King James Bible
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Revelation 14:12
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."
Blessings
I wish you Grace and Peace, as well.
Thanks for your reply.
I am familiar with the economy aspect you spoke of in this post. The OT (testament meaning covenant) of Law and the NT of grace and faith in the Messiah and Savior Jesus. I think this is a proper division of Scripture even though grace has been the way to salvation from the beginning with Adam and Eve onward that is embraced by faith in the coming promised Savior/Messiah
I hope you can make time to post here at times but understand how life gets busy and so this may not be the place for you to spend a lot of your time involvement. I was wondering if you would come back here. And I am glad you are still with us in heart and spirit if not in conversation. I am keeping you in prayer and will continue to do so.
I think I have to make a correction to my last post because I think it may have led to a wrong understanding. What we call here "economy of grace" is not really the same as dispensation of grace. We simply divide history into two periods, the period of the OT which we also call it the "economy of the law" and NT which we also call it "the economy of grace". Some teach that this period of grace ends with the rapture of the church. They mean that many things after the rapture will not be the same as before. Since the Spirit goes with the church there will be no new birth, no Spirit baptism, no spiritual gifts, not a Spirit-led church. Believers will also have to be willing to deny the mark of the beast and die for Christ. So a new period will start which will not be the same as before. But grace, as the Blood of Christ, will be still available to people. As I said dispensationalism is not something we talk about here.
I am also glad to hear from you. I am on and off this site the past few months. To be honest I will try not to be on so often, because it takes me a long time to read and answer the posts and I have so many things (and problems) to do lately.
Dispensationalism is not something we talk about in my church, although some of us use those terms. And they say (those of us) that the dispensation of grace (or "economy of grace" as it is the term in my language) will end with the rapture of the church (pre-tribulation rupture). To be honest I don't realy know what is the exact truth. I read in Rev 7:14, "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.". So it seems that even in that 7 year period the Blood of Jesus will be still available to any who asks for it, for the remission of sins. So grace will be still present at that time. And how could it not be. Only the Blood of Jesus saves. Even in the OT the jews were saved by His Blood although they never knew and asked for Him. That is why they were placed by God, not in heaven but in the bosom of Abraham in Hades. And after Jesus was resurrected from the dead he brought them from down there to heaven under the altar, meaning under His sacrifice ( Rev 6:9).
Anyway we keep learning, aren't we. So we will talk again later. GBU
Gal 3:29, "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
Heirs of what? Of the kingdom of Heaven.
Gal 4:28-31, "28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free."
The children of promise are the church.
Israel is now considered the spiritual Israel which includes both Jews and gentiles who believe in Christ. Both are the Bride of Jesus. There is no other bride, there is no other Kingdom. On this earth there will be the 1000 year kingdom of Christ where both the saved jews and gentiles will reign together with Him. The church has inherited all the promises given by God to Israel. The only promise to israel (in flesh) left is that they will be saved when they will ask for Jesus during the tribulation by antichrist at the end.
Rev 20:4, "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
Those beheaded mentioned above are not only Jews, are they?
Finally that "rightly dividing the word of God" simply means to put doctrines in their right place and order.
This is how as I see it.
GBU
1. Paul is calling the gospel (meaning good news) as "his gospel" should be seen as "the good news he was bringing to gentiles" and not as a different gospel of his.
So lets see what Paul was teaching to the Jews abroad. Acts 21:21, "And they (the Jews in Jerusalem) are informed of thee, that thou (Paul) teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs."
2. Lets see what Peter preached on Pentecost. Acts 2:38, "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
So where do you read about the restoration of Israel? Peter's message is the basis of the christian belief. One has to believe in Christ, then to repent, then to be baptized and finally receive the Holy Spirit. This is how grace is granted to someone.
3. Who is really Israel?
Rom 2:28-29, "28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly(christian); and circumcision is that of the heart(new birth), in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
Rom 4:11-12, "11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised."
So the true Israelite has to walk on the steps of the faith of Abraham. Till Jesus' time it was the small remnant that Paul talks about in Romans. And after Christ the true Israel is the church which includes gentiles and jews.
See pt 2
Without law there is no sin .
With no sin no Grace is needed .
Grace does not break the law either it establishes it .
A few simple thoughts , I hope this helps someone.
Apostle Paul explains this well I think through out the NT as well as the other apostles.
( this is all absolutely future! And the Sabbath is still the day of worship! , it makes sense the LORD is eternal , so is his Day)
I love Psalms 67. I want to share it
with you today, praying that it comfort
your hearts and lift your spirits. God
continues to reign supreme.
Psalms 67:1 -7 KJV
1
(To the chief Musician on Neginoth, A Psalm or Song.) God be merciful unto us, and bless us; and cause his face to shine upon us; Selah.
2
That thy way may be known upon earth, thy saving health among all nations.
3
Let the people praise thee, O God; let all the people praise thee.
4
O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.
5
Let the people praise thee, O God; let all the people praise thee.
6
Then shall the earth yield her increase; and God, even our own God, shall bless us.
7
God shall bless us; and all the ends of the earth shall fear him.
Have s Bless-ed Day. Amen!
Paul's command (not a request) in 2 Timothy 2:15 - "rightly dividing the word of truth" - makes no sense if there is nothing to divide.
The Greek word translated "rightly divide" means to "cut straight" or "make a correct partition." Paul is instructing Timothy (and us) to handle God's Word carefully, recognizing distinctions God Himself has placed in it. The Bible is one unified revelation, but within it God deals with different people in different ways at different times (dispensations). For example:
Law vs. Grace: God gave Israel the Law through Moses ( Exodus 20), but through Paul He revealed salvation by grace apart from the Law ( Romans 6:14; Galatians 2:16). If we blur these, we end up mixing works with grace.
Israel vs. the Church: Israel was promised an earthly kingdom ( Jeremiah 23:5-6; Matthew 19:28), while the Body of Christ has a heavenly calling ( Ephesians 1:3; Philippians 3:20). If we confuse these, we misapply promises and commands not meant for us.
Gospel of the Kingdom vs. Gospel of Grace: (yes, there is more than one Gospel in the NT) Jesus and the 12 preached "the gospel of the kingdom" to Israel ( Matthew 4:23; Galatians 2:7-9), while Paul was given "the gospel of the grace of God" ( Acts 20:24; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Both are true, but they serve different purposes in God's plan.
So Paul's point is: don't blend everything together as if it all applies in the same way to everyone. To "rightly divide" is to discern God's progressive revelation - prophecy vs. mystery, Israel's promises vs. the Church's hope, law vs. grace. If you don't divide, you end up in contradictions and confusion.
G&P
I want to share with you why it is not only unwise but dangerous to blur the distinction between Paul's message and the twelve apostles. God gave Paul a unique dispensation of grace, revealing the "mystery" of the Body of Christ, a truth hidden until his ministry ( Ephesians 3:1-9; Colossians 1:25-27). When we blend his message with the kingdom program preached by Peter and the others, we risk corrupting the gospel of grace.
Peter preached to Israel, offering the promised kingdom upon national repentance and baptism ( Acts 2:38; 3:19). Paul preached justification by faith alone apart from works of the law ( Romans 3:28; Ephesians 2:8-9). To confuse these messages is to either add works to grace, or to remove Israel's kingdom promises. Paul warned that adding to his gospel of grace produces "another gospel" ( Galatians 1:6-9), and he pronounced a curse on anyone who preached such.
Blending also robs believers of assurance. If salvation depends partly on works, ordinances, or kingdom requirements, then we can never rest in the finished work of Christ. The beauty of Paul's message is that Christ did it all-our salvation is complete in Him ( Colossians 2:10). Mixing law and grace leaves Christians unstable, unsure if they have done enough, and strips the cross of its sufficiency.
Finally, confusion weakens the testimony of the Church. The Body of Christ is not Israel, nor is it inheriting an earthly kingdom. Our hope is heavenly ( Philippians 3:20-21; Colossians 3:1-4). When we preach Israel's program as our own, we not only deny our identity but also cloud Israel's future promises, making God appear unfaithful.
For these reasons, we must carefully obey 2 Timothy 2:15: rightly divide the word of truth. Blending the programs corrupts the gospel, shakes assurance, and dishonors God's distinct plans.
If there is nothing to divide, why did Paul say to rightly divide the word of truth?
G&P
Therefore, Paul was not preaching another gospel of salvation, but he was entrusted with a new revelation-the mystery of the one Body and the heavenly calling of the church-distinct from Israel's earthly kingdom hope. Both messages center on Christ, but the programs differ: Israel's kingdom under Messiah versus the present grace dispensation where Jew and Gentile are united in Christ.
G&P
However, the progressive revelation and the unique stewardship was given to Paul. Paul refers to "my gospel" ( Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 2:8) and "the revelation of the mystery" hidden from ages past but now revealed ( Ephesians 3:1-9; Colossians 1:25-27). This mystery concerns the formation of the Body of Christ, composed of both Jew and Gentile without distinction, saved by grace through faith apart from works of the Law ( Ephesians 2:8-9). This was not the focus of Peter's message at Pentecost, where the emphasis was still the kingdom offer to Israel ( Acts 2-3), tied to repentance, baptism, and awaiting the promised restoration.
James, writing to the twelve tribes ( James 1:1), indeed addressed believing Jews struggling to live out their faith amid trial. His emphasis on works demonstrated the reality of faith within Israel's kingdom program. Paul, by contrast, ministered to Gentiles under the dispensation of grace, emphasizing justification apart from works ( Romans 3:28). The apparent tension between James 2 and Paul's letters resolves when we rightly divide the Word ( 2 Timothy 2:15), understanding different audiences and dispensational contexts.
see pg2
What was the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah? Thank you.
"As cold waters to a thirsty soul, so is good news from a far countr." Water refreshes a weary soul and whence did it begin is not the point by what does it to the soul. "For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground:"(Isa.44.3; Prov.25.25). The Spirit did not insert this verse but for a purpose. It has relevance here. When God blessed Adam He blessed Eve as well. He sends word through his prophet to Israel and it is heavenly Jerusalem, " I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring." God's good news has only one focus and the writer to the Hebrews refers to the time when God presented his first begotten Son he told all the angels thus, 'worship ye him.' From the vision of Zechariah we read the angel, "spake unto me, saying, Behold, these that go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north country."(Zech.6.8) God has chosen Zion and it is forever. Forever is a tag applied to his Jesus Christ who is the fulfilment of the Word, "For the LORD hath chosen Zion; He hath desired it for his habitation. This is my rest for ever: Here will I dwell; for I have desired it."(Ps.132.13-14)
"And a river went out of Eden to water the garden." This river beginning from Eden flows till the very end of the God document. (Rev.22.1) The tree of life as seen by St John is makes the river make a one full turn.. So the garden is set as a microcosm of the world of the Spirit. Just as Jesus assures his disciples, "And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me."(Lk.22.29) . The Word circular makes one circuit and the throne of God and of the Lamb is a clear validation of the Lamb slain in his divine Will is the Law." for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem."(Isa.2.3) River has a secondary meaning to give the divine quality of mercy its vividness. Daniel's vision illustrates heart of man has access to it. Dan.12.5-7
I am so glad to see you back with us! I have missed you and your input here.
Thanks for you contribution to this discussion prompted by Lbooth insisting that there are two gospels.
The Council of Jerusalem ( Acts 15) clearly shows that both Paul and the 12 apostles preached the same gospel of salvation through grace by faith apart from depending on any works to justify any person.
Reading this account without the lens of dispensationalism brings us to understand that Paul and the other apostles agreed that all were preaching the one true gospel.
Was Paul preaching a different gospel than the other apostles?
1 Cor 15:1-11
V1-2. 1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
...
V8-9. 8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
...
V11.Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
If you read the whole paragraph carefully you will get an answer to your question.
Finally James addresses his epistle to all those of the twelve tribes who have already believed in Christ, giving advices on how to live their christian lives properly. He is not addressing it to non-believers. If he did then there would be no need to include his epislte into the New Testament. Similarly Paul addresses his epistle to Hebrews to Hebrew believers, trying to make a connection between OT and NT. That was the main problem for the Jew born christians at that time who struggled to bridge Moses with Christ.
Works or Grace? Works reveal a true faith. True faith means a "working" faith. That is a working christian life. Which produces works of faith. If those don't exist then that faith is considered as a dead faith. Because it doesn't save. Simply because it means that a person who believed and was saved by Christ is not willing to obey God's commandments and consequently he is unwilling to change (as an example see the parable of the Sower, 3rd case)
Matthew 7:21, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven"
GBU
The King James Bible contains four Gospel books-Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. But while those four books record Christ's earthly ministry, we must not confuse the written accounts with the distinct gospel messages revealed through Scripture. A "gospel" simply means good news, and God has revealed different good news at different times for different audiences.
Christ and the twelve apostles preached the Gospel of the Kingdom ( Matt. 4:23; Matt. 9:35), the good news that Israel's promised kingdom was at hand. This gospel called Israel to repentance, baptism, and obedience, rooted in their covenants and prophetic hope. Peter continued this in early Acts ( Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19-21), offering Israel the kingdom if they would repent nationally.
But with Israel's rejection, the risen Lord revealed through Paul a new gospel for a new dispensation: the Gospel of the Grace of God ( Acts 20:24; Rom. 2:16). This was not tied to Israel's covenants but to the finished cross-work of Christ. Paul's message was that Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day ( 1 Cor. 15:1-4). Salvation was now apart from the Law and works, freely offered to Jew and Gentile alike, forming the Body of Christ.
Looking forward, Revelation 14:6-7 speaks of the Everlasting Gospel during the Tribulation, a message calling all nations to fear God and worship Him before His wrath is poured out.
So dispensationally, while the KJV Bible has four Gospel accounts as books, there are multiple gospels as messages: the Kingdom gospel for Israel, the Grace gospel for the Body of Christ, and the Everlasting gospel in prophecy. To mix these is to confuse God's distinct programs for Israel and the Church. Anyone who misses this simple division is overlooking the plain teaching of rightly dividing the Word of truth ( 2 Tim. 2:15).
G&P
1 John 2:27
"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."
Blessings
Psalms 119:19 "I am a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me."
Psalms 119:20 "My soul breaketh for the longing that it hath unto thy judgments at all times."
Psalms 119:21 "Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed, which do err from thy commandments."
Blessings
Christ is omnipresent and not bound by the limits of time or space. When Jesus promised in Matthew 28:20, "lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world," He declared His constant presence with every believer, no matter where they are. David proclaimed in Psalm 139:7-10, "Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." This eternal reality points us to Christ as God in the flesh ( 1 Timothy 3:16), unlimited in His power and presence.
When Jesus walked the earth, His physical body was localized, but after His resurrection and glorification, He transcended all limitations. In John 14:18, He promised, "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." This is fulfilled through His Spirit indwelling each believer ( Colossians 1:27, Romans 8:9-10). At the same time, He intercedes at the right hand of God ( Hebrews 7:25), proving He can be present in heaven and in the hearts of His people simultaneously.
Christ Himself said in Matthew 18:20, "where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Paul declared in Galatians 2:20, "Christ liveth in me." Yet John also saw Him walking among the seven churches ( Revelation 1:13). These passages show that Christ is not confined but active everywhere at once.
This truth is a source of comfort: He hears the cry of the saint in a prison cell, strengthens the missionary across the seas, and walks beside you today. Truly, He is Emmanuel, "God with us" ( Matthew 1:23), never distant, never absent, always present to guide, comfort, and uphold His people.
G&P
Repentance and baptism were necessary for Israel in view of the kingdom promises ( Acts 2:38; Mark 1:4). John preached "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand," because that was God's prophetic requirement for Israel's restoration. But Paul later made plain that salvation in this present dispensation is not through ritual or law, but solely through faith in Christ's finished work-His death, burial, and resurrection ( 1 Cor. 15:1-4; Eph. 2:8-9). He even said, "Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel" ( 1 Cor. 1:17). Repentance today is a change of mind toward God and faith in the cross, not a national covenantal turning with baptismal cleansing.
As to the 1,000-year reign of Christ, dispensationalists maintain the Church will not remain on earth. The Body of Christ will be caught up at the rapture ( 1 Thess. 4:13-18), delivered from the coming wrath ( 1 Thess. 1:10). During the Millennium, Christ reigns from Jerusalem over Israel and the nations ( Zech. 14:9; Rev. 20:1-6), fulfilling the promises to Abraham and David. Meanwhile, the Church occupies its heavenly inheritance, seated with Christ in glory ( Eph. 2:6).
G&P
Many today claim that John Nelson Darby in the 1800s was the originator of dispensationalism, yet the truth is much older. The Apostle Paul himself was the first to set forth the truths of dispensations. In Ephesians 3:2, Paul speaks directly of "the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward." He further declares that the mystery of Christ-hidden from ages and generations-was revealed to him ( Ephesians 3:3-9; Colossians 1:25-27). These are not man's inventions but divine revelations entrusted to Paul by the risen Lord.
Darby may have revived and systematized these doctrines in his day, but Paul was the original steward. It was Paul who first divided prophecy from mystery, Israel's promises from the Body of Christ, law from grace. He wrote, "Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things" ( 2 Timothy 2:7). Paul is the one who instructs us to rightly divide the Word of truth ( 2 Timothy 2:15). Long before Darby, Paul testified that God had committed to him the dispensation for this age and that he was made a pattern for those who would afterward believe ( 1 Timothy 1:16).
We may appreciate men like Darby, Scofield, or others who helped organize and explain these truths for later generations, but they did not create them. They simply pointed back to the original apostle to the Gentiles. If one desires to see the first true dispensationalist, we need not look to the 19th century but rather to the pages of the New Testament. Paul stands as the chosen vessel through whom God revealed His program for this present age of grace. And if one chooses to disagree, let it be known that it is not Darby you resist but the very Word of God itself-and that responsibility rests on you.
G&P
I would like prayer for peace in my home, and for me to find the right job for me. I would also like prayer for restoration for my marriage, in Jesus name.
First off, my apologies to you for misunderstanding your question. When I read the question, I had no idea that it had anything to do with the rapture or the teachings of the Plymouth Brethren Assembly. I have zero knowledge of this assembly or what they teach. One thing I do agree with you on is that if you are in any fellowship, regardless of where it is, and they are teaching things contrary to scripture, you are absolutely right to leave that fellowship.
Lastly, I wish to thank you for sharing Galatians 3:26-29, although I am not sure how this passage applies to the original question asked? It is a great section of scripture that speaks about spiritual baptism.
1 Corinthians 12:13 tells us that we've all been baptized by one Spirit into the body of Christ. It's another phrase for the Spirit of God coming into a person's life. It represents cleansing and identification.
Galatians 3:28 tells us that we (those who have been born of God's Spirit) are all one in Christ Jesus. Isn't that great! We are all one in Christ Jesus, something we should all keep in mind whenever we have disagreements with one another.
Blessings!
God is a Spirit so life from God shall carry on both fronts. Please read as
"God is a Spirit so life from God Adam shall carry on both fronts"
Thanks,
God is a Spirit so life from God shall carry on both fronts. In him (Jesus Christ) was life. So when he raised Lazarus we shall understand life as understood by flesh and the spirit has different emphases. " He (Lazarus) had lain in the grave four days already." The Word was God and it was He who gave the Son to have life in himself. "For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself."( Jn 5.26) He died once for all but the Word is Power of God. "Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it."( Acts 2.24). This Word made Jesus Christ as the word become flesh works by faith which is one, "And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power."(1 Cor.6.14);
v.7. " and the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Coming back to the creation of Adam the breath of life has the power of God or the Word to be specific. so calling Adam entailed Eve and her seed of promise. Eve was as yet in Adam. The same power that raised up Lazarus works here. Breath of life made Adam as a double for hs Son. The same stewardship enshrined in the Covenant specified 'after our image and after our likeness' (1.28). A microcosm of this world is set in the soul of man and it is called the inner man. It has upper limit of the Spirit as well of the body, made of dust of the ground nevertheless sanctified by God.
v.8 "And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed."
As the double for the Son who is a sign connects Adam and his world. To recap the word circular has Adam, the son of God.(Lk.3.38) The Word was God, the Word which was with God to which both Jesus and Adam are admissible. As steward His creation also is left under his care.
The Spirit names Eden significance of which is same as the face on which God can interface with Man. The river is not seasonal rain.