Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 190

West Angeles Los Angeles California COGIC SUNDAY SCHOOL BOOK 03/09/2025 John 14:15-26 KJV

My COGIC WORSHIP: 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

I Worship a God that is Holy,Word,life and resurrection.God that saves.God of obedience to listen.God of love one to another.

Two witnesses-2

Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.-(Ps.19.2)

God leading the Israelites by pillar of cloud by day is a witness as the pillar of fire is. They testify the gospel of salvation and for those who reject it testifies damnation. Thus two witnesses create enemies who are called sons of perdition. "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."(Rev.11.7) The angels serving God,- for God made angels spirits and his ministers a flame of fire, are the two witnesses. So what St John refers as their power to shut rain shall have man at the other end, "These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will."(11.6) Moses, Elijah and great many who serve the Lord do so for the glory of God. Against them who resist are the sons of Belial."Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith."(2 Tim.3.8)

How does this apply to Israel? Thy do not enter into the Law of the Spirit where Jesus Christ is the Fulfillment, the earth that abides forever.(Eccle.1.4) God tells Moses. "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:/And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation."(Exod.19.5-6; 1.Pet.2.9) In rejecting Jesus Israel rejected the divine Will: "The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek."(Ps.110.4) He was the priest of the most High as well as the king of Salem. He blessed Abraham to validate the Law which is of the Covenant and of the Spirit. What is not planted by God shall be uprooted under the Old or New .

Two witnesses-1

'The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork'.(Ps.19.1-2)

God is Spirit. Glory of God delineated by the word therefore is spiritually understood so his handiwork Earth shall consequently has spiritual significance.

God framed the worlds by his word so the glory of God is in terms of his Will, a world unseen but the firmament serves as a testimony, and it is thus God gave an angel the revelation of Jesus Christ. The visions of St John and Ezekiel are examples and the firmament serves as a glass which endues every heart, a spiritual space to know this glory, "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." (2 Cor.3.18)

Here is a verse: "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."(Rev.11.8) What Jerusalem as a geographical name is interchangeable with places where God made his glory manifest.The angel went the whole Egypt at night. He judged Sodom as he judged Egypt. "And there came two angels to Sodom at even." God sent His witnesses to deliver Lot and his family for Abraham's sake; as He sent pillars of cloud and pillars of fire to lead the Israelites, "And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:/ He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people."(Exod.13.21-22 The same fire and cloud associated with the living creatures. Testimony of Jesus Christ as the Word become flesh. What the firmament testifies is the Law of the Spirit which has a command number Seven. Judgment meted out to the disobedient in the book of revelation, consequently presented in the form of seven angels.

Hello Richard.

Yes Luke 3:8 that mentions fruits worthy of repentance shows that repentance is a way of thinking, living, facing life, not just a mere feeling of regret.

Now, I wouldn't agree to present God as an angry God. Definitely we must talk to people about the consequences of unbelief. That hell is very serious thing, it is not a weekend trip to a bad place but a horrible eternity away from God in the lake of fire.

Not everybody comes to Christ for the same reason. Others come to God because of fear of death or hell, others because they are looking for God, others for healing or solution to a serious problem, others are looking for freedom from a sin or passion etc etc. This is in the begining. But as we spend time near God and start understanding His character and His love for us and what He has done for us, then we are attracted to Him by His love for us. And God uses this method often. He gives various gifts to people to draw us to Him and then He gradually reveals His true character to us, God is Love. And He expects us to love Him back. The first and most important commandement is to love God with all yourself. But one can not do that if they don't understand His character and if one never gets anything from God.

Is a man drawn to God because they are regenerated first OR one is regenerated first and thus they are drawn to God? Difficult question. There are good arguments on both sides. Was Paul regenerated before Jesus appeared to him in his way to Damascus? Honestly, I do not think so. But what I can tell is that God often uses specific methods to approach a person whom He knows they will believe. Methods that He may never use for a person who will never believe. But often He does that latter thing. So what we can say for sure is that we can not place God in a pattern. It seems that God alters His methods according to whom He deals with, believers or unbelievers.

Thanks for your comment. GBU

And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say,(Rev.6.6)

This voice comes from the midst of four connects the vision of St John with that of Ezekiel. "And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings." (Ezek.1.25) This is from throne while the four living creatures moved straight. "When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they turned not when they went."(1.17)

Besides the voice there were lightening "As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning."(v.13) Ezekiel's vision connects with the throne,"And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God."(Rev.4.5). The seven lamps signify the Law of the Spirit went up and down among the living creature. Thus we have the voice of the Lord God whose will is being fulfilled and the Law also multi-tasking with the four living creatures. Now consider the waters, "And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host." (1.25) This noise of great waters we have in the vision of St John. "And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters... and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. "(Rev.1.15-16)Glory of the risen Christ is same as of God, 'so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord.' In short the firmament is the looking glass casting the glory of gospel,"hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."2 Cor.4.6;Ps.19.1

Dear !DLHenri,

Thanks for the update. I am continuing in prayer for Arthur.

It is incredible that case workers cannot find safe place for him to be released to. May God's mercy be effective in his life and situation.

"Four corners"

"I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth"(Rev.7.1)

Four corners of the earth is not according to geography of nations with boundaries and distinct features dotting across the globe but according to the worlds framed by the word of God.(Heb.11.3)

So Ezekiel's vision explains "behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire./Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures."they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward."(Ezek.1.4-9) Mind you heaven or the Will of God above and the earth below. The whirlwind coming out of the north denotes judgment and the throne such as the prophet describes in vv.26-27 "And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. The Law of the Spirit as seen in the inaugural vision of St John. This likeness points forward to the risen Christ as the Spirit in the night vision of Daniel refers to Christ, 'behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.'

The cloud and the fire infolding itself (v.4) we see in the pillars of cloud and of the fire leading the Israelites. The four angels serving the will of God is fulfilling the Law of the Spirit. "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament." (Rev.11.19) Mount Sion and the 144,000 are above the firmament. " And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings."(Ezek.1.25)

Tribulation-2

"And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,"(Rev.7.1-2 ) Compare v.2 "with And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." This is the sign for all the tribes of the earth meaning the nation of Israel and the Gentiles alike.

"For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together." The eagles or vultures are carrion birds and they have tasks to do. They have been entrusted with man and blessed as well.(Gen.1.28) Because of his fall His creation also suffers,. As St Paul says,"Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."(Rom.8.19-21). Flesh of the kings signifies the glory 'That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men,"(Rev.19.18)

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (24.31)Glorious liberty of the children of God or the elect is not what Israel can claim. They are judged by Law of sin and death. For this reason we have command number 10.

This shall explain the sealing of 144,000. They are the left-behind church where according to the Gospel preached ("And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings"- Rev.10.10-11)This body of the elect redeem themselves by stepping into the bread of Israel as a nation cast out. In this they are Seth-like and the Word become flesh who was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. Between the first and the second gathering of souls there is a lapse of time.

Tribulation-1

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days "Mt.24.29

When did tribulation as a theological concept oriignate? With the fall of man and the curse of God taking its course so we have this enmity of 'between thy seed and her seed'. It implies the Advent of the Son who manifested to destroy the works of the devil."He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."( 1 Jn 3.8) Satan is destroyed as mentioned in Rev.20.10) Tribulation is spread across for the sake of the elect. This is dependent on the everlasting Covenant drawn up in seven days' Ge.1-2.1-3)

The Law of the Spirit accordingly sets the judgment and books are opened. (Dan.7.10) What we have in the last book is the Revelation of Jesus Christ and it is set in motion by the Lamb slain who is declared worth to open the book which is bound with seven seals mind you, it is closed. God does not judge anyone but has left it altogether in his hands. Thus the series of sevens beginning with Ch.5 is to be seen as determined "And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.(Rev.5.1)

And who executes the word of God? It is in mid-heaven. "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree./And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,"(Rev.7.1-2)

Four river-heads mentioned in Gen.2 four winds of the earth and four corners is about the tabernacle for the Sun meaning it is the world of the flesh and blood. Four is the Command number for the word of God, the word become flesh.

Jesse,

In non-essentials charity and in essential unity, to paraphrase, St Augustinian. So I leave it at that., with greetings,

(1 Timothy Part 9):

1 Timothy 2:12 - But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Two things: I do not allow a woman to teach. There's one. It doesn't say anything about men. Nor, to usurp authority over the man, which is why they shouldn't teach. The term usurp authority over the man, usurp authority is the word authenticate. It means that the woman is not to take the authenticity of man, what the male was created to do.

In the church, God has raised up the men to do the praying and the doctrinal teaching. We find out in Titus that the women are to take the younger women and teach them how to keep their home and love their husband and raise their children. A woman is not to teach, nor to take the authenticity of man, don't take over for him, but to be in silence. That's just what he said. They are to learn in silence.

1 Timothy 3:1 - This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Paul starts out by saying this is a true saying, and the word true is the word faithful. This is a faithful saying. Paul uses that phrase several times in his letters. The reason he does is because they had no New Testament in those times. Whenever they talked about the scriptures, it was always the Old Testament, or the Tanak, the Hebrew scripture.

Here is something I would like to share before going through this chapter. In Verses 1 through 7, we have the instruction concerning overseers. The King James text uses the word bishop. And the word is EPISKOPOS, where we get our word Episcopalian from. EPI is over, and SKOPOS is to scope (to see). So, he's an EPI-over SKOPOS-seer. He's an overseer.

In Acts Chapter 20, the overseer is also interchangeable with elder and with pastor. The overseer is the head officer in the church. And that's what he is responsible for. He is responsible for the overseeing of the church, to make sure it functions in the order that God has it in.

(1 Timothy Part 8b):

1 Timothy 2:9 Contiued:

Well, he's talking to women to become sober in your thinking. Think the way God thinks. See it the way God sees it. If not, then your mind is being influenced by some kind of "mental alcohol" that comes from the world.

Then he says not with broided, or braided hair. Now here's where the legalists get into this. Sometimes you'll see groups that are different from other religious groups because they follow this. This has to do with that in those times, the women would braid their hair and then wrap it up into what used to be called a "beehive," and then they would weave jewelry in and out of it. And then they would go to church. Now, do you think you would notice them?

But you see, that's the whole point here. With braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly garments. But be presentable in that which becomes women who profess godliness that they belong to God, through good works. The word good is spiritual good. In essence, what he's saying is don't be a distraction. Don't try to "gussy" yourself up to look your absolute best so that people would notice you.

On the other hand, don't try to dress as lousy as you can so that people notice you. People are going to notice you and be distracted from the purpose of being there, which is to learn of the Lord and worship Him and have fellowship together.

(1 Timothy Part 8a):

1 Timothy 2:9 - In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

There's a lot packed into this verse so I think I'll skip it. No, just kidding! I'll try my best to break this one down and share with you, my understanding.

In like manner also, meaning as the men were to raise holy hands, so women are to be holy in like manner. That women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety;

To adorn means to dress, and in the Greek text, it's the word for cosmetics. To put on an appearance would be a good general description of what he's saying here. In modest apparel. That is something that's orderly, acceptably, decent. In modest apparel, with shamefacedness. That's an old English word representing the Greek word that has to do with orderly or Godly fear.

Something we don't have in our culture today is shamefacedness, people who are ashamed of the clothes that they wear out in public. It's the old "Everybody does it, who cares?" And you would think that they would be self-conscious, but they're not. This has to do with a fear of God, let alone an embarrassment with people. Modest apparel with Godly fear, and sobriety, and this has nothing to do with alcohol. It's the Greek word for mental sobriety.

The arguments that we get back against such a teaching as this comes from our culture. People whose minds have been drunk with some kind of philosophy that says "Oh, you holier than thou people," talking about the way people dress.

(1 Timothy Part 7):

1 Timothy 2:8 - I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Therefore I will, and that's the word BOULOMAI. I council (determine), that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and without doubting. The emphasis of the text is men. Specifically, Paul uses the word that means male, a man, not people but a man. In the public assembly of the church, men are to do the praying.

Secondly, they are to pray lifting up holy hands. Some of you may have seen people praising or praying with their hands up. This is one of the texts that they use. Well, it's actually a Hebraism that has to do with when you pray, make sure that your hands are clean. You either do good things or bad things with your hands. In other words, don't have dirty hands when you pray.

You have a clean conscience and open conscience to God, because it explains what it means, with holy hands, that are without wrath and without doubting. Anger is wrath, and doubting against God. So, you must be holy. And it must be men in the public assembly of the church.

(1 Timothy Part 6):

1 Timothy 1:16 - Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

The word longsuffering, MAKROTHUMIA, means slow in human reaction. If it's from God, it means slow in reaction of judgment. Paul is presenting himself as saying the only reason that God saved me is because I was the worst of sinners, and by having mercy on me, God could show just how long He goes with people before He brings judgment, and how much mercy He has on people that call out for mercy, and how much His grace is poured out with faith and love which belongs to Christ.

1 Timothy 1:19 - Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

Here, Paul shares what is called a Modal Participle. It describes for us what it means to fight the good warfare. Holding faith, and a good conscience; Continually hold onto faith in Christ, and a good conscience before God. That's all you have to worry about. You don't have to worry about how people are going to treat you. You stand up for the Lord and you stand up for the truth.

Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith they have made shipwreck: Some people's confession of faith in Christianity, they've made a shipwreck out of it.

1 Timothy 2:7 - Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, I am not lying;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and in verity. That's the word truth. So, he says this is the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles, no matter who they are, that Christ died for your sins. If you'll turn to him, you'll come to know the truth.

Thank you for those wonderful Scriptures, Steve421, reminding us that from the very first Book to the last, God's Mercy & Love are clearly seen & available to all who would turn to Him in Truth & Faith, through His One & only Provision in Jesus. Available to all, but so so many would spurn that offer for their soul's salvation, & sadder still, many never hearing about this life-saving message. We have been so blessed to have this Gospel constantly working in our lives - may we never shirk this great privilege of sharing it with all who would give of their time to listen.

Is our soul or spirit immortal?

Part 1

In Christianity, the belief in the immortality of the soul has been influenced by ancient Greek philosophy, especially the teachings of two notable philosophers, Socrates and Plato. This philosophy views death as the separation of the soul from the body. Plato described the body as a prison for the soul and saw death as a means of freeing the soul.

This philosophy of death started blending in the church in the second-third century, some saying the good souls go to heaven, but the bad souls go to hell. Augustine of Hippo, a theologian and philosopher who was made a saint, held this philosophy, strongly influencing the doctrines in the church in the fourth and early fifth centuries, and later John Calvin taught it.

Some interpret 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 to mean that when we die, we go to be present with the Lord. This interpretation is also linked to Ecclesiastes 12:6-7, this is not dependent on salvation, all human spirits, regardless if the person is saved or not, return to God because the spirit in man comes from God, Job 32:8, Zachariah 12:1.

The soul: The Bible does not teach that the soul is immortal, but in Ezekiel 18:20, all souls are God's, and the soul that sinneth shall die, in Matthew 10:28, hell is the Word Gehenna which refers to the Lake of Fire. As written in the Bible, in Genesis 2:7, when God formed Adam out of the dust of the ground and with the breath of life from God, Adam became a living soul, that is all of Adam, the complete identity of Adam, including consciousness, desires, and emotions.

When God breathed into Adam the breath of life, and he became a living soul/being. The Hebrew word for soul is nephesh, which means a breathing creature, not a spiritual entity. It can describe a person's soul, life, mind, will, and even our body, not one thing, but the whole of the person, the true self. 1 Peter 3:20, eight souls were saved. Acts 2:43, Romans 13:1

See part 2

Is our soul or spirit immortal?

Part 2

The Bible consistently indicates that souls can die and cease to exist. For example, Matthew 10:28, it mentions that the soul can be destroyed, implying it is not immortal. The Greek word translated as soul is psuche, which has several meanings, including the vital breath, the breath of life, the human soul, the soul as the seat of affections and will, consciousness, a human person. Essentially, it includes who we are, and is inseparable.

This does not happen until we are resurrected, when Jesus Christ returns, it is a gift of God, Romans 2:5-7. Immortality is not given until the resurrection from the dead, only then will we be absent from this flesh and blood body and present with the Lord, Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 20:1-6. The Bible never describes the soul of man as immortal or eternal. We die and are buried mortal, dead in corruption, and we will be raised incorruptible, 1 Corinthians 15:42-44. Every part of us is mortal, and we must put on immortality, 1 Corinthians 15:52-54.

The spirit: The spirit is the breath of life given to us by God, in Luke 25:46 Jesus said to His Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit. In Acts 7:59, Stephen said Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. The spirit empowers us to experience God's profound love, it is through the spirit that we are empowered to live according to the ways of God, embracing righteousness and walking in His ways, in God's Spirit, the Holy Spirit, rather than walking in the ways of the world.

Our spirit is how we communicate with God, Job 32:8, Proverbs 20:27, John 4:24, 1 Corinthians 2:10-12. God inspires or motivates us by stirring up the spirit in a person, 1 Chronicles 5:25-26. God inspired King Cyrus to issue a decree, allowing the Jews to return to Jerusalem, Ezra 1:1.

See part 3

Is our soul or spirit immortal?

Part 3

This spirit is not the person, nor is it immortal or eternal, nor does it have a conscious existence when the person dies. Those of us who have the Holy Spirit in us, Romans 8:11, But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you, this is the Spirit of God, for those in Jesus Christ, this happens at resurrection.

In Psalms 16:7 David said the LORD has given him counsel; this is his spirit communicating with God, as Paul calls it in 2 Corinthians 4:16 the inward man. Peter describes it as the hidden man of the heart, 1 Peter 3:4. When God communicates with us, it is not with our mind; it's a Spirit-to-spirit communication.

God gives the human a spirit, some believe it is at conception, Zechariah 12:1, Isaiah 12:5. We know He takes it back at the time of death, Ecclesiastes 12:7. Psalm 104:29, thou takest away their breath, they die, the Hebrew word for breath is ruach, it also means spirit. James 2:26, the body without the spirit is dead. All consciousness ends when we die. Psalm 6:5, Job 14:12-14, Job 17:13-16. Psalm 115:17. Ecclesiastes 9:5-10. We sleep in death until resurrection day, the day of redemption. 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15.

The Bible tells us a spirit can be good, bad, or broken, Psalm 34:18, God cares for us and wants to help mend our brokenness, Isaiah 41:10. When we do not have rule over our spirit, we can go so bad that God turns one over to a reprobate mind as we see in Romans 1:18-32, the door is shut. With God's Spirit, the Holy Spirit, we in our spirit grow in our faith and have comfort in His presence.

See part 4

Is our soul or spirit immortal?

Part 4

Many people interpret Luke 16:19-31, the story of the rich man and Lazarus, as a literal account rather than a parable. However, in Mark 4:11 and Luke 8:10, Jesus explicitly states that He spoke to others in parables. We must consider the entirety of Scripture when evaluating this story, as I have referenced only a few relevant passages.

If this story were literal, it would imply that individuals receive their rewards immediately after death. This notion contradicts the rewards are given after the resurrection, as indicated in Revelation 22:12, Luke 14:13-14, 2 Timothy 4:8, and 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, along with what we see in Revelation 20:4.

What was the purpose of this story? Is it our choices, what we have faith in, God, or do we crave wealth, or do we have faith, and charity, 1 Corinthians 13:1-13. This story shows the rich man rich in worldly things, but poor in morality, and Lazarus the opposite. This story also points to Jesus' death and resurrection, Luke 16:31. We see that is what happened, they still rejected Jesus after He was hung on a cross and died, put in a tomb, rose from the grave, and spoke to them for 40 days, and it did not convince them.

See part 5

Is our soul or spirit immortal?

Part 5

In Revelation 6:9-11, John is shown a vision of the souls of those who were slain for the word of God, the altar symbolizes the place of sacrifice and martyrdom, they are told to rest until their fellow servants are killed in the same way. This is a vision, as we see many in Revelation, it does not depict literal people's souls under the altar.

Another vision shown to Peter, James, and John on the mountain when Jesus was transfigured before them, Matthew 17:1-9. Jesus is the firstfruits of them that slept, and this is before Jesus was crucified. If Moses and Elijah/Elias were physically there, Jesus would not be the firstborn from the dead. Jesus told them not to tell this vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. The Greek word for vision is horama, the term horama refers to a supernatural vision or sight, often given by God to convey a message or revelation.

God bless,

RLW

Bennymkje,

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you on this one. When Paul spoke about the rapture of the church in 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4, he was not referring to the words of Jesus spoken in Matthew Chapter 24. Matthew 24:31 is a prophecy taken from Isaiah 27:12-13 which is also a prophecy that the Jews looked for, that one day, God is going to gather them (the Jews) together from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other, north, south, east, and west. It has nothing to do with the rapture of the church.

You are correct in saying that "Collecting from four winds cannot be like a bird pouncing on a mouse." I agree with you on that, and that's why I wasn't referring to Jesus' words in Matthew Chapter 24 in my example. I was using it as an example of believers being snatched up from this earth and carried away. If you feel that it was a bad example, then so be it, I'm perfectly okay with that. I don't expect you or anyone else to agree with everything I post. Perhaps your example of Elijah would have been more appropriate to use, so thank you for mentioning Elijah. And of course I would include Enoch also.

If I may just respond to a couple of things, you say that "The Spirit always supplies instances to guide you." My response to that is yes, He does, and He has! You also seem to insinuate that either I'm relying on the Vulgate, or my Greek is inappropriate, and that I might be suggesting that St Paul's Greek was at fault. Well, I do not know Latin, and if I were to compare my knowledge of Greek to the Apostle Paul's, then yes, my Greek would be seen as inappropriate. I'm not sure if there's anyone on this forum whose knowledge of Greek could stand in comparison to Paul's, definitely not mine! No, I am not placing blame anywhere, and yes, we are to follow the Spirit's leading as we approach God's word.

We are at a disagreement with each other on this and I see no need to drag this one out. Again, may the Lord continue to bless you abundantly!

Jesse,

The passage you quote " For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:/ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds" ( 1 Thess 4.16-17)St Paul is referring to the words of Jesus "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Collecting from four winds cannot be like a bird pouncing on a mouse or some other but in the manner Elijah was taken up in vortex of the whirlwind, more of a tornado in effect. Compare Elijah's ascent,' when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind'(2 Kgs.2.1). The Spirit always supplies instances to guide you. In the Parable of the Tares,"and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."(Mt.13.30) No where we have instance to indicate the manner as you describe. It is the Power of God so there is majesty and glory the word as well. Either relying Vulgate or your Greek is inappropriate. I would not go as far as to suggest St Paul's Greek was at fault. In whichever case you shall see how absurd it is to go by literal words. Do not blame KJV or other versions but without following the Spirit's leading you are led into scriptural minefield as well as like-minded others.

Regi,

I will be praying for you always. You are so strong, and I pray that you will continue to be strong, God will get you through this.

cont. The Gospel - Part 2

Galatians 3:14 - That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Galatians 3:16 - Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Revelation 4:11 - Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Revelation 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

Revelation 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

Revelation 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

The Gospel - Part 1

Genesis 3:15 - And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Genesis 12:3 - And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 22:18 - And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Jeremiah 31:33 - But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Mark 12:29-31 - And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30, And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31, And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Acts 17:11 - These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

1 Corinthians 13:13 - And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 - Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2, By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3, For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4, And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Keeping you and yours in my prayers.

God is so good and He cares for us. We can cast all of our cares upon Him every day and in every circimstance.

Dear C

I will be praying for you and your family.

My own family is very divided with many issues that, for some, go back decades and decades. They do not wish to believe in our Lord and Savior to receive the grace that will heal their minds, soul, and relationships.

So, I do know somewhat how you may be feeling and requesting prayer. Whatever others may feel or act in a relationship, you can lean on Christ to guide you in the best way to behave in family relationships.

Thanks for sharing your request with us.

Jesse,

An answer is always welcome but I simply gave two verses to think over. I have my own platform where I post passages from the Bible. So that leaves little time for anything else. I happen to treat the word of God very earnestly so I go through the forum whenever I can. Not that all are edifying. But I learn as well.

I posted two passage not to force them to fit into your topic of 'rapture' the timing of which no one knows except the Father. Be that as it may, unless it is given from above man cannot enter into what eye has not seen ear has not heard what God has reserved for him. with greetings,

Exodus 32:14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

This verse proves along with some others that the Lord; who is sinless can change His mind based on people's repentance or change of heart. Such subjects get into different aspects of God; His eternal plans and truths stand and of course His heart is perfect and pure. Some of this perhaps can be understood in this time (I won't use the word dispensation) but His patience before inevitable and final judgment when there is no turning back.

I am sure you are aware of verses that state God grants repentance; as mentioned above a change of heart initiates our ability to desire to serve the Lord out of love; not just fear and dread of a just sentence of punishment. Sadly today of course we have a lack of much good preaching such as "Sinners in the hands of an angry God" by Jonathan Edwards. To cry out to a God we know we have offended and has an enmity with unregenerate man should be part of sharing the Gospel; not some way to make people feel they can cozy up to a Holy God based on any merits of their own.

No need to quote the verse you already know about worldly repentance leading to death; and Godly repentance salvation in 2 Cor. 7:10 (roughly translated); I'm sure you know how that applies to Judas Iscariot. Really repentance like salvation is a beginning of something. A believer is sanctified after being saved; and repentance means not turning back and reorienting our whole lives. We have to plan as much as possible to avoid sin; and that means individuals that are bad influences need to be removed from our social life; and replacing our days with things that please the Lord. It includes sins of commission and omission. It means trusting God ( Psalm 37:4) to meet our desires and needs in His timing rather than trusting in our own understanding.

Luke 3:8 mentions fruits worthy of repentance. I'm glad the Lord supplies all our need for that task.

Agape. RP