth and when he does, "everyone" will see him. It will not be secret. As he is descending, the dead in Christ will rise first, and those humans who are alive upon his return will get their change and meet him in the clouds, then they will all return right back to the earth. As he has stated he is returning to rule on earth 1,000 years. Spirit beings and mortal beings living together during the thousand years.

But Jesus will be teaching the children of Israel in the Wilderness for 3 and a half years when he returns. No scriptures support a 7 year tribulation. It's 3 1/2 years no matter where you read the Book.

The last 3 1/2 years the Lord will finish his ministry and teach Israel in the Wilderness. Perhaps that's where people get confused. But the actual tribulation will begin as soon as the man of sin moves from Rome and sits in the Third Temple which will be built in Jerusalem soon. When the Abomination of Desolation moves into the temple, the 3 and a half year tribulation will begin.

This only allows for so many characters. I will have to continue.

Part 2:

The Jews will be kept safe from harm during the last 3-1/2 years of the Tribulation Period, known as The Great Tribulation. They are told that when they see the abomination of desolation setting up in their temple, to flee. This will be at the mid-point of the 7-year period. No harm will come to them. The church will not be on the earth at this time. The ones who are told to flee are the Jews. God knows that at this time, there are 144,000 Jews who are sealed by God and He is going to protect them. Many believe that they will flee into the Rock City of Petra.

I see nothing in scripture that tells me that the church will be here or what role the church will have during this 7-year tribulation period. I read about the events of the Tribulation from Revelation Chapter 4 through Chapter 19, and not one place in those chapters is the church mentioned. After Revelation Chapter 3, there is no mention of the church. But when I get to Chapter 19, it seems to me that in Chapter 19 of Revelation, the church is in heaven at a wedding that is taking place while the tribulation is still happening on the earth and before Christ comes back at His second coming. Who are these people at this wedding? Who's getting married? Who are the ones in Chapter 19 who are clothed in white, the garments of a bride? Whoever they are, they will be the ones coming back with Christ at His second coming. I believe it is the church. At least, this is what I see. Please share your thoughts on this.

Naya,

The people mentioned in Matthew 24:29 to the end of the chapter that Christ is going to gather are Jews, not the church. The word "Tribes" in Verse 30 is very important. That tells us that we are talking about Jewish people. It is a Jewish term. All the tribes of the earth shall mourn. And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. All the tribes! Again, that would be Jews.

In Revelation Chapter 1 Verse 7, it tells us that every eye will see Him, even those who have pierced Him. Zechariah 12:10 is a prophecy that the Jews hold to, only they don't understand its application. It says that when Messiah comes, they will look upon Him whom they have pierced.

So at this time when Christ comes, at His second coming, the Jews who are left on the earth, they are going to mourn, and they are going to look and go "Oh no, we crucified our Messiah, and here He is!" The Jews are going to recognize Him.

Verse 31 also uses a keyword, and that is the word "elect." It tells us that when Christ does come, He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet. I'll share some technical information with you to show you how good this passage really is:

He is going to send His angels out with a great sound of a Shofar. It's a ram's horn. In the Greek text, the word "sound" is in brackets, which means it has been added to the text by some unseen person who doesn't understand the fact that the word "great" modifies the trumpet. It is called a great Shofar.

The prophecy is in Isaiah Chapter 27 Verses 12 and 13. It says the great Shofar will blow, and the Lord will gather His people (The Jews) from the four corners of the earth. So that is very important because that's also a prophecy that the Jews looked for. It says He is going to gather them together, His elect, that would be the Jews, from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other, north, south, east, and west.

Running out of space, I will send a Part 2:

It is very clear that Revelation 21 takes place after Jesus' 1,000 year reign on earth with man.

Revelation 21 is the Father God bringing the New Jerusalem from heaven to place it on earth.

At this time there will be nothing left but spirit beings. Those who were tossed in the lake of fire, and those found worthy to dwell in the Kingdom.

Every single event regarding humans will take place on earth. When the Great Tribulation starts, we will be on earth. The only place of safety will be The Wilderness, which the Lord will prepare for those found worthy.

Tribulation will be 3 and a half years. Matthew 24:29 immediately after the tribulation is when the Lord will return to gather his people.

Revelation 22:20

Thank you for your replies. I pray Jesus takes us before long.God bless all.

Linda,

From what I understand, the Lord will will come for His church before the tribulation period, and we will be with Him in heaven while those people on this earth who have rejected Him will go through a judgment period that very few will survive.

When did Jesus say the dead in Christ would be resurrected?

John 6:39-40: Jesus said, "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up ON THE LAST DAY.

John 6:44: Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up ON THE LAST DAY."

Is the LAST DAY the thousand year reign of Christ?

I believe so....then it is eternity and time is counted no more

So if Jesus himself said the dead in Christ will be raised on the LAST DAY, and Paul said we who are alive and remain will not be caught up (raptured) until AFTER the dead are raised, then where does secret pre-trib rapture fit in?

Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:52 - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

We are changed at the LAST TRUMP and where is this found?

In REVELATION, the LAST BOOK of the Bible there are 7 trumps and the 7th trump is the LAST ONE and is at the end of the tribulation. there is not a 7th last trump prior to the tribulation.

Sometimes in today's world I become afraid that I won't be able to make it through the ugliness . Is the tribulation happening now? Will Christians have to endure the first 3 1/2 years or is Jesus coming before or after ?

My youth just completed a small scaled replica of New Jerusalem according the the size in Revelations teaching. With comparison to the US, it is about 1/2 the size of America. 1500 linear miles in any direction. That's just the city, it will sat down upon the new earth where habitats of the saints will have freedom to roam and live forever.

Warren my guess is:

2 Peter Chapter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

2 Thessalonians Chapter 1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. satanism is considered sorcery.

God's original desire is to dwell eternally with man sin was an aberration, christ was the cure

God's desire was restored cos

JESUS was Emmanuel God made flesh and now He dwell with us forever Amen.

LGSpears, as with you, I find this subject fascinating & even though measurements are given in Rev 21, we have to assume that with our limited knowledge with how measurements were actually derived in those days, some errors will be there. For example, 1 (US) Furlong = 660 ft. So using 582 ft as you have done, isn't a great deviation from whatever was originally considered, however it does remind us that are musings over these facts can only at best be speculative, even to the actual construction dimensions of the city.

However, I do see the measurements given are for the New Jerusalem & not the New Heaven. You might be seeing this as one & the same but I understand that the "first heaven & the first earth" as applying to the present earth & sky (which may include objects found in inner or deep space), & not to the place of God's Abode.

Re: the dimensions of the city. Agreed, that length, breadth & height are equal, but I seem to read in v 16, that only measurement of one of the equal sides was taken (i.e. 12,000 furlongs = 1,500 miles). If this is the case, then we have 144,000 sq furlongs = 18,000 sq miles of land area & not including the 1,500 miles of vertical measurement of one side. Or is this a misunderstanding on my part? I won't even try to contemplate what the wall would appear like as a result!

And another interesting feature in all this, which you no doubt would have observed, is the use of the figure '12' as the cardinal number seen in Revelation (e.g. 7:4-8; 12:1; 14:1,3; 21; 22:2) as well as its appearance in other Scriptures (e.g. 12 disciples, etc.). How does this all figure out in God's Design & Plan?

I greatly appreciate the thoughtful reply by Chris regarding the size of our New Heaven. I have looked more carefully at Rev. 21: vs 12, 16 & 17 & conclude the following: Vs. 12 plainly states, "And (the new heaven) had a wall GREAT and HIGH ----"; Vs. 16 last part says "The Length and the Breadth AND the Height of it are Equal;" then going to the first part it says "And the city lieth foursquare and thus the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, 12,000 furlongs (one furlong = 582 ft.).

SO, Vs. 12 says the New Heaven would have both a great & high wall + Vs. 16 says the lg., breadth (width) & ht. of the walls are equal. These two statements rule out using the 144 cubit (210 ft.) measure for the height of the wall but instead limit it to the thickness; which does make sense because during this time period city walls where described by their heigth & thickness + their composition (for this wall it is jasper).

Now one has to both read & think carefully. The first of Vs. 16 says the city is foursquare ( laid out in a square) with length = breadth/width and he measured the city with a reed and it was 12,000 furlongs. Now the question here is, what is 12,000 furlongs describing? One missing piece of info now is the perimeter around the city, which is provided by the stated 12,000 furlong measurement. Since the city is a square each wall must be 3,000 furlongs in lg. Then from the last portion of Vs. 16, we can conclude that since the lg., breadth and ht. are equal, that the ht. of the walls are also 3,000 furlongs or 1,746,000 feet or 331 miles.

The above generates 2 interesting questions about the walls. The obvious first question is, why are the walls so high? How can a wall be that high and only 210 ft. thick, especially when you consider that it is made mainly of "jasper"(jasper is a brittle stone used for decrative objects).

The above indicates that heaven should cover about 141,000 sq. miles or about 1/2 of Texas.

It's always an interesting exercise when considering future events & places & the one you are sharing is one of them.

Firstly, the New Jerusalem will be on the New Earth, i.e. not in Heaven. With the dimensions given of the city, it appears to sit in a cube, though one can rightly assume that the height of it probably means to the point where the clouds/atmosphere ends. The walls at 144 cubits (1 cubit = 1.5 ft) makes them 216 ft (again, probably height since the necessity for walls of that thickness seem unnecessary). Your further details of population density was interesting: I had never considered this to that extent. Though, our whole being (i.e. as those outfitted for Heavenly life) & therefore the necessity for shopping malls, beaches, etc. seem unnatural since we will be in the presence of Almighty God (v3), enjoying Him & His Son in continual praise & worship & thus we would pursue a lifestyle akin to what had in Heaven.

What did pique my interest was vv 26,27. "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." I just can't work out why the reference to sinners in a New Earth since all evil has been locked away by this time. Or, is it just to show the purity & holiness of the Earth & Jerusalem, that nothing evil could ever hope to come into it (i.e. if evil existed). And who are the nations? Any thoughts?

In v.16 it says the lg., breadth & ht. of heaven are =. Is the ht. a mistake? In v.17 it says the wall is 144 cubits, is this thick. or ht or both since a wall has both & I suppose we assume it goes around heaven. Is 12,000 fur. the total dist. around the wall; if so, then heaven has about 141,000 sq. mi. of land which is about 1/2 the size of Texas & if 1/2 the land is used for housing & everyone in heaven lived in 2000 sq.ft. houses/ 5 persons per house on lots of 3,000 sq.f.t each, then heaven could house about 33,000,000 people. This would free up the remaining 1/2 of land for churches, golf courses, beaches, parks, nature trails & shopping malls--almost forgot ,& football stadiums.

Jesse I suspect you do not understand the difference between judgment of the Church, the wrath of satan and the wrath of God. Please allow me to explain.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth (angry) with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

If anyone chooses to disbelieve that the woman here is the bride of Christ, that is on them. well if there is show me from the scriptures please I want to know.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all ONE one in Christ Jesus.

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

There is only one bride, there is not a Jewish bride and another Christian Gentile brideS

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth (angry) with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Getting killed for Christ is not the wrath of God, otherwise Stephen, the prophets and the apostles who were killed suffered the wrath of God which is ridiculous.

Noah was saved in the flood, Daniel was saved in the Lion's den, the 3 Hebrew children were saved in the furnace.

God's wrath is poured out upon the wicked world, just like the plagues of Egypt. God's children did not suffer the plagues of Egypt and neither will his children in the tribulation who survive the wrath of the Satan.

You should do a little history on the fate of the millions of Christians murdered in Communist Russia under Stalin.

All we hear about is the 6 million.

DWL, Rev 21:8 does indeed speak of such sinners being deserving of the second death. But these are not Christians, washed in Christ's Blood & forgiven from the old carnal life of sin & disobedience, but speaks of those who are without Christ & have lived carelessly given wholly over to a life of unabated sin.

Does this new position we have in Christ give us licence to behave as those in verse 8? Rom 6:1,2: "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" It is impossible for a Spirit-filled person to pursue such a lifestyle, or else if he so chooses to do, he would need to examine him/herself & get back to the foot of the Cross. And yes, it is possible (indeed, probable), that a Christian will trip up & commit sin, as we still exist in this body of sin & thus continue to be an open gateway for Satan to tempt us. But our response & recourse is instantaneous & sure, as we seek forgiveness & resolve in His Strength to avoid sin's pull & our grieving the Lord.

(I believe we all lie and some of us fall under the other things listed. So, because we all lie, doesn't that mean we are all going to experience the first or second death?)

So that says you don't believe! No one has authority to take from or add to --

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and ALL liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The Holy Spirit is our Teacher. He's the revealer of scripture to our hearts and minds. He will not give 'meat' to a lambs (baby Christians.)

Have you heard the words of the sword and the spirit? The Holy Spirit teaches us how to defeat Satan & his demons, in the spirit realm. Must have the armor of God on, to do spiritual warfare. Also, prayer and fasting: Daniel 10:2-3

How many of you know well that it is harder to fight an invisible enemy? That's why we build ourselves up on the Word of God.

There are no new revelations -- If someone says they received a new revelation they are saying Jesus was wrong? John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is FINISHED: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit ALL things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. --- How can someone have a greater reward if I inherit ALL things?

judas iscariot went to hell read your bible, jesus called him a devil yet he performed

many miracles preached the gospel, yet went to hell. acts 1-18, luke 6-16,john6-70

In Romans chapters 5 and 6, 1st Corinthians 15 and then in 2nd Corinthians chapter 5, among other passages, we can see that our old sinful nature will be done away with and that we will fully experience our new nature as the born again in Jesus Christ. This new nature (Christ in us) is sinless, free of corruption. We being crucified with Christ have all our sins forgiven, nailed to the cross. Romans chapters 7 and 8 detail the struggle between our old nature and our new nature; we can and still do commit sin on occasion. The victory is in Christ Jesus. The second death has power over those who have rejected Jesus Christ and remain in their unforgiven sins.

In regards to "dust you are and to dust you shall return, ( Gen 3:19)" the Bible is talking about physical death. It isn't referencing spiritual death. We can see through passages like Psalm 30:3, Psalm 55:15, or even more direct verses like Revelation 21:8, Mathew 25:46, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, that there is a spiritual second death where people are sent down to the realm of the dead. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God ( Rom 3:23), the gospel news is that sin was defeated through the death of Christ on the cross which reconciles that he both a loving God, and a HOLY God. If the sin's punishment (eternal separation from God) did not exist, then God could not be called Holy.

This scripture is miss used as much or more than any other in the bible. ( Luke 6:37)

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters



1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.



Ephesians 5:5 For this ye (know), that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Revelation 21:8 and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. I believe we all lie and some of us fall under the other things listed. So, because we all lie, doesn't that mean we are all going to experience the first or second death?

I can't wait to be in this paradise. I can't imagine the love, the powerful bonds. Words probably can't adequately describe it.

Matthew 15:24 But he (Jesus) answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Amos 3:2 You (Israel) only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Just curious where the 13th gentile gate is to new Jerusalem?